zengirl Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Are people essentially good or bad? I feel like everyone primarily acts in their own self interests... even things that seem altruistic often come down to selfish motives. People are essentially concerned with their own self-interest, and I would argue they should be (enlightened self-interest is actually a concept in Buddhism I very much enjoy). The problem is they should not be concerned with their SHORT TERM self-interest because that does not lead to long-term happiness. Someone who acts from enlightened self-interest would also have the feelings and concerns of other people in mind to a healthy degree (not to the degree where they are a doormat, etc) because they understand that better results come from cooperating than competing. I am very altruistic, but I do such things because I do believe it is good for me as well as others. I do not think that altruism that comes from a totally selfless place is actually trustworthy---someone who cannot see good to themselves coming from good to others is going to resent the selfless gesture. And if you can see good to yourself coming from good to others then it's not selfless---it's just a more enlightened form of self-interest. 2
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted March 19, 2012 Author Posted March 19, 2012 People are essentially concerned with their own self-interest, and I would argue they should be (enlightened self-interest is actually a concept in Buddhism I very much enjoy). The problem is they should not be concerned with their SHORT TERM self-interest because that does not lead to long-term happiness. Someone who acts from enlightened self-interest would also have the feelings and concerns of other people in mind to a healthy degree (not to the degree where they are a doormat, etc) because they understand that better results come from cooperating than competing. The worlds resources are finite. At some point even long term cooperation runs into that wall. Look at every communist country. Those in charge have served themselves best by taking the resources of others and setting themselves up as overlords. Killed nearly 200 million people last century... yet the idea still thrives. So... I would modify what you said to state that it's best to cooperate together in order to compete. Otherwise the point of cooperation is greatly reduced. I am very altruistic, but I do such things because I do believe it is good for me as well as others. I do not think that altruism that comes from a totally selfless place is actually trustworthy---someone who cannot see good to themselves coming from good to others is going to resent the selfless gesture. And if you can see good to yourself coming from good to others then it's not selfless---it's just a more enlightened form of self-interest. Altruism dies in the dark. It's primarily a self congratulatory action used to boost yourself in the eyes of other people. Some exceptions of course.
xxoo Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Altruism dies in the dark. It's primarily a self congratulatory action used to boost yourself in the eyes of other people. Some exceptions of course. Even in the dark, we know our own actions. We can boost or destroy our own self image by what we do when no one is looking. 1
zengirl Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 The worlds resources are finite. At some point even long term cooperation runs into that wall. Look at every communist country. Those in charge have served themselves best by taking the resources of others and setting themselves up as overlords. Killed nearly 200 million people last century... yet the idea still thrives. So... I would modify what you said to state that it's best to cooperate together in order to compete. Otherwise the point of cooperation is greatly reduced. Do you really think those are true examples of cooperation? If you do, I feel sad for you. The problem is the people in those states still wanted to compete. At any rate, I'm not discussing political or economic structures. At any rate, I don't trust a society that's communist any more than one that's too heavily capitalist (I think mixed market structures, like many European countries have, serve cooperation best FWIW). I was speaking to the more basic meanings of the words---you either approach the world with the mindset that you're competing with the people around you or that you'd like to cooperate with them. I try to cooperate. That's not to say that I let people mistreat me (I also don't compete with those people; I just disengage) but I don't view anything in the world as particularly scarce or worth competing for (in a mindset sense). When we cooperate together, life is better. Even if you don't see that overall, I'm sure you see it in a relationship at the very least. Altruism dies in the dark. It's primarily a self congratulatory action used to boost yourself in the eyes of other people. Some exceptions of course. Exceptions abound, IME. I live in the world of altruism. I raise money for a foundation, solicit for volunteers, and run a foundation to increase literacy rates and reduce social problems among at-risk children and teens. When I seek donations, I don't expect people to donate selflessly. There are many reasons for them to donate, everything from tax breaks to boosting themselves in the eyes of other people, sure, but the real reason I hope people will donate is to improve our community at large. The only reason people don't want to help other people is because they believe there is some grand separation from them and those people. Really, we're all a part of the same community---when I help someone, I often help myself. I don't mean in a transactional, tit-for-tat, easy-to-see way, but in an overall sense. Anyway, most people who help us seem to engage with that mindset and the mindset of cooperation when it's presented to them. What they sincerely feel, I cannot know, but when I present that argument, I do very well with improving our fundraising. I truly believe most people could operate from enlightened self-interest and act good most of the time (though many actions are morally gray anyway) and cooperate with those around them, but it all depends what they're socialized to do and whether or not they're too afraid to do it. Typically, the only reason why people choose to compete instead of cooperate is fear. 1
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted March 19, 2012 Author Posted March 19, 2012 Love. I'm not sure 'if' you do either. Maybe you're just feeling a bit nervous because everything is going very well for you and you're just a bit scared something will ruin it. Try to look forward to what good may come in the future, versus bad. Hahaha... Love conquers all right? What the hell is love anyway? Maybe I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's funny because relationships cause baggage and damage. Here I am nearly 3 years later still trying to deal with crap from before. Sure it's probably just a tiny thing... but it's in the back of my head and won't go away. I think that the primary goal is: survive. But even that glitches up sometimes. I also believe that part of surviving is ensuring survival of the group as well. But some things fall outside of that, like adopting children that were someone else's, just pure nature wouldn't have that so much. There seems to be a heavy internal drive to either help & save or just completely shame & pummel the weaker people. Don't know. I know that being "selfish" is hard for a lot of people but easier for others. I just may not be great at articulating it. I pretty much agree with you. I'm just at a point where I can't really believe in the good will of my fellow people. Especially when it comes to relationships. It all devolves into a struggle. Even adopting children is a selfish act in most situations.
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted March 19, 2012 Author Posted March 19, 2012 Congratulations on the engagement next year, UF. I'm curious about which poster you used to be now! Thanks. I would guess that it was before your time. I've been around since about 2005. I take long vacations. Even in the dark, we know our own actions. We can boost or destroy our own self image by what we do when no one is looking. I like to believe that... I've just seen too many people who's self image seems immune to ill treating others.
Oxy Moronovich Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Are people essentially good or bad? I'd say people are essentially selfish creatures that work toward goals they believe benefit them the most.
snug.bunny Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 Hahaha... Love conquers all right? What the hell is love anyway? Maybe I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's funny because relationships cause baggage and damage. Here I am nearly 3 years later still trying to deal with crap from before. Sure it's probably just a tiny thing... but it's in the back of my head and won't go away. Yes! Ah, maybe you just need a gentle swift across the head to snap out of it! Even adopting children is a selfish act in most situations.Heck if you view it that way, so is having a child! This reminds me of an episode on Friends, when Joey and Phoebe debated the very same topic:
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