aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I'm also just a *wee* confused about the logic. So, some men (a large portion which probably overlap with Men's Rights groups) are angry that they have to pay child support... ya know, for the child they created who someone else is raising because they didn't wear protection. Okay, I can see some cause for bitterness there... but then it seems the SAME men are then upset with all the access women have to birth control. Ya know, the thing that would stop babies without needing a condom. Like, oh my gosh, their health care (which the women ALSO pay into) is covering contraception! That thing that would potentially prevent the male from paying child support. And... this same group of men also wants to LIMIT the right for the woman to decide to NOT have the baby. So, they don't want the woman to not have the baby (no access to birth control, no abortion) but they also want to be off the hook for child support? So, if I'm following the Mirror Land logic, women get to "determine whether something is considered an unwanted, parasitic invader one minute, or a precious gift from heaven requiring 18 years of involuntary servitude the next," and men get to decide that something is considered a precious gift requiring 9 months of physical labor followed by 18 years of involuntary servitude, and an unwanted parasite for 18 years. Do I have that right? Well, there are some people in the world with backwards logic. But, my position is this: both people agree to sex, it's in the interest of both to avoid unwanted pregnancy. Before having sex, a couple should decide what methods they will employ. If pregnancy happens anyway, both should decide together what to do. Since both took a chance, both should have a say. I'm in favor or birth control, I'm just not in favor of government mandates or involvement of any kind. Governments promised WWI would be over in six weeks, do you really want that kind of entity in charge of ensuring access to affordable birth control? 1
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 Are you talking about putting a woman through a pregnancy, if the father wants the baby, even if she doesn't? Otherwise, it seems that he has a choice to use protection. This also has me wondering why they still haven't come out with a contraceptive pill for men to take. Naw... forced pregnancy pretty much goes against my beliefs. I like more choice for everybody. Also... male contraceptives sound like the best idea ever! Wouldn't you rather take the bullets out of the gun rather than wear a bullet proof vest?
dasein Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 A problem easily avoided by using a freaking condom, As Aj says, you are missing the point. Moreover, only someone who is completely pro life in all cases (other than rape and a couple of other limited exceptions) can claim with logical consistency that men should be involuntarily bound by pregnancy alone to pay child support. If someone can conceive of human rights not attaching to a fetus, any fetus, then they can't logically claim that men should always be beholden to pay for fetuses carried to term. For purposes of assigning involuntary servitude, there are no two ways of looking at it. Either it's ALWAYS a legal person, or it isn't. If it isn't, men shouldn't be bound without equal say in the matter. Should the window for opting out be limited? Sure, maybe as little as 30 days after notification to the father in writing, but the system of complete female control we live under now is discriminatory per se and ethically corrupt. Others in the thread, please spare me any further BS about "paying for your children" if you aren't completely pro life. It's just that, patent, self-serving BS to justify institutional theft. Oh and I'm pro abortion btw.
mostlyclueless Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Do you not understand that the fetus has to grow inside the female person for 9 months?
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 I'm also just a *wee* confused about the logic. So, some men (a large portion which probably overlap with Men's Rights groups) are angry that they have to pay child support... ya know, for the child they created who someone else is raising because they didn't wear protection. Okay, I can see some cause for bitterness there... but then it seems the SAME men are then upset with all the access women have to birth control. Ya know, the thing that would stop babies without needing a condom. Like, oh my gosh, their health care (which the women ALSO pay into) is covering contraception! That thing that would potentially prevent the male from paying child support. How in the world do you equate MRA guys with Catholic Priests? Talk about stereotypes and misandry. I believe in birth control. Hell it cuts costs all over the place. However I can see where some people have a religious disagreement with it. Fine... I can respect them... AND I can choose to not work for them. And... this same group of men also wants to LIMIT the right for the woman to decide to NOT have the baby. Some people of both genders believe that abortion is murder. But that isn't what this thread is about.
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 Ah Crap. I wasn't expect a political debate. I don't particularly care if a woman has an abortion or not... or if she uses the pill. That's her choice... and nothing is changing that. The idea that a woman can FORCE other people to pay for her personal choices is debatable. I would argue that it's better for everyone... but I'm not comfortable forcing people to do stuff. The real point here is that a huge number of women like Verhrzn are being fed a line of crap from the Feminists to make them scared that "MEN" are trying to take away all their rights and control them. The fact that this political tactic seems to work with some people shows the level of sheer hatred and misandry running amok in our country! Do you not think this bleeds into the dating world? Perhaps we can't get along on LS because in the real world we let clowns like these Feminists control our government. We wouldn't elect MRA groups to run the country... why the hell do we elect women who hate men? 1
dasein Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 So, if I'm following the Mirror Land logic, women get to "determine whether something is considered an unwanted, parasitic invader one minute, or a precious gift from heaven requiring 18 years of involuntary servitude the next," and men get to decide that something is considered a precious gift requiring 9 months of physical labor followed by 18 years of involuntary servitude, and an unwanted parasite for 18 years. Do I have that right? No one has said or implied that women should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term by the choice of the man. If anyone/anything has the authority to prevent a woman from aborting a pregnancy, it's the state and the state alone. However, 1) Men should be informed of pregnancies they create, and have a chance to register their position, in person to the mother, on whether or not the pregnancy is terminated before abortion takes place, and if they are not so informed, they should have civil remedies available against the mother. 2) Men should have the right to "opt out" of supporting any pregnancy within a limited window after being informed of it. If women have the sole right to determine whether the fetus is the equivalent of "alien" or "little suzy," then men should be able to opt out of the pregnancy entirely. If Roe v Wade were overturned, then sure, men should be liable for any pregnancy they create, until then the current regime is a gross miscarriage of justice.
aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Ah Crap. I wasn't expect a political debate. I don't particularly care if a woman has an abortion or not... or if she uses the pill. That's her choice... and nothing is changing that. The idea that a woman can FORCE other people to pay for her personal choices is debatable. I would argue that it's better for everyone... but I'm not comfortable forcing people to do stuff. The real point here is that a huge number of women like Verhrzn are being fed a line of crap from the Feminists to make them scared that "MEN" are trying to take away all their rights and control them. The fact that this political tactic seems to work with some people shows the level of sheer hatred and misandry running amok in our country! Do you not think this bleeds into the dating world? Perhaps we can't get along on LS because in the real world we let clowns like these Feminists control our government. We wouldn't elect MRA groups to run the country... why the hell do we elect women who hate men? I don't view this as a gender thing though. This issue is no different than the drug war, or our overseas wars. If you're against the war on drugs, you just want everyone to get high. If you're against the other wars, you must hate the troops. If you're against social security, it must be because you hate old people and want them to die in the streets. Nonsense. Stop playing in the hands of the power elite.
mostlyclueless Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 You think that women who feel that our rights are being threatened are being "fed a line of crap?" You think we couldn't come to that conclusion on our own, based on the clear and consistent Republican party line to ensure that women have as few reproductive rights as possible? Do you really think we're too stupid to pick up on that on our own? Look, the abortion/child support situation just ****ing sucks. Abortion, no abortion, child support, no child support -- no matter what happens, the woman is stuck. She has no way out. So, sorry, the guy has no way out either. It is a ****ing bummer all around, but the current system is the fairest possible solution.
dasein Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Do you not think this bleeds into the dating world? Perhaps we can't get along on LS because in the real world we let clowns like these Feminists control our government. We wouldn't elect MRA groups to run the country... why the hell do we elect women who hate men? It sure does, and that's why I go off on feminism here on a dating board so much. It has had horrible effects in my own dating life, and many of my friends, both male and female. Polarization politics, primarily embodied in feminism, are the single most damaging creation of the 20th century to male-female relationships, and our society generally. It is by far the worst social problem we face IMO.
aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 You think that women who feel that our rights are being threatened are being "fed a line of crap?" You think we couldn't come to that conclusion on our own, based on the clear and consistent Republican party line to ensure that women have as few reproductive rights as possible? Do you really think we're too stupid to pick up on that on our own? Look, the abortion/child support situation just ****ing sucks. Abortion, no abortion, child support, no child support -- no matter what happens, the woman is stuck. She has no way out. So, sorry, the guy has no way out either. It is a ****ing bummer all around, but the current system is the fairest possible solution. Look around you. Everyone's rights are being taken away, what makes women so special? The day I take you serious on this is the day you start seriously campaigning for the repeal of the NDAA and an end to the war on drugs and other such issues. You either believe in civil liberties (including abortion) or you don't. Stop picking and choosing which ones are important to you. 1
mostlyclueless Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 What the **** are you talking about? Why the **** do you think I support the war on drugs? What the **** is this argument: "You want rights for women? WELL HOW ABOUT RIGHTS FOR EVERYONE, HUH? HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?" You think I'm going to ****ing DISAGREE with that!?
mostlyclueless Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 dasein, if you are having problems dating, it might be "feminism" or all women, or it might be...hmm...can anyone think of any other explanation...? 1
dasein Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 You think that women who feel that our rights are being threatened are being "fed a line of crap?" The fact that you couch the question as "women's rights" instead of "human rights" demonstrates very clearly that you have bought the "line of crap" hook, line and sinker. And before you accuse me of doing the same thing, when you beat a dog for 50 years until it turns and starts to snap, the dog is not culpable in the same way the person beating it is.
Woggle Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I support the basic ideas of feminism but I wish they would realize that the misandrists who have sadly become the face of the movement to the mainstream are doing nothing to help their cause.
aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 What the **** are you talking about? Why the **** do you think I support the war on drugs? What the **** is this argument: "You want rights for women? WELL HOW ABOUT RIGHTS FOR EVERYONE, HUH? HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT?" You think I'm going to ****ing DISAGREE with that!? Everyone here is picking on the Republicans. As if the Democrats aren't complicit in this little liberty destroying enterprise. Throwing aside the other issues that I mentioned, do you really think the Democrats have any incentive to settle the abortion and women's rights issues? That's the goose that lays the golden eggs. They ain't never gonna fix that. 1
dasein Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Everyone here is picking on the Republicans. As if the Democrats aren't complicit in this little liberty destroying enterprise. . That's another point, I'm not a republican, but feminism is entirely an organ of the left, just another way for democrats to buy votes from the gullible. Or just watch how the "feminists" throw their supposed support of "advancement for women" right out the window when the next Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann emerges from the right. Feminists are only "pro-woman" if the woman has the "correct" ideology, if she isn't a democrat, they treat her exactly as their beloved imaginary whipping boy "the patriarchy" would.
joystickd Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 dasein, if you are having problems dating, it might be "feminism" or all women, or it might be...hmm...can anyone think of any other explanation...? Why the cheap shot? 1
TheBigQuestion Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Why the cheap shot? When you have nothing of value to say, the personal insult is the first course of action. 1
dasein Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Why the cheap shot? Eh, I opened the door with the "irrational half of humanity" dig, so in this case, probably deserved it. 1
grkBoy Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 The gender war in politics is generally about smoke screens. Conservatives are fighting on the birth control and abortion issues because they don't have much else to stand on. They can't seem to come up with a feasible economic policy, the new healthcare legislation is gaining popularity, jobs are growing, and even the US is moving towards becoming a hot spot for oil production. So they need things they can take a stand on, make a lot of noise, please the mob, and bash the other guy. Thus why they keep going on and on about abortion, birth control, gays, and now saber-rattling to attack Iran. You can't equate this BS with things happening in dating. What's going on in dating is a few things: 1. The changing gender roles. Women are growing in the working world, even earning more than men now in many cases. Thus this can backlash on dating when these same women still want to "marry up", and men who can't handle a woman earning more, or the idea of him becoming Mr Mom while she works. 2. The large amount of males who grew up in broken families and thus can't handle themselves in the social world. They are either the douchebags who think women are playthings, or the doormat nice guys who grow into their 30s and 40s without dating or sexual experiences. 3. Both genders trying to figure out what they want. This could be lumped into #1, but I more think about this in terms of all the supposed "man children" out there who prefer video games and watching TV over commitment, marriage, and family. Likewise, I also think about the vast amount of women torn between different ideas of lifestyle when they realize they can't have it all. They want the high-powered career and success, but now can't seem to figure out how they can put a marriage and family in that mix...thus they get frustrated, unhappy, and confused on if they should push to be CEO or give it all up to be a wife and mother. 4. The growing antisocial gap. TIME Magazine talked about the growing number of people who live alone now. These are the folks who just decided marriage, family, or even dating are not important. So you find the ones who want a marriage meeting loads of men and women who won't go any further than friends or a hookup. More people are simply abandoning any sense of "we" in our society. The current political squabbles are just BS smoke screens set up to mislead us. 1
Taramere Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Any political ideology will fuel a counter-ideology. I think most reasonable people might take an interest in ideologies for academic purposes, and might find some ideologies helpful in guiding them...but will probably not permit their lives to be controlled by ideology. My parents have had a long and happy marriage. My father, in particular, is always going on about it...and one of the things he says has made it successful is that it's a partnership that involves mutual respect. I'm not making that up, and neither is my dad an ardent feminist by any means. When he was younger he was very volatile. No doubt the two of them have a marriage that, if analysed by a psychologist, women's rights activist or men's rights activist, would be criticised in all kinds of ways....but it works for them, and that's the main thing. I see the same thing reflected in other successful couples I know. Rather than giving much of a damn about whether their relationship adheres faithfully to or departs from any particular ideology, they've figured out a situation that works on a practical level. The main problem I can see is the people who have all kinds of personal issues that result in them trying to stir up problems in happy marriages....accusing the parties involved of being brainwashed - whether by feminism or by patriarchal notions of what marriage should look like. Not the ideologies themselves. Most ideologies tend to be about as fair or as extreme as the people practising them are in their own temperaments.
Kamille Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I agree everyone is affected... and not always equally. How do you keep a straight face and tell a guy that he get's no choice in being a father or not, yet you can choose to stop being a mother at any point you wish? Pregnancy lasts 44 weeks... child support 1000. I'm in favor of more choices for everyone. A guy should get a choice in being a father. He should also be part of the decision of ending or continuing a pregnancy. Most courts have a formula so that parents are expected to contribute to its economic support. Any other questions my petulant child?
BlueGrl Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I think women are better than Men is every way. tee hee If we were not better, we would not have Men pay for our food and entertainment. Girl power!
Woggle Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I think women are better than Men is every way. tee hee If we were not better, we would not have Men pay for our food and entertainment. Girl power! This is precisely the kind of attitude that gives feminism such a bad image.
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