RedRobin Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Lying and irresponsibility and cancellations and dragging on and on...It sounds like you've had your heart ripped out and stomped on. Repeatedly. As someone said a few pages ago. It just sounds like you have a different view of dating than "multi-daters" as you call them (as apposed to single-daters, I guess). I see dating as fun. I'm meeting attractive people, I'm going fun places, learning new things about new people, and one day a woman will like me as much as I like her, and we'll decide to stay together long term. And I think you see dating as solely a vehicle for finding one specific person. An excruciating exercise with only one use. And if you don't find that person, then the dating experience was a failure. But really, I'm learning that I'm not going to change my opinion about dating and you're not either. So this becomes one of those Democrats vs. Republicans situations where both sides dig in their heels and refuse to acknowledge any qualities in the other side. Please don't get carried away with the analogy and start jumping to conclusions. I meant what I said before. I don't see multidating as path to creating intimacy and trust. I agree with you about the Dems vs Republicans though. I don't think our goal here was to convert anyoone. Just have a discussion about why some people go down one path vs another.
oaks Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Which is exactly the point. Most people here aren't complaining about multidating when done over a short period (a few weeks) and when there is an agreed upon decision period. Perhaps I was stretching the analogy too far to make a point about those who seem to expect dating exclusivity, without discussing it, from the first date. That seems to be pretty much the other end of the scale from the extreme description/assumptions about multi-daters that I keep reading about (but don't recognise).
zengirl Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Which is exactly the point. Most people here aren't complaining about multidating when done over a short period (a few weeks) and when there is an agreed upon decision period. They are complaining about lying about it and all of the other irresponsible behaviors that go with juggling numerous 'jobs' and job offers. Canceling appointments, sucking up for free stuff for jobs you aren't really interested in, that drags on and on. Not really true. You've failed to make the distinction between multi-dating with lying and multi-dating without, though I've prompted you several times to make it. If you re-read, your complaints are not about cancelling appointments or lies; they're about someone who dates differently than you have with no allowance or distinction that someone may not need to lie at all to do so! That's what we talked about for several pages! FWIW, frankly, I think the employment analogy doesn't work because unless I have a contract with my employer (which I do now and have in the past), I'm certainly not going to refuse other meetings or offers without hearing them out simply because I'm employed. Not in a right to work state! My work experience has been: They have the right to lay me off without notice, yet I'd still give them the professional courtesy of 2 weeks notice at least in all cases. We're not exactly dealing with equal partners. This is why I prefer jobs with an actual employment contract, as I have now, though they're rare in the U.S. And, of course, with dating there's no agreed-upon "decision period." The decision period happens when one or both people feel ready to bring it up, and that can be at any time or never. Unlike a job seeker (well I suppose job seekers who are VERY sought after maybe can), you have total freedom to bring it up yourself rather than wait for the other party to take the lead! 1
PlumPrincess Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Too long, didn't read the whole thread, but can someone give me a clear definition what "dating" and "multi-dating" mean? Dating as I understand it means going out on dates with the same person in order to get to know them better. It may include a physcial component, although usually when I hear a guy say he is dating someone I assume he is sleeping with her without being in a real relationship. If there is nothing going on between them, he probably would say that he went out on a couple of dates with her. And multi-dating is the same thing, but with various people. Or is multi-dating also when you check out various people at the same time instead of focusing on one person after another?
zengirl Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Too long, didn't read the whole thread, but can someone give me a clear definition what "dating" and "multi-dating" mean? Dating as I understand it means going out on dates with the same person in order to get to know them better. It may include a physcial component, although usually when I hear a guy say he is dating someone I assume he is sleeping with her without being in a real relationship. If there is nothing going on between them, he probably would say that he went out on a couple of dates with her. And multi-dating is the same thing, but with various people. Or is multi-dating also when you check out various people at the same time instead of focusing on one person after another? I consider multi-dating just to be "dating" myself, but for the context of this thread: dating: going on dates, seeing one person at a time, entertaining no other offers until you've decided one way or another about that person multi-dating: going on dates, seeing whomever you wish to date (meets your criteria/wants to go out with you/etc), not continuing to date those you're truly not interested in, and seeing one person only once you've decided you are truly interested in that person and want to be exclusive with them
oaks Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Too long, didn't read the whole thread, but can someone give me a clear definition what "dating" and "multi-dating" mean? Not definitively, which may be part of the problem.
RedRobin Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Not really true. You've failed to make the distinction between multi-dating with lying and multi-dating without, though I've prompted you several times to make it. If you re-read, your complaints are not about cancelling appointments or lies; they're about someone who dates differently than you have with no allowance or distinction that someone may not need to lie at all to do so! That's what we talked about for several pages! FWIW, frankly, I think the employment analogy doesn't work because unless I have a contract with my employer (which I do now and have in the past), I'm certainly not going to refuse other meetings or offers without hearing them out simply because I'm employed. Not in a right to work state! My work experience has been: They have the right to lay me off without notice, yet I'd still give them the professional courtesy of 2 weeks notice at least in all cases. We're not exactly dealing with equal partners. This is why I prefer jobs with an actual employment contract, as I have now, though they're rare in the U.S. And, of course, with dating there's no agreed-upon "decision period." The decision period happens when one or both people feel ready to bring it up, and that can be at any time or never. Unlike a job seeker (well I suppose job seekers who are VERY sought after maybe can), you have total freedom to bring it up yourself rather than wait for the other party to take the lead! There is no distinction to make. You can't multidate indefinately without lying or being open about it. And yes, I did make the distinction. I said those who are open about dating multiple people seem to resemble those who lean towards polyamory... at least in the short term. Not sure why you can't just suck it up and realize that the experience that led you to your H was NOT a multidater experience... and that maybe, just maybe... the fact that you stopped seeing other men a few weeks after meeting your H... and that he also wasn't seeing other people is MORE responsible for the success of your now relationship than ANY of this so-called multidater BS you seem to be hanging onto for dear life. You were able to establish a sense of intimacy and trust early in your meetings with each other that you sustained by... duh... not dating other people.
RedRobin Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Multidating: Dating more than one person at a time. With or without full disclosure of such to the people they are dating simultaneously. The thread originally started because the OP wasn't happy about her experience with OLD... and the experience of multidating which seems to be the 'norm' in OLD.
kaylan Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 There is no distinction to make. You can't multidate indefinately without lying or being open about it. http://i.qkme.me/35p1ys.jpg Another swing and a miss by RR
oaks Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Not definitively, which may be part of the problem. But I'll try at a minimum definition. Dating is a process of going on dates. Multi-Dating is where a person is Dating more than one person. By "dating more than one person" I mean that after having a date with a person and before having the next date with that same person there is at least one date with at least one other person. I know (from reading this, and other, threads) that some people think that multi-dating is more complicated and includes other things, but does anyone disagree with what I've said as a base definition (onto which we may or may not agree to add other things)?
oaks Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Multidating: Dating more than one person at a time. With or without full disclosure of such to the people they are dating simultaneously. It's also with or without wearing a hat with bells on; I'm not sure that mentioning full disclosure is part of the definition.
RedRobin Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 http://i.qkme.me/35p1ys.jpg Another swing and a miss by RR ha ha.. I guess you don't know what the definition of lying is then... Here, let me help you out... Lie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
RedRobin Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 It's also with or without wearing a hat with bells on; I'm not sure that mentioning full disclosure is part of the definition. Of course not. Apparently it is the job of the person who is not multidating to squeeze the truth out of a multidater.... not the multidater's job to disclose their multidating. Hence my disgust.
kaylan Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) ha ha.. I guess you don't know what the definition of lying is then... Here, let me help you out... Lie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Your previous statement is still false. For people such as myself, Im capable of multidating just fine without ever lying. I believe in honesty. Also, as has been said before, multidating is entirely different from polyamory. Get your ish straight. Edited March 25, 2012 by kaylan
oaks Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Of course not. Apparently it is the job of the person who is not multidating to squeeze the truth out of a multidater.... not the multidater's job to disclose their multidating. Hence my disgust. You do talk rubbish sometimes.
RedRobin Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Your previous statement is still false. For people such as myself, Im capable of multidating just fine without ever lying. I believe in honesty. Also, as has been said before, multidating is entirely different from polyamory. Get your ish straight. If you are pursuing romantic connections with multiple people over an extended period, then I see no difference between you and someone who is polyamorous.
RedRobin Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 You do talk rubbish sometimes. I'm sorry you are having a hard time understanding why those who don't multidate have a problem with those who do.
kaylan Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 If you are pursuing romantic connections with multiple people over an extended period, then I see no difference between you and someone who is polyamorous. Whats so hard to understand? Polyamory is having more than one committed romantic relationship at once. Multidating is going out on casual dates with more than one person, usually in the hopes of selecting ONE of them to commit to. Big difference. Stop being dense.
zengirl Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 There is no distinction to make. You can't multidate indefinately without lying or being open about it. I imagine you could easily multi-date indefinitely without lying about it, though I imagine one would tire of dating altogether if it were indefinite. *shrugs* And one probably cannot multi-date and see a particular person indefinitely, regardless of lying or not lying, as eventually you either stop seeing someone or move to greater commitment. At least most people do. I don't know anyone who seeks to date the same person without commitment indefinitely, personally. And yes, I did make the distinction. I said those who are open about dating multiple people seem to resemble those who lean towards polyamory... at least in the short term. I missed that you distinguished non-lying MDs that way. That's also a bizarre thing to say, IMO. I would never be in a poly situation, don't lie, and have multi-dated. Most multi-daters are not seeking poly relationships. They are seeking monogamous relationships -- just not ready to decide about a person from Date #1. Not sure why you can't just suck it up and realize that the experience that led you to your H was NOT a multidater experience... and that maybe, just maybe... the fact that you stopped seeing other men a few weeks after meeting your H... and that he also wasn't seeing other people is MORE responsible for the success of your now relationship than ANY of this so-called multidater BS you seem to be hanging onto for dear life. I've already said that when you do feel a connection to someone and want to build something serious that you should probably focus on that one person. What I disagree with you on is that it should be from Date #1 or any pre-determined point. I think that connection comes when it comes, and that people should be honest with each other but that exclusivity from early on seems, to me, to be rushed and against the norm. The fact that hubby didn't want to see anyone else does not mean he shares views similar to yours, for instance. He had no problem with the fact that I dated several men around the same time I met him -- in fact, it probably soothed him to know that I wasn't just looking for ANY relationship but the right one. I multi-dated. I dated more than one person at a time, prior to deciding to commit to one person. That's what multi-dating is. I don't know why you feel entitled to tell me how I dated. I can guess at why you feel the need -- it doesn't fit the schema you've set out -- but it's really inappropriate and rude for you to continue doing so. You were able to establish a sense of intimacy and trust early in your meetings with each other that you sustained by... duh... not dating other people. That's not really the sole reason we worked out. Obviously, if we'd not been compelled to commit to each other at some point, it wouldn't have worked out. No one is disagreeing that, for a relationship to work out long-term, there needs to be exclusivity and commitment at some point. The distinction is whether one believes you should give exclusivity (seeing only one person at a time) prior to at least thoughts of commitment (knowing you want a serious relationship with that person, even if you're not willing to express and assert that desire). And whether you can expect others to date the way you do. But I'll try at a minimum definition. Dating is a process of going on dates. Multi-Dating is where a person is Dating more than one person. By "dating more than one person" I mean that after having a date with a person and before having the next date with that same person there is at least one date with at least one other person. I know (from reading this, and other, threads) that some people think that multi-dating is more complicated and includes other things, but does anyone disagree with what I've said as a base definition (onto which we may or may not agree to add other things)? Seems reasonable to me. Of course not. Apparently it is the job of the person who is not multidating to squeeze the truth out of a multidater.... not the multidater's job to disclose their multidating. Hence my disgust. Is saying, "Do you believe in dating more than one person at a time?" or "Are you seeing or planning to see others while we're dating?" squeezing the truth out of someone? Personally, I wouldn't even ask it as a question, if I had your need for exclusivity from Date #1. I'd just state, "I don't believe in dating others while dating you, so I will give you my full attention while dating until I decide not to see you anymore, and I would only like to date people who feel the same way," or whatever it is you want from a person. Expressing an expectation when you have one is the norm. From the POV of a multidater, they are just dating and they don't have any expectation to express, so why would they express it? The person dating several people certainly shouldn't HIDE it from the other person deliberately, but it is just good manners not to talk about past dates on present dates so they probably will not.
oaks Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 I'm sorry you are having a hard time understanding why those who don't multidate have a problem with those who do. No, I don't think I have a problem with that. Almost everyone has deal-breakers, and I support your right to feel disgusted by multi-dating.
RedRobin Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Whats so hard to understand? Polyamory is having more than one committed romantic relationship at once. Multidating is going out on casual dates with more than one person, usually in the hopes of selecting ONE of them to commit to. Hmm.. how would they go about getting those 'committed' romantic relationships? From thin air? No. They pursue them casually.. Sometimes they end up becoming 'committed'. Sometimes they don't. And no, they don't 'commit' to all or necessarily even one. They just commit to being open about the pursuit of multiple romantic connections. Which is exactly what you are doing. Sorry if you don't like the label.
silvermercy Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 I'll revisit the job interview analogy as I've been part of job interview panel. The job panel will usually ask the interviewee if he has applied to any other jobs. His/her answer is indicative of how serious he/she is about the job. The problem is many interviewees lie about their other applications. They usually say it's none or very few. That's not the case most of the times. They've, in fact, done a lot of applications, sometimes in the same department, so they're caught as their names are in the computer system. LOL I also know it from personal experience because in the past I had done the same. I had minimized my job application number when asked - and of course never volunteered it. In others words, I was multi-applying but I hid the fact from the perspective employer because I was keeping my options open. No problem with that, though, you'll say, however if the employer is not sure about your honesty, he may pass you for another candidate, equally qualified (but way more honest, serious and, most importantly, enthusiastic about getting that particular job offer). So, I think it's the same with multi-dating. As a side note, I've also done the multi-sending of my CV to many employers but with no great results. Once I got specific enough though, I was constantly invited for interviews. One at a time of course. 1
RedRobin Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 I imagine you could easily multi-date indefinitely without lying about it, though I imagine one would tire of dating altogether if it were indefinite. *shrugs* And one probably cannot multi-date and see a particular person indefinitely, regardless of lying or not lying, as eventually you either stop seeing someone or move to greater commitment. At least most people do. I don't know anyone who seeks to date the same person without commitment indefinitely, personally. I missed that you distinguished non-lying MDs that way. That's also a bizarre thing to say, IMO. I would never be in a poly situation, don't lie, and have multi-dated. Most multi-daters are not seeking poly relationships. They are seeking monogamous relationships -- just not ready to decide about a person from Date #1. I've already said that when you do feel a connection to someone and want to build something serious that you should probably focus on that one person. What I disagree with you on is that it should be from Date #1 or any pre-determined point. I think that connection comes when it comes, and that people should be honest with each other but that exclusivity from early on seems, to me, to be rushed and against the norm. The fact that hubby didn't want to see anyone else does not mean he shares views similar to yours, for instance. He had no problem with the fact that I dated several men around the same time I met him -- in fact, it probably soothed him to know that I wasn't just looking for ANY relationship but the right one. I multi-dated. I dated more than one person at a time, prior to deciding to commit to one person. That's what multi-dating is. I don't know why you feel entitled to tell me how I dated. I can guess at why you feel the need -- it doesn't fit the schema you've set out -- but it's really inappropriate and rude for you to continue doing so. That's not really the sole reason we worked out. Obviously, if we'd not been compelled to commit to each other at some point, it wouldn't have worked out. No one is disagreeing that, for a relationship to work out long-term, there needs to be exclusivity and commitment at some point. The distinction is whether one believes you should give exclusivity (seeing only one person at a time) prior to at least thoughts of commitment (knowing you want a serious relationship with that person, even if you're not willing to express and assert that desire). And whether you can expect others to date the way you do. Seems reasonable to me. Is saying, "Do you believe in dating more than one person at a time?" or "Are you seeing or planning to see others while we're dating?" squeezing the truth out of someone? Personally, I wouldn't even ask it as a question, if I had your need for exclusivity from Date #1. I'd just state, "I don't believe in dating others while dating you, so I will give you my full attention while dating until I decide not to see you anymore, and I would only like to date people who feel the same way," or whatever it is you want from a person. Expressing an expectation when you have one is the norm. From the POV of a multidater, they are just dating and they don't have any expectation to express, so why would they express it? The person dating several people certainly shouldn't HIDE it from the other person deliberately, but it is just good manners not to talk about past dates on present dates so they probably will not. Lots of pages of text here... the best way to avoid a multidater is simply to avoid OLD in the first place. IRL, there really aren't these issues.
silvermercy Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 I'd like to add this (I couldn't edit my previous post): The fact that there are people appalled or even disgusted by multi-dating, and not the other way round, speaks volumes. I have never encountered a multi-dater who would be appalled at the thought of dating a single-dater. They would either be indifferent or even pleased actually. The reverse exists though, and thus, it speaks volumes about the problems arising from an arrangement like multi-dating.
oaks Posted March 25, 2012 Posted March 25, 2012 Lots of pages of text here... the best way to avoid a multidater is simply to avoid OLD in the first place. IRL, there really aren't these issues. Just to clue you in on something: I do OLD, and I also meet people IRL. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does this. You may need to reconsider whether multi-dating is really non-existent in other forms of dating. 2
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