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Posted
My self-worth comes from within - I would never measure MY worthiness against the actions of another person. My friends, family, co-workers, AND MM are who THEY are. They actions are THEIRS alone. None of them influences my OWN WORTHINESS.

 

 

That is great, redcurls, but remember when you came to LS involved with MM and feeling like a complete failure, rejected, out of control, all because of MM? Secret affairs can do a real number on the AP and the BS, so no point in jumping to conclusions about others when they have recently experienced a d-day and implying they are measuring their self-worth in terms of their spouse, when you went through your own meltdown with a MM and came out the other side. With years invested, often children involved, it would be no surprise if they felt an even stronger whirlwind of emotions than you did when you felt rejected by MM. I'm often surprised at how much BW/BH do manage to hold it together, given the circumstances.

  • Like 3
Posted
If OW measure her self-worth against the decisions of another person, regardless of who he chooses - I would pity her, just as I would pity a BS who does the same.

 

 

Glad to hear that you pity both. Even steven.

Posted
That is great, redcurls, but remember when you came to LS involved with MM and feeling like a complete failure, rejected, out of control, all because of MM? Secret affairs can do a real number on the AP and the BS, so no point in jumping to conclusions about others when they have recently experienced a d-day and implying they are measuring their self-worth in terms of their spouse, when you went through your own meltdown with a MM and came out the other side. With years invested, often children involved, it would be no surprise if they felt an even stronger whirlwind of emotions than you did when you felt rejected by MM. I'm often surprised at how much BW/BH do manage to hold it together, given the circumstances.

 

 

Actually, these are exactly the reasons why I'm saying these things. My relationship with MM just ended recently, as in last week. Many times, I did feel rejected and abandoned, and I DID measure MY self-worth because of his behavior. But that's exactly my point. After over 2 years with him, I now KNOW, that who I am, has nothing to do with who HE is. MY own self-worth isn't tied to HIS decision to stay married, or HIS guilt, or HIS struggles. These are HIS issues. I am who I AM. I don't need to see my reflection in HIS eyes to know who I am.

You have no idea how freeing this realization is. That's why I'm pointing these things out to BS and other OW.

Posted
Actually, these are exactly the reasons why I'm saying these things. My relationship with MM just ended recently, as in last week. Many times, I did feel rejected and abandoned, and I DID measure MY self-worth because of his behavior. But that's exactly my point. After over 2 years with him, I now KNOW, that who I am, has nothing to do with who HE is. MY own self-worth isn't tied to HIS decision to stay married, or HIS guilt, or HIS struggles. These are HIS issues. I am who I AM. I don't need to see my reflection in HIS eyes to know who I am.

You have no idea how freeing this realization is. That's why I'm pointing these things out to BS and other OW.

 

That's great if you are pointing this out to be helpful. I thought you were displaying some sense of superiority with your feelings of pity, but perhaps I read you wrong.

 

You may recall when you were feeling rejected, people just telling you that you shouldn't take your worth from MM didn't seem to have much effect at the time. Although, perhaps you were absorbing it and it just wasn't obvious.

Posted
ETA I have said in the year and a bit since Dday over and over- my self worth is based on being a good person. When WH thought initially I was a doormat for staying (during the fog) I said no, I am not staying for lack of self esteem actually my self esteem is not based on what you do, if it were I'd be gone.

 

I had the opportunity once to be the OW and I'm proud I wasn't. I was proud of it then too.

 

Yes, staying true to our values and taking full responsibility for our own actions and how we treat others, is the surest path to healthy self-esteem and feelings of self-worth IMO.

  • Like 1
Posted
That's great if you are pointing this out to be helpful. I thought you were displaying some sense of superiority with your feelings of pity, but perhaps I read you wrong.

 

You may recall when you were feeling rejected, people just telling you that you shouldn't take your worth from MM didn't seem to have much effect at the time. Although, perhaps you were absorbing it and it just wasn't obvious.

 

 

Perceiving someone as superior comes who one's sense of inferiority, it has no foundation in reality. It's a perception only.

 

This is not a war. No one loses or wins. No one is superior or inferior. No one is the prize or punishment.

 

Oh well. I guess it's all a journey we must all walk alone. Some will reach their destination. Some will not.

  • Like 1
Posted
Perceiving someone as superior comes who one's sense of inferiority, it has no foundation in reality. It's a perception only.

 

This is not a war. No one loses or wins. No one is superior or inferior. No one is the prize or punishment.

 

Oh well. I guess it's all a journey we must all walk alone. Some will reach their destination. Some will not.

 

You misunderstood -- I wasn't seeing you as superior, I was seeing you as someone who felt she was superior to BWs. Your comments about pity and your advice came off that way, but posts don't always convey the intended message and as I said, I may have misinterpreted.

Posted

I am just curious as to how many OW/OM have been described to the BS as a crazy person, who is self absorbed and doesn't take care of their children.

 

BW.... not saying that the bunny boiling OW in your case is not, but just wondering how many people are told this and its not true.

 

xMM in my life told his BS all of these things, but nothing could be farther from the truth. Do I take pride in looking nice? Yes, as most women do. But, often times in my life don't have the time to look as nice as I would like to, as working a full time job and being a full time mother doesn't accomadate what I would really like to do or how I would like to look. I was actually SHOCKED when I heard the BS tell me that xMM said this. I mean I bet my jaw hit the floor. She then did ask me what he had said about her, and I never told her, as I didn't think what I said would 1-she would believe it and 2-I didn't want to hurt her any further. I didn't think that me saying all of the horrible things he had said about her would help her at all. She had already been hurt a lot, and there was no need to further her hurt. I often wonder if I should have. By what a lot of you say, knowing more is best. But again, who knows, she might not even have believed me.

 

She wanted to think of me as this tatooed up women, who was nothing but a partier, and total hooker. She was shocked that I was actually a decent person who was caring.

 

I know there are some OW/OM who do this just for sex or fun. Those I do not understand, because this is the FARTHEST idea of fun that I've ever seen.

Posted
Of course.

 

When BS walks around all smug and victorious because her husband chose to stay married to her - that's because she doesn't measure her self-worth by HIS decision to PICK her.

 

Which BS is feeling smug and victorious because her H chose her over the affair partner?

 

THAT is some assumption.

 

We were betrayed by the person we trusted most on the planet. We were lied to daily by a man we once respected enough to marry (and he us) and have babies with, a mortgage, dream and plan a future with.

 

YOU think we feel smug over ANY of his choices?

 

How do you know he didn't come pleading and begging to reconcile; that he was thrown out; family alerted, divorce lawyer and therapist called? That he called and texted and fought for us to get back together?That he apologized, cried, swore it was a mistake, one that grew out of control, and he was stupid, would never do it again.....blah, blah, blah.

 

You, other than wanting to know who you were, were not nearly as important as what we as BS were CHOOSING for ourselves after DDAY.

 

Trust me on this: He did NOT choose me over her.

 

I chose, months later, to give HIM a chance to reconcile with me.

 

Why does that statement that he chose me over her always make me feel like I am back in the high school cafeteria?

 

And people say OW aren't competing with the spouse.

  • Like 1
Posted
Which BS is feeling smug and victorious because her H chose her over the affair partner?

 

THAT is some assumption.

 

We were betrayed by the person we trusted most on the planet. We were lied to daily by a man we once respected enough to marry (and he us) and have babies with, a mortgage, dream and plan a future with.

 

YOU think we feel smug over ANY of his choices?

 

How do you know he didn't come pleading and begging to reconcile; that he was thrown out; family alerted, divorce lawyer and therapist called? That he called and texted and fought for us to get back together?That he apologized, cried, swore it was a mistake, one that grew out of control, and he was stupid, would never do it again.....blah, blah, blah.

 

You, other than wanting to know who you were, were not nearly as important as what we as BS were CHOOSING for ourselves after DDAY.

 

Trust me on this: He did NOT choose me over her.

 

I chose, months later, to give HIM a chance to reconcile with me.

 

Why does that statement that he chose me over her always make me feel like I am back in the high school cafeteria?

 

And people say OW aren't competing with the spouse.

 

I am SURE, without a shadow of a doubt, that your husband, and many more just like him, begged and pleaded and promised the sun and the moon in exchange for your forgiveness. There in no question about that. Also there is no question that you were gracious and kind enough to grant him your forgiveness. (please see above - my utmost admiration to reconciling BS's grace and sacrifices.)

 

But would you like me to go back and collect a small sample (like maybe 10,000) of posts, where BS tells OW that "WS made a choice to stay with his wife, now accept it and let him go."

 

Lets be honest here - HE, meaning WS, was the one with the ability to chose between two (sometimes more) women. He could choose OW or he could choose BS. IT IS HIS CHOICE. If he chooses OW, she then has to decide if she WANTS him, with all his excess baggage of ex-wife and kids, or not. And if HE chooses BS, BS then can decide if she WANTS to forgive him, or not. So, ultimately it's the WS's CHOICE, because he had to OPTIONS.

Posted
I am SURE, without a shadow of a doubt, that your husband, and many more just like him, begged and pleaded and promised the sun and the moon in exchange for your forgiveness. There in no question about that. Also there is no question that you were gracious and kind enough to grant him your forgiveness. (please see above - my utmost admiration to reconciling BS's grace and sacrifices.)

 

But would you like me to go back and collect a small sample (like maybe 10,000) of posts, where BS tells OW that "WS made a choice to stay with his wife, now accept it and let him go."

 

Lets be honest here - HE, meaning WS, was the one with the ability to chose between two (sometimes more) women. He could choose OW or he could choose BS. IT IS HIS CHOICE. If he chooses OW, she then has to decide if she WANTS him, with all his excess baggage of ex-wife and kids, or not. And if HE chooses BS, BS then can decide if she WANTS to forgive him, or not. So, ultimately it's the WS's CHOICE, because he had to OPTIONS.

 

 

Only if he is given the options.

Posted
Only if he is given the options.

 

 

OK. I will try again.

 

WS has a wife. He then engages in an affair with OW. So, his wife is option A, his OW his option B. Do you get my point?

 

He is given the options when there are TWO (or more) women that he can PICK.

 

So ultimately, BS would have been unable to CHOOSE to forgive and reconcile with her WS, unless WS first CHOSE to stay with her. You can't really reconcile and work on your marriage IF YOUR HUSBAND PICKS HIS OW, now can you?

Posted
LOLOL, the WS "chooses" to stay with the wife? That's not how it usually goes down.

 

If the MM "chooses" the OW, it's usually because THE WIFE ended the marriage and he has no choice but to "pick" the OW because his wife is done with him. Yes, MM will lie and say he left on his own when of course he didn't and will try to win the wife back even while he swears to OW that his marriage is over. Many try to win the wife back right up until the divorce is finalized . . . and then after the divorce is final too.

 

Why do you think they almost always go back? It's because they're waiting for the wife to take them back, that's why.

 

Don't tell me you believe the ole "I'm going back for the kids" line of BS.

 

When the MM remains married or goes back after getting kicked out, it's because the wife allows him to stay in the marriage.

 

Let's not be delusional now.

 

Personally, if MM decided to leave his marriage and then went back, it wouldn't matter to me if it was because of the kids, finances, the house, or his fondness to the neighbor's dog. And believeing the particular reason or not, will have no bearing on what I thought of him then. People have the right to change their minds. MM can change his mind and decide he wants his marriage after all, even if he left. IT WOULD STILL BE HIS DECISION.

 

Again, EVEN if the WS decides to wait for BS to take him back, he FIRST must CHOOSE to WANT BS to take him back. If WS doesn't make a decision to PICK his BS, then there is nothing for her to ALLOW or not.

 

(Sorry, I just don't know how to make this any simpler.)

Posted
And I don't know how to make it simpler either.

 

You've heard the phrase, "Married men never leave," right? They almost always want the BS to take them back - no matter what they tell the OW. THAT is why they never leave. THAT is why they go back. They don't "choose" to want to go back or wait . . . because there is no choice to be made.

 

Their choice was made the day they got married. There's no picking. There's no choosing . . . no changing minds.

 

The fate of the marriage is in the wife's hands. Can't make it any simpler.

 

 

Wow. These are some terrifying words.

 

I hope that I, and my husband, and and everyone I know, ALWAYS have choices, and can ALWAYS change their minds, about EVERYTHING. I would want my husband to stay with me BY CHOICE, and if he changes his mind, he will ALWAYS be free to leave.

"There's no picking. There's no choosing . . . no changing minds."

 

Wow. Just wow.

Posted
And I don't know how to make it simpler either.

 

You've heard the phrase, "Married men never leave," right? They almost always want the BS to take them back - no matter what they tell the OW. THAT is why they never leave. THAT is why they always go back. They don't "choose" to want to go back or wait . . . because there is no choice to be made and OW was never an option. The only times OW is an option is when THE WIFE makes the choice to end the marriage.

 

Their choice was made the day they got married. That's why OW is a side dish and not their wife. There's no picking. There's no choosing . . . no changing minds. If MM "leaves," he got kicked out. If MM is "separated," he got kicked out and is merely waiting to go home.

 

The fate of the marriage is almost always in the wife's hands and what SHE CHOOSES to do . . . plain and simple.

 

And her CHOICE is either kick out the cheater or remain married to the CHEATER. Yeah, she won the prize! Not.

Posted

So, what your saying is that if a man wants to divorce his wife, he does not have a choice if his wife still wants to be M? Or are you just saying rule only applies when the MM is having an A?

Posted
Wow. These are some terrifying words.

 

I hope that I, and my husband, and and everyone I know, ALWAYS have choices, and can ALWAYS change their minds, about EVERYTHING. I would want my husband to stay with me BY CHOICE, and if he changes his mind, he will ALWAYS be free to leave.

"There's no picking. There's no choosing . . . no changing minds."

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

I can't tell if you are just being obtuse, or if you really don't understand what is being said. It seems like you are intentionally twisting what's being said to as so to poo-poo a poster you disagree with.

 

Alice is not saying that the MP doesn't have a choice. She is saying that the choice was already made. And obviously, in most cases, it was. When they chose an A, instead of a Divorce, that should be the first sign to the OW that they have already chosen to stay married. Most cheaters are looking for an A, not a new W. They already have one of those. And if she will stay after finding out, they will stay no matter what they told the OW.

 

I'm not saying this to be smug. I know so many serial cheaters that have been busted and still call their wives their "Queen" (not that I believe it) and parade her around in public after being busted, its not funny. Sure, their cheating makes a mockery of their marriage, but they chose their W from day one. The others were chosen for the role they fulfilled.

 

The words aren't that scary when looked at them in the way they were intended.

  • Like 1
Posted
So, what your saying is that if a man wants to divorce his wife, he does not have a choice if his wife still wants to be M? Or are you just saying rule only applies when the MM is having an A?

 

 

Thank you. That's exactly what I was thinking.

 

I guess all these divorced men got kicked out by their wives. They all wished to stay married and couldn't since it was all up to their wives. You see, all men, once they get married, stay happy for the rest of their lives. The only time a man gets a divorce is when his wife becomes unhappy in the marriage. Apparently only wives have this privilege.

 

(I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Seriously.)

Posted
I can't tell if you are just being obtuse, or if you really don't understand what is being said. It seems like you are intentionally twisting what's being said to as so to poo-poo a poster you disagree with.

 

Alice is not saying that the MP doesn't have a choice. She is saying that the choice was already made. And obviously, in most cases, it was. When they chose an A, instead of a Divorce, that should be the first sign to the OW that they have already chosen to stay married. Most cheaters are looking for an A, not a new W. They already have one of those. And if she will stay after finding out, they will stay no matter what they told the OW.

 

I'm not saying this to be smug. I know so many serial cheaters that have been busted and still call their wives their "Queen" (not that I believe it) and parade her around in public after being busted, its not funny. Sure, their cheating makes a mockery of their marriage, but they chose their W from day one. The others were chosen for the role they fulfilled.

 

The words aren't that scary when looked at them in the way they were intended.

 

You are talking about men who, deliberately, went out SEARCHING for an affair. That is true. They were not looking for a wife, and their choice was made to GO and CHEAT. Just like it's the wives choice to stay with them in spite of their deliberate actions.

 

But men who never intended to cheat or have an affair, but somehow met another woman, and fell in love with her, and had a long-time, involved, emotional, sexual, intellectual relationship with her - they then have a choice to make. Do they want to break up their marriage or not. Mostly they don't. And that is TOTALLY understandable. Nor SHOULD they break up their marriage JUST because they met someone else. The only reason to get a divorce is if one IS NO LONGER HAPPY in the marriage.

  • Like 2
Posted
Actually........each person in the triangle has choices. The BS has a choice to continue the marriage or not but the ws has to want that too. The ow can continue the affair if the ws is willing.

 

The WS can't continue the affair or the marriage unless the other party is willing. :D

 

 

Alice you are hung up on wanting curls to understand the bs has the choice to throw him out or not and you are insisting on driving that point home with not so veiled insults. You want all to think that the BS is the one with all the power. She/He has a lot but doesn't have it all.......others still have choices to make also.

 

I'd also like to say that this site has a abundance of strong BS's who are able to make hard choices and not accept less than but that doesn't reflect other sites that are there.........not at all.

 

I don't agree that Alice was attempting to insult anyone. I believe that a person that is married and chooses to have an affair is clearly choosing to keep their marriage initially. Not to mention, if the BS never knows of the A, no matter how long it lasts, the WS is obviously staying married - no matter what they tell the OP or what the OP chooses to believe.

 

I don't think the point was to belittle anyone or empower the BS. The point is married and cheating is still married. That choice has been made. Too bad many OP don't find out until after a D-day.

Posted
You are talking about men who, deliberately, went out SEARCHING for an affair. That is true. They were not looking for a wife, and their choice was made to GO and CHEAT. Just like it's the wives choice to stay with them in spite of their deliberate actions.

 

But men who never intended to cheat or have an affair, but somehow met another woman, and fell in love with her, and had a long-time, involved, emotional, sexual, intellectual relationship with her - they then have a choice to make. Do they want to break up their marriage or not. Mostly they don't. And that is TOTALLY understandable. Nor SHOULD they break up their marriage JUST because they met someone else. The only reason to get a divorce is if one IS NO LONGER HAPPY in the marriage.

 

You should not assume that I was talking only about one type of cheater, just because I brought up a specific type. I was talking about them ALL.

 

Like you say above, "mostly they don't" want to break up their marriage. Which means, they already made a choice to stay married. Which is the point I believe Alice was making. She was not saying they can't get divorced if they choose to. She was saying they already made the choice to stay married.

Posted (edited)

This conversation can be viewed in a myriad of ways. I understand each POV and think neither are wrong, but it depends on how you're viewing it and your philosophy on certain things.

 

I personally feel like married and cheating, especially at length or serially is not choosing the OW or your marriage, but choosing yourself. Plain and simple. AKA having your cake and eating it too. Choosing everything becomes choosing nothing.

 

You are married because you're married. Being unmarried is a process so even if you hate your wife...you'll still be married to her unless you choose to divorce her. You can't do much about being married unless you divorce. That is the choice. Choosing to cheat while married is less taxing and is fence-sitting and not choosing anything but yourself...while divorcing would actually be a choice or deciding to stop seeing the OW and work on your marriage is a choice.

 

I believe loving and honoring someone is a conscious choice you make daily...whereas for example, you can be married and choose not to honor that. Then it becomes some technicality and lipservice that is not so much a choice but a situation you are in because you're in it and don't want to not be in it for whatever reason.

 

If you have an OW and a wife...you are in effect choosing yourself at both of their expenses. Even if the truth is that you still want to be married to your wife, just have a secret OW....you're not choosing your marriage...you are choosing yourself, as clearly your actions are jeopardizing your marriage and may cost you your marriage but you're choosing it just the same.

 

So I think it depends on what choice means to some. In this particular conversation, I am looking at marriage as a choice to love and honor...not simply, "be married to for the sake of it" or "be married to because I haven't divorced". For me...if we're married and you are cheating, you aren't choosing me...you have chosen yourself. I don't find any consolation in the fact that you have an OW but won't divorce me. You are "choosing the marriage" not for me or to love and honor me, but for your own convenience at the end of the day as clearly none of my feelings are being considered by your other choices.

Edited by MissBee
  • Like 4
Posted

BS shouldn't assume that ALL OW wish for their MM to leave. Just like we don't want to marry every guy we ever dated.

 

I, for one, never asked, or wanted, MM to leave. On principle, I never want any man to leave FOR ME. That's too big a responsibility, and I simply don't want to take on such a burden. If he was to leave because he no longer wanted to stay married, and then I decided that I want to be with him, WHEN he is free, that's a different story.

 

As to MY MM, specifically, now that I have "dated" him for over 2 years, and witnessed up-close and personal his behavior, conduct, psychological issues, treatment of others, etc. - I have no desire whatsoever, to spend the rest of my life with him. His choices, whatever they may be, are meaningless to me. Whether he stays married or not, I will not be a part of his life. THIS IS MY CHOICE.

Posted
This conversation can be viewed in a myriad of ways. I understand each POV and think neither are wrong, but it depends on how you're viewing it and your philosophy on certain things.

 

I personally feel like married and cheating, especially at length or serially is not choosing the OW or your marriage, but choosing yourself. Plain and simple. AKA having your cake and eating it too. Choosing everything becomes choosing nothing.

 

You are married because you're married. Being unmarried is a process so even if you hate your wife...you'll still be married to her unless you choose to divorce her. You can't do much about being married unless you divorce. That is the choice. Choosing to cheat while married is less taxing and is fence-sitting and not choosing anything but yourself...while divorcing would actually be a choice or deciding to stop seeing the OW and work on your marriage is a choice.

 

I believe loving and honoring someone is a conscious choice you make daily...whereas for example, you can be married and choose not to honor that. Then it becomes some technicality and lipservice that is not so much a choice but a situation you are in because you're in it and don't want to not be in it for whatever reason.

 

If you have an OW and a wife...you are in effect choosing yourself at both of their expenses. Even if the truth is that you still want to be married to your wife, just have a secret OW....you're not choosing your marriage...you are choosing yourself, as clearly your actions are jeopardizing your marriage and may cost you your marriage but you're choosing it just the same.

 

So I think it depends on what choice means to some. In this particular conversation, I am looking at marriage as a choice to love and honor...not simply, "be married to for the sake of it" or "be married to because I haven't divorced". For me...if we're married and you are cheating, you aren't choosing me...you have chosen yourself. I don't find any consolation in the fact that you have an OW but won't divorce me. You are "choosing the marriage" not for me or to love and honor me, but for your own convenience at the end of the day as clearly none of my feelings are being considered by your other choices.

 

Precisely. Its treating the marriage as if it is a "given", a constant. Taking for granted that they would ever need to "choose" it to begin with.

Posted
BS shouldn't assume that ALL OW wish for their MM to leave. Just like we don't want to marry every guy we ever dated.

 

I, for one, never asked, or wanted, MM to leave. On principle, I never want any man to leave FOR ME. That's too big a responsibility, and I simply don't want to take on such a burden. If he was to leave because he no longer wanted to stay married, and then I decided that I want to be with him, WHEN he is free, that's a different story.

 

As to MY MM, specifically, now that I have "dated" him for over 2 years, and witnessed up-close and personal his behavior, conduct, psychological issues, treatment of others, etc. - I have no desire whatsoever, to spend the rest of my life with him. His choices, whatever they may be, are meaningless to me. Whether he stays married or not, I will not be a part of his life. THIS IS MY CHOICE.

 

Whether the OW wants the MM to leave or not is irrelevant and doesn't change the validity of what was stated previously.

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