sad puppy Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Ok, I'm having a debate as to what is considered an emotional affair. Guy is unhappily married and meeting with an old female college friend, they had lost touch, and then reconnected on facebook. They meet alone for dinner & drinks, and definitely discuss his private and intimate issues. I think she may be in an ok marriage, not sure, she's been married 20 years with 3 kids. He values her opinion on things and says "she's sharp". I've asked plenty of guy friends if this is normal, do they do it, would they do it? Every single one said no way. I've asked my married girlfriends if they would allow this, is it normal, ... They said no way. So, what is it that really consitututes an emotional affair? To me, meeting privately, and discussing deeply personal & intimate issues about a spouse/SO is an emotional affair. I have plenty of close guy friends, where I've stood up in their weddings, went to college together, ... but I can't imagine going out to a private dinner with any of these guys, especially on a consistent basis and to discuss all my deepest feelings about relationships. But I thought I'd throw it out there and see what your opinions are on this issue? I may be off base but wanted feedback, thanks! Edited March 21, 2012 by sad puppy spelling
2sunny Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 If they met and it was a secret - then it isn't healthy. Anything said or done - that wouldn't NORMALLY be said or done if the spouse was present - is considered cheating. They were hiding their dinner meeting? If they were - then its considered cheating. 1
Author sad puppy Posted March 21, 2012 Author Posted March 21, 2012 If they met and it was a secret - then it isn't healthy. Anything said or done - that wouldn't NORMALLY be said or done if the spouse was present - is considered cheating. They were hiding their dinner meeting? If they were - then its considered cheating. I agree with this. I think it's violating the privacy element of a relationship to share/discuss those types of issues.
freestyle Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 For me, when my SO did this---discussing my most private issues with someone I didn't know, was the ultimate slap in the face. (and heart) I could have forgiven a drunken one-night stand more easily. Realizing that the man I loved essentially handed the OW a road map for pushing all of my buttons (which she did )and a blueprint for how to tear me down......was the most difficult aspect of the EA for me. I don't think he was expecting her to start messing with me--he was just sucking up attention, and playing the woe-is-me card. Whatever his motivations or intentions were---that was the deepest part of the betrayal for me. 4
Author sad puppy Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 For me, when my SO did this---discussing my most private issues with someone I didn't know, was the ultimate slap in the face. (and heart) I could have forgiven a drunken one-night stand more easily. Realizing that the man I loved essentially handed the OW a road map for pushing all of my buttons (which she did )and a blueprint for how to tear me down......was the most difficult aspect of the EA for me. I don't think he was expecting her to start messing with me--he was just sucking up attention, and playing the woe-is-me card. Whatever his motivations or intentions were---that was the deepest part of the betrayal for me. How was she messing with you? And I agree he was playing the "woe is me" card - not attractive, sort of manipulative as a ploy for attention.
Nextlane Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 A friend once told me, having an emotional fair is just as bad as physical - apparently worse?
standtall Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 The relationship is completely inappropriate and commonly leads to an affair. Married people should not discuss their marital problems with members of the opposite sex that are not family members or professionals...period. 6
whichwayisup Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Totally inappropriate and they are playing with fire. 2
Kidd Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 At minimum, it's pushing (more likely crossing) a boundary that shouldn't be crossed. This guy should read, Not Just Friends, before he has so much as one more dinner with this woman. I don't think most people see the danger. I was pretty liberal with my relationships with exes and gave my W full lattitude as well. Blind trust. Her A started with her boss, shortly after they started discussing their troubled marriages together. It's a very consistent pattern. And yeah, my gut says the guy's wife doesn't know about these dinners. 3
SandieBeach Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 If they met and it was a secret - then it isn't healthy. Anything said or done - that wouldn't NORMALLY be said or done if the spouse was present - is considered cheating. They were hiding their dinner meeting? If they were - then its considered cheating. I think this is an excellent rule of thumb. I told my husband the other day that if he wouldn't do or say certain things in front of me, then that means he is crossing boundaries. 1
HappyAtLast Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Regardless of what they may or may not be discussing, in our marriage my wife and I have followed the guideline that in any case, it is not appropriate for either one of us to have lunch or dinner alone with anyone of the opposite sex. I realize that it may sound a bit old-fashioned to some, but it has worked well for us all of these years. Simply not putting oneself into certain situations goes a long way towards keeping your marriage affair-resistant. These folks are definitely headed for trouble.
whichwayisup Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Regardless of what they may or may not be discussing, in our marriage my wife and I have followed the guideline that in any case, it is not appropriate for either one of us to have lunch or dinner alone with anyone of the opposite sex. I realize that it may sound a bit old-fashioned to some, but it has worked well for us all of these years. Simply not putting oneself into certain situations goes a long way towards keeping your marriage affair-resistant. These folks are definitely headed for trouble. I ask this with respect, but do you think that you and your wife have that rule, no going out for a meal with anyone from opposite sex because maybe deep down there's a trust issue between the two of you because your relationship and now marriage started out as an affair? Also, are you talking 'everybody' or just people of the opposite sex that neither of you have met?
HappyAtLast Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Good question and I would think that in many instances that would be a good reason to institute such a "rule." But, no, I would not say that we have had any trust issues during our marriage. She understood the circumstances under which I allowed myself to step out on my then wife and she was not willing to engage with me until I had take steps to end said marriage. I would not really call it a rule,though, in our case, it is just the way that we have chosen to conduct ourselves. To the best of my knowledge, neither of us have ever found it to be a sacrifice. We work(ed) in the same field, so we pretty much have known most of the folks in each other's lives but still have made it a point to not engage in social one-on-one activity with members of the opposite sex. Edited March 22, 2012 by HappyAtLast typographical mistakes 1
analystfromhell Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I'd say the line has already been crossed and having, like so many others here, suffered the devastating results of the loss of trust within the relationship which follows and continues to deepen over time, unless the people involved in the EA back out of it voluntarily the marriage is doomed. We've been in counselling for nine months and it's no better- she still has contact on a more than frequent basis than her other co-workers, she still lies about it, she's deceitful and defensive about it and I am about ready to just walk away from a huge investment of emotional capital. The loss of trust is just so terrible and the way it leads like other lies to more and more deceit and hurt really makes it so difficult to pull out of. It's the hiding and lies which are at the heart of the hurt even more than the act itself. 1
Kidd Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I'd say the line has already been crossed and having, like so many others here, suffered the devastating results of the loss of trust within the relationship which follows and continues to deepen over time, unless the people involved in the EA back out of it voluntarily the marriage is doomed. We've been in counselling for nine months and it's no better- she still has contact on a more than frequent basis than her other co-workers, she still lies about it, she's deceitful and defensive about it and I am about ready to just walk away from a huge investment of emotional capital. The loss of trust is just so terrible and the way it leads like other lies to more and more deceit and hurt really makes it so difficult to pull out of. It's the hiding and lies which are at the heart of the hurt even more than the act itself. I agree that the physical acts may be forgivable but the continued lying while we are obviously hypervigilant...Really?!
analystfromhell Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I agree that the physical acts may be forgivable but the continued lying while we are obviously hypervigilant...Really?! Yes, absolutely. She several times agreed to NC, only to not abide by it (and they work together, AND the guy's wife knows about it), she put a lock on her phone, added back his contact info and started texting- innocuous business related stuff but we had agreed NC and it rapidly developed into suggestions he come to work on the weekend when she was there, no telling me he'd be on a business trip, and so on. Telling me and the MC she was taking birthcontrol when she wasn't and even lying about the reasons and so on. Much of it is me no doubt- I clearly suck at relationships and dealing with emotions and people, unconsciously and consciously but lying, deceit and hypocracy are just no goes for me and it's a huge struggle for me to just not walk away- every fibre of my body wants to while at the same time I just wish it would work so as to validate my ability to have a relationship. Sorry for what's probably TMI. SO yeah, I'd say continuing to lie and deceive about it is absolutely typical. Even discussing it results in defensiveness and blame shifting. Part of it is likely just my wife's make-up and the state of what's left of our marriage but I'm guessing it's pretty typical behaviour. Edited March 22, 2012 by analystfromhell
ComputerJock Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Have you told her husband of her actions, he may not know about it either, and may not like his wife having a secret meeting/dinner with your man.
Kidd Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Yes, absolutely. She several times agreed to NC, only to not abide by it (and they work together, AND the guy's wife knows about it), she put a lock on her phone, added back his contact info and started texting- innocuous business related stuff but we had agreed NC and it rapidly developed into suggestions he come to work on the weekend when she was there, no telling me he'd be on a business trip, and so on. Telling me and the MC she was taking birthcontrol when she wasn't and even lying about the reasons and so on. Much of it is me no doubt- I clearly suck at relationships and dealing with emotions and people, unconsciously and consciously but lying, deceit and hypocracy are just no goes for me and it's a huge struggle for me to just not walk away- every fibre of my body wants to while at the same time I just wish it would work so as to validate my ability to have a relationship. Sorry for what's probably TMI. SO yeah, I'd say continuing to lie and deceive about it is absolutely typical. Even discussing it results in defensiveness and blame shifting. Part of it is likely just my wife's make-up and the state of what's left of our marriage but I'm guessing it's pretty typical behaviour. Oh, I hear you. My W pulled the same crap. Tried to hide her breach of NC (not sure why I stayed after that one). You should get out of there, bro. I started healing almost instantly. I'm just amazed they keep doing it when they know we're watching. Two words...exit affair.
Author sad puppy Posted March 22, 2012 Author Posted March 22, 2012 Oh, I hear you. My W pulled the same crap. Tried to hide her breach of NC (not sure why I stayed after that one). You should get out of there, bro. I started healing almost instantly. I'm just amazed they keep doing it when they know we're watching. Two words...exit affair. Are you recommending having an exit affair or stating that the emotional affair is/will turn into an exit affair? Sorry, I'm confused!
Kidd Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Are you recommending having an exit affair or stating that the emotional affair is/will turn into an exit affair? Sorry, I'm confused! My apologies. I guess Analyst and I jacked your thread for a moment. I try not to do that. I think both of our wives had exit affairs. A tangent related to lying (and how it continues). Wow, we got off topic. Sorry.
Author sad puppy Posted March 23, 2012 Author Posted March 23, 2012 My apologies. I guess Analyst and I jacked your thread for a moment. I try not to do that. I think both of our wives had exit affairs. A tangent related to lying (and how it continues). Wow, we got off topic. Sorry. No problem, I was following what you guys were saying. I like the meanderings that the threads take, it's all helpful. I understand, for a minute, I was like, wait a minute - "two words - exit affair". I thought maybe you were suggesting that as a course of action to analyst, haha!
jnj express Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Had Sad---let me ask YOU this---if this were your wife of 20 yrs, and she was out with an old flame having dinner and drinks---what would YOU do/think about it---it doesn't even matter what they were talking about ----just her out with another man to dinner and drinks, and you didn't know---what would you do??????
findingnemo Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 I've had dinner with my old flames...I even have a couple as my business partners. Did I discuss intimate stuff with them about my M? I did. I needed advice about things my H said and did. I didn't understand and my friends actually helped me realize that I was over-reacting most of the time. To me, I needed advice from a man because 1) my girlfriends tend to react just like I would and just don't "get" men, and 2) my guy friends don't ask for the juicy details - I never feel like I'm gossiping about myself. Here's the thing...my Rs with these guys were never secret. They'd come home and have drinks with my H and I. At no time were there any text messages that were not business related or about our kids or anything that needed to be hidden. Yes we sometimes discussed personal issues but it was always with the intention of seeking and giving each other help. I sincerely believe that one can have genuine friends of the opposite sex. It really just depends on your personal boundaries. How can one claim to be friends with someone they hide? That's a red flag right there.
standtall Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 I've had dinner with my old flames...I even have a couple as my business partners. Did I discuss intimate stuff with them about my M? I did. I needed advice about things my H said and did. I didn't understand and my friends actually helped me realize that I was over-reacting most of the time. To me, I needed advice from a man because 1) my girlfriends tend to react just like I would and just don't "get" men, and 2) my guy friends don't ask for the juicy details - I never feel like I'm gossiping about myself. Here's the thing...my Rs with these guys were never secret. They'd come home and have drinks with my H and I. At no time were there any text messages that were not business related or about our kids or anything that needed to be hidden. Yes we sometimes discussed personal issues but it was always with the intention of seeking and giving each other help. I sincerely believe that one can have genuine friends of the opposite sex. It really just depends on your personal boundaries. How can one claim to be friends with someone they hide? That's a red flag right there. I disagree with 100% of what you wrote above. I would disrespect my wife that way, nor tolerate it from her.
findingnemo Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 I disagree with 100% of what you wrote above. I would disrespect my wife that way, nor tolerate it from her. Disrespect her how exactly? Not tolerate what exactly? Your W having male friends? You can't be serious unless you read intimate to mean sexual. When I say intimate things I mean things that cause us a disagreement eg. My H didn't like a couple of my gfs. I thought it wasn't his place to choose friends for me. My guy friend explained to me why he thought my H objected and I understood. Something about their history and "birds of a feather..." Such a thing is intimate because it's about my M. You do realize that men and women have a different way of communicating, don't you? I don't get it. Cheating is not something that just happens to people. They make a conscious decision to do it. Is it really true that most people don't have friends of the opposite sex? Really? I find that hard to understand or to believe. Also I find it ridiculous when people say they had an A because the other person was an old flame. Oh no, it was because they wanted to have an A, period.
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