Isn't it better to be optimistic than hopeless???

[PJKino]

It's not about blindly believing.......it's about believing that it's possible and then MAKING it happen. Finding the information, being bold socially and taking a few risks, just do things differently.

 

"If you do what you've always done, then you'll get what you've always gotten"

 

Ive took enough risks it hasnt worked..I dont feel like getting rejected by a few hundrred women in hopes of one yes that might be a wrong number or odds are will only lead to one dat anywaye and then i have to wash rinse repeat going through hundreds of women for another yes

 

I dont have the skin for that,it doesnt sound like fun

[ThaWholigan]

Know something weird, when I'm doing something I enjoy and makes me happy, people actually seem LESS likely to respond well to me. It's like... they feel threatened by my happiness. Whenever I start discussing intellect topics, people's eyes glaze over or they get very confrontational.

 

The only time people treat me well is when I act the opposite of myself: quiet, discuss nothing but superficial topics (the weather, how good beer is), don't show any sign of my personality.

 

That's why I think I suck... because I have never received any positive reinforcement from my peers that I am anything but the worst. Even my friends don't really like me. I've never been able to figure out WHY everyone dislikes me, and even when I have inklings, I have no way to fix them.

 

It's very confusing to have a hateful personality and yet live in a society that places so much emphasis on self-esteem and "be yourself." Well, what if who you are is kind of loathsome?

Well.....I'm confused.

 

Why are these people your friends? Why do these people gravitate towards you?

 

I've never been a particularly divisive figure, and my ability to always see the bigger picture renders me a little wishy-washy to some. But I've always been forthright about my beliefs and I have earned respect because of it. Whenever people disrespect me, I disappear from them.

 

Maybe you need to do the same. You must be gravitating towards people who are reinforcing your own dislike for yourself. If they don't even want to see you happy, why are you hanging out with them?

 

I honestly don't understand......

[ThaWholigan]

Ive took enough risks it hasnt worked..I dont feel like getting rejected by a few hundrred women in hopes of one yes that might be a wrong number or odds are will only lead to one dat anywaye and then i have to wash rinse repeat going through hundreds of women for another yes

 

I dont have the skin for that,it doesnt sound like fun

You have to make it fun. Give yourself an incentive. I do it all the time. I learned a PUA trick that worked with building up confidence:

 

One night I was out with an acquaintance, and I have him the £50 I had for the night and I said "For every girl I talk to tonight, give me a tenner back". I really wanted that £50 back, so I talked to some girls. It never went anywhere, but ever since, I have found it marginally easier to talk to girls without feeling like the ground will eat me.

 

What are your interests? What do you do in your life?

[verhrzn]

Well.....I'm confused.

 

Why are these people your friends? Why do these people gravitate towards you?

 

I've never been a particularly divisive figure, and my ability to always see the bigger picture renders me a little wishy-washy to some. But I've always been forthright about my beliefs and I have earned respect because of it. Whenever people disrespect me, I disappear from them.

 

Maybe you need to do the same. You must be gravitating towards people who are reinforcing your own dislike for yourself. If they don't even want to see you happy, why are you hanging out with them?

 

I honestly don't understand......

 

Cause it's all I can get. It's either have these friends, or have no friends at all. I have two groupings of friends: 1) friends who dislike me but also include me, being the first to reach out for contact, inviting me along, etc. or 2) friends who kinda, sorta, maybe like me, but unless I pursue them relentlessly forget I exist.

 

It's been that way my whole life. I could become a total recluse, but I've never been able to force myself to give up all social contact.

 

Maybe I'm just a bizarre person. My experiences seem so different from everyone else's.

[Ross MwcFan]

Know something weird, when I'm doing something I enjoy and makes me happy, people actually seem LESS likely to respond well to me. It's like... they feel threatened by my happiness. Whenever I start discussing intellect topics, people's eyes glaze over or they get very confrontational.

 

The only time people treat me well is when I act the opposite of myself: quiet, discuss nothing but superficial topics (the weather, how good beer is), don't show any sign of my personality.

 

That's why I think I suck... because I have never received any positive reinforcement from my peers that I am anything but the worst. Even my friends don't really like me. I've never been able to figure out WHY everyone dislikes me, and even when I have inklings, I have no way to fix them.

 

It's very confusing to have a hateful personality and yet live in a society that places so much emphasis on self-esteem and "be yourself." Well, what if who you are is kind of loathsome?

 

It could be that the reason these people treat you bad/dislike you isn't that you're a loser or unlikeable or that there is anything wrong with you, but that you're just not their sort of person and/or that you don't seem like the kind of person to stand up for yourself/don't seem tough. And maybe a lot of people or most people where you live are these kinds of people.

 

I experienced the same as you where I used to live. Where I live now though, and on the Internet I don't anymore.

[ThaWholigan]

Cause it's all I can get. It's either have these friends, or have no friends at all. I have two groupings of friends: 1) friends who dislike me but also include me, being the first to reach out for contact, inviting me along, etc. or 2) friends who kinda, sorta, maybe like me, but unless I pursue them relentlessly forget I exist.

 

It's been that way my whole life. I could become a total recluse, but I've never been able to force myself to give up all social contact.

 

Maybe I'm just a bizarre person. My experiences seem so different from everyone else's.

I don't get it personally. If I was you I would start all over again, somewhere else or something. I could not live in a place that forced me to think the way you do. I would probably explode.

 

Besides, I'd be quite happy being a recluse anyway.

[zengirl]

I use this example a lot, but I had a friend in high school that was an awful person. She was mean and a bully, but she thought she was fantastic. I've always believed that if I told myself "Hey I'm awesome and beautiful!" I'd be just like her... blinded to reality.

 

Did she think she was nice? Perhaps by her own standards, she WAS fantastic. Many HS bullies seem to think they're great. They're not "delusional" -- they just have a different idea of success than others do. Also, I'm not convinced she thought she was "fantastic" -- I said seem above because the kind of bullying you see in HS almost ALWAYS comes from a deep feeling of inadequacy. And why on Earth were you friends with such a mean bully?

 

As far as being 'blinded to reality' -- you already are. Any time someone says something potentially positive about you or your life, you deflect it. No one has said you have to think you're awesome or beautiful or anything in particular. We have simply suggested you stop running yourself and your life down every chance you get and being entirely ungrateful for all the good options you do have.

 

Our experiences tell us who others see us as. If guys see me as unattractive and stupid, then there's a good chance that's what I actually AM. And I'd rather go through life knowing that, then go through life believing I'm something I'm not.

 

Experiences give us feedback, sure. But they don't define us. And I think this notion of "who I am" is flawed. There are things about you that may never change, but there are loads of things we can choose to change. Loads. You choose to feel helpless and miserable because you think it's all you have to hold onto. You're wrong. Many people have told you that you're wrong, but you choose to ignore that feedback.

 

If that's the case, then I probably would have turned out to be a social retard, because up until a certain age that is how people saw me. As well as an easy target because I thought I wasn't good enough or cool enough. I hated my intellect and my weird behaviors, my anxieties and all of that. As a result, people responded to me with the same dislike I had for myself. However, I quickly made the distinction that whenever I was happy (playing piano I was happy, when I rapped I was happy, writing I was happy) people responded better to me. Subconsciously my view has changed over time, I now see myself differently, and as a result, people respond to me differently, I experience my experiences differently. Things changed because I changed.

 

The bolded is very important. Many people have had that experience in their lives --- they change (their mind and actions) and their lives change. I'm glad you experienced that, TW.

 

Know something weird, when I'm doing something I enjoy and makes me happy, people actually seem LESS likely to respond well to me. It's like... they feel threatened by my happiness. Whenever I start discussing intellect topics, people's eyes glaze over or they get very confrontational.

 

The only time people treat me well is when I act the opposite of myself: quiet, discuss nothing but superficial topics (the weather, how good beer is), don't show any sign of my personality.

 

Just because someone isn't interested in the same topics as you doesn't make them "threatened by your happiness." You may have obscure interests -- I think letting that define your personality is odd; I have obscure interests and have cultivated other interests as well -- but that doesn't mean that the sum total of who you are is abhorred by people. It simply means they don't share your interests in that matter. It may be difficult to find people who do, if the interests are obscure, but you either try or you limit your conversation on those topics. That's appropriate reaction to social feedback. Inappropriate reaction is thinking that because someone's eyes glaze over when you discuss obscure topic x that you suck as a person. It doesn't even mean obscure topic x sucks. It just means that person doesn't like or get it. That's life. I have friends who watch Jersey Shore---it doesn't mean I feign interest in it.

 

Cause it's all I can get. It's either have these friends, or have no friends at all. I have two groupings of friends: 1) friends who dislike me but also include me, being the first to reach out for contact, inviting me along, etc. or 2) friends who kinda, sorta, maybe like me, but unless I pursue them relentlessly forget I exist.

 

I have oh-so-many-questions but let's stick with these three for now:

 

1) Why do people who dislike you reach out to you and want to hang out with you?

 

2) What does "pursue them relentlessly" entail?

 

3) What makes you think you have all the friends you're ever going to get?

[TheBigQuestion]

Know something weird, when I'm doing something I enjoy and makes me happy, people actually seem LESS likely to respond well to me. It's like... they feel threatened by my happiness. Whenever I start discussing intellect topics, people's eyes glaze over or they get very confrontational.

 

The only time people treat me well is when I act the opposite of myself: quiet, discuss nothing but superficial topics (the weather, how good beer is), don't show any sign of my personality.

 

That's why I think I suck... because I have never received any positive reinforcement from my peers that I am anything but the worst. Even my friends don't really like me. I've never been able to figure out WHY everyone dislikes me, and even when I have inklings, I have no way to fix them.

 

It's very confusing to have a hateful personality and yet live in a society that places so much emphasis on self-esteem and "be yourself." Well, what if who you are is kind of loathsome?

 

I'm starting to think that one of your major issues is your inability to evaluate how you come across to others around you. For instance, you say that people dislike it when you start talking about intellectual topics or when you display proficiency at something that makes you happy. What you don't seem to take into account is that the way in which you express yourself will have a profound effect on how people will react to you. You seem to have a hard time understanding that different social situations (rightfully) call for different behavior. I'm in law school. Do you really think I would just start talking about the differences between the 1933 and 1934 Securities Acts as part of a normal conversation with my non-law school buddies? (and even then, talking about school with my schoolmates on a social outing is usually a good way to receive glares and death threats). Or to try to give a pseudo-lecture on music theory in a crowded bar? People might be getting confrontational because the way you express yourself is in itself confrontational. If your real-life demeanor is accurately reflected online, then this is certainly the case. Yeah, there are things that make me happy, but I'm mindful of the times and places certain things can be expressed and the manners in which I express them.

 

I'm also reminded of when you told LS about the time you wanted to prove to one of your male friends that you could dress up and be sexy, so you wore a corset to a party. Then said male "friend" criticized you for trying way too hard and told you that the look ultimately failed for you. When I pointed out that you were wearing what is essentially a costume to a regular, casual party, you didn't seem to understand why it was that a reasonable person could see you as "trying too hard" to call attention to yourself in that particular social context. You might have gotten a much better response to that outfit if you wore it to a goth club or a Victorian-themed party. I'm convinced that your looks aren't the issue at all. You really, really need to work on your people skills and understanding social cues/conventions.

[Taramere]

Know something weird, when I'm doing something I enjoy and makes me happy, people actually seem LESS likely to respond well to me. It's like... they feel threatened by my happiness. Whenever I start discussing intellect topics, people's eyes glaze over or they get very confrontational.

 

The only time people treat me well is when I act the opposite of myself: quiet, discuss nothing but superficial topics (the weather, how good beer is), don't show any sign of my personality.

 

If you talk to other people about themselves and their passions you'll see them come to life. I suspect from your posts that you've never learned the art of that, V. Most of your posts are very much about you, trying to figure yourself out and feeling depressed about how others may or may not perceive you.

 

It could well be that in real life you're more inclined to show interest in others, but I believe this is the place where the real inner person comes out...and the real inner you that is coming out is smart and intelligent but also pretty self absorbed. So I'm having a hard time imagining you sitting talking to another person and being genuinely interested in them as opposed to being involved in wondering what they think of you.

 

I'm not saying that to try to be hurtful, so I hope you don't take it that way. I just don't get a sense of you being interested in others. Example...somedude was, in his own way, flirting with you the other evening. You reacted by portraying him as a desperate character. How do you suppose that left him feeling about his interaction with you? In the midst of feeling sorry for yourself, you neglected to have any consideration for his feelings.

 

Seriously V...that is not what being a nice and compassionate person is about. I think you are a nice person in that you're not confrontational...but I do wonder about how much genuine interest you have in other people, or how concerned you are with what's going on for them. I think it might be a result of you becoming so caught up in self loathing and self criticism that you're not stopping to consider what personal demons other people battle with.

[zengirl]

You seem to have a hard time understanding that different social situations (rightfully) call for different behavior. I'm in law school. Do you really think I would just start talking about the differences between the 1933 and 1934 Securities Acts as part of a normal conversation with my non-law school buddies? (and even then, talking about school with my schoolmates on a social outing is usually a good way to receive glares and death threats). Or to try to give a pseudo-lecture on music theory in a crowded bar? People might be getting confrontational because the way you express yourself is in itself confrontational. If your real-life demeanor is accurately reflected online, then this is certainly the case. Yeah, there are things that make me happy, but I'm mindful of the times and places certain things can be expressed and the manners in which I express them.

 

This is certainly true and something I find as well. There is a time and a place for things --- it doesn't make me any less "who I am" to compartmentalize a particular interest for it's appropriate time and place, IMO.

[verhrzn]

If you talk to other people about themselves and their passions you'll see them come to life. I suspect from your posts that you've never learned the art of that, V. Most of your posts are very much about you, trying to figure yourself out and feeling depressed about how others may or may not perceive you.

 

It could well be that in real life you're more inclined to show interest in others, but I believe this is the place where the real inner person comes out...and the real inner you that is coming out is smart and intelligent but also pretty self absorbed. So I'm having a hard time imagining you sitting talking to another person and being genuinely interested in them as opposed to being involved in wondering what they think of you.

 

I'm not saying that to try to be hurtful, so I hope you don't take it that way. I just don't get a sense of you being interested in others. Example...somedude was, in his own way, flirting with you the other evening. You reacted by portraying him as a desperate character. How do you suppose that left him feeling about his interaction with you? In the midst of feeling sorry for yourself, you neglected to have any consideration for his feelings.

 

Seriously V...that is not what being a nice and compassionate person is about. I think you are a nice person in that you're not confrontational...but I do wonder about how much genuine interest you have in other people, or how concerned you are with what's going on for them. I think it might be a result of you becoming so caught up in self loathing and self criticism that you're not stopping to consider what personal demons other people battle with.

 

Well I do have an interest in other people, the problem is, if it's not an interest I have, I get lost trying to talk about it. I just end up asking a bunch of questions because I know nothing about the topic... which gets other people talking, sure, but then they get no sense of who I am besides a cardboard cutout who asks questions like a computer program.

 

Okay, example: I went to a St. Patty's Day party on Saturday. There was a woman there who started talking about her blueberry wine. I have NO idea how to make wine. I had nothing to add to the conversation except questions, or mundane nice comments like: "Oh that's interesting!"

 

She might walk away thinking it was a nice social interaction, but she won't remember me, because I wasn't a PERSON, I was just a question-asker. I had no personality, I gave her nothing that would make her think," Hey I should reach out to Verhrzn!" You can write computer programs that do what I did.

 

Is that narcissistic? I dunno... I think it'd be more accurate to say I'm only an interesting conversationalist when I have some knowledge of the topic, otherwise I'm dull as dirt. But since I have a rather narrow knowledge range of hobbies and interests that are all unconventional, I either end up dull, or alienating people if I talk about what actually makes me an interesting person.

 

The other thing, I really LOVE deep emotional conversations. In those, I am VERY interested in the other person. But those kinds of conversations make even long-term friends uncomfortable. They don't wanna examine their soul; they just want to have fun.

 

Somedude is also a great example of a big problem I have with social interaction: the feeling that I have to appease other people's needs on the basis of social convention but they can ignore mine. For example, the lady with the blueberry wine never once asked me a question. Somedude was maybe flirting with me, but he was doing it in a rather insulting way. Yeah, he has demons... but does that mean I have to accept his behavior when it hurts my feelings?

[Ruby Slippers]

*Sigh* Not to be argumentative, but I've tried that, and couldn't come up with anything more than 3. I mean, am I really grateful for my junky apartment that costs an arm and a leg? Am I really grateful for my stressful job that barely keeps me afloat? Should I force myself to be grateful for crappy things?

 

*Shrugs* Like I said... some of us just suck.

Well, you could be living in the streets, so yes, I'd say a place to live is something to be grateful for. My little house in the city isn't perfect, and I could complain about 100 things about it. But I can find 100 things to be grateful for, too, even the basics, like running hot water that lets me take a bubble bath whenever I want, no upstairs neighbors stomping around bugging me, proximity to most of what I need, like public transit, the grocery store, and the post office.

 

Having even a mediocre job is better than being unemployed and starving, so yes, you can find some things about your job to be grateful for, even if it's just a modest paycheck.

 

Every time you look for the negative aspects of any situation in your life, you will find them. And vice versa. And in my experience, what you focus on tends to expand. If you're looking for what's wrong, you find it and it gets bigger. If you're looking for what's good, you find it and it gets bigger.

 

I challenge you to sit down for 5 minutes every day for the next week and write a list of 5 things you are grateful for, then see if you feel any better at the end of the week. If the best you can come up with is "I am thankful that I am able to walk," so be it.

[verhrzn]

And yet another thread jack. Apologies.

[RedRobin]

It seems like negative people fall into two groups: the first group is people who were raised positive, but have hit a hard part of their life. For that group, thinking positively can be difficult, but that's because they need to cure the underlying issue: depression, a bad job, a bad relationship, whatever is slipping the poison into their life. The negative thinking is a symptom, but curing the symptom won't necessarily cure the disease.

 

For the second group (of which I count myself among), it's more that negativity is a part of who they are. They were raised on patterns of dysfunctional thinking; studies demonstrate that thinking the same thoughts can actually create grooves in your brain. The more engrained these grooves become, the more you fall into them, and the more you fall into them, the deeper they become.

 

If these patterns are then reinforced by the outside world, then this second group starts associating negativity with reality. It's basic human psychology; you tell someone something long enough, they will eventually believe you, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. Humans were created to be social and impressionable animals.

 

This second group, in order to think positively, not only has to learn a whole new way of think, but also has to fight AGAINST their perspective of reality. They have to develop new neural pathways, and completely relearn how they interpret their environment. Then they ALSO need to somehow convince themselves that this new reality is "correct." Like forcing yourself to say the sky is green.

 

For me, I resist "thinking positively" or being "hopeful" because I don't want to be delusional. How many countless threads do we see of posters scoffing that women have unrealistic standards? That fat ladies should KNOW they can't wear bikinis, oh my god why do the uggos inflict themselves upon us normal people?

 

By keeping myself "negative," I believe I'm keeping myself in line with society's expectations of me. We can all scoff to not care what other people think... but we all follow social rules to one extent or another. We all crave acceptance and validation. I see my attitudes towards myself as realistic... if that means they're negative, so be it, at least I am not creating a delusional portrait of myself.

 

This goes back to the idea of reality... is it subjective? Do we all live in different realities, constructed inside our heads? Can you control your reality? Does controlling your reality control OTHERS' reality?

 

Lastly, I can't speak for everyone, but I always hope that my negativity and despair will burn my desires out of me. I want a family, and a boyfriend, but I can't acquire those, and I waste so, so much time desiring that. I hope that someday my negativity and hopelessness are so overpowering they overwhelm those urges and get rid of them, and then I can just get on with my life alone. There's a thread about it somewhere... a guy who became so hopeless eventually he realized he'd rid himself of the desire of companionship, for sex, etc.

 

There is a book out there that can teach you how to be more optimistic.

 

Studies have found that pessimists usually ARE more realistic and usually make better decisions.

 

Holdng onto 'pessimism' might feel more like a 'positive' coping strategy as a way to control the world around you (this is what I do). Optimism feels polyanna and downright idiotic sometimes.

 

Mostly, I do my best not to attribute motivations to other people. I usually have no clue. My path to being more positive (as you can see from this board, I don't always succeed) is to not take everything others do so personally.

 

You may have seen this book before... The author is well renowned for his studies on optimism and pessimism.

 

Amazon.com: Learned Optimism: How to Change Your Mind and Your Life (9780671019112): Martin Seligman: Books

[ThaWholigan]

And yet another thread jack. Apologies.

Don't apologize, it's a public forum

 

The thread has yet to leave the topic anyway......which is the value of optimism in your dating life as well as life in general.

[ThaWholigan]

There is a book out there that can teach you how to be more optimistic.

 

Studies have found that pessimists usually ARE more realistic and usually make better decisions.

 

Holdng onto 'pessimism' might feel more like a 'positive' coping strategy as a way to control the world around you (this is what I do). Optimism feels polyanna and downright idiotic sometimes.

 

Mostly, I do my best not to attribute motivations to other people. I usually have no clue. My path to being more positive (as you can see from this board, I don't always succeed) is to not take everything others do so personally.

 

You may have seen this book before... The author is well renowned for his studies on optimism and pessimism.

 

Amazon.com: Learned Optimism: How to Change Your Mind and Your Life (9780671019112): Martin Seligman: Books

Depends on how you define "better decisions". Many other perceptions may differ on that.....

[Taramere]

Okay, example: I went to a St. Patty's Day party on Saturday. There was a woman there who started talking about her blueberry wine. I have NO idea how to make wine. I had nothing to add to the conversation except questions, or mundane nice comments like: "Oh that's interesting!"

 

You don't need to know how to make wine in order to make a conversation about that. There's a story behind most things, and there will be a story behind why she started making blueberry wine. Conversation isn't just about trying to be interesting and scintillating. It's about helping other people to be interesting. I can totally appreciate that the methods involved in making blueberry wine would be a snooze-fest to listen to, but you use something like that as a springboard for other conversations. You bring out the person's stories...the things they really want to talk about.

 

She might walk away thinking it was a nice social interaction, but she won't remember me, because I wasn't a PERSON, I was just a question-asker. I had no personality, I gave her nothing that would make her think," Hey I should reach out to Verhrzn!" You can write computer programs that do what I did.

 

She would remember you if you springboarding from a boring subject like blueberry wine making to an interesting one about things that have happened when she's consumed too much of her own blueberry wine....and then the two of you swapped various embarrassing anecdotes.

 

Is that narcissistic?

 

Narcissistic can be a strong word - or conversely it can be a meaningless one. We've all got narcissism to us. It's only a problem if it's a defining feature of your personality that creates difficulties in your relationships. I don't think being self absorbed is necessarily narcissistic. In some cases it's just an offshoot from being anxious and being in this bottomless spiral of worrying about what others think of you.

 

I dunno... I think it'd be more accurate to say I'm only an interesting conversationalist when I have some knowledge of the topic, otherwise I'm dull as dirt. But since I have a rather narrow knowledge range of hobbies and interests that are all unconventional, I either end up dull, or alienating people if I talk about what actually makes me an interesting person.

 

The other thing, I really LOVE deep emotional conversations. In those, I am VERY interested in the other person. But those kinds of conversations make even long-term friends uncomfortable. They don't wanna examine their soul; they just want to have fun.

 

I understand that. I think there's a happy medium. Comedy is a good way of examining potentially uncomfortable things in a context that is fun rather than depressing or overly intense.

 

Somedude is also a great example of a big problem I have with social interaction: the feeling that I have to appease other people's needs on the basis of social convention but they can ignore mine. For example, the lady with the blueberry wine never once asked me a question. Somedude was maybe flirting with me, but he was doing it in a rather insulting way. Yeah, he has demons... but does that mean I have to accept his behavior when it hurts my feelings?

 

I maybe didn't pay close enough attention to get why you would feel insulted. I think that if you're constantly hurting anyway, most things are going to feel like added little needles into that pain...whereas if you're generally quite cheerful it's easier to treat it as banter or brush it off.

 

As to the blueberry wine lady....lots of people aren't very good at asking questions or showing interest in others. It's not something to take too personally, but I get that you don't want to feel that you're the one making all the effort.

 

You mentioned, jokingly, in another thread something about writing a book. Well in all seriousness...you have a talent for expression. I liked another of your posts not so much because I liked the unhappy feelings you were expressing, but because you expressed them so eloquently. You might start keeping a diary if you don't already.

 

Record your interactions with people, and maybe when you read over your diary questions will come into your mind about those people. You'll wonder about them...and curiosity about other people is the first step towards making conversation with them that both you and they will enjoy (provided you're not overstepping the boundaries and pressing them for information they really don't want to disclose).

Edited March 19, 2012 by Taramere

[verhrzn]

You don't need to know how to make wine in order to make a conversation about that. There's a story behind most things, and there will be a story behind why she started making blueberry wine. Conversation isn't just about trying to be interesting and scintillating. It's about helping other people to be interesting. I can totally appreciate that the methods involved in making blueberry wine would be a snooze-fest to listen to, but you use something like that as a springboard for other conversations. You bring out the person's stories...the things they really want to talk about.

 

She would remember you if you springboarding from a boring subject like blueberry wine making to an interesting one about things that have happened when she's consumed too much of her own blueberry wine....and then the two of you swapped various embarrassing anecdotes.

 

I see what you're saying, but I still get lost because I just... don't have those experiences. I just seem to have so little in common with people. I have no where to springboard TO, if you understand. It just always circles around to more and more questions, and eventually I run out.

 

I found this great livejournal from a girl with aspergers, and a lot of her interactions with "neurotypicals" sounds like my experiences. I wonder sometimes if I have some sort of social disorder like autism, but I've been to several therapists and doctors and none of them has ever though so.

 

 

You mentioned, jokingly, in another thread something about writing a book. Well in all seriousness...you have a talent for expression. I liked another of your posts not so much because I liked the unhappy feelings you were expressing, but because you expressed them so eloquently. You might start keeping a diary if you don't already.

 

Record your interactions with people, and maybe when you read over your diary questions will come into your mind about those people. You'll wonder about them...and curiosity about other people is the first step towards making conversation with them that both you and they will enjoy (provided you're not overstepping the boundaries and pressing them for information they really don't want to disclose).

 

I actually do keep a diary and record log of conversations; I started writing stories when I was about 4, and I have dairies stretching back all the way to 3rd grade. Kinda funny; I read my journals from high school, and I have no better insight into those interactions than I do currently. When it comes to understanding people, I have literally been stuck in this gear for the last 10 years, at least.

 

Interestingly, I didn't start turning the problem inward until about college. I won't say I was confident in high school-more like oblivious? I just kept thinking "Meh people don't like me, but soon I'll find people who understand me!" But I never did.

 

Freshman year, I started internalizing the "If you have problems with people, it's your fault, you're doing something wrong" and I've been that way ever since.

 

Aren't brains fascinating?

[Nightsky]

I like having fun. If I lost my arm, eyes, what ever I'd be upset. What I'd try to do though is be like all those people who have so much less than us. People like Anne Frank born with out vission or hearing. No matter how bad some people have it like painfuly dieing children for example it's something to see them laugh and love life.

 

If I crapped myself for example I could cry about it. But no use in crying of spilled milk or poop in this case. Time to laugh it up and see the humor in it. I like humor because you can make a joke about anything even rape. See the humor in life even the pain and you'll change your reality.

 

I saw a guy who got his face and privates ripped off by chimps who chewed the guy up while he protected his wife. They literaly chewed his face, privates, and hands off. This guy has it hard yet you see him living life as best he can proud he protected his wife.

 

You're not going to make it out of this alive. Your life is like a spec of nothing in a sea of infinity. You can live your life as big or as small as you want. I don't particularly see anything wrong with being negative. It's no fun. I won't want to hang out with you any longer then you stop entertaining me. I mean funny to see some one so negative about nothing, screaming about a sandwich made wrong or what ever. It's so much more fun though to be around some one posotive. Some one who will laugh with you instead of just stress about lifes next turn.

 

You can choose to be happy or sad. You don't have to be at the total sway of the elements. You're not a rock. You get to decide where you start and where you end. What you focus on. What you think.

 

Pain for pleasure is a great example. People to varying degrees can turn pain into pleausure. I mean peircings etc. So can't you turn your battles into fun? See the humor in it. Have fun.

[Taramere]

I see what you're saying, but I still get lost because I just... don't have those experiences. I just seem to have so little in common with people. I have no where to springboard TO, if you understand. It just always circles around to more and more questions, and eventually I run out.

 

I found this great livejournal from a girl with aspergers, and a lot of her interactions with "neurotypicals" sounds like my experiences. I wonder sometimes if I have some sort of social disorder like autism, but I've been to several therapists and doctors and none of them has ever though so.

 

Maybe you veer a little more than the average person towards that end of the spectrum, without it being sufficient for you to be categorised as autistic. You don't need to be diagnosed as having a condition like that to benefit from reading some of the literature aimed at helping people who have been diagnosed.

 

I actually do keep a diary and record log of conversations; I started writing stories when I was about 4, and I have dairies stretching back all the way to 3rd grade. Kinda funny; I read my journals from high school, and I have no better insight into those interactions than I do currently. When it comes to understanding people, I have literally been stuck in this gear for the last 10 years, at least.

 

Do you have an interest in psychology? In psychoanalytic theories?

 

Interestingly, I didn't start turning the problem inward until about college. I won't say I was confident in high school-more like oblivious? I just kept thinking "Meh people don't like me, but soon I'll find people who understand me!" But I never did.

 

Freshman year, I started internalizing the "If you have problems with people, it's your fault, you're doing something wrong" and I've been that way ever since.

 

You started a thread asking why people who hate you can't leave you alone...but I'm not seeing evidence of anybody hating you. I would say that you're reasonably well liked on here, although you do often incur criticism for being negative. That doesn't automatically equate with people not liking you.

 

Aren't brains fascinating?

 

Fascinating and problematic in equal proportions!

[Red Arremer]

I see what you're saying, but I still get lost because I just... don't have those experiences. I just seem to have so little in common with people. I have no where to springboard TO, if you understand. It just always circles around to more and more questions, and eventually I run out.

 

I found this great livejournal from a girl with aspergers, and a lot of her interactions with "neurotypicals" sounds like my experiences. I wonder sometimes if I have some sort of social disorder like autism, but I've been to several therapists and doctors and none of them has ever though so.

The more I read of your posts, the more I think we have somewhat similar problems. I have an incredibly hard time relating to people too, and unless I'm engaged in a conversation about one of my incredibly narrow set of interests I just get completely lost and either start smiling/nodding and asking questions like an automaton or just fade out of the conversation completely. Even when it's something similar to an interest of mine but not exactly, like a genre of video game I don't play as the first example that comes to mind, I still have problems.

 

I've suspected that I have high functioning autism for a long time myself, just because a lot of my experience seems to line up with what I've heard that's like. But, again like you, none of my therapists have ever agreed.

[somedude81]

Okay, example: I went to a St. Patty's Day party on Saturday. There was a woman there who started talking about her blueberry wine. I have NO idea how to make wine. I had nothing to add to the conversation except questions, or mundane nice comments like: "Oh that's interesting!"

 

She might walk away thinking it was a nice social interaction, but she won't remember me, because I wasn't a PERSON, I was just a question-asker. I had no personality, I gave her nothing that would make her think," Hey I should reach out to Verhrzn!" You can write computer programs that do what I did.

I agree with Taramere, you could have transitioned away from making the wine to actually drinking it. Ask her how strong it is, why she makes it etc.

 

Somedude is also a great example of a big problem I have

Uh what?

with social interaction: the feeling that I have to appease other people's needs on the basis of social convention but they can ignore mine.

OK, lets see how this relates to me.

For example, the lady with the blueberry wine never once asked me a question.

And it doesn't.

 

Somedude was maybe flirting with me, but he was doing it in a rather insulting way. Yeah, he has demons... but does that mean I have to accept his behavior when it hurts my feelings?

First of all, what does that have to do with feeling that you have to appease peoples needs based on social convention?

 

Last time I checked, you haven't appeased my needs, trust me, I'd know

 

Also, whenever we communicated, the topics were almost always about you or things you were interested in. How is that not meeting your needs?

 

Lastly, yes I have said some rude things to you out of frustration. Frustration that you caused. That doesn't make them OK but it should at least give you cause to think.

 

As for if I was flirting in an insulting way, please point those out, here or inn PM if you'd like, as I'm basically clueless about flirting in general. I'm trying to throw in a little bit of cocky/bold in and at this point it's just trial and error.

[Thieves]

By keeping myself "negative," I believe I'm keeping myself in line with society's expectations of me. We can all scoff to not care what other people think... but we all follow social rules to one extent or another. We all crave acceptance and validation. I see my attitudes towards myself as realistic... if that means they're negative, so be it, at least I am not creating a delusional portrait of myself.

 

The funny thing is that you seem to be taking all of these extensive precautions to prevent you from becoming delusional about yourself, yet this very thinking is nonsensical and delusional in itself. This is apparent because you often always equal positivity with delusion or false realism, and I believe that says quite a bit. It's also a damn surefire way to trap yourself into a way of thinking where it's always going to be a lose/lose situation. Very clever.

 

If these patterns are then reinforced by the outside world, then this second group starts associating negativity with reality. It's basic human psychology; you tell someone something long enough, they will eventually believe you, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. Humans were created to be social and impressionable animals.

 

In my opinion, the concept of reality, its subjectivity and whether it can ever be truly 'determined' in an objective manner is irrelevant. So much so that I'd even go on to say it barely has anything to do with the subject at hand; it's simply a discussion that one can delve into if you decide to veer slightly off-topic.

 

The 'meat and bones' of the thread is being able to change one's outlook, which we all know is somewhat possible. We've all seen it. And you've said it yourself: humans were created to be social and impressionable animals. But the science of the human brain and the flexibility of their nature extends both ways. Going by your above statement that humans were created to be impressionable/socialized, and if this is actually true for situations in which people find their negativity reinforced, then the opposite must be able to exist as well. Which means they can be impressed upon and socialized to be more positive as well. So, honestly, this in turn means it's possible to change your way of thinking if you find the necessary strength to change and to begin genuinely accepting positive reinforcement -- from both yourself and others.

 

Verhrzn, so many of us have tried to positively reinforce the idea that you are perfectly fine looks-wise, and that you're not such a bad person when you're actually being personable and not complaining. You're still rather young, and you've got so much life to live that you've not experienced yet because you're always so worried about what others think. I promise you that one of the best things you can do is sometimes to put yourself first, and to learn to accept things as they are. This doesn't mean looking at life with a negative perception, but rather accept the challenges you face and learn to do the best you can as an individual...

[Red Arremer]

But yeah, V, I really hope you can figure out how to accept yourself while you're still relatively young. You don't want to end up in your 30s still feeling this way, trust me, it sucks. :/

[verhrzn]

But yeah, V, I really hope you can figure out how to accept yourself while you're still relatively young. You don't want to end up in your 30s still feeling this way, trust me, it sucks. :/

 

Well my hope is by my 30's I'll have abandoned this need for human connection, particularly a romantic relationship. Life would be so, so much better if I could align what I want with who I am... If I stopped wanting friends and a boyfriend, since I am incapable of acquiring them. Or I hope to be dead, preferably in a way that would save someone else. (Not meant to be self-pitying, trying to go for dark humor.)

Edited March 19, 2012 by verhrzn