Why young women like older men?

[The Blue Knight]

I gotta laugh at all the lame excuses people throw out for why younger women go for older men.

You all sound very butt-hurt.

get over it. It happens.

 

Any person (male or female) that is in shape & even just ok looking will be considered attractive by the opposite sex no matter what age they are simply because we are a country of FAT people.

 

I'm not rich & drove a rusted out mid-80's POS jeep last summer with a different colored hatch on the back.

 

So it wasn't my money they wanted.

 

And chicks with daddy issues, LOL! any guy who makes them feel like they have to prove themselves regardless of any age can get women like that.

 

No, if a younger woman is with an older guy, 10 to 1 its because she finds him attractive.

 

Attractive and / or Interesting. A lot of younger women are turned off by the shallowness of younger men, and I've heard this countless times over the years. When I met my wife she had been through about 3 serious relationships with men matching her age (19-26). I happened into her life over 10 years her senior and we have seldom had a problem connecting after 17 years together.

 

Her former relationships included men who lacked honesty; didn't know what they wanted; or who lacked any sense of sincerity. Thankfully for me, I came along when she was involved with the last of these losers, and he fancied himself a player who never treated her properly, but like a lot of women, she was blinded to his actual limited qualities at the time. She just couldn't see what he really was until she and I began dating, and someone actually treated her special like she deserved to be treated.

[kaylan]

^Lol @ you thinking these issues are unique to younger men. Kindly check out PUA forums and the OW forum here and then tell me how much different older guys are than younger men.

[RedRobin]

Well, I know for sure that the young'ins who have been chasing me found me attractive too.

 

I'm just not letting it go to my head (much)... or attributing special hoo-wa powers to my personhood.

 

You guys... doesn't take much ay?

 

There is a lesson here I might have forgotten along the road somewhere. Hmmm. Something to ponder...

[FitChick]

women my own age however don't really seem interested in me for some reason. Which is a shame because their the one's i'm really interested in.

 

My situation is similar but I don't find it flattering being approached by much younger men, some young enough to be my son. I find it depressing.

[FitChick]

For the men who claim older men age better than older women I will state a line Madonna said when asked why she does not date men her age in their 50's. "Have you seen men my age"?

 

I had no idea she said that. Sad, but true in my experience.

 

If she weren't rich and famous, she would still get the young, hot guys because she looks amazing. However, I think most young men are attracted to her for reasons some younger women are attracted to older men -- money, fame, power. The guys just get the added bonus of a sexy partner, something that Rupert Murdoch's wife didn't get.

[dasein]

except for their drama. Always whining about how 'fat' they are or asking the guy "does my butt look too big in this?".

 

IME, older women bring MUCH more drama baggage to the table than younger women. I've never heard "does this make me look fat or am I fat?" from a young woman... never. Older women it's a literal barrage of such drama stirring. Younger women are more rude, spoiled and flighty admittedly, and that is the fault of men kissing their young asses 24/7.

 

Women see two guys, one is out and about dressed like an adult, drinking like and adult, and acting like an adult generally. The other has a bill hat on sideways, says things like "brah," and spends half the day playing xbox. Appearance being equal, the older guy will win that comparison with lots of women, and once a woman gets enough of a dose of the "brahs," she will start looking into older guys who are still in shape.

 

It's far from wishful thinking on the part of older guys, but something that smacks you in the face every time you catch a younger girl making eyes or out and out coming up and flirting. The question that goes through my mind first is "good god, how young is this girl?"

[kaylan]

I had no idea she said that. Sad, but true in my experience.

 

If she weren't rich and famous, she would still get the young, hot guys because she looks amazing. However, I think most young men are attracted to her for reasons some younger women are attracted to older men -- money, fame, power. The guys just get the added bonus of a sexy partner, something that Rupert Murdoch's wife didn't get.

I wont lie...if I was smashing Madonna, you better believe Id be gloating to my friends about her being loaded with cash and famous.

 

Also, the kind of world that youd get introduced to by dating her...I dont see many guys passing that up.

 

Ive said it before and Ill say it again...if more women out there were loaded with cash and actually wanted a young bf, they could easily have one. Young guys would use her as stepping stone the same way young women do it to older bros.

[FitChick]

she will start looking into older guys who are still in shape.

 

For me,

.

[kaylan]

IME, older women bring MUCH more drama baggage to the table than younger women. I've never heard "does this make me look fat or am I fat?" from a young woman... never. Older women it's a literal barrage of such drama stirring. Younger women are more rude, spoiled and flighty admittedly, and that is the fault of men kissing their young asses 24/7.

Really? I find women my age to be WAY more immature than older chicks. Younger women are far more concerned with their appearance too. What planet are you living on? Because I dont see older woman as insecure about their weight as younger women are. As people get older I notice they usually accept life for what it is and stop worrying so much.

 

To be honest, your post seems to be the kind of ass kissing young women are used to since you are holding them on a pedestal above older women. Dating has drama in general, but Im not gonna pretend younger, more immature women provide less of it than chicks with some life experience under their belt.

 

Women see two guys, one is out and about dressed like an adult, drinking like and adult, and acting like an adult generally. The other has a bill hat on sideways, says things like "brah," and spends half the day playing xbox. Appearance being equal, the older guy will win that comparison with lots of women, and once a woman gets enough of a dose of the "brahs," she will start looking into older guys who are still in shape.

Keep lying to yourself. No matter what you say, tons and tons of young women ARE going after the young adult "brah" guys.

 

The internet must be made up fantasy world, because I always see older men online constantly talking about how much better they are then younger guys and how the older guys get all the young gals....but out in the real world I always see women my age with guys my age. Older guys usually cant compete since a lot of younger girls see them as "creepy". Sure some younger chicks date older dudes, but its not as much as guys here want us to believe.

 

And you all really need to stop trying to pump yourself up as the better males. Inferiority complex much?

 

It's far from wishful thinking on the part of older guys, but something that smacks you in the face every time you catch a younger girl making eyes or out and out coming up and flirting. The question that goes through my mind first is "good god, how young is this girl?"

Some of it may not be wishful thinking, but a lot of it is when some of you need to constantly talk about how much better you are than younger guys.

 

If that was the case than most couples id see wouldnt have two young people of about the same age.

Edited March 18, 2012 by kaylan

[dasein]

For me,

.

 

Well it could just be my gym, but I see many more 40+ men in good shape than 40+ women there, and the membership seems to be about 60/40 female/male.

[RedRobin]

Where is that gym? and can I have a membership?

 

On the other hand, at the gym I go to, I get lots of young, snappy eye candy to look at. Some even giving me the eye back.

 

Not complainin' (much).

 

Funny thing is... the men my age who are in shape who go there are probably doing the same thing (checking out the young eye candy)

 

oy vay...

[The Blue Knight]

^Lol @ you thinking these issues are unique to younger men. Kindly check out PUA forums and the OW forum here and then tell me how much different older guys are than younger men.

 

No, they aren't unique to only younger men kaylan, but that seems to be more the rule than the exception, that's all. There are certainly older men who don't know what they want. Always exceptions to any rule.

[The Blue Knight]

My situation is similar but I don't find it flattering being approached by much younger men, some young enough to be my son. I find it depressing.

Most women (and men) would find that to be flattering. It's a compliment so you must be doing something right.

[kaylan]

No, they aren't unique to only younger men kaylan, but that seems to be more the rule than the exception, that's all. There are certainly older men who don't know what they want. Always exceptions to any rule.

Whatever you think it seems to be, does not make it reality.

 

Older men provide as much drama as older men. Maybe more drama in one area or less drama in another, but drama nonetheless.

[dasein]

What planet are you living on?

 

The planet I'm living on is the one where I have been both your age AND my age, have dated many women your age and many women my age (both relatively recently), and you have only been your age and likely not dated many women my age.

 

I never posted or insinuated that younger women are more mature, the opposite actually, but that they bring less drama and baggage. If they are attractive, they have an innate grasp of limitless options that older women do not have, making them far more secure, if in a very superficial way that is bolstered by their treatment by clueless, inept men. Most of the younger women I've been with know they look good and know they will for many years hence. Most older women I've been with do not share this level of security and that leads to more "affirm and reaffirm and reaffirm and reaffirm" drama on a daily basis.

 

For just one of many possible examples, my friend is dating a woman older than him. She looks good... for her age. I like her, she seems a good person, very mature, responsible, and polite. But... last night, they had a hot young bartender when they went out and my friend's GF made a literal pouting, passive aggressive fit despite my friend not saying one single word to the bartender, nor even looking her way, other than ordering drinks. It freaked the bartender out so much that she asked if something was wrong, and my friend left in embarrassment and is even contemplating breaking up because of this and similar incidents. After they got out, he had to listen to "I feel like you could get a younger woman, do you want a younger woman? am I too old for you? do you find me attractive?"

 

If you don't think this scenario replays LOTS, even daily, when dating women over 30, you simply haven't dated enough of them.

 

To be honest, your post seems to be the kind of ass kissing young women

 

Just what part of my characterization of some young women as rude, irresponsible and flighty did you not see?

 

Keep lying to yourself. No matter what you say, tons and tons of young women ARE going after the young adult "brah" guys.

 

You have a terrifically bad posting habit of not reading all that was posted and responding only to what you want a poster to have said. I very CLEARLY posted that they TURN to older men who remain in good shape AFTER going after the young "brah" guys and being disappointed in the results.

 

The internet must be made up fantasy world, because I always see older men online constantly talking about how much better they are then younger guys and how the older guys get all the young gals....but out in the real world I always see women my age with guys my age.

 

1. It's not a matter of us older guys being "better" but of so many, a huge number of young men today, delaying adulthood and messing around. Lots of women start seriously thinking about marriage in their 20s. They may not be ready to press that agenda just yet, but rest assured they have been thinking about it since before puberty. They look around at the guys their age and see lots of completely unsuitable "king o the xbox" boy/men who "wouldn't work" in the conventional agenda, and this plays into their socializing. Then they are out and see the older dude in good shape, dressed and groomed like an adult, obviously with money, who has more life experience to talk about than sports scores cars or whatever. He asks her out for a date, xbox daddy wants to grinddance in the club and hook up. Once a certain amount of experience with brah is under the bridge, yeah, she starts looking around.

 

2. Have you stopped to consider that the places you go and your general social life as a 20 something man might be vastly different than the places younger women seeking older men go? Mine was at your age. If the place has a strobelight, dart board, people clogging up all the main throughways, or loud grating music? I ain't in there. No sir. But rest assured there are MANY women your age in the places I do go. Not saying you go to trashy places, but that you might be going to places with a "younger" vibe than me, which might color your experience. I did 10+ years in the young places and have done 10+ years in the older places... all over the world, so I know from whence I speak truly. Do you?

[kaylan]

Whatever you think it seems to be, does not make it reality.

 

Older men provide as much drama as older men. Maybe more drama in one area or less drama in another, but drama nonetheless.

Bold is a typo.

 

This sound read "Older men provide as much drama as younger men."

[The Blue Knight]

I had no idea she said that. Sad, but true in my experience.

 

If she weren't rich and famous, she would still get the young, hot guys because she looks amazing. However, I think most young men are attracted to her for reasons some younger women are attracted to older men -- money, fame, power. The guys just get the added bonus of a sexy partner, something that Rupert Murdoch's wife didn't get.

 

Madonna's comment is true of both sexes actually. There are women who look plenty good in their 50s.

 

But let's be honest here. The grand combination of staying attractive starts with good genetics, add to that a youthful attitude, and the final ingredient of taking care of yourself physically by working out and watching your weight. Madonna is probably a good example of this.

 

I'm sure any of you who have been to a few reunions have had this experience. I'll use women just for my argument, but the rule applies to men as well. I was bewildered by the number of girls who were very hot / popular in high school . . . 20 years later, have utterly let themselves go. Carrying 50 or 60 extra pounds and doing little to maintain what made them attractive back in the day.

 

And I don't accept the "she had kids" excuse because I've seen women who have had four and five kids looking plenty fine in their 40s and 50s simply because they took care of themselves.

 

Unfortunately, with age comes the typical lackadaisical attitude about keeping oneself up, but what adds to the problem is the "take it for granted" attitude that comes with being with the same significant other for a while. In our youth a large percentage of us are on top of how we look on the outside. Unfortunately, what comes with long term relationships is the "I just don't care anymore" syndrome. Too many people just stop trying and that contributes considerably to the aging process.

[RedRobin]

Having dated younger men and older men, I would argue that older men have their own 'drama' to deal with....

 

One of which being that they think their status, money, and the APPEARANCE of being established actually mean anything.

 

I highlight appearance, because the world is a fickle thing... what with the economy tanking, jobs at risk... blah blah. They are just as likely to do retarded things as anyone else... probably even more so because they've gotten used to life being a certain way.

 

Shake things up even a little for Mr. Established and the whole world comes to a screaching halt...

 

Naa. We all got baggage my friend. I've seen it come full circle. Just that younger women are in a better position (for a little while at least) to benefit from that mid-life crisis or I'm getting old angst that older men are willing to dish out with their cash.

 

It's ok... Most of them will get through that phase and come on back to their peers (both men and women). *shrug*

[kaylan]

The planet I'm living on is the one where I have been both your age AND my age, have dated many women your age and many women my age (both relatively recently), and you have only been your age and likely not dated many women my age.

And the planet I am living on provides me with many male companions of all ages. The older guys seem much more content with their love life than the younger dudes. Older women provide less drama and are more stable than the younger women based on all I have seen and been told by them.

 

Hell I see a huge difference in drama from women who are late 20s compared to women who are my age (25) and under.

 

I never posted or insinuated that younger women are more mature, the opposite actually, but that they bring less drama and baggage. If they are attractive, they have an innate grasp of limitless options that older women do not have, making them far more secure, if in a very superficial way that is bolstered by their treatment by clueless, inept men. Most of the younger women I've been with know they look good and know they will for many years hence. Most older women I've been with do not share this level of security and that leads to more "affirm and reaffirm and reaffirm and reaffirm" drama on a daily basis.

Having less drama and baggage ties to maturity. People usually cite drama and baggage as a sign of immaturity, so who are you kidding? To anyone who read your earlier post, you were in fact saying that younger women were more mature than older women.

 

Again, about this security thing. Last I checked younger women were far more insecure than any older woman I have ever met. Young folks in general are more insecure than older folks. After a certain age, it seems older people have the confidence and experience to not worry so much about thing.

 

For just one of many possible examples, my friend is dating a woman older than him. She looks good... for her age. I like her, she seems a good person, very mature, responsible, and polite. But... last night, they had a hot young bartender when they went out and my friend's GF made a literal pouting, passive aggressive fit despite my friend not saying one single word to the bartender, nor even looking her way, other than ordering drinks. It freaked the bartender out so much that she asked if something was wrong, and my friend left in embarrassment and is even contemplating breaking up because of this and similar incidents. After they got out, he had to listen to "I feel like you could get a younger woman, do you want a younger woman? am I too old for you? do you find me attractive?"

Your point? How does your one example disprove what I am saying. Anecdotal evidence doesnt really defeat anothers anecdotal evidence, so we can trade stories all day.

If you don't think this scenario replays LOTS, even daily, when dating women over 30, you simply haven't dated enough of them.

Lolz...and if you think this insecurity is unique to older women, youd be very wrong. Theres plenty of older guys who are scared of their hot to trot wife being able to pick up a nice, fit, young man...and on this forum there are stories of women having affairs with younger dudes.

 

So in this day and age, women and men arent that much different in this regard. Especially since most older men dont keep in shape. Itd be silly from an older guy to think his woman never notices a young beef cake.

 

Just what part of my characterization of some young women as rude, irresponsible and flighty did you not see?

Still doesnt change the fact that the bulk of your post was putting them on a pedestal above older women.

You have a terrifically bad posting habit of not reading all that was posted and responding only to what you want a poster to have said. I very CLEARLY posted that they TURN to older men who remain in good shape AFTER going after the young "brah" guys and being disappointed in the results.

Lmao...do you really want to talk about anyones posting habits? Because if youd like me to break down yours and the reason why myself and others dont take them seriously, then please give me the green light.

 

You act as if your post wasnt a way to put older dudes on a level above younger guys. At the end of the day, it doesnt really matter why a few younger gals date older men, because most of them are with dudes their age despite how "brah" you think all young men are.

 

1. It's not a matter of us older guys being "better" but of so many, a huge number of young men today, delaying adulthood and messing around. Lots of women start seriously thinking about marriage in their 20s. They may not be ready to press that agenda just yet, but rest assured they have been thinking about it since before puberty. They look around at the guys their age and see lots of completely unsuitable "king o the xbox" boy/men who "wouldn't work" in the conventional agenda, and this plays into their socializing.

The 20s are for messing around usually. Who are you to define what "adulthood" is. Come on now. Plenty of women are out having fun in their 20s as well, and most dont start thinking about settling down until they are about to exit their mid 20s. Plenty of guys are the same way...people figure they will settle into a relationship in their late 20s and be married with kids by 30 or so.

 

And lets not even generalize. Though plenty of young guys are just having fun in their 20s, theres are great number who want to settle down. This forum is but one indication of that.

Then they are out and see the older dude in good shape, dressed and groomed like an adult, obviously with money, who has more life experience to talk about than sports scores cars or whatever. He asks her out for a date, xbox daddy wants to grinddance in the club and hook up. Once a certain amount of experience with brah is under the bridge, yeah, she starts looking around.

And if older guys were really any competition, most women wouldnt be dating guys in their age group....but guess what? Most are. Theres enough women out there who want to party so the party animals guys can have their fun. Theres also enough relationship oritented men out there who want to settle down with the "settle down" minded females of the world.

 

Whats the problem? Actually finding someone you click with. People are complex so it takes time to find the right person. Simply making up this story that all young men are immature video game players is misguided and silly.

 

When most young women are dating older men, then I might start buying what you are selling. Till then, there seems to be plenty of women who dont mind the younger dudes who play video games after work.

 

 

2. Have you stopped to consider that the places you go and your general social life as a 20 something man might be vastly different than the places younger women seeking older men go? Mine was at your age. If the place has a strobelight, dart board, people clogging up all the main throughways, or loud grating music? I ain't in there. No sir. But rest assured there are MANY women your age in the places I do go. Not saying you go to trashy places, but that you might be going to places with a "younger" vibe than me, which might color your experience. I did 10+ years in the young places and have done 10+ years in the older places... all over the world, so I know from whence I speak truly. Do you?

Dude...you know nothing about my social life. Ive seen all sorts of things in my days. Being 25 does not mean I havent been around the block at all, so spare me with the angle your trying to use.

 

Just because there are many young people where you hang out, does not mean there arent many more young people in the places I hang out in.

 

Ive also had this little discussion on this forum in the past. At the end of the day, reality and studies show us that most folks date people their age.

Edited March 18, 2012 by kaylan

[The Blue Knight]

Bold is a typo.

 

This sound read "Older men provide as much drama as younger men."

 

Well, there's no hard fast rule since we are all individuals and age is just one aspect of who we are.

 

Personally, I have found maturity in women to be an individual trait not absolutely related to age. Drama and Baggage are somewhat individual traits as well based on the psychological makeup of the female. I've met women who are fairly mature at 26 while a 45 year old woman is a complete mess.

 

With men, I think it's a little bit different. I think they level out by their 40s, and if they can get past their mid-life crisis (married or not) they generally carry less baggage and very little drama thereafter.

 

Too many contributors are speaking in absolutes on this topic and quite honestly, it's a very flexible issue that is geared more toward individualism than outright placement in categories.

[kaylan]

Bold is a typo.

 

This sound read "Older men provide as much drama as younger men."

Dammit I just realized I made a typo in my typo correction.

 

The bold should read "This should read" lmao

 

Well, there's no hard fast rule since we are all individuals and age is just one aspect of who we are.

 

Personally, I have found maturity in women to be an individual trait not absolutely related to age. Drama and Baggage are somewhat individual traits as well based on the psychological makeup of the female. I've met women who are fairly mature at 26 while a 45 year old woman is a complete mess.

 

With men, I think it's a little bit different. I think they level out by their 40s, and if they can get past their mid-life crisis (married or not) they generally carry less baggage and very little drama thereafter.

 

Too many contributors are speaking in absolutes on this topic and quite honestly, it's a very flexible issue that is geared more toward individualism than outright placement in categories.

Why would male maturity be much different at over 40 than female maturity. I dont get it...

[kaylan]

I like how Kaylan always makes it a point to mention all the women he has dated and all the sex he has, while all the while he posts on LS everyday, all day.

 

Wow, what a sex life he leads.

Troll moar?

[sid3]

What a pointless argument. While you were bickering it was really nice out.... 72 and sunny.

Ok, carry on.

[FitChick]

Here is a very funny but a bit sad article written by an English woman who only dated older men. Had me laughing out loud in my tea.

[dasein]

The older guys seem much more content with their love life than the younger dudes.

 

We are, and one huge reason for that is the availability of younger women in addition to women our own age. More options = happier male love life generally. Simple equation that proves true from youth through old age.

 

Hell I see a huge difference in drama from women who are late 20s compared to women who are my age (25) and under.

 

Drama that young women I have dated and know produce: being late, not doing what they say they are gonna do, being irresponsible and impulsive. Well lots of people of both genders of all ages do that. It's not behavior that requires me to sit and emotionally regurgitate the same stale material for three hours at a sitting. After the initial annoyance, I'm over it. Younger women don't tend to suck up my precious time with redundant, needless insecurity drama in the way older women do.

 

Drama that older women I have dated and know produce: endless need for reaffirmation, more jealousy, more clingy, more need for attention. Behaviors that eat up lots of my time needlessly. If a young girl blows me off to go to a show, or ends up bringing a bag of blow in my house, I can simply go do something else or tell her to get out. If a woman my age wants to engage in the third or fourth three hour "affirmation event" conversation of the week, I am trapped, like the coyote who wants to chew its leg off.

 

Younger woman drama is therefore more tolerable -for me- than older woman drama.

 

After a certain age, it seems older people have the confidence and experience to not worry so much about thing.

 

This looks good on paper, but not representative of fact IME. Older people have fears of becoming permanently unattractive due to inevitable age, being alone, becoming unhealthy that most young people can't directly conceive, even if they have experienced the deaths of loved ones or friends. Once you reach a certain age, it gets more personal. At 25, it's unlikely you really feel the truth of that, and IME very few if any younger women I've been involved with did. But this thread is about young and old -women-, not "people" generally. Repeating, younger women simply do not have, unless it is pathological, the same kinds of insecurities older women have. And if they do happen to, they aren't nearly as prone to make you listen to them over an otherwise pleasant meal as 30+ women are.

 

There are threads and threads on this board, just like this one, where women express -exactly why- they like older men. Not all do, but lots do. Instead of acknowledging they may be telling the truth, you write it off to a bunch of wishful old dudes longing for better days. You may not know this, but I have posted in many threads my preference for women over 30, baggage and all, provided they don't show too much insecurity and affirmation seeking bad behavior. My experiences with younger women as an older man have actually been my second choice. I would prefer a woman closer to my own age, but the younger ones seem more interested in me and less insecure, so after years of ignoring their attention, I am more open to it these days.

 

Your point? How does your one example disprove what I am saying. Anecdotal evidence doesnt really defeat anothers anecdotal evidence, so we can trade stories all day.

 

It's a safe presumption that almost everything posted on this board is anecdotal, and not a matter of proving or disproving anything in any kind of "peer reviewed" way. As a matter of fact, almost all of the things we learn in life are anecdotal at the root. The anecdote I posted was shorthand for literally hundreds and hundreds of similar experiences I could have posted, but spared the thread. I find that people who pull out the "that's just anecdotal!" card realize they are arguing from a weak, less informed position. If you don't want to post a contradictory example by anecdote, by all means don't. But the reply to "that's just anecdotal" on a dating board is... "well duh, it's an informal internet dating board."

 

You act as if your post wasnt a way to put older dudes on a level above younger guys. At the end of the day, it doesnt really matter why a few younger gals date older men, because most of them are with dudes their age despite how "brah" you think all young men are.

 

Nothing in my posts say "all." There are LOTS of younger men who don't do the sideways hat, beer chunder brah stuff. All other things being equal, a well put together, well-dressed, mature, competent guy will do much better than me with younger women, provided the younger women have any sense. But that doesn't change the fact that those kinds of younger men are in a minority, there aren't enough to go around, and when LOTS of younger women get fed up with that social life, they come looking for guys like me.

 

Plenty of women are out having fun in their 20s as well, and most dont start thinking about settling down until they are about to exit their mid 20s.

 

Oh they are thinking about it from the first doll, whether they are completely motivated by it or not yet, and it influences their social lives in varying degrees, one of which may be seeking out men with more resources, power, security, even from a relatively early age.

 

And if older guys were really any competition, most women wouldnt be dating guys in their age group....but guess what? Most are.

 

Doesn't bear on the argument that lots of women like older men at all. You seem to be mistaking a "why do some women like older men?" question with a "do people generally date in their own age group?" question. They are entirely different.