Propose now, or too soon?

[PapaWolf]

I apologize in advance for making an account and immediately throwing you a question like this, but I’m in quite a dilemma here.

See, I was once happily married. Nothing ever really changed that – I was very much happy with everything till the end. Nitpicking is always possible, but even if I really tried, I don’t think I’d be able to point out anything “wrong” with it – It was perfect.

 

That is, until I discovered she had abused our daughter for years. She’s still a young child, and to have my loving wife beat my wonderful daughter, somehow managed to kill something inside me. Everything I felt about her died at that moment.

I moved on nicely. Thinking more about my daughter than anyone else, I tried to keep my demanding job, and my role as a father, intact, but quickly hit a brick wall. It was impossible. I work 70-80 hours a week – It worked with my ex-wife, because she was a typical housewife, but alone, it proved too much. Dating was impossible with my work hours, and my daughter was neglected a lot, so I hired someone to take care of her.

 

Now, judge me all you want, but I fell for the girl I had hired. We’ve been together for a few months now, but I’m starting to worry about her. She’s young, I admit. Perhaps too young, and that’s my moral issue – My lega issue, is her parents. They’re very abusive of her physically and mentally, even having threatened us both several times. Before we got together, I noticed she had a broken rib, and other horrible physical evidence that her parents didn’t just hit her, they beat her senseless, and not just with their bare hands.

 

And that’s my problem. I sincerely fear her parents, and she refuses to let me do anything against them. So if I can’t attack them, I want to defend her, at the very least.

 

Sadly, I can’t. Her closest family is always the only ones allowed to make any decisions in case something serious happens, like, say, a car accident, or in case of serious health issues. And the last one is my greatest worry – Despite her own refusal to acknowledge it, she isn’t a healthy girl by any measure. She easily gets sick, and she has passed out twice without any warning. She doesn’t want to go see a doctor about it, and it’s actually the only thing that can make her angry.

 

I’m not normally judgmental of religious people – But I know her parents, and they believe in this nonsense that blood transfusions and replacement organs are strictly forbidden. This could potentially spell out her death sentence. Her refusal to see a doctor, and her parents disregard of her their daughters life could very well get her killed.

 

I love her. My daughter loves her. Hell, my daughter loves her more than she loves me. But I know she feels pressured because of my ex-wife. It isn’t that she worries that I still love my ex-wife – It’s the high standards she feels she needs to replace. I can somewhat understand that, but she truly has nothing to worry about – She’s just as wonderful as my ex-wife was, and in the eyes of my daughter, she’s incomparable.

 

And that’s why I posted in this section: I want to propose to her. She’s not fond of marriages, sadly, and I don’t want to appear as if I’m pressuring her. I just fear her health will fail at some point, and her parents will either force her back into their home (Which can’t possibly end well, because she hasn’t had contact with them at all since she ran away, without any previous warning what-so-ever). I do want to spend my life with her, and I know my daughter would love nothing more than that. She herself have actually promised my daughter that she’ll help her study when she gets into “high school” (what is equal to high-school, at least), which is quite a while into the future, considering my daughter is currently only 8 years old.

 

So that’s my question. What do you think I should do? Should I go ahead and try? Should I wait, despite the possible consequences it could potentially cause if I don’t? I’m not the least worried that she’ll agree for the money, (Which, ironically would have been a good thing if she did...) because she seems completely oblivious to the amount of money I earn. If I should wait, how long should I give it? And possibly, how should I approach it if I want to propose to her? Wouldn’t mind some of the young ladies here to give a few ideas on what they would prefer.

 

Thank you in advance.

[carhill]

Welcome to LS

 

My initial read is that the prior abuse of your daughter has apparently become a trigger of sorts and that you appear strongly motivated to 'save' your daughter's carer who has become your lover from her abusive parents.

 

Does your culture and society permit parents to abuse their children? I ask because your exW apparently abused your daughter and these parents apparently are abusing their adult daughter. Around my neck of the woods, those parents would either get a bullet in the brain or the police knocking at the door, preferably the latter. How does it go in your neck of the woods?

 

I would do everything in my power to provide a safe sanctuary for someone I loved but I would not use such dynamics as a valid reason for or motivation to propose marriage.

 

Is the young lady living with you? If not, consider such as an intermediate step. If so, she can break contact with her parents to stop the abuse. They can 'threaten' all they want. Record the threats and decide how best to neutralize them. Hopefully, peaceful means will prevail. Good luck.

[PapaWolf]

Welcome to LS

 

My initial read is that the prior abuse of your daughter has apparently become a trigger of sorts and that you appear strongly motivated to 'save' your daughter's carer who has become your lover from her abusive parents.

 

Does your culture and society permit parents to abuse their children? I ask because your exW apparently abused your daughter and these parents apparently are abusing their adult daughter. Around my neck of the woods, those parents would either get a bullet in the brain or the police knocking at the door, preferably the latter. How does it go in your neck of the woods?

 

I would do everything in my power to provide a safe sanctuary for someone I loved but I would not use such dynamics as a valid reason for or motivation to propose marriage.

 

Is the young lady living with you? If not, consider such as an intermediate step. If so, she can break contact with her parents to stop the abuse. They can 'threaten' all they want. Record the threats and decide how best to neutralize them. Hopefully, peaceful means will prevail. Good luck.

 

She's living with me.

 

And the problem is, as I said, that she thoroughly refuses to let me touch their parents. I really, really want to call in the police to help her, but she doesn't want to. She feels that she is putting her future at risk by doing so, and not in the literal sense of the word - She isn't afraid that her parents would come back around and cause trouble after having the police involved. She's afraid that, by calling in the cops, possibly getting them a prison-sentence, and thereby "ruining" their future, she will, by extension, "ruin" her own future - Like karma or something.

 

My problem is still her health. If she ends up on the hospital in a state in which she is deemed unable to make decisions for herself, the closest people to her are the ones allowed to make a decision for her - In this case, that's her parents. I could, of course, throw down my cards if that happens, and force away their legal rights to her, but I fear how she'll reach to that. Of course, that's still my current last-resort if it comes to that, because I'd much rather have her alive, hateful and resentful towards me, rather than let her die by her parents whim. I might be overdramatizing, but this is a serious worry I have right now. She's very self-destructive, sometimes appearing to overwork herself on purpose, regardless of how unnecessary it may be.

 

And I do plan on proposing to her sooner or later, but personally, I feel it's too soon... I'm just worried about what will happen if I wait too long.

[Lauriebell82]

She needs some help. If you feel her life is TRULY in danger and she refuses to get medical treatment or ask for any help then you need to take it upon yourself. Yes, she will probably be angry with you, but it's to help her not hurt her.

 

The first step I think you should take is to consult a lawyer who specializes in this type of thing. He may advise you to go to the police, or take some kind of other action. I'm hesistant to tell you to take it upon yourself to call the police (even though that's what I would do) without finding out the laws governing this kind of situation in your area.

 

As far as proposing, I think it best that you forget about it for right now and intervene. She is not in the right emotional mindset right now to even be THINKING of marriage. I would reconsider marrying her until this situation is resolved or she receives some serious help. I know you said your daughter loves her, but is this effecting her ability to care for your daugther? And what does your daughter have to say about all this? Is she aware of the situation? She must see the bruises, I would think that wouldn't set the best example for HER, especially since she has been abused herself.

 

I also agree with carhill that you may have fallen for this girl due to projection from not being able to save your daugther from the abuse of your ex wife..therefore you are trying to save your gf to absorb your own guilt.

[PapaWolf]

How ashamed I am of admitting it, it was my daughter that discovered it... She's fully aware of what has happened, but feels everything is solved since she moved in with us. I wouldn't dare telling her about the issues that still exists, mostly because she probably wouldn't understand it (She's 8... I didn't even expect her to be this good at understanding the situation.)

 

And I'm a lawyer. I'm fully aware of what I can do, and what I can't. That's not the issue.

 

I'm not too sure about the last thing. I started liking her before finding out about this, but didn't act on it. She is young, and I had hired her to take care of my daughter - I felt wrong to act on it. You probably aren't going to believe it, but she was the one who were coming on to me, not the other way around.

 

And pardon me for saying this, but I'm not projecting anything here. I might have done so when I allowed her to stay in the first place (Before we got together) because I didn't want her to suffer under parents like this. But this is a whole other case - I wouldn't call her suicidal, but the way she acts certainly seem this way sometimes, even if it isn't a concious thought. I don't think I'd be able to ignore that regardless of who it is, the problem is how to react. With anyone else, I'd just have gone straight to the appropriate authorities, but with her... I'm afraid of how she'll think of me.

 

That's my dilemma.

[carhill]

Since she's living with you as a domestic partner, and you are a lawyer, an easy solution comes to mind, one I needed a court order for due to mental incapacity; simply have her sign a durable power of attorney for health care and a springing power of attorney for finances, under the auspices of you 'taking care' of her if such incapacity should arise. This would be similar to what unmarried domestic partners would need to do, in lieu of marriage.

 

Are you the same age as her parents? If so, I'd be especially careful about rushing into things, regarding proposing marriage. IMO, marriage should come from mutual stability and a place of confidence and strength on both sides; as it is now, she is weak, or at least that is how it comes across on the page from my perspective, so enable her to regain her strength and see how it goes. It's possible part of attraction on her side is you being a stable father figure. Time and recovery will reveal the truths.

 

Considering the totality here, family counseling, if not already pursued, would be something I'd recommend. It could help clarifying your feelings about marriage to her as well as assist in the healing processes for her and your daughter. Good luck

[Lauriebell82]

I don't think I'd be able to ignore that regardless of who it is, the problem is how to react. With anyone else, I'd just have gone straight to the appropriate authorities, but with her... I'm afraid of how she'll think of me.

 

That's my dilemma.

 

She may be angry with you at first, but I'm sure in time she will understand that you did it to protect her. Your action could very well make a huge difference in this situation. If she is being hurt and you know it then you may be the only one who can stop it from happening. So would you rather her be angry or dead? Sorry to be blunt, but that's what it comes down to.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Lauriebell82

[Lauriebell82]

Also something to think about. You are a lawyer, so if someone came into your office and told you a similar story and wanted to know what they should do what would you tell them? And if they told you that they were afraid of her reaction and what she would think if he did report it? Would you advise him to take action immediately? Or hesitate?

[Mme. Chaucer]

It doesn't sound like all of this sick drama and profuse violence is an appropriate place to start a marriage. It also sounds like you must live in a society where physical abuse is "normal." Do you? Otherwise, it's quite odd that you manage to immerse yourself in it.

 

There is something wrong in the scenario that you were perfectly, blissfully happily married until you "discovered" suddenly that your wife had been abusing your daughter. It sounds like a high level of obliviousness or denial.

 

I'm sorry for the abused young woman.

 

Is she legally an adult? Sounds like she is not.

 

How can your enmeshment in such negative drama be good for your child? How can a person who is so unhealthy and doubtlessly profoundly messed up be a reliable caretaker for your daughter?

 

If you want to pursue this relationship and "save" this girl, no one can stop you, but I hope you will try to move the whole drama away from your daughter. Find another babysitter.

[xxoo]

How young? And about how old are you?

 

I'm concerned that her parents may have left scars that are not as visible as bruises. You say you've been together for a few months, and she is very self-destructive.

 

You have a young daughter to consider. How stable is this young woman? What drama might she visit upon your child in the future, if you marry her before knowing her very well? (ie: over a longer period of time)

 

I think your judgment is being clouded by your romantic interests. It sounds like this young woman needs help. Her coming on to you, the father of the child she was hired to care for, could be seen as a sign that she needs help.

 

Be the well adjusted adult here, for both your daughter and this young woman. Take the action you need to take to protect your child's caregiver. The romantic relationship, and her opinion of you, should not be your first priority.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Since you are a lawyer, wouldn't you have more reliable sources for legal solutions to your problem than an anonymous Internet forum you've just joined? I hope so.

[Lauriebell82]

Since you are a lawyer, wouldn't you have more reliable sources for legal solutions to your problem than an anonymous Internet forum you've just joined? I hope so.

 

That's what I was thinking. He has just said she is young, maybe she is isn't a legal adult yet. Depending on where he lives and the laws governing abuse, if he is a lawyer he would be considered a mandated reporter.

[Mme. Chaucer]

That's what I was thinking. He has just said she is young, maybe she is isn't a legal adult yet. Depending on where he lives and the laws governing abuse, if he is a lawyer he would be considered a mandated reporter.

 

Yes, and that would include reporting his ex wife.

 

It sounds like this lawyer has many more pressing concerns in his life than whether it's "too soon" for a proposal of marriage.

[PapaWolf]

She's legal, otherwise proposing marriage would be an extremely idiotic move. But she's only 19 years old, hence young.

 

How can a person who is so unhealthy and doubtlessly profoundly messed up be a reliable caretaker for your daughter?

 

I have absolutely no idea.

 

For now, I'll just let it be, and wait a bit. I see your point in trying to start something that serious for a reason like that would be stupid.

 

I might make contact with her parents, see if I can either reach a formal agreement, and if not, I'll probably think about doing it the hard way. I'd rather not, and that is why I'm doing it anonymously, because if I speak to any of my contacts about something like this, they'll want to know what's up, and will without a doubt take action, even if I won't. I feel like I'm breaking her trust if I do this, but I suppose it might be the best course of action regardless.

 

And I did report my ex-wife. I personally picked out a persecutor I knew would bring proper justice.

[Lauriebell82]

I have absolutely no idea.

 

I think that you do have an idea..however you will not acknolwedge or admit it because that would effect your romantic relationship. Isn't your daughter's wellbeing and safety more important? When you found out your daughter was being hurt, you were able to report your wife AND divorce her. Maybe your daughter isn't being abused right now, but because her caregiver is not emotionally stable, it's possible that will effect her ability to care for your daugther...in turn that will effect her safety.

 

It honestly seems that you are willing to do anything to preserve the relationship with your gf, even if that means that it will effect the safety of both her and others. That doesn't sound like a very healthy dynamic.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

And I did report my ex-wife. I personally picked out a persecutor I knew would bring proper justice.

 

Really? I wasn't aware that a person reporting a crime was entitled or permitted legally to select the "persecutor," regardless of their own profession. That's interesting.

 

Do you live in the USA?

[Lauriebell82]

Really? I wasn't aware that a person reporting a crime was entitled or permitted legally to select the "persecutor," regardless of their own profession. That's interesting.

 

Do you live in the USA?

 

If he does live in the USA, several states and Peurto Rico do not require legal counsel to report abuse, unless it is a client. They would be considered "voluntary reporters" therefore I suppose he could find his own lawyer in that aspect. Still sounds like a conflict of interest to me though..

 

It doesn't sound to me like he lives in the USA, the reporting laws are pretty strict no matter what state. Anyone could be liable for not reporting abuse that they know of, whether they are mandated reporters or not.

 

"Technically" he wouldn't be mandated to report his girlfriends parents because she is 19..abuse reporting laws only protect children under 18 and older adults (elder abuse).

Edited March 12, 2012 by Lauriebell82

[Mme. Chaucer]

If he does live in the USA, several states and Peurto Rico do not require legal counsel to report abuse, unless it is a client. They would be considered "voluntary reporters" therefore I suppose he could find his own lawyer in that aspect. Still sounds like a conflict of interest to me though..

 

It doesn't sound to me like he lives in the USA, the reporting laws are pretty strict no matter what state. Anyone could be liable for not reporting abuse that they know of, whether they are mandated reporters or not.

 

"Technically" he wouldn't be mandated to report his girlfriends parents because she is 19..abuse reporting laws only protect children under 18 and older adults (elder abuse).

 

But in ANY case, would the person doing the reporting be allowed to choose the prosecutor for the case?

[Lauriebell82]

But in ANY case, would the person doing the reporting be allowed to choose the prosecutor for the case?

 

I don't think in general, usually the DA's office has prosecutors for each jurisdiction to deal with those types of cases, even then CYF is the one who organizes that, not the individual person doing the reporting. However, if you are a lawyer yourself, I suppose it's possible to pull some strings to get one you want. I'm not positive though, I have never had to testify in a child abuse case before.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I don't think in general, usually the DA's office has prosecutors for each jurisdiction to deal with those types of cases, even then CYF is the one who organizes that, not the individual person doing the reporting. However, if you are a lawyer yourself, I suppose it's possible to pull some strings to get one you want. I'm not positive though, I have never had to testify in a child abuse case before.

 

It seems that it would be a tremendous conflict of interest to allow that, whether the person reporting the abuse is a lawyer or a housewife.

 

The accused is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty - it's not a rarity for angry people to falsely accuse their partners of heinous things. Not saying that's the case here, of course. But for the "accuser" to get to choose the "persecutor" that he "knew would bring proper justice" kind of sounds like a lynching.

 

It can't be happening in the United States. I hope. It would be great if another real lawyer will clarify.

[PapaWolf]

I don't live in the US.

 

And you are taking it too literal. I "choose" a prosecutor I know, by asking him a favor, making him take the case. In my country at least, most prosecutors are allowed to take on not-yet-distributed cases by personally picking them out, and that's what he did. They rarely ask for a reason, mostly because in this area, there are more cases than what can be handled, so a lot of them are on hold for undetermined lengths, so whenver someone pulls out a cases and asks for it, he gets it pretty much without any question.

 

It's up for discussion how optimal that is, but that is, nevertheless, the way things work.

 

And I'm aware of the fact that I should be reporting it. In fact, I'm breaking at least 3 different regulations by not reporting this. That's inargueably stupid, but I'm not going to sacrifice humanity to stick to arbitrary rules. If she feels better like things are now, I'd much rather let things stay like this, rather than pull her through something like this. Yes, she doesn't have to see her parents, no, she doesn't have to be in court, and yes, a simple signed testimony along with a me and my daughter as witnesses would be more than sufficient to get the case through, almost without her being involved at all - But that's not the issue. She doesn't want her parents harmed. She feels she is responsible for what happened, and yes, she is attending a psyciatrist.

 

Either way, I'm grateful for the responses, and feel I'm a bit more certain as to what I'm going to do next. I'll probably speak to her again, speak to her parents, and if all else fails, report it. I'm still reluctant to do so, mainly because I'm uncertain as to what good it would do other than revenge, and from my ex-wife, I know that doesn't really bring as much peace as I had hoped.