jwi71 Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 I still think "we" are jumping the gun here. Again I challenge: what do you know for a fact about this whole email. Not guesses. Not gut feelings (which can be very important no doubt). What facts do you have? An EA from 7 years ago. What else? And speaking of which, did that EA end during/after MC? Is it possible he didn't realize it was an EA until after the fact? Did he end it then? And yes, some people don't an EA is an A. Aside from an EA 7 years ago, what makes you think he would cheat again? Sorry, the email, for me, is insufficient.
MissBee Posted March 19, 2012 Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I agree with you in principle, MissBee, but here is the reality. Ninety percent of the time when a spouse does suspect cheating, they find it. Sad, but true. If you confront a spouse who is cheating, they arrogantly dismiss all your projections.....as opposed to reassuring you. It's called gaslighting and it works very well on the innocent and unsuspecting. It also enables the spouse, if they are IN FACT cheating or trying to, to go underground. I find the email questionable in that you were not informed of it immediately but discovered it on your own. I also find it questionable in that there seems to have been a series of communication that preceded it, again which you knew nothing about. I believe accidental or intentional communication with former bfs or gfs, especially when they start to wane sappy about being greatful for your marriage and children, should be disclosed to your spouse immediately. Get the GPS. He may be totally innocent or not, but emailing old gfs regarding the state of one's marriage is a huge red flag that someone is finding it comfortable to discuss issues within the marriage to someone outside the marriage. And he did not sleep with the most beautiful girl in the world to preserve his marriage is truly a back-handed slap of a compliment.....sigh....how noble of him. If your spouse arrogantly dismisses it...I feel like that tells something too. You can read what someone is saying and not saying. The point for me is that if you suspect they are cheating...you don't just suspect it out of nowhere...something leads to that suspicion and THAT something is where the problem has started. After you get GPS, keylogging etc...then what? When you confirm your suspicion, what next? OR in the case where you're wrong and nothing is going on and you've gone ahead and done that, then what? The bottom line is there will still be a problem to address... finding or not finding anything doesn't mean there is no issue, the issue already started, so for me, I'd rather skip to that step of addressing the issue that led to me having to do all that. That is, I am suspicious, I do not feel secure, I saw this email...what are we going to do in light of this? My suspicion and insecurity is where we have a problem...it is not in what I then find after doing all that other stuff, me feeling the need to do that stuff is the problem. At least ask, that is communication...give the person the opportunity to lie or tell the truth and for you to guage it. But cheaters do the same thing,....they ASSUME your response, they assume you won't like what they have to say, assume this and that so assume it is better they have a secret affair because "they know" you will or won't do something. On either end it's horrible communication and people assuming instead of communicating. I can't support that. I am of the mind that I need to come to you and give you the chance to lie to my face... if I am married to you, chances are I can read your reaction, what you say and/or don't say. But in any case, it's not just about "hey are you cheating?" it's about "hey I don't feel right about xyz....how can we move forward?" My not feeling right, whether it is because of something imaginary or real, is the issue. They don't even need to be in an A....if we're not on the same page and I feel alienated whether it is because of your A or you work a lot or you don't have sex with me etc...that's the problem. If they choose not to change anything to improve how I feel and the security of the relationship....then that's a whole other problem. But I believe the spouse who never allows that opportunity to air out their feelings and who does not try to communicate at signs of mistrust but instead employ covert tactics because of what they think the other person will/won't do is making a choice for that person that they should not.... just like the WS who often makes choices for the BS. They are one and the same IMO and both come from spouses not communicating and/or assuming. If upon broaching the subject and both of you trying to ameliorate the issue you still feel doubtful or they are not forthright and you continue to feel suspicious...then fine...go ahead and get proof. But for it to be your first resort....what kind of relationship is that? I think that should be a last resort...and should be a sign of how far things have deteriorated...but in a healthy relationship, that should not be your first resort. Edited March 19, 2012 by MissBee
jwi71 Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 If your spouse arrogantly dismisses it...I feel like that tells something too. You can read what someone is saying and not saying. The point for me is that if you suspect they are cheating...you don't just suspect it out of nowhere...something leads to that suspicion and THAT something is where the problem has started. Yes, and that something is a cheating spouse and that "sense" that something is amiss. When pressed, most WS simply lie...its my job, stress, health...anything BUT the truth. Thats the insidious part of it. The BS has no way of knowing WHAT the truth is. Maybe the spouse is truly stressed at work and working long hours. And maybe not. The one that IS certain, if the spouse IS cheating...and admission is not likely. There is no reasonable way, in reality, for a BS to divine what is wrong if what is wrong is an A...something the WS is loather to admit. After you get GPS, keylogging etc...then what? When you confirm your suspicion, what next? OR in the case where you're wrong and nothing is going on and you've gone ahead and done that, then what? The bottom line is there will still be a problem to address... finding or not finding anything doesn't mean there is no issue, the issue already started, so for me, I'd rather skip to that step of addressing the issue that led to me having to do all that. That is, I am suspicious, I do not feel secure, I saw this email...what are we going to do in light of this? Then nothing. The "BS" took appropriate and reasonable steps to confirm or refute that "sense" their spouse is cheating. You are want (I think) to make this out to be an issue with the BS I think...that they didn't trust or believe or love enough to accept what is told at face value. It could be easily turned and claimed the WS ALLOWED a reasonable BS to come to that conclusion instead of proactively and openly communicating. How many times do you think that happens (rhymes with lever ) My suspicion and insecurity is where we have a problem...it is not in what I then find after doing all that other stuff, me feeling the need to do that stuff is the problem. At least ask, that is communication...give the person the opportunity to lie or tell the truth and for you to guage it. But cheaters do the same thing,....they ASSUME your response, they assume you won't like what they have to say, assume this and that so assume it is better they have a secret affair because "they know" you will or won't do something. On either end it's horrible communication and people assuming instead of communicating. I can't support that. Here I agree. Communication and insecurity is the problem...and its not in the BS. If the WS is having issues with the M he/she needs to have the maturity, the desire and ability to openly and meaningfully address those issues. Except that isn't what happens...the WS, absent those qualities, strays. Then lies about it. And to go further, I do not wish to imply the M itself is flawed. That is usually NOT the case. What is lacking isn't some deficiency of the M (as we have a presumably loyal BS), but something lacking in the WS who, for whatever reason, fails to address these internal issues (which appear as a faulty M to the WS). However, in the absence of such "feeling", the BS would be the one with "issues" if they "snoop" (which presupposes a right to privacy WITHIN a M). Essentially, snooping without cause is likely an internal BS issue. (I would actually claim it isnt as privacy, to me, does NOT belong in an M). I am of the mind that I need to come to you and give you the chance to lie to my face... if I am married to you, chances are I can read your reaction, what you say and/or don't say Dangerous assumption. Ask any BS who has been M to their WS for decades and didn't see it coming. Each and every one thought as you..."I know him to well" or they trust and love TOO much. Which makes the deceit all the easier. And traumatic. But in any case, it's not just about "hey are you cheating?" it's about "hey I don't feel right about xyz....how can we move forward?" My not feeling right, whether it is because of something imaginary or real, is the issue. They don't even need to be in an A....if we're not on the same page and I feel alienated whether it is because of your A or you work a lot or you don't have sex with me etc...that's the problem. If they choose not to change anything to improve how I feel and the security of the relationship....then that's a whole other problem. But I believe the spouse who never allows that opportunity to air out their feelings and who does not try to communicate at signs of mistrust but instead employ covert tactics because of what they think the other person will/won't do is making a choice for that person that they should not.... just like the WS who often makes choices for the BS. They are one and the same IMO and both come from spouses not communicating and/or assuming. One, you presume too much. If a WS is straying, and its almost always for internal reasons, then its is not realistic to suppose that the WS will suddenly, because the BS asked, develop such skills on the spot. The BS can ask...but the WS must have the internal tools to REPLY. Usually they lie. (almost a poet there) If upon broaching the subject and both of you trying to ameliorate the issue you still feel doubtful or they are not forthright and you continue to feel suspicious...then fine...go ahead and get proof. But for it to be your first resort....what kind of relationship is that? I think that should be a last resort...and should be a sign of how far things have deteriorated...but in a healthy relationship, that should not be your first resort. I do understand your point MissBee and in an academic sense its a valid one. Except how is a BS to know if the WS is truly feeling "stress" or is having an A and lying about it? It is, in my view, a reasonable response to look first. Because, if a BS asks, the WS may go "underground" and the proof never be found leaving the BS to wonder forever. That nagging feeling that something is wrong. I would heartily recommend a suspicious spouse look first. And if nothing is there...drop it. If there is, unleash hell.
MissBee Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Yes, and that something is a cheating spouse and that "sense" that something is amiss. When pressed, most WS simply lie...its my job, stress, health...anything BUT the truth. Thats the insidious part of it. The BS has no way of knowing WHAT the truth is. Maybe the spouse is truly stressed at work and working long hours. And maybe not. The one that IS certain, if the spouse IS cheating...and admission is not likely. There is no reasonable way, in reality, for a BS to divine what is wrong if what is wrong is an A...something the WS is loather to admit. Then nothing. The "BS" took appropriate and reasonable steps to confirm or refute that "sense" their spouse is cheating. You are want (I think) to make this out to be an issue with the BS I think...that they didn't trust or believe or love enough to accept what is told at face value. It could be easily turned and claimed the WS ALLOWED a reasonable BS to come to that conclusion instead of proactively and openly communicating. How many times do you think that happens (rhymes with lever ) Here I agree. Communication and insecurity is the problem...and its not in the BS. If the WS is having issues with the M he/she needs to have the maturity, the desire and ability to openly and meaningfully address those issues. Except that isn't what happens...the WS, absent those qualities, strays. Then lies about it. And to go further, I do not wish to imply the M itself is flawed. That is usually NOT the case. What is lacking isn't some deficiency of the M (as we have a presumably loyal BS), but something lacking in the WS who, for whatever reason, fails to address these internal issues (which appear as a faulty M to the WS). However, in the absence of such "feeling", the BS would be the one with "issues" if they "snoop" (which presupposes a right to privacy WITHIN a M). Essentially, snooping without cause is likely an internal BS issue. (I would actually claim it isnt as privacy, to me, does NOT belong in an M). Dangerous assumption. Ask any BS who has been M to their WS for decades and didn't see it coming. Each and every one thought as you..."I know him to well" or they trust and love TOO much. Which makes the deceit all the easier. And traumatic. One, you presume too much. If a WS is straying, and its almost always for internal reasons, then its is not realistic to suppose that the WS will suddenly, because the BS asked, develop such skills on the spot. The BS can ask...but the WS must have the internal tools to REPLY. Usually they lie. (almost a poet there) I do understand your point MissBee and in an academic sense its a valid one. Except how is a BS to know if the WS is truly feeling "stress" or is having an A and lying about it? It is, in my view, a reasonable response to look first. Because, if a BS asks, the WS may go "underground" and the proof never be found leaving the BS to wonder forever. That nagging feeling that something is wrong. I would heartily recommend a suspicious spouse look first. And if nothing is there...drop it. If there is, unleash hell. JW.....I am not trying to make out anything to be the BS's fault, neither am I presuming anything, however you have presumed quite a lot that I am even re-reading my own post to find out how you read what you read. This is not about BS's, this is about how I perceive the situation and what I would do and how I view the importance of communication in a relationship. I see parallels between cheaters who do not communicate and suspicious spouses who do the same. So many issues in life when you strip the facts away boil down to assumptions and poor communication. I'd never listen to someone tell me about their espionage and believe that they have a good marriage. The two do not gel for me. This is not about loving someone so you take their words at face value....as I said, you ask someone something or you decide to open up a conversation, NOT about their actions but YOUR feelings. If their is insecurity in a relationship on one person's part, whether because of real or imagined events, that is already the problem. A marriage is not an entity free existing outside of a union...so you cannot rightfully have one part of a union who is cheating or one who is insecure or whatever the case is and still say the union is good. If one person has a problem, the whole thing is sinking. You can't have a good marriage all by your lonesome. If there is ANY insecurity, the point is: What are you going to do about that? If after you spy and find nothing, it most likely means the insecurity is coming from another source....and for me, if I am married to you, I need to be able to address my insecurities with you as the finding of nothing does not now mean the problem went away. That is my major point. The insecurities can break a marriage...this is not just about cheating, I pointed out other situations that can lead to alienation and insecurity. I have been in relationships where I played that whole game of asking my friends what they think about this and that and trying to come up with my own theories about this person's behavior....and I stressed myself out so much and he asked me a simply question, when I finally decided to approach him, that made me feel ridiculous: "So why didn't you just ask me ?" Duh.... That should have been my FIRST and the most reasonable response. Instead I assumed all this stuff and made the decision FOR HIM about how he'd respond and then foolishly thought somehow my friends would be able to tell me what was in his mind. He was not doing anything but the whole episode was not "okay" it was clearly a sign that the communication was lacking as I was scared to talk to him. THAT was already the problem, which my actions were a symptom of. That was a lesson I learned through experience that if I have a problem with a relationship: whether romantic or platonic, I go to the source first. That's the marker of a good relationship, being able to do that. I address MY feelings with my friend, boyfriend or husband first....THEN if that doesn't work...I do something else. How can I be in a relationship where each time something comes up I have to ask outsiders or go through some third party investigation as my FIRST choice? If you have to say "I'm sure he's lying or will lie" then you have already decided for that person what their actions will be. I'm fair. It's not about blind trust or love or believing because you asked it will be the truth, it will be the action of giving the OPPORTUNITY for an open discussion that your spouse can take or leave. I'd rather give you the chance to lie and then you can't say I didn't give you an opportunity....however, if I never approach you, then you can always turn it back around on me and bring up the fact that I didn't give you a chance. Even in the justice system, all criminals, even if you witnessed them doing the crime, are subject to a fair trial. I believe my relationships, platonic and romantic, are subject to that too. I may feel like I KNOW what you will say but I'm gonna give you the opportunity to say it. That makes sense to me. I do not support the backwards approach. If it works for you...then that's fine. It has never worked for me though and I'm being clear that this is MY approach to relationships and how I live my life and will live my marriage and not a discussion of BS's or anyone else; and no one needs to agree because this approach intuitively makes sense to me and even within a counseling setting I'm sure most marriage counselors will not advise one to spy first, communicate later. So yes, this is my take. I have done the latter...it did not work. This approach feels right to me and is steeped in an openness, fairness and in communication and for me feels like I have done the due diligence. The environment I want for my marriage will be one conducive to that type of communication style. Other people are free to conduct their marriages and do with their suspicion what they will, but for ME...this is what I do and will continue to do. For the past couple of years especially after being on LS, I have realized that okay clearly most people are in relationships with improper tools...my goal has been to look for those relationships that are working and that mimic what I want and find out their philosophies....well none so far have preached the philosophy you're espousing, and that's okay, different strokes for different folks, but if I want a certain type of relationship, I strongly believe that I'd rather watch and learn from those who have it and those who I am learning from just have never said that kind of thing and from my own internal truth barometer, it just doesn't make sense. So I can only go with what feels right to ME Edited March 20, 2012 by MissBee
jwi71 Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 JW.....I am not trying to make out anything to be the BS's fault, neither am I presuming anything, however you have presumed quite a lot that I am even re-reading my own post to find out how you read what you read. This is not about BS's, this is about how I perceive the situation and what I would do and how I view the importance of communication in a relationship. I see parallels between cheaters who do not communicate and suspicious spouses who do the same. So many issues in life when you strip the facts away boil down to assumptions and poor communication. I'd never listen to someone tell me about their espionage and believe that they have a good marriage. The two do not gel for me. I wrote it as BS vs WS in an attempt to address what you were saying by speaking in generalities (BS vs WS) and not about YOU specifically. Clearly I failed. This is not about loving someone so you take their words at face value....as I said, you ask someone something or you decide to open up a conversation, NOT about their actions but YOUR feelings. If their is insecurity in a relationship on one person's part, whether because of real or imagined events, that is already the problem. Interesting thought process. And let me see if I understand what you are saying: A conversation is begun because one party (A) feels something which has less to do with party B's action than party A's feelings - and those feelings suggest a problem already exists (perhaps before the A?). The problem is, party B's affect HAS changed. Their behavior, demeanor, approach-ability...that "something" IS amiss. A signal is given, read, perhaps subconsciously at first, that SOMETHING isn't right. It has NOTHING to do with party A at all, its about changes in party B perceived by party A. However, if party B has NO AFFECT change then I would agree the issue is in party A. That is, as Spark said, rarely the case. Party A, the BS, seeks and usually finds. And usually begins seeking begins the WS is giving off a tell that something is wrong. Sorry, not buying it that party A is causing or ameliorating an issue here (because of insecurity for example). Its a good academic point MissBee but one that belongs in the ivory tower. Most of the time, the BS can sense something is off...and cannot put their finger on it - especially when the WS is lying about it. Throw in X number of years M and all the love and trust and "he'll never do that to me"...ah, recipe for some severe trauma. A marriage is not an entity free existing outside of a union...so you cannot rightfully have one part of a union who is cheating or one who is insecure or whatever the case is and still say the union is good. Again, the way I read this is saying that one who searches for proof has some degree of insecurity which is undermining the M regardless if the spouse is cheating. Its how I read it the first time and how I read now. And if there is no affect change in the spouse, then yes, the searching spouse would have an issue with insecurity. However, usually, the BS gets that sense that something is off. And finds an OW/OM after searching. If one person has a problem, the whole thing is sinking I strongly disagree. One person having a problem does NOT sink a M. All people have problems and all M's have their ups and downs - not all people cheat or end their M. Because they have the emotional maturity (tools) to address it either individually or as a couple to overcome it. M's survive and thrive after all sorts of "one-sided issues" such as alcoholism or disease. Not buying that. At. All. You can't have a good marriage all by your lonesome. If there is ANY insecurity, the point is: What are you going to do about that? If after you spy and find nothing, it most likely means the insecurity is coming from another source....and for me, if I am married to you, I need to be able to address my insecurities with you as the finding of nothing does not now mean the problem went away. That is my major point. I have always understood that. And its a valid point I agreed with in my original post to you and above. If the BS searches and finds nothing, do nothing. Drop it. Should the BS CONTINUE searching with no proof uncovered, then yes, the BS has an issue. Its why I asked the OP what else and how her H reacted in MC and about the EA years ago. What else did she find? Does it support the charge of infidelity or is she overly-sensitive? The insecurities can break a marriage...this is not just about cheating, I pointed out other situations that can lead to alienation and insecurity. I have been in relationships where I played that whole game of asking my friends what they think about this and that and trying to come up with my own theories about this person's behavior....and I stressed myself out so much and he asked me a simply question, when I finally decided to approach him, that made me feel ridiculous: "So why didn't you just ask me ?" Duh.... That should have been my FIRST and the most reasonable response. No one is disagreeing with you. The problem is, with infidelity, the WS LIES whereas you are presuming the WS will suddenly develop the emotional tools required to step up and "fix things". And, in rare cases, that happens. Usually, the WS lies and spins and twists and manipulates the WS into near insanity. Asking the WS is not likely to end that series of questions inside the BS. Perhaps even make it worse. I agree...having a M with open and honest communication is IDEAL. One where issues are headed off before becoming R threatening. Where each loves and trusts the other and each has all the emotional maturity to openly and honestly communicate. And unicorns dance on fluffy clouds under rainbows . We should all be so lucky to find a mate who is like that all the time. Instead I assumed all this stuff and made the decision FOR HIM about how he'd respond and then foolishly thought somehow my friends would be able to tell me what was in his mind. He was not doing anything but the whole episode was not "okay" it was clearly a sign that the communication was lacking as I was scared to talk to him. THAT was already the problem, which my actions were a symptom of. That was a lesson I learned through experience that if I have a problem with a relationship: whether romantic or platonic, I go to the source first. That's the marker of a good relationship, being able to do that. I address MY feelings with my friend, boyfriend or husband first....THEN if that doesn't work...I do something else. How can I be in a relationship where each time something comes up I have to ask outsiders or go through some third party investigation as my FIRST choice? If you have to say "I'm sure he's lying or will lie" then you have already decided for that person what their actions will be. I'm fair. I'd rather give you the chance to lie and then you can't say I didn't give you an opportunity....however, if I never approach you, then you can always turn it back around on me and bring up the fact that I didn't give you a chance. Even in the justice system, all criminals, even if you witnessed them doing the crime, are subject to a fair trial. I believe my relationship does too. I may feel like I KNOW what you will say but I'm gonna give you the opportunity to say it. That makes sense to me. I get it. Have from the beginning. But your example above is a poor one. Now presume your friend has something to HIDE from you and damn good reason to do so. This causes him to change his outward behavior over time and you sense it. So you ask him about it. Guess what he is likely to do: Fess up or lie. "oh, nothings wrong MissBee...just long hours and stressed out about whatever at the office" Party B's behavior LEADS to that sense in party A. Absent party B's affect, that sense in A would be internally created and an issue with party A (the BS). I do not support the backwards approach. If it works for you...then that's fine. It has never worked for me though and I'm being clear that this is MY approach to relationships and how I live my life and will live my marriage and not a discussion of BS's or anyone else; and no one needs to agree because this approach intuitively makes sense to me and even within a counseling setting I'm sure most marriage counselors will not advise one to spy first, communicate later. So yes, this is my take. I have done the latter...it did not work. This approach feels right to me and is steeped in an openness, fairness and in communication and for me feels like I have done the due diligence. The environment I want for my marriage will be one conducive to that type of communication style. Other people are free to conduct their marriages and do with their suspicion what they will, but for ME...this is what I do and will continue to do. For the past couple of years especially after being on LS, I have realized that okay clearly most people are in relationships with improper tools...my goal has been to look for those relationships that are working and that mimic what I want and find out their philosophies....well none so far have preached the philosophy you're espopusing, and that's okay, different strokes for different folks, but if I want a certain type of relationship, I strongly believe that I'd rather watch and learn from those who have it and those who I am learning from just have never said that and from my own internal truth barometer, it just doesn't make sense. So I can only go with what feels right to ME No problems there. What you call the backwards approach is my MO. Trust but verify (bonus points if you know who said that w/o Google). I hope your spouse or spouse-to-be feels the same. They all start that way And I hope you find that guy MissBee. Just not agreeing with those particular tenets of yours.
Gentlegirl2 Posted March 20, 2012 Posted March 20, 2012 The woman has prayed ... she has given serious thought to whatever it was. She has said NO in a very dignified and caring ( for you and your children) manner. YOu have grounds for susupicion. She sounds like good person. I am not sure what she meant by "many transitions" though. Do you have any idea? For heavens sake, he is your husband.. why do you not just ask him what it all means??? You say he is arrogant.. maybe you are afraid of him in some way? I do hope you work out what you want from your life because you only have one and it gets shorter and shorter as time goes on. GG 1
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