Why is it criminalized for a non-top man to not want an overweight woman?

[phineas]

Right. I don't know why he even says it. It seems he tends to go for girls in their early 20s because they are "more innocent" and usually don't have the "life experience" of girls in their late 20s/early 30s.

 

I find it damaging though that he's banking on girls not being able to tell how old he is off the bat.

 

He has said the same things in the past with "they won't know I have no friends because I won't tell them." Yeah but the closer they get to you, the more they will know about you. If they never get close, you'll never have a shot at becoming their BF.

 

Kind of a catch-22.... which is why we always tell SD81 to improve on other aspects of his life. Then he wouldn't have to be so insecure.

 

These days, early 20's is the hook-up culture.

 

Yeah an LS'r in their early 20's can show up & say "i'm not like that" but, I can point out 10 who are like that at any random bar.

 

Early 20's does not equal innocence.

[Kamille]

Right. So does the reverse logic work? All I need to do to get a top man is not be overweight? (Does anyone have George Clooney's number?)

 

The premise of this thread is entirely flawed. The reason you're not dating 'women you deserve' is because you're not putting yourself out there.

 

Try it. Try being playful and flirtatious with the world out there. Fail and fall on your face a few times. It's happened to all of us (even women!). In fact, the people who are most successful in dating / relationships / picking up are probably the ones who've learned to see past their fear of rejection.

 

Put yourself out there and then we can talk about what kind of 'women you deserve'.

[xxoo]

for them it was a case of, well you have been single over a year, she's been single over a year = match off.

 

It's really as simple as that.

 

As a man who is not "in demand" (involuntarily single for years), no one is going to set you up with an "in demand" woman. They'll introduce you to women who have had their own struggles finding a date.

 

If you don't like that reality, you need to do the work that will make you more "in demand".

[GoodOnPaper]

To answer your question:

 

A man who's dateworthiness ranks at a 5 should stick with a woman who's dateworthiness also ranks at a 5.

 

While this advice seems to make sense if you are on the outside looking in, for those of us on the inside it gives the impression that we should go for women that we think are mediocre -- and that is not particularly motivating. Is mediocre attraction to and from our partner really the best we can hope for? Can the connection and intimacy between two "5s" be such that each partner feels like a "10"? THAT'S what you have to follow up this advice with. When we see an LS post from a woman who is excited about dating someone new, almost everything is about how "hot" he is. I certainly can't imagine my wife blathering on like that about me. What kind of initial spark can there be between two "5s" that can compare?

[xxoo]

Can the connection and intimacy between two "5s" be such that each partner feels like a "10"? THAT'S what you have to follow up this advice with. When we see an LS post from a woman who is excited about dating someone new, almost everything is about how "hot" he is. I certainly can't imagine my wife blathering on like that about me. What kind of initial spark can there be between two "5s" that can compare?

 

Yes, two average people can have sparks off the charts.

 

Do you really believe that everyone one posting here, talking about hot sex and hot dates, is beautiful?

 

Check out the OW board sometime, and all the women there who tolerate being a married man's side action, because it is the "best sex of my life"....and then later read about how the guy is fat, bald, and overweight Sexual chemistry is blind

[verhrzn]

No more than it's "criminalized" for women to have a preference for taller guys.

 

Oh... wait, you WANT that to be criminalized. Sometimes it just slips my mind that you think it's quite all right for a guy, regardless of his own flaws, to have high standards, but women, regardless of their own attractiveness level, are not allowed to have any, especially those that would rule out the poor short guys. Tubby women, though, they totally have the rejection coming.

[RiverRunning]

To answer your question:

 

A man who's dateworthiness ranks at a 5 should stick with a woman who's dateworthiness also ranks at a 5.

 

Any number of factors or combination thereof can make someone a 5 (or a 2 or a 10), including being a loser or being physically unattractive.

 

So if you're low on the dateworthiness scale, you shouldn't expect to be dating someone who's high on the dateworthiness scale.

 

 

Star Gazer hit the nail on the HEAD with this one. Being overweight doesn't automatically make you a disgusting creature that no one should ever date just because they happen to be thin.

 

Everyone has a type. But there is a big difference between someone who's, say, 10 to 15 pounds overweight and someone who's carrying an extra 50, an extra 100 or more. I would bet more men are attracted to slightly overweight women than they realize.

 

I do think people need to really evaluate if any person's physical feature is an automatic deal-breaker. I do think that opening up your horizons and dating someone you ordinarily wouldn't date because of their physical appearance, at least for a few dates, could be enough to change your mind. Usually, I think women are better at building physical attraction over time, but I don't think it's something that men should rule out.

 

I'm not talking, "Go wayyy into left field." I'm saying push your horizons a little bit. Date someone who's a little overweight (if you like her besides that).

 

I wasn't immediately attracted to everyone I dated. The last guy actually had a visible deformity (purely aesthetic - not at all functional). Should I have told him he should ONLY date others who had a deformity like his? With time, I actually found it incredibly enticing. I met another man once who shared my ex's name and had the same deformity, and woo was I smitten!

 

The point being: obviously, Somedude, you do feel that you're above overweight women. I'm not going to say that's a good thing or a bad thing, because everyone has preferences and there's always some type of person we feel *above* in the dating spectrum. If the overweight women were physically active and generally ate well, would you reconsider dating her?

[RedRobin]

No more than it's "criminalized" for women to have a preference for taller guys.

 

Oh... wait, you WANT that to be criminalized. Sometimes it just slips my mind that you think it's quite all right for a guy, regardless of his own flaws, to have high standards, but women, regardless of their own attractiveness level, are not allowed to have any, especially those that would rule out the poor short guys. Tubby women, though, they totally have the rejection coming.

 

Verhzn... it seem obvious to me that SD's obsession with weight gets to you.

 

His views, outlook, and tendency towards dating hypocrisy are not anything close to most guys I've met. And I work around ALOT.

 

I'm not sure how reading his posts are doing much for you in terms of coming to a healthy appreciation of your body, skills, personality, and everything else you have to offer. If anything, it chains you to his negative view and those like him. Yes, I know you've heard the phrase 'self-fulfilling prophecy' a million times.

 

Do you really need and want to give men like him that much power over your life?

 

Cause one thing you may or may not be aware of... most people probably continue to post to you because you are an intelligent, insightful and witty young woman.

 

...whom I've read somewhere also happens to have nice breasts.

 

Work that girl. (and think about putting SD on your ignore list)

[LexiB]

I'll start off with this.

 

The first thing I get is that a non-overweight girl is considered unobtainable. Why is that?

 

And then, why should a guy who is lacking in some areas, have to settle for an overweight girl that he may have no attraction to?

 

Is an overweight woman really the equivalent of a no game guy?

 

The way I see it, fat people should only be with fat people. The very fact that I'm not overweight, means that I shouldn't have to settle for a woman who is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption that slim, fit women don't want to date overweight men either.

 

So why is it wrong when men don't want to?

 

 

 

You don't "have" to settle for anyone and there's nothing "wrong" with you not wanting to date someone who's overweight. Thing is, if YOU CAN'T GET the type of woman you want, your options are:

 

1) stand your ground and be alone indefinitely or,

2) expand your dating criteria to include women you CAN date - which may or may not mean those who are a little overweight.

 

You may not like your options, but you have them.

[c0nfused88]

Somedude,

 

I understand where you're coming from-- and like what a lot of people have mentioned I'd like to reiterate that all factors of what people find attractive and what are deal breakers vary drastically from person to person.

 

Personally, I fall into the overweight category and could lose a good 20lbs. However, it is really how you carry your weight. I have plenty of attention for how I look now and also receive many compliments on my personality. A woman can be overweight and wear the right clothes, have the right muscle structure, etc and carry it well. As some have said, men often like women with a little bit of meat-- it's really hard to judge how much someone really weighs.

 

Also, many have mentioned you have issues with height. I'm not sure how tall you are-- but for the record height is not a deal breaker for all women! I'm relatively tall for a woman (near 5'10--imagine with heels-- intimidating!) and I would date a guy who is shorter than me. I know this has been said, but it really is about confidence. I have seen guys I am attracted to or with great personalities but noticed they don't approach me. I think a lot of it has to do with my height and them assuming I'd turn them down. There isn't a bigger turn off than me jogging toward a guy who I think is cute and as we get closer he realizes I'm pretty tall and looks away. I do think it'd drastically change your life if you realize not all women are as shallow as you think.

[Kamille]

I repeat. This "beauty scale bull****" is a futile argument people.

 

SD has convinced himself there's something utterly wrong with him.

 

He allows this distorted belief to control his actions. He has done nothing to try to meet women, regardless of their placement on a scale (pun intended). His pontifications about himself are purely theoretical.

 

This whole thread is a cognitive distortion - and confirming his beliefs that "scales" actually exist only enables him to stay glued to his seat.

[ThaWholigan]

You don't "have" to settle for anyone and there's nothing "wrong" with you not wanting to date someone who's overweight. Thing is, if YOU CAN'T GET the type of woman you want, your options are:

 

1) stand your ground and be alone indefinitely or,

2) expand your dating criteria to include women you CAN date - which may or may not mean those who are a little overweight.

 

You may not like your options, but you have them.

He has the 3rd option of course, which is:

 

PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT!!!!

 

You know, that stuff people do when they try to improve their confidence, self esteem, their social life and overall change their mentality and outlook on the world. Improve their fitness, chase their goals, learn new skills, etc. World being his oyster and all that, and he could do it.

 

But.....

 

He says he can't. He thinks he can't. He BELIEVES he can't. And whenever we all tell him he can, he thinks we're picking on him and plays the victim -_-

 

I promised I'd stay out of this thread as I have nothing more really to add, but I just wanted to quickly make that point.

[zengirl]

I think the thing you get is that not only are you hypocritical but seem to have quite high standards for a guy in his 30s, low experience with women, and sub-par confidence, self-esteem, and social skills.

 

This. I don't care if guys don't want to date whomever they want. Honestly. Some standards kind of gross me out, in a personal way, and make me not want to be around that person (this is true of men and women), depending on how they are described. When people discuss your standards, it's not because you don't date overweight women. (FWIW, I never had any interest in overweight men.) It's because of the way you think about and articulate those standards, who you are and your complaints about your lack of success, and (primarily) your complaints that women are shallow about the way you look -- that's irony and hypocrisy for you!

 

(Btw, I *am* still curious to see what you consider overweight or average, etc, but you don't seem to ever want to posts pics or specifics, despite constantly describing what you want in a woman, physically.)

 

Perhaps a dateworthiness scale should be drawn up for both men and women. It would have to take in physical attractiveness and societal markers as well. For a woman, her body/attractiveness would be weighted higher than her confidence & social skills and vice versa for a man.

 

Cannot be done, as such things are not universal. I'd say people are already using their own rubrics, and they can see where they fall on such a scale by their own experiences. I know many overweight women who have more dating success than you, FWIW. At the end of the day, if we're going to assess it, your dateworthiness is determined by the success you have.

Oh, and you can decide to change that and change it at any moment, too. Many people have!

 

Clearly you need to change something to have success. There have been oh-so-many suggestions given to you, most of which do not require dating fat women. If you want to improve your prospects and get women that you "feel" should be in your league to date you, then you can choose to do so via many means. But what in your league REALLY means is: people you want to date who want to date you.

 

That's another good list of items. And Hokie brought up that for me physical attributes are weighted higher than other aspects.

 

I'm glad someone you listen to finally did -- I cannot remember how many times I said this. THIS is why you will not find a non-shallow woman, however. As one of her standards would probably be a man who does not weight physical attributes very high!

 

No more than it's "criminalized" for women to have a preference for taller guys.

 

Oh... wait, you WANT that to be criminalized. Sometimes it just slips my mind that you think it's quite all right for a guy, regardless of his own flaws, to have high standards, but women, regardless of their own attractiveness level, are not allowed to have any, especially those that would rule out the poor short guys. Tubby women, though, they totally have the rejection coming.

 

Yes, it seems ironic. I am constantly surprised SD can't see the irony in this. FWIW, I think no one should be forced or coerced to date someone who they do not find attractive or who does not meet their desired criteria. Though that may mean they find dating very difficult or remain single.

[ThaWholigan]

This. I don't care if guys don't want to date whomever they want. Honestly. Some standards kind of gross me out, in a personal way, and make me not want to be around that person (this is true of men and women), depending on how they are described. When people discuss your standards, it's not because you don't date overweight women. (FWIW, I never had any interest in overweight men.) It's because of the way you think about and articulate those standards, who you are and your complaints about your lack of success, and (primarily) your complaints that women are shallow about the way you look -- that's irony and hypocrisy for you!

 

I insinuated in another thread that Somedude sometimes articulates himself in a manner that people sometimes read a little too much into. I think he portrays his standards a little higher than they actually are so they just appear that way.

 

 

Cannot be done, as such things are not universal. I'd say people are already using their own rubrics, and they can see where they fall on such a scale by their own experiences. I know many overweight women who have more dating success than you, FWIW. At the end of the day, if we're going to assess it, your dateworthiness is determined by the success you have.

Oh, and you can decide to change that and change it at any moment, too. Many people have!

 

Agree with all of this.

 

 

 

Yes, it seems ironic. I am constantly surprised SD can't see the irony in this. FWIW, I think no one should be forced or coerced to date someone who they do not find attractive or who does not meet their desired criteria. Though that may mean they find dating very difficult or remain single.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[zengirl]

I insinuated in another thread that Somedude sometimes articulates himself in a manner that people sometimes read a little too much into. I think he portrays his standards a little higher than they actually are so they just appear that way.

 

Sure, that's possible. Which is why I've asked him for pics and to quantify those standards a few times now. I suspect the opposite, that he often downplays his standards lately, based on learning "not to say" certain things, as that's all he ever seems to take away from discussions. We'll never know, probably. *shrugs* Though I think it would be immensely helpful to such conversations to know exactly what he considers above average, average, and subpar. It's easy for us all to get different mental images, otherwise.

[starla33]

I have found that many men aim a little too high. Especially on dating sites. They will go and email the hottest model girls they see and I'm not sure why on earth they think these model girls would even look at them twice?

 

You really need to stick to your own level of attractiveness. For example...I'm attractive, but I'm not going after hot model guys because they are obviously way too hot.

 

I guess the good news for you guys is I have found that most girls do NOT want a guy that is hotter than them, so we will usually go for someone that is less attractive. Don't know why that is, but it happens a lot.

[Dust]

I repeat. This "beauty scale bull****" is a futile argument people.

 

SD has convinced himself there's something utterly wrong with him.

 

He allows this distorted belief to control his actions. He has done nothing to try to meet women, regardless of their placement on a scale (pun intended). His pontifications about himself are purely theoretical.

 

This whole thread is a cognitive distortion - and confirming his beliefs that "scales" actually exist only enables him to stay glued to his seat.

 

Calling it theoretical is to generous... I mean don't people have to test their theories. He doesn't give any women a real try. I mean he was obsessed with a girl he approached as a "friend." He even hung out with her alone and at his place and didn't even try to kiss her. He asks out on average 1 woman if even that every 2 years. He asks them out more as friends then romanticly to... so its like a guy who tries to make 1 female friend every 2 years if even that is most likely going to do bad with women.

 

Sure, that's possible. Which is why I've asked him for pics and to quantify those standards a few times now. I suspect the opposite, that he often downplays his standards lately, based on learning "not to say" certain things, as that's all he ever seems to take away from discussions. We'll never know, probably. *shrugs* Though I think it would be immensely helpful to such conversations to know exactly what he considers above average, average, and subpar. It's easy for us all to get different mental images, otherwise.

 

I would say his standards are imposibly high in unatural ways. He has a very high standard of how much a girl should like him. I mean I'm not talking about wanting to be in a loving relationship. I'm talking about him wanting some attractive stranger with big breasts and a narrow waist to seduce him. He doesn't even want to work for it. He just wants to be seduced and chased. It hurts his ego to put himself on the line for rejection. He wants to sit back and nit pick and reject.

 

If he changed his mind set he could get girls and he'd probably widen his net for what he found iresistably attractive.

[Jane2011]

I have found that many men aim a little too high. Especially on dating sites. They will go and email the hottest model girls they see and I'm not sure why on earth they think these model girls would even look at them twice?

 

You really need to stick to your own level of attractiveness. For example...I'm attractive, but I'm not going after hot model guys because they are obviously way too hot.

 

I guess the good news for you guys is I have found that most girls do NOT want a guy that is hotter than them, so we will usually go for someone that is less attractive. Don't know why that is, but it happens a lot.

 

Agree with all of that, except I rarely go for someone less attractive than me. I'm just attracted to good-looking men. But I agree that I go for "normal good-looking men," not "model good-looking men."

 

I think lots of women do date less attractive, though, even if just by a hair.

[AlexDP]

Is it criminalized? I'd never ever date an overweight woman.

 

Now let's see if I get thrown in jail.

[Dust]

Is it criminalized? I'd never ever date an overweight woman.

 

Now let's see if I get thrown in jail.

 

Well first you have to fit the legal definition of "non-top man" theres lots of case law for that.

[AlexDP]

Well first you have to fit the legal definition of "non-top man" theres lots of case law for that.

 

In the OP's beliefs system "non-top men" include just about everyone I suppose.

[zengirl]

I would say his standards are imposibly high in unatural ways. He has a very high standard of how much a girl should like him. I mean I'm not talking about wanting to be in a loving relationship. I'm talking about him wanting some attractive stranger with big breasts and a narrow waist to seduce him. He doesn't even want to work for it. He just wants to be seduced and chased. It hurts his ego to put himself on the line for rejection. He wants to sit back and nit pick and reject.

 

If he changed his mind set he could get girls and he'd probably widen his net for what he found iresistably attractive.

 

This is potentially true as well -- there's no guarantees of course (life is not transactional as SD often wants it to be) but yes, there are many things SD could do to get a GF he might find attractive. An interesting description. I hadn't thought about it that way, but it fits.

 

I have no problem with a guy approaching women (or a woman approaching a man, though it happens less) he finds attractive, without consulting some personal rubric to figure out of he's in her league (she'll let you know by her response! just listen and don't be a jerk about it if she's not interested, but never any harm in trying).

 

So, if SD doesn't want to approach women who are overweight because they aren't attractive to him. And if people are criticizing him for that, it's silly, true. He can approach or not approach anyone he wants. I think he's had overweight women approach him (if I remember correctly) so maybe that's where his obsessional talk with weight comes from, as if he's offended at the notion they'd try? I'm not sure. As someone said above, mostly SD will be choosing to approach or not, so just don't approach overweight women; why even discuss it?*

 

*I understand it's come up hypothetically when SD has pointed out women who won't date shorter men (though SD won't date a woman taller than himself either) that he won't date overweight women, and I agree it's all the same. Physical standards are physical standards. Most people have them, some people weight them higher than others. SD weights the physical very highly, so I find it ironic he's one of the first people to consider women "shallow" for rejecting him on a physical basis.

 

tl;dr: I think if SD is taking away, "LS wants me to ask out overweight women" from those discussions, he's missing the point.

 

ou really need to stick to your own level of attractiveness. For example...I'm attractive, but I'm not going after hot model guys because they are obviously way too hot.

 

I actually don't agree with this. Go after whoever you want. Granted, even if you are model-hot, if you limit yourself to that small subset of the population, you will probably be frustrated! But I see no reason to exclude someone because you fear they may be too hot -- that's just silly. Just don't be a creeper and keep after someone who's turned you down or ignored you.

 

I actually think self-assessment of your "range" can be both paralyzing (create inaction, keep you from going after people who may be interested even if they seem "too good" for you, etc) and entitled (assume people you view to be in your range should date you even if they don't want to).

[zengirl]

I sensed a similar thing, although SD has repeatedly said he'd be willing to date almost any woman as long as she's not overweight. Which is fair enough in my opinion. He has been pretty consistent in that and it's almost his only hangup.

 

Except breast size, including the thread where he said he'd encourage an "otherwise perfect" girl to get breast implants if she had A cups.

 

Except hair length, where he's said he can't stand short hair.

 

Except girls who are taller than him (which at 5'6'' are quite a few).

 

Except girls with below average faces, whatever that means.

 

Except women over 30, despite the fact that he's 29. (This has somewhat to do with experience, but he also says it has to do with other factors.)

 

And a lot of his comments were what he'd "settle" for, not what he wants. No woman (or man, probably) really wants to be "settled" for, certainly not one who's attractive enough to find a more conventionally attractive man who thinks she's crazy-beautiful. *shrugs*

 

SD repeatedly says a variety of things. He talks a lot about women's looks. I'm willing to admit I don't know precisely what he wants, which is why it'd be helpful if he defined it better. Maybe he really does want an average girl, but with his stated requirements, I'm just not seeing that.

[AlexDP]

 

I actually think self-assessment of your "range" can be both paralyzing (create inaction, keep you from going after people who may be interested even if they seem "too good" for you, etc) and entitled (assume people you view to be in your range should date you even if they don't want to).

 

Self-assessment is impossible anyway. I've had great looking girls tell me I was a goodlooking guy and I've had monsters tell me I was butt ugly. No one is an 8 or a 4 on an objective level.

[zengirl]

Self-assessment is impossible anyway. I've had great looking girls tell me I was a goodlooking guy and I've had monsters tell me I was butt ugly. No one is an 8 or a 4 on an objective level.

 

Completely true. I think self-assessment is only helpful if you're willing to embark on self-improvement.