Insight needed into my marriage

[OttawaMan]

There is a lot of info and I'm sure I'll leave something out. If so I will try to clarify.

 

My wife and I have been married for 12 years and have been together for about 16. When we started out we both had some issues that we've worked out for ourselves over time - I had self worth issues and she had dependency issues (dependent on me for all happiness). Happily we both managed to work all these out and have been much better for the last 6 years or so.

 

Lately however, in the last couple or few years, things have really started to decline in our marriage in my opinion. Last year for example, we had sex twice and this year we have had it once so far. It's on both of us though I think. Neither seems all that interested the majority of the time. We go to bed at vastly different times as well. I'm typically in bed between 9pm and 10pm, where she will stay up until 4am or later. Normally when she comes to bed I'm about ready to get up and start my day. From what I can tell she isn't talking on the Internet or anything, she typically just watches TV shows and movies, or at least whenever I've stirred out of bed in the middle of the night that's what she's been doing.

 

Also, in the last three years or so, I've had to do a lot more global travel for work and I'm now usually gone a week per month, maybe a bit more. Usually I'm in a significantly different timezone so it makes communication for more than a few minutes a day a bit difficult. Maybe because of this, or maybe not related, she seems to be going out for coffee or dinner with friends much more often, both when I'm home and when I'm away. Typically she goes out for three hours or so four or five days a week. A couple of months ago she went on a road trip with a couple of friends to Boston (from Ottawa), and in the past couple of years she's gone on short weekend trips with friends a couple of other times.

 

Despite the above, I really don't think she is cheating. There are no tell tale signs such as money going missing, catching her talking with anyone I don't know (I do know all the people she goes out with and goes away with). There have been times where she has fallen out with some of her friends and in spite they would have run to me with any dirt if there was any, but thy have not. Maybe I'm just naive?

 

We certainly don't argue like we used to in the earlier days, maybe that's a bad sign though? I thought it was just that a lot of issues had been sorted out such as not having money problems any longer.

 

Looking at myself, I sometimes (frequently) feel that I do want more than what I have now. I certainly wish no ill on my wife as she has developed into one my best friends, but I can honestly say I'm missing passion in my life now and have been feeling that way for quite a while - that new love / lust feeling. I'll also note that I've never cheated.

 

Now for those that say cut it off or break up, that will carry severe penalties that I'm just not sure will be worth it (that's partially where I need advice). My wife has never had a career in our relationship and has only worked occasionally in jobs where she could not have actually supported herself. She's had minor jobs working a few hours a week making $300-$400 a month, but hasn't been working now for a year and a half or so. As an FYI, we have no children. If we were to break up now I would be on hook for alimony for the rest of my life and that's something that just doesn't appeal to me. I make pretty good money so I wouldn't be made destitute, but I'd be looking at giving up a minimum of 1/3 my salary, possibly even closer to 1/2 for alimony payments.

 

Counseling is not an option as my wife has made it crystal clear on other occasions that she would not participate as she does not agree with the practice.

 

So, any advice? Like I said above, I've probably left lots out but would happy to answer questions if something isn't clear. I don't think my marriage is bad when compared to those where there is physical abuse or extreme mental abuse, but it just feels like there should be so much more to life. Is it worth the financial hit it's going to be for me for the rest of my life if I call it off (I'm 40 now), and if so how do I avoid the major drama it is likely to cause? Or do I just live with it an accept where I'm at and tell myself "It could be worse"?

[denise_xo]

Welcome to LS.

 

Have you told her what you have told us here, and tried to explain to her how you feel? If yes, what was her response?

 

Also, why has she not been working much considering you don't have children?

[OttawaMan]

Thanks for the reply Denise.

 

No, we haven't discussed it. Knowing our relationship as I do it would be one of those point of no return moments, and I'm not sure that is really where I want to go, though I'm not sure it's where I don't want to go either, hence posting here looking for some advice. As I mentioned, the marriage isn't bad in the sense that other peoples marriages are bad. It's like I'm 60 percent happy - is it realistic that I'd find some other relationship where I was 90 or 100 percent happy, or should I count my lucky stars that I'm not stuck in a relationship where I'm at 20 percent?

 

She hasn't worked because there hasn't been a need. I make a comfortable living and while it would be nice if she was out working at a full time job, the extra income isn't really needed at all.

[denise_xo]

Thanks for the reply Denise.

 

No, we haven't discussed it. Knowing our relationship as I do it would be one of those point of no return moments, and I'm not sure that is really where I want to go, though I'm not sure it's where I don't want to go either, hence posting here looking for some advice. As I mentioned, the marriage isn't bad in the sense that other peoples marriages are bad. It's like I'm 60 percent happy - is it realistic that I'd find some other relationship where I was 90 or 100 percent happy, or should I count my lucky stars that I'm not stuck in a relationship where I'm at 20 percent?

 

She hasn't worked because there hasn't been a need. I make a comfortable living and while it would be nice if she was out working at a full time job, the extra income isn't really needed at all.

 

No, I don't think a relationship is about being 100% happy all of the time. What I think, though, is that open channels of communication is a fundamental base of a healthy relationship. So, your comment about you sharing your feelings triggering a point of no return is very concerning, IMO. She should be open to hearing you out if you are unhappy in your marriage. It's a huge red flag if she is not willing to engage with you at all on this. Have you had more open patterns of communication in the past?

 

The fact that you're unhappy enough to come here on LS and post is a sign that there's something that needs addressing. In your OP, it sounds as if the two of you have completely disconnected. Is there anything that you share (activities, interests, etc) that bring the two of you together?

[twinkles]

It sound to me like you are living more like brother and sister than husband and wife.

You have to ask yourself if this is the way you want to live the rest of your life and it would help if you asked her the same thing.

Communication is key.

Obviously there is a problem if you have discussed or even considered therapy with her.

You are being taken for granted and so is your relationship.

 

Do you initiate and get rejected or are the feelings just not there?

[maybealone]

I completely understand where you are coming from. My recommendation is to make a consultation appointment with an attorney to see what your best-case, worse-case, and average outcomes would be. Alimony for life sounds more like worse-case (where I am, the maximum is half the length of the marriage), and maybe she would be given a time limit to find a job.

 

And yes, there is a lot of guilt involved in seeing an attorney behind your spouse's back. I hated doing it, but I feel better having the knowledge I have now. And yes, it's hard to make a decision to leave when things aren't 80% bad. One way to look at it is to think about whether or not being alone is better that the situation you are in. For me, I'd rather be lonely (not from lack of companionship like in a roommate-type marriage, but lack of feeling bonded to a significant other like in a husband-wife marriage) and not getting any sex as a single person than being lonely and not getting any sex as a married person, but everyone is different.

[frozensprouts]

if talking to your wife about how you feel would mean the end of your relationship, then I would really question what type of relationship you really have...

 

how do you know this will be the end? have you actually tried to initiate the conversation and stopped because of her responses, or are you just assuming this will happen?

 

Based upon what you wrote, right now, I would say that you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by having a conversation with your wife about this. If you feel you can't actually talk to her about it because it will come out wrong , try writing it down to give to her.

 

best of luck to you

[OttawaMan]

Thank you for taking the time to reply everyone, I really appreciate it!

 

In the past three or four years I've tried to start the discussion twice; not even getting all that close to actually discussing a split, but it has been met with first (in my opinion dramatized) panic, then intense anger, followed by crying and promising to change, even though I wasn't asking for her to change. External therapy or counseling has been met with refusals as she has said they would just tell me to leave her. In some ways I suppose she isn't over her dependency issues from early in the relationship in that she still constantly tells me that she'd fall apart if I wasn't around, that she'd die, that she wouldn't know what to do, and so on.

 

It's not that I don't want to discuss it so much as it's just that I better be 100 percent ready for it to be the end both mentally and financially if I do decide to discuss it. That's what leads me here is thinking that there is something wrong and from the comments you've been kind enough to leave me so far, my suspicions seem confirmed.

 

Where I live alimony judgements are permanent and subject to periodic reviews (Spousal Support (Alimony) under Ontario divorce laws). It isn't uncommon for people in my situation (married 10+ years, spouse doesn't work) to be liable for alimony payments permanently. I know it sounds selfish, but this is why I want to be completely sure this is the road I need to go down to find happiness before I do it because it's highly likely to have a significant financial impact on me for the rest of my life.

 

To answer the other question on whether I initiate and get rejected, no I tend to not bother initiating at all, nor does she. We do have quite a bit of physical contact - holding hands, hugging, non-passionate kissing (if that makes sense), things just never go any further than that. We do share a few activities such as going out for dinner and shopping, not a lot past that though I guess when I think about it now.

[OttawaMan]

Looking at an online support calculator (which of course doesn't mean much), it looks like I'd be paying on average 46% of my after tax income with a maximum of 52%. This is of course tax deductible at the end of the year, but in my average take home I'd be taking roughly a 50% haircut. I did say that I make a comfortable amount, but cutting it in half makes it significantly less comfortable. It's enough to keep one household quite easily, not so much two households. Duration of support is estimated at 7.5 years minimum, 15 years maximum, so at least it's not permanent as I feared it would be. But still 15 years of paying, is that worth it? I know that I'm the one that has to answer that question, but the answer for the last few years has been constantly changing. I should also mention that regardless if she were to go after alimony or not, as far as I know if she were to apply for any kind of social assistance the government would pursue me for alimony as a primary support mechanism for her to keep her off of the social assistance rolls, at least this is how I understand it.

 

When she does go away for a weekend, or when I am away out of the country I very often think about what it would be like being single and even then I'm torn. I seem to hold up to it quite well and enjoy it, but I do realize that being alone for a week is a very poor indicator of what a single life would actually entail.

[CarrieT]

I certainly wish no ill on my wife as she has developed into one my best friends,

Wrong. You can talk openly and honestly with your best friend. Obviously you don't have that kind of relationship with your wife and the fact that you are here on on LS trying to resolve these issues shows that she is not a best friend.

 

she still constantly tells me that she'd fall apart if I wasn't around, that she'd die, that she wouldn't know what to do, and so on.

Well, the sad part is that you are buying into this and it simply is not true. People are a lot more resilient and strong and she will be just fine.

 

 

Counseling is not an option as my wife has made it crystal clear on other occasions that she would not participate as she does not agree with the practice.

That right there is a huge red flag. You are unhappy but you can't take steps to make life better for yourself? At least get counseling on your own?

 

Is it worth the financial hit it's going to be for me for the rest of my life if I call it off (I'm 40 now), and if so how do I avoid the major drama it is likely to cause? Or do I just live with it an accept where I'm at and tell myself "It could be worse"?

Is the money worth more to you than life-long happiness? Absolutely there will be drama, but you are not too late to find and experience passion, love, and true contentment. That is worth more than financial security - especially since you don't have kids.

[frozensprouts]

this may sound trite, but how much time do the two of you actually spend together just doing things that are fun?

 

have you tried a new hobby together, taken a vacation together somewhere that you have both always wanted to go?

 

Sometimes spouses can get caught up in their separate lives and forget that their relationship also needs to grow and evolve, and it's hard to do that when you both do so much separately.

 

One thing that my husband and i have found fun ( mind you, we take our three kids along) is camping- tent, not camper. I know it may sound silly, but there is something to be said for working together as a "team" to set up the tent, cook the meals over the campfire, and just look up at the stars at night..go up to Algonquin park with your wife...haven't been there is years, but it's a beautiful spot. Try and spend some time reconnecting and having fun. Go canoeing, etc.

 

I know that won't fix everything , but it's a start towards possible finding the love again, and you never know what can happen until you try.

[OttawaMan]

I guess that's a bit of a damnation on my social life as she is one of my best friends. I don't really have any others that are close enough to me to really discuss it with, at least not in complete and absolute trust. So maybe one can talk openly and honestly with a best friend in general, but in my case she is one of my best friends, but not a confidant.

 

And not trite at all, we probably spend very little time together doing things that are fun in hindsight. That's probably part of the problem I guess. Over the years we have developed different interests, she spends a lot of time with friends, I spend a lot of time working. The last vacation we took together was probably 9 or 10 years ago. She has accompanied me on a couple of work trips in the last couple of years, but normally I do not take vacations. She has gone on a couple of vacations with friends of hers as I mentioned previously.

 

So much to think on, but it seems that's all I ever do is think on it. I feel that I need to take action, but I just don't know what the action is that I have to take. Try to make it better somehow if I even have those feelings in me somewhere, or just end it.

[CarrieT]

Over the years we have developed different interests, she spends a lot of time with friends, I spend a lot of time working. The last vacation we took together was probably 9 or 10 years ago. She has accompanied me on a couple of work trips in the last couple of years, but normally I do not take vacations. She has gone on

I seriously think you need some bonding time with your wife. A vacation with just the two of you reconnecting.

 

So much to think on, but it seems that's all I ever do is think on it. I feel that I need to take action, but I just don't know what the action is that I have to take.

You said in an earlier post that you want some passion and the first step will be to create it yourself. I would heartily, heartily recommend a ROMANTIC vacation with your wife to see if there is enough there for you to salvage back into the relationship. And to TALK about your feelings!!!

 

If there aren't enough common denominators between the two of you for those stirrings to re-appear, than you probably need to look to the next step of a separation; find something you are passionate about besides work to re-invent yourself and re-awaken the man that you seem to have lost.

 

The separate lives you two are living is very sad and it appears you have both fallen into a comfortable complacency except that you are becoming uncomfortable in your own skin.

 

Best of luck.

[frozensprouts]

this may be a radical idea, but is there any way that you could see it clear to book a surprise vacation for your wife? Find out her schedule, and book a vacation o somewhere special, no cellphone or email allowed. Use that time to try and reconnect with your wife. you'll be somewhere new that neither of you have been and you can explore it together, and try new activities together too. Tell her you wanted to surprise her because you love her and want to be with her.

 

it won't fix everything (there are no quick fixes), but it may give you an idea of what is left between the two of you.

[The Blue Knight]

In marriage I don't think people should settle but that's me. The reason there are so many unhappy marriages and affairs out there is directly related to married couples who settle.

 

Your marriage has no zip in it. It's effectively dead and now you have what you call "a friend" in your wife. It's true that husbands and wives should be best friends, but that also entails lovers who share intimacy and put one another first and my read on your wife is she's not putting you first.

 

What it appears is that you both have is a comfortable existence. You mentioned a passionless marriage which tells me it's something that bothers you enough to bring it up. "Comfortable" marriages work for a lot of couples but you've hinted that you really miss the lusty part of your marriage and that's why long term it may not work out for the two of you. When people "settle" like you have those marriages are ripe for affairs to come along as we've seen so many times here on this site.

 

It's hard to tell if your wife is involved with someone based on what you wrote. She may be simply happy not being sexual with you and has moved on to hang with friends and watch TV and that's all she really needs . . . or she's getting it somewhere else. I guess it depends on how innately sexual a person she is and only you'd know that.

 

Your in one of those "no man's land" marriages where things could be a lot worse, but they could also be a lot better.

 

Like all problems posted here you're the only one who can decide what you want from your marriage and how much you're willing to tolerate where it's greatly lacking. From what you're describing you'd like a lot more than what you have currently in your marriage. Your wife strikes me as utterly "checked out" in that she has no desire to go to bed with you and she spends copious amounts of time with her friends (if that's indeed the case) as opposed to spending quality time with you.

 

I used to work night shifts and on my days off stayed up late because that was my sleep cycle. But I still went to bed with my wife so that we had the time to snuggle, to talk, and have "relations" even if I wasn't going to go to sleep right away. Your wife's behavior strikes me as cold and distant. Have you brought this up or do you just resign yourself to this is the way the relationship is now?

[denise_xo]

Have you considered getting some counselling for yourself?

[The Blue Knight]

Thank you for taking the time to reply everyone, I really appreciate it!

 

In the past three or four years I've tried to start the discussion twice; not even getting all that close to actually discussing a split, but it has been met with first (in my opinion dramatized) panic, then intense anger, followed by crying and promising to change, even though I wasn't asking for her to change. External therapy or counseling has been met with refusals as she has said they would just tell me to leave her. In some ways I suppose she isn't over her dependency issues from early in the relationship in that she still constantly tells me that she'd fall apart if I wasn't around, that she'd die, that she wouldn't know what to do, and so on.

 

It's not that I don't want to discuss it so much as it's just that I better be 100 percent ready for it to be the end both mentally and financially if I do decide to discuss it. That's what leads me here is thinking that there is something wrong and from the comments you've been kind enough to leave me so far, my suspicions seem confirmed.

 

Where I live alimony judgements are permanent and subject to periodic reviews (Spousal Support (Alimony) under Ontario divorce laws). It isn't uncommon for people in my situation (married 10+ years, spouse doesn't work) to be liable for alimony payments permanently. I know it sounds selfish, but this is why I want to be completely sure this is the road I need to go down to find happiness before I do it because it's highly likely to have a significant financial impact on me for the rest of my life.

 

To answer the other question on whether I initiate and get rejected, no I tend to not bother initiating at all, nor does she. We do have quite a bit of physical contact - holding hands, hugging, non-passionate kissing (if that makes sense), things just never go any further than that. We do share a few activities such as going out for dinner and shopping, not a lot past that though I guess when I think about it now.

 

Was sitting up all night watching TV part of "the change?"

[OttawaMan]

I have considered counseling for myself, but she is quite against me doing so (I had suggested that if she didn't want to go with me then maybe I could just go on my own - same deal, big blow up. She is determined that they will tell me to leave her). I guess coming to an anonymous online forum seems less going behind her back for advice than going to a counselor would be.

 

And yes there is lots of promise of change, but very little follow through. I shouldn't be the one to criticize really though as I am no different. I tell myself (and probably her as well) that there are things I will change, but it's pretty easy to just slide back into the old habits and behaviors. It's easy to not try I guess?

 

A great suggestion on the vacation, there wouldn't be a problem with her schedule as she isn't working and would probably enjoy it. The problem is my schedule as it's really not easy to get away for more than a day or two, which is where the no vacation for a lot of years has come in. I'll see what I can do however. Maybe it's time for a job change anyway - something I have been contemplating for a while.

[denise_xo]

I have considered counseling for myself, but she is quite against me doing so (I had suggested that if she didn't want to go with me then maybe I could just go on my own - same deal, big blow up. She is determined that they will tell me to leave her). I guess coming to an anonymous online forum seems less going behind her back for advice than going to a counselor would be.

 

And yes there is lots of promise of change, but very little follow through. I shouldn't be the one to criticize really though as I am no different. I tell myself (and probably her as well) that there are things I will change, but it's pretty easy to just slide back into the old habits and behaviors. It's easy to not try I guess?

 

A great suggestion on the vacation, there wouldn't be a problem with her schedule as she isn't working and would probably enjoy it. The problem is my schedule as it's really not easy to get away for more than a day or two, which is where the no vacation for a lot of years has come in. I'll see what I can do however. Maybe it's time for a job change anyway - something I have been contemplating for a while.

 

You can't let her set all the boundaries in that way. If she doesn't want to go - fine, her choice. But to object to you going? That's just not on. She is essentially holding you hostage.

[NervisPervis]

You understansd that your wife is no longer in love with you, don't you? You may not. They don't tell you when it's happening. One day you will figure it out and all of this will suddenly become chrystal clear. She will not admit it, but she won't do anything to change either. A HUGE percentage of wives fall out of love with their husbands. Mine did. And except for a few minor differences, you explained where my relationship was 3 years ago. 2 1/2 years ago I tried to fix it. Bad idea. Best you continue to believe you are best of friends and still in love. The truth will hurt.

 

Start emotionally separating yourself from her. Talk to that lawyer. Get your ducks in a row. My wife still pretends she's happy in our marriage which made this process hard. We still live together. Sleep in the same bed (only sleep, nothing else, not even conversation). But I am ready for that "I'm leaving you now" speech. Looking forward to it almost.

 

Good luck. It's worse than you think.

[mostlyclueless]

Ask her out on a date. If you aren't excited about her, why should she be excited about you?

[ZacThomas]

A healthy discussion is very important for every relationship. You must talk to your wife what you think about her and your married life. May she is able to answer your questions.

[findingnemo]

Your W loves the lifestyle and is comfortable. She doesn't love you like a man anymore but won't rock the boat because she may lose the perks. You give something - security perhaps?

 

I personally don't understand the whole concept of spousal support. I get child support but when there are no kids, I don't understand why anyone should look after another human being with two hands and two legs.

 

Since you don't want to lose your money, I'm going to give you some not so conventional advice. Get a transfer to another country if you can and leave her behind. Build some real distance. Discuss with her having an open M also. You may be surprised when she says it's fine. start having fun with your friends and have a sport or a hobby. Effectively start enriching your life without her. With time, either she'll decide to really change or she'll leave you to do whatever you want. If you find love somewhere else in the future, you can consider D.

 

But please... Don't let her box you into a corner. No therapy means no change. No change is good for her and disastrous for you. If you start enjoying life, she may get attracted to you again. You can only control yourself after all. So try that and see how it goes.

[mem11363]

Nemo,

This is good on so many levels. One reason my W and I have a happy, loving relationship is that I have asserted my boundaries consistently from the start.

 

In a really good marriage, which I believe we have, there is a tremendous emotional gravity field. And that makes "leaving" extraordinarily difficult for the person "trying to break free". Much easier for the other spouse to simply "accept" they aren't wanted anymore.

 

Directly threatening to leave someone over sexual issues, is apex aggression. But turning the tables completely is a different story. At the 20 year point, my W had a brief but intense melt down on me. Up until then our sex life had been good to great. Mostly great. Well for me at least - and I thought for her also. And suddenly coming into a weekend, she instigated and escalated a series of fights over nothing. Sunday night she rachets up from a normal level of conflict. And she does so on two fronts at the same time. She expesses that she is tired of fighting and can't take it anynoe (this was the soft threat of divorce). And proceeds to tell me our sex lie is over (we were both 48 at the time). This sex life comment was totally out of the blue.

 

So the next day we go for a 4 mile walk, and when we are 2 miles from the house I run my "script":

- Baby I have been thinking about what you said, and clearly all this pressure you feel to do something you don't want to do, is toxic and unfair to you.

- I am totally committed to the marriage.

- We both know celibacy won't work for us. Whenever I behaved in a manner you didn't like, you would conclude that it was do to a lack of sex.

Whenever I went out of my way to be nice, you would wonder if it was in the hope you would reconsider.

- Me finding a girl friend is unpredictable in a lot of ways.

- So the simple answer it for me to find a local massage parlor I can get a nice massage and a happy ending.

- And in parallel with that we both agree that we will have no sex - to avoid confusion and complications like jealousy.

 

She got angry. Said I was treating this like a business problem. And that my "pacing" for resolving this issue, was way to fast. To which I replied, "this is so important to you, that you are questionig the entire marriage". This isn't about me. It's about you. I am doing this to remove that toxic pressure you feel, and provide a low risk alternative.

 

By the end of the walk, she had told me she was totally committed to the M and as part of that a happy marriage she would - boink my brains out. And proceeded to sexually staturate me for the next few

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your W loves the lifestyle and is comfortable. She doesn't love you like a man anymore but won't rock the boat because she may lose the perks. You give something - security perhaps?

 

I personally don't understand the whole concept of spousal support. I get child support but when there are no kids, I don't understand why anyone should look after another human being with two hands and two legs.

 

Since you don't want to lose your money, I'm going to give you some not so conventional advice. Get a transfer to another country if you can and leave her behind. Build some real distance. Discuss with her having an open M also. You may be surprised when she says it's fine. start having fun with your friends and have a sport or a hobby. Effectively start enriching your life without her. With time, either she'll decide to really change or she'll leave you to do whatever you want. If you find love somewhere else in the future, you can consider D.

 

But please... Don't let her box you into a corner. No therapy means no change. No change is good for her and disastrous for you. If you start enjoying life, she may get attracted to you again. You can only control yourself after all. So try that and see how it goes.

[Bellechica]

Something that has been helping me reconnect with my H is the information on

 

Marriage Counseling – Free Marriage Help from Marriage Fitness with Mort Fertel

 

My H and I were living like siblings, much like you describe your M; however, we are both committed to reconnecting and your W needs to be willing to do her part. You really need to let her know how you feel and how serious a problem this is.

 

My H are doing so many more things together and coomunicating more. We go to the bed at the same time now. He used to go to bed early and I would stay up late. I wasn't watching TV by the way, I was texting another man. You may want to investigate what your wife is doing up so late.

 

Now that my H are going to bed together, we have at least had sex a few times. We were in a sexless M as well.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that BOTH partners must want the M to work and thrive. I love my H, and I want our passion back. He loves me as well. We have two great kids.