Untouchable_Fire Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 We consistently have this stream of threads showing people confused and upset regarding gender roles. Who pays for dates? Who calls after a date? Who should approach who in a bar? ... ect. What I have found interesting is that many posters report never hearing these things discussed outside this website. I can understand that to a degree. However, with a presidential election coming up it's been pretty clear that politicians use the idea of a gender war to fire up the people who vote for them. It's even clearer that those people are primarily feminists. So... I think we can safely say that it is a fact there is a large group of anti-male activists running around the country. I think it's time we cede part of the argument to guys like Woggle. 2
verhrzn Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 We consistently have this stream of threads showing people confused and upset regarding gender roles. Who pays for dates? Who calls after a date? Who should approach who in a bar? ... ect. What I have found interesting is that many posters report never hearing these things discussed outside this website. I can understand that to a degree. However, with a presidential election coming up it's been pretty clear that politicians use the idea of a gender war to fire up the people who vote for them. It's even clearer that those people are primarily feminists. So... I think we can safely say that it is a fact there is a large group of anti-male activists running around the country. I think it's time we cede part of the argument to guys like Woggle. .... Right wind politicians are running around creating laws about how your employer could fire you if they discover you take contraceptive pills, that women have to have an ultra sound before an abortion, that women getting abortions should be told outright lies with no scientific backing (like abortion causes breast cancer), and that women should be banned from using their own health insurance to buy birth control pills..... and you're claiming there's a large group of ANTI-MALE activists running around?? I'm sorry, I usually try to stay away from the gender warfare, but this is just ridiculous. Please name me one law that's gone before Congress in the last year that seeks to control men's bodies in any way, or in a way that is even approaching the laws I mentioned above. 13
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 .... Right wind politicians are running around creating laws about how your employer could fire you if they discover you take contraceptive pills, that women have to have an ultra sound before an abortion, that women getting abortions should be told outright lies with no scientific backing (like abortion causes breast cancer), and that women should be banned from using their own health insurance to buy birth control pills..... and you're claiming there's a large group of ANTI-MALE activists running around?? Please provide sources. I think 90% of that is just made up crap. Last I checked birth control was still legal. No law pending to change that. An ultrasound doesn't stop you from getting an abortion. It just provides you more info on what you are about to do. I'm sorry, I usually try to stay away from the gender warfare, but this is just ridiculous. Please name me one law that's gone before Congress in the last year that seeks to control men's bodies in any way, or in a way that is even approaching the laws I mentioned above. Just as an example, the healthcare reform bill requires that health insurance companies charge women the same as men for premiums... despite much higher usage. That means I am less able to pay for my own healthcare because I'm paying higher premiums for women. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with that... except I would like to have the same law force my car insurance down since they charge me double for being a man. 3
Kamille Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 That means I am less able to pay for my own healthcare because I'm paying higher premiums to ensure neither me nor my partner end up with an unwanted pregnancy. Corrected it for you. You're welcome. I know. Blows your mind doesn't it? Parenthood isn't just a women's thing. 3
aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 .... Right wind politicians are running around creating laws about how your employer could fire you if they discover you take contraceptive pills, that women have to have an ultra sound before an abortion, that women getting abortions should be told outright lies with no scientific backing (like abortion causes breast cancer), and that women should be banned from using their own health insurance to buy birth control pills..... and you're claiming there's a large group of ANTI-MALE activists running around?? I'm sorry, I usually try to stay away from the gender warfare, but this is just ridiculous. Please name me one law that's gone before Congress in the last year that seeks to control men's bodies in any way, or in a way that is even approaching the laws I mentioned above. Congress should be abolished, along with the presidency. Both only function to take rights away, kill people, and make everyone's life worse. This is not a gender issue, it's a freedom issue. 2
verhrzn Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Please provide sources. I think 90% of that is just made up crap. Last I checked birth control was still legal. No law pending to change that. Birth control law in Arizona: Proposed AZ law would let women be fired for using the pill - Hot Topics - timesunion.com - Albany NY New Hampshire declares abortion causes breast cancer, sans scientific data: Abortion Causes Breast Cancer, New Hampshire House Declares An ultrasound doesn't stop you from getting an abortion. It just provides you more info on what you are about to do. And an ultra sound CAN stop you from getting an abortion. Now you not only need to schedule time for the abortion procedure, but also for an ultrasound. More time off of work (which some women cannot afford), more money, more hoops to jump through... And the more hoops you have, the harder it is to jump through them. Considering some women have to travel out of state to even get the abortion procedure performed, an ultra sound pushes it off even further... And since time is of the essence, since many states have laws that abortions can only be performed within certain trimesters, you're looking at a very tight time table. Furthermore, exactly WHY does the ultra sound need to occur? It makes absolutely no sense... unless, of course, it's to try to get the woman to change her mind. Or to shame her ("Look at what you're about to kill! LOOK AT IT"), or to throw up as many road blocks as possible and hope she gives up. Give me one logical or scientific reason a woman would need to examine an ultra sound of a baby she isn't going to have. I mean, what information can an ultra sound give you about "what you're about to do"? Just as an example, the healthcare reform bill requires that health insurance companies charge women the same as men for premiums... despite much higher usage. That means I am less able to pay for my own healthcare because I'm paying higher premiums for women. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with that... except I would like to have the same law force my car insurance down since they charge me double for being a man. Um... I have no idea where you get the idea that you somehow pay a higher premium than the women who are ALSO paying into your health insurance. And preventing unplanned pregnancies isn't something single women do completely on their own... logically, there's a man on the other end who is also benefitting from that "high" premium. (And really, you're going to argue birth control pills are driving up your health insurance costs??) Car insurance rates and health care rates are no where near the same thing. You wanna complain about your high car insurance rates... blame other men in your age bracket who get into all those accidents. 10
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 Corrected it for you. You're welcome. I know. Blows your mind doesn't it? Parenthood isn't just a women's thing. I agree everyone is affected... and not always equally. How do you keep a straight face and tell a guy that he get's no choice in being a father or not, yet you can choose to stop being a mother at any point you wish? Pregnancy lasts 44 weeks... child support 1000. I'm in favor of more choices for everyone.
dasein Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 .... Right wind politicians are running around creating laws about how your employer could fire you if they discover you take contraceptive pills Outside of federally prohibited discrimination and a few other statutes, and outside of specifically negotiated employment contracts, employment in private companies in the United States is entirely a creature of state law, and generally terminable at will for any reason or no reason. Your employer can fire you for refusing to wear a clown hat at work, or simply because they don't like you, so long as that policy is enforced equally and not discriminatory. It has nothing to do with right wing politicians. The same analysis could be applied to your other "points," and serves to prove OP's point. Maybe try getting your news and current events from more objective sources. and you're claiming there's a large group of ANTI-MALE activists running around?? Victimization politics, painting women as an oppressed victim group, and men as a criminal oppressor group, has been business as usual in cementing the more gullible leftist portion of the female vote for some decades now. The formula is simple, 1) create some crisis by inflating existing statistics or simply making some up out of thin air, 2) offer a grab bag of "free" goodies (mandated corporate birth control for instance) as part of "fixing" the crisis, 3) dress it up as redressing a wrong so the true nature of the institutional theft doesn't offend the constituencies' conscience ("you -deserve- it, after being oppressed for so long). Rational people learn, usually through a lifetime of harsh experience, that a politician who comes to your door claiming to "do more for your group" and "save you from the bad guys" is in all likelihood selling snake oil. Not only are they lying about the menacing "bad guy," they won't actually deliver on any of their promises, because they have made identical promises to everyone else, maybe even painting -you- as the bad guy to other desired constituencies in the process. Thankfully, more and more women every year are waking up to being manipulated in this way, and more and more men are saying "e-f-ing-nuff." 1
verhrzn Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I agree everyone is affected... and not always equally. How do you keep a straight face and tell a guy that he get's no choice in being a father or not, yet you can choose to stop being a mother at any point you wish? Pregnancy lasts 44 weeks... child support 1000. I'm in favor of more choices for everyone. He has plenty of choice in being a father. It's called condoms. 1
aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 He has plenty of choice in being a father. It's called condoms. Or the snip snip. 1
verhrzn Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Or the snip snip. That too, though I respect a guy wanting to be a father at some point in the future just not right now... You know, like a woman doesn't always want to be a mother right now but does in the future.
dasein Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Corrected it for you. You're welcome. I know. Blows your mind doesn't it? Parenthood isn't just a women's thing. OMG that is the best news, so men can "opt out" now and have a window to declare whether they will support a child or not? men have equal say in whether a pregnancy is carried to term now? men will have equal treatment in custodial court proceedings? Men will have civil remedies available against women who commit paternity fraud? How could I have missed that? "fixed" indeed. 4
Anela Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I agree everyone is affected... and not always equally. How do you keep a straight face and tell a guy that he get's no choice in being a father or not, yet you can choose to stop being a mother at any point you wish? Pregnancy lasts 44 weeks... child support 1000. I'm in favor of more choices for everyone. Are you talking about putting a woman through a pregnancy, if the father wants the baby, even if she doesn't? Otherwise, it seems that he has a choice to use protection. This also has me wondering why they still haven't come out with a contraceptive pill for men to take.
aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Are you talking about putting a woman through a pregnancy, if the father wants the baby, even if she doesn't? Otherwise, it seems that he has a choice to use protection. This also has me wondering why they still haven't come out with a contraceptive pill for men to take. The male pill is still in clinical trials. If it weren't for the obscene amount of government red tape it'd probably already be out.
Anela Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) The male pill is still in clinical trials. If it weren't for the obscene amount of government red tape it'd probably already be out. I'm just wondering why they squeeze so many out for women, and managed to do it so long ago, but this is still caught up in clinical trials? I read some years back, that they were testing one around 2003 - was that in the netherlands? - and one-third of men just stopped reporting in. They weren't dead, and nobody was reporting ghastly side-effects. Edited March 22, 2012 by Anela
mostlyclueless Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I think it's hilarious that men insist on feeling persecuted for things like not being able to force a woman to have an abortion, not being able to force a woman to carry a baby to term, being stuck having to support their offspring, etc. Keep it up, guys. 3
aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I think it's hilarious that men insist on feeling persecuted for things like not being able to force a woman to have an abortion, not being able to force a woman to carry a baby to term, being stuck having to support their offspring, etc. Keep it up, guys. Haha well, many of us can just get a vasectomy (I'm actually considering it) that would solve the problem pretty well.
dasein Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I think it's hilarious that men insist on feeling persecuted for things like not being able to force a woman to have an abortion, not being able to force a woman to carry a baby to term, being stuck having to support their offspring, etc. Keep it up, guys. I think it's hilarious that the irrational half of humanity has sole power to determine whether something is considered an unwanted, parasitic invader one minute, or a precious gift from heaven requiring 18 years of involuntary servitude the next. 3
aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I think it's hilarious that the irrational half of humanity has sole power to determine whether something is considered an unwanted, parasitic invader one minute, or a precious gift from heaven requiring 18 years of involuntary servitude the next. Ain't "equality" grand?
verhrzn Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I think it's hilarious that the irrational half of humanity has sole power to determine whether something is considered an unwanted, parasitic invader one minute, or a precious gift from heaven requiring 18 years of involuntary servitude the next. A problem easily avoided by using a freaking condom, and/or strongly encouraging contraception use among females. (And there are other methods beyond the pill which have visible markers so you can be sure the woman you are voluntarily sticking yourself into isn't lying.)
mostlyclueless Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Just DON'T LET YOUR DICK COME INSIDE A VAGINA IF YOU DON'T WANT THAT VAGINA TO HAVE YOUR BABY. What's that thing Republicans are always talking about? Oh yeah, "personal responsibility"?
aj22one Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 A problem easily avoided by using a freaking condom, and/or strongly encouraging contraception use among females. (And there are other methods beyond the pill which have visible markers so you can be sure the woman you are voluntarily sticking yourself into isn't lying.) I think the point is that once there's a child there (which both parties agreed to take a chance on happening) only the woman gets to legally make any decisions regarding the unborn child, even though both parties will have consequences. As an anarchist, the legal question is irrelevant to me. But, in my view, both people should be a part of any decision process.
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 Birth control law in Arizona: Proposed AZ law would let women be fired for using the pill - Hot Topics - timesunion.com - Albany NY So this proves that men are trying to control your vagina? Companies that have a strong religious affiliation will often simply not provide any healthcare at all if required to do something that violates their religious beliefs. New Hampshire declares abortion causes breast cancer, sans scientific data: Abortion Causes Breast Cancer, New Hampshire House Declares There have been studies regarding a link between abortion and breast cancer since the 1950's. Few studies done either way have not been flawed, but some showed a potential correlation. Planned Parenthood makes 100 million a year and holds assets worth 1 billion, so they are very motivated to keep the abortions coming. Yet they also put a lot of effort into breast cancer screenings. Why? Because they believe there is a good chance of a link as well. They are afraid to get caught like Phillip Morris. So, while I am personally a skeptic... and would not agree with this law as written, if Planned Parenthood thinks it's possible... I'd say somebody should tell the patients. And an ultra sound CAN stop you from getting an abortion. Now you not only need to schedule time for the abortion procedure, but also for an ultrasound. More time off of work (which some women cannot afford), more money, more hoops to jump through... And the more hoops you have, the harder it is to jump through them. Considering some women have to travel out of state to even get the abortion procedure performed, an ultra sound pushes it off even further... And since time is of the essence, since many states have laws that abortions can only be performed within certain trimesters, you're looking at a very tight time table. Most states make you wait at least 3 months to get a divorce. Shouldn't you take some time to think about killing someone? Abortion clinics will provide those services... make money from them... then provide an abortion all within the same day. I know this because my company works with abortion clinics... and we will be selling them the Ultrasound machines. Win for everyone! Who travels out of state? and why? Furthermore, exactly WHY does the ultra sound need to occur? It makes absolutely no sense... unless, of course, it's to try to get the woman to change her mind. Or to shame her ("Look at what you're about to kill! LOOK AT IT"), or to throw up as many road blocks as possible and hope she gives up. Give me one logical or scientific reason a woman would need to examine an ultra sound of a baby she isn't going to have. I mean, what information can an ultra sound give you about "what you're about to do"? It's a life altering decision. Too many women have the abortion and then regret it later. When we execute somebody we have 11 years worth of appeals. The more you make these types of choices easy like a drive thru... the more people are going to regret an impulsive choice. I personally know an 18yo girl that changed her mind at clinic. She was afraid her BF would freak. Turns out he was stoked and proposed on the spot. They have been happily married for 4 years now. They both love the kid. Um... I have no idea where you get the idea that you somehow pay a higher premium than the women who are ALSO paying into your health insurance. And preventing unplanned pregnancies isn't something single women do completely on their own... logically, there's a man on the other end who is also benefitting from that "high" premium. (And really, you're going to argue birth control pills are driving up your health insurance costs??) Car insurance rates and health care rates are no where near the same thing. You wanna complain about your high car insurance rates... blame other men in your age bracket who get into all those accidents. Health insurance works the exact same as car insurance. Almost all insurance works the same way in fact. Pregnancy is not the only factor that drives up the cost of healthcare for women. Remember once the baby is born it has it's own policy. Women just spend more on healthcare in general. Again... not against the idea of evening things out. It's just very hypocritical to say its a giant big deal to make one gender pay more for something... yet not a big deal when the shoe is on the other foot.
verhrzn Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I'm also just a *wee* confused about the logic. So, some men (a large portion which probably overlap with Men's Rights groups) are angry that they have to pay child support... ya know, for the child they created who someone else is raising because they didn't wear protection. Okay, I can see some cause for bitterness there... but then it seems the SAME men are then upset with all the access women have to birth control. Ya know, the thing that would stop babies without needing a condom. Like, oh my gosh, their health care (which the women ALSO pay into) is covering contraception! That thing that would potentially prevent the male from paying child support. And... this same group of men also wants to LIMIT the right for the woman to decide to NOT have the baby. So, they don't want the woman to not have the baby (no access to birth control, no abortion) but they also want to be off the hook for child support? So, if I'm following the Mirror Land logic, women get to "determine whether something is considered an unwanted, parasitic invader one minute, or a precious gift from heaven requiring 18 years of involuntary servitude the next," and men get to decide that something is considered a precious gift requiring 9 months of physical labor followed by 18 years of involuntary servitude, and an unwanted parasite for 18 years. Do I have that right? 3
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