For men, when does character, morals, and pride override sexual desire?

[kaylan]

I really need to know the answer to this question. It seems like sex overrides so many things in a lot of guys minds. Yes for some women sex can override the same things that get overridden in men, but this happen way more often with men.

 

Weve all seen stories where friends, family, and careers get thrown out the window for sex. Recently we all heard the case of that teacher who just moved in with his student. He tackled all 3 in one swift move, all because he wanted to screw a girl his daughters age. I mean some dudes even backed up the guy on his decision, but obviously these were dudes who are brainwashed by pickup community stuff, so they arent representative of all dudes.

 

Either way guys will sleep with hookers, with chicks they arent even attracted to, with men even if they arent gay...but just because they need something other than their hand to get off. Then theres the guys who risk jail time because they seek sex with those under the age of 18...and then theres the horrible reality of rape.

 

Look, Im a guy...and I understand testosterone is a bitch...but what about character, morals, and pride....arent they more important than "busting a nut". Guys out there risk their whole livelihood because of this need for sex. This is throughout human history.

 

How can the most powerful gender, leaders of the world, masters of this realm...how can they all be so weak?

 

I have a super high sex drive myself...but I draw a line in the sand on certain things. I really wonder about all this...because I saw how an ex-buddy of mine had no pride when it came to sex. He would take what he could get, and even back stabbed me to get a piece of tail back in December, which is why we are no longer friends.

 

As I said, I know women are capable of the same things...but the rate at which they do these things is far lower....and with us supposedly being logical and rational as men are supposed to be, why in the world does a little more testosterone cause them to be so short sighted? Why does a slogan like "jerk off and then think about it" even need to exist.

 

I scratch my head...because guys will complain about the female monopoly on sex, but it exists because of our own collective behavior. I guess Im just different. I have morals, self control, and pride that wont let me do certain things. I know plenty of guys here are like me as well...but this is something Ive been thinking about lately.

 

Dudes cant complain about how they feel dating and sex are in a womans favor, and then keep playing the game the same exact way. I used to tell my ex friend that the most powerful thing he can do is adhere to higher standards and let women see this. Then the quality of chicks he would get would rise. Decent women dont want a guy whos penis does all his thinking. I think most dudes would understand this given the female aversion to guys who like prostitutes and/or kick game to minors.

 

But thats just me thinking theyd know better.

Edited March 10, 2012 by kaylan

[ptp]

Always.

 

The whole point of having character is adhering to your values during those times when the pressure is the greatest.

[irin]

wow thank you for writing this, i having being struggling with this. i find it difficult to ever let a man get near because of their approach to their own sexuality. im very disgusted by it i even tried to convince myself to become a lesbian but it didnt work obviously. every time a man looks at me i cant help but feel degraded in some way, the ones that approach me are just concerned with my appearance, they dont even care that i am human being. the idea of being use just for sex has put me off men completely which led me to being alone out of choice! i try hard not generalize but so far no one has proven me wrong!

[kaylan]

^Im not talking about JUST cheating. Did you skip over all the other things I said men were more prone to do because of a need for sex?

 

Please re read my post. This was not JUST about cheating.

[aj22one]

Weren't you the guy in some another thread who talked about how casual sex isn't that big of a deal?

 

I only do sex with a woman I'm in a relationship with. I only do relationships with women who have good character and morals. To this day I've never had a ONS or a FWB or done any hookers. I don't plan to start now either. So there's your answer.

[irin]

i think the western culture has some thing to do with as well, self control is valued as much as other cultures. and their behaviour approved by the media labelling extremely promiscuous young men as "studs", making it desirable. its seems as though their dicks define their whole existence.

[Feelin Frisky]

This is an excursion into what's called "sexism". There seems to be no limit to it here on LS and I guess it's that way in the greater world. Are "men" "created" somewhere and rolled out on a conveyor belt all with the same chemistry and capacity where what they do or don't do as individuals becomes a matter for blame and shame? Are women?

 

No. Each PERSON regardless of gender comes into the world in a bag of guts one at at time from uniquely matched or mismatched gene sources. They are unique. And what they are exposed to and neglected of is their experience alone. Talk of "men" being this way or "women" being that is SEXISM pure and simple. It's not debate--it's speculation and generalization within the sexism confine.

 

My testosterone has a role in defining my drives, but testosterone does not limit me to being a hapless unit of maleness who is just a Caboose behind a penis. When I'm hurt because of a breakup my testosterone my make me angry for a while but also I say to myself I'm just a hurt human being that just wants to be cared about and loved and even held. That unites me with what everyone else is including persons who happen to be female. My gender is not my over-riding descriptor, my aloneness, my sensitivity, my resilience define me as an individual. To engage in gender generalities is analogous to what used to go on openly with race. It's wrong and foolish but society hasn't caught up to making "social development" an educational imperative and thus, sexism is a social default. It's up to you to either stay on that boat or get off and get real that it's meaningless and idle speculation.

[kaylan]

Weren't you the guy in some another thread who talked about how casual sex isn't that big of a deal?

 

I only do sex with a woman I'm in a relationship with. I only do relationships with women who have good character and morals. To this day I've never had a ONS or a FWB or done any hookers. I don't plan to start now either. So there's your answer.

Can you guys PLEASE read and understand the entire OP before commenting.

 

This is not about casual sex. I highlighted many other things. Being ok with casual sex is a totally different thing from dudes being more prone to throw their lives away because of sexual urges. Sleeping with minors, students, rape, molestation, low standards, prostitution, etc are all different from casual sex.

 

Jeez. How are you guys not understanding my OP?

 

This is an excursion into what's called "sexism". There seems to be no limit to it here on LS and I guess it's that way in the greater world. Are "men" "created" somewhere and rolled out on a conveyor belt all with the same chemistry and capacity where what they do or don't do as individuals becomes a matter for blame and shame? Are women?

 

No. Each PERSON regardless of gender comes into the world in a bag of guts one at at time from uniquely matched or mismatched gene sources. They are unique. And what they are exposed to and neglected of is their experience alone. Talk of "men" being this way or "women" being that is SEXISM pure and simple. It's not debate--it's speculation and generalization within the sexism confine.

 

My testosterone has a role in defining my drives, but testosterone does not limit me to being a hapless unit of maleness who is just a Caboose behind a penis. When I'm hurt because of a breakup my testosterone my make me angry for a while but also I say to myself I'm just a hurt human being that just wants to be cared about and loved and even held. That unites me with what everyone else is including persons who happen to be female. My gender is not my over-riding descriptor, my aloneness, my sensitivity, my resilience define me as an individual. To engage in gender generalities is analogous to what used to go on openly with race. It's wrong and foolish but society hasn't caught up to making "social development" an educational imperative and thus, sexism is a social default. It's up to you to either stay on that boat or get off and get real that it's meaningless and idle speculation.

Since when is it sexism to take notice that men are more prone to certain sexual activities and behaviors?

 

I was simply pointing out some truths.

[aj22one]

Can you guys PLEASE read and understand the entire OP before commenting.

 

This is not about casual sex. I highlighted many other things. Being ok with casual sex is a totally different thing from dudes being more prone to throw their lives away because of sexual urges. Sleeping with minors, students, rape, molestation, low standards, prostitution, etc are all different from casual sex.

 

Jeez. How are you guys not understanding my OP?

 

I consider the issues linked. If you delay gratification and hold out for someone you actually think is worth spending a bit more than a few adrenaline, hormone fueled minutes with then you wouldn't have problems with low standards and the like.

 

Molestation, rape, and "statutory rape" (aka power abuse) has nothing to do with testosterone and the drive for sex though.

[kaylan]

I consider the issues linked. If you delay gratification and hold out for someone you actually think is worth spending a bit more than a few adrenaline, hormone fueled minutes with then you wouldn't have problems with low standards and the like.

 

Molestation, rape, and "statutory rape" (aka power abuse) has nothing to do with testosterone and the drive for sex though.

Casual sex is not the same as the other issues. Im sorry but you are far off.

 

And to think none of these sexual crimes are linked to a sexual hormone...you must be kidding. The hormones cause the sex drive...which in turn triggers behavior. Its not simply power alone.

[Woggle]

Women are just as bad. How else do you explain the attraction to men like Ted Bundy?

[aj22one]

Casual sex is not the same as the other issues. Im sorry but you are far off.

 

If you keep your genitals in your pants until you're official with some chick (or at least past a few dates) you can make a far better determination of someone then if you just hook up. I don't see how you can't see that.

 

And to think none of these sexual crimes are linked to a sexual hormone...you must be kidding. The hormones cause the sex drive...which in turn triggers behavior. Its not simply power alone.

 

Why then, do some people rape others with objects instead of sex organs? Rape is about power not sex.

[kaylan]

Women are just as bad. How else do you explain the attraction to men like Ted Bundy?

How does this answer what I said in my OP, about why the rates for such behavior are much higher in men. Im talking about rates, not if women can be just as bad.

 

I SAID women can be just as bad and are in some cases....but the rates are far lower for such behavior. Thats what we should be talking about. Why the different rates.

If you keep your genitals in your pants until you're official with some chick (or at least past a few dates) you can make a far better determination of someone then if you just hook up. I don't see how you can't see that.

Omg, this is not about casual sex. I can have casual sex easily and have in the past. Many men and women have as well. But I wont do the things highlighted in my OP, and also the rates are lower for that behavior in women. Explain that.

 

Why then, do some people rape others with objects instead of sex organs? Rape is about power not sex.

Rape is not solely about power. Just because some folks rape people with objects does not mean hormones have nothing to do with it. If men were all castrated and without a sex drive, rapes would occur far less. Lets be real here. Sexual activity decreases with a lower sex drive.

 

I think hormones have a lot to do with it. Women make up over 70% of public school teachers in this country. They have power...but they dont hook up with their students at the same rate as men do...even if the numbers have risen in recent years, the rate amongst male teachers is still much greater.

 

If hormones have nothing to do with that...please explain to me what caused it. Explain to me why nuns were not coming out of the woodwork as molesters, but priests were. Lets be real. I know hormones are strong, but Id like to think the brain can override sex.

 

Also, lets not only focus on rape and molestation. Also focus on the other issues I presented in my OP.

Edited March 10, 2012 by kaylan

[aj22one]

Rape is not solely about power. If men were all castrated and without a sex drive, rapes would occur far less. Lets be real here. Sexual activity decreases with a lower sex drive.

 

I think rape and molestation is a complicated interplay between hormones, psychological and sociological factors, and a small part sex drive.

 

I think hormones have a lot to do with it. Women make up over 70% of public school teachers in this country. They have power...but they dont hook up with their students at the same rate as men do...even if the numbers have risen in recent years, the rate amongst male teachers is still much greater.

 

If hormones have nothing to do with that...please explain to me what caused it. Explain to me why nuns were not coming out of the woodwork as molesters, but priests were. Lets be real. I know hormones are strong, but Id like to think the brain can override sex.

 

Hormones play some role, as do sociological factors. For one male victims of rape and molestation are less likely to come forward do to shame and embarrassment (not to say that women don't have these feelings too though).

 

Regardless, I said you can keep it in your pants and hold out for someone you really like. Make sex part of a relationship and not just some ends in itself.

[silvermercy]

Well, I don't know about the other things mentioned, but when it comes to illegal stuff like rape or child abuse, I think it's a combination of hormones AND something else that has become twisted in the perpetrator's mind. I'm not sure if it holds true but it is said that rapists usually rape not for the sexual urge alone but mostly for the power it gives them over the victim. (On the other hand, they may gain get extra stimulation because of that extra power, so we're back at square one really: hormones). So who knows really... It is an interesting food for thought. I still think this over-ride mechanism comes from a combination of male hormones and other perverted things.

[kaylan]

I think rape and molestation is a complicated interplay between hormones, psychological and sociological factors, and a small part sex drive.

So you just agreed with what Ive been saying despite arguing with me before.

 

Hormones play a role. Glad we can agree sir.

 

Hormones play some role, as do sociological factors. For one male victims of rape and molestation are less likely to come forward do to shame and embarrassment (not to say that women don't have these feelings too though).

 

Regardless, I said you can keep it in your pants and hold out for someone you really like. Make sex part of a relationship and not just some ends in itself.

Sociology plays into it, but lets not pretend that for every male victim who doesnt come forward, there isnt plenty of female victims who dont come forward either. Because there are plenty of women who dont report their attacks...which sucks like woah.

 

Where does that leave us? Still trying to explain why the bad behaviors in my OP are more common among men than women. I personally blame testosterone...but at the same time, as a logical and rational male, I feel guys should easily be able to override such urges. Especially when it comes to giving women a monopoly over sex.

 

And about your last point...I can def make sex a more important part of a relationship depending on the girl. It really depends on the woman and where I want our relationship to go.

[Diamonds&Rust]

I also hear a lot about evolutionary biology when it comes to rationalizing the type of behavior you're referring to. I think this notion that men have certain behaviors hard-wired into their cells, while ridiculous, is pervasive enough to let many of them off the hook.

 

Others have also pointed out the lack of conspicuous social condemnation.

Can you guys PLEASE read and understand the entire OP before commenting.

Your demand that every post canonically address each behavior is unreasonably articulated. The accusation that people aren't reading or understanding your thread because you don't like what they're responding to seems unfair.

Since when is it sexism to take notice that men are more prone to certain sexual activities and behaviors?

I think the argument for sexism was pretty cogent. Maybe you should PLEASE read it?

 

But seriously, check out Availability heuristic

I personally blame testosterone...but at the same time, as a logical and rational male, I feel guys should easily be able to override such urges.

Wishful thinking. Testosterone is probably simplifying things, but if you look at the brain as a physicalist machine then you also have to concede that the perception of free will is largely a by-product of those chemical reactions, not a precipitant to them.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Diamonds&Rust

[kaylan]

I also hear a lot about evolutionary biology when it comes to rationalizing the type of behavior you're referring to. I think this notion that men have certain behaviors hard-wired into their cells, while ridiculous, is pervasive enough to let many of them off the hook.

 

Others have also pointed out the lack of conspicuous social condemnation.

I agree with what you said about people using evo-theory to get off the hook. Its a tactic used all the time to excuse bad behavior. However, though nature is a big influence in our behavior, nurture is very strong as well, and I feel many evo-theorists ignore this.

 

Your demand that every post canonically address each behavior is unreasonably articulated. The accusation that people aren't reading or understanding your thread because you don't like what they're responding to seems unfair.

How is it unfair? One cannot throw out my entire question and assertion simply because "women do it just as much too" in only one of the cases...that being cheating.

 

In all the other cases, the rates are far higher among men, and thats what I wanted to get to the bottom of. Us men see ourselves as highly logical, rational and able to separate ourselves from our emotions. When in reality it is hard for us. Lust is an emotion.

I think the argument for sexism was pretty cogent. Maybe you should PLEASE read it?

 

But seriously, check out Availability heuristic

I did read it...trying to label facts as sexism is a pretty weak route to take. Arguing sexism because of a highlighted difference in gender behavior seems like stretch to me.

 

I agree with FeelinFrisky's post that not all men come off some conveyor belt and behave the same way. However, we are all the same, yet we are all different. Get what I am saying. We have many similarities because we are all men, but unique personal differences as well. To say men or women are more prone to certain behavior would not be sexist, especially when this fact exists in regards to many situations.

 

These differences in the rates of behavior are realities which I want to get down to the bottom of.

Wishful thinking. Testosterone is probably simplifying things, but if you look at the brain as a physicalist machine then you also have to concede that the perception of free will is largely a by-product of those chemical reactions, not a precipitant to them.

I really like this point. It makes one ask, "what comes first?..the mind or the hormones?...which controls the other?"

 

Great addition to the convo

 

P.S. - Whos the guy in your avatar...looks like Andre 3000 to me...but I think im wrong.

Edited March 10, 2012 by kaylan

[NotForTheDough]

pretty much what "ptp" said. Always

[aj22one]

So you just agreed with what Ive been saying despite arguing with me before.

 

Hormones play a role. Glad we can agree sir.

 

I think you overstate the impact of hormones, that's where we disagree.

 

Sociology plays into it, but lets not pretend that for every male victim who doesnt come forward, there isnt plenty of female victims who dont come forward either. Because there are plenty of women who dont report their attacks...which sucks like woah.

 

I never said there weren't women who didn't come forward. To be quite frank I don't think we'll ever really truly know the numbers of men or women who don't come forward. All the studies are nothing more than educated guesses.

 

Where does that leave us? Still trying to explain why the bad behaviors in my OP are more common among men than women. I personally blame testosterone...but at the same time, as a logical and rational male, I feel guys should easily be able to override such urges. Especially when it comes to giving women a monopoly over sex.

 

They can. They just choose not to. Crappy people do crappy things to other people. Women do crappy things too. Even crappy sexual things.

[kaylan]

I think you overstate the impact of hormones, that's where we disagree.

Overstate? Not at all. I recognize the sociological (nurture) aspects of our behavior...but we know that collectively women dont behave the same way men do sexually and that hormones play a huge part in this.

 

 

I never said there weren't women who didn't come forward. To be quite frank I don't think we'll ever really truly know the numbers of men or women who don't come forward. All the studies are nothing more than educated guesses.

Why minimize stats as an educated guess? With or without every rape victim coming forward, women are attacked at a largely greater rate than men. And we know men commit these crimes at a far greater rate. We know this is truth. I was simply asking why this is.

 

They can. They just choose not to. Crappy people do crappy things to other people. Women do crappy things too. Even crappy sexual things.

And thats what I want to find out. Why exactly do some men choose not to override their urges as much as women and other men might?

 

Saying women do crappy things as well does not answer why exactly there exist more men who are slaves to their hormones than women who are slaves to their hormones.

 

Thats like someone asking "why are there more short women than men" and then you answering "well there are plenty of short men out there". That response does not answer the question. The question is asking why the difference in rates, not if both groups have individuals who exhibited the same characteristics or traits.

[aj22one]

 

Saying women do crappy things as well does not answer why exactly there exist more men who are slaves to their hormones than women who are slaves to their hormones.

 

Thats like someone asking "why are there more short women than men" and then you answering "well there are plenty of short men out there". That response does not answer the question. The question is asking why the difference in rates, not if both groups have individuals who exhibited the same characteristics or traits.

 

Are you sure that more men are slaves to their hormones than women? I'm not sold. I'd be willing to bet just as many women have a hard time controlling themselves as men do. The only difference being that a) you don't hear about it as much and b) some of the stuff that men end up doing is illegal (like prostitution).

[kaylan]

I used cheating to illustrate my point. I didn't feel like going into every point separately. My point is that the behavior you're talking about is not limited to men.

 

It takes two people to have sex. Women join in on the f*ck fest just as much. I don't believe the myth that it's just guys. I've seen too much in order to believe that.

Where in my OP did I say any of those behaviors were limited to men? Please quote where I said that, because Im pretty sure I said women did these same things. I also went on to say that many of the behaviors I pointed out happen in far greater frequency amongst men, after which I asked why is this so.

 

So if you could ponder about that and add to the discussion further, thatd be swell.

Are you sure that more men are slaves to their hormones than women? I'm not sold. I'd be willing to bet just as many women have a hard time controlling themselves as men do. The only difference being that a) you don't hear about it as much and b) some of the stuff that men end up doing is illegal (like prostitution).

Youd be willing to bet on something that isnt seen or provable...ok.

 

Sure there are some women who act out in the way some men do. But the question stands...why does this occur more often in men than women. Dont just hypotheize that its because "we dont hear about it as much". We are in a generation of round the clock news, tabloids, and information. All of which men control...so if women were doing these things at the same rate, you know damn well wed here about it.

 

Also when it comes to many of the things I highlighted, most men and women here could easily recall from experiences around them, that men do those things more often. This is not about just casual sex as you guys tried to make it. Its about all of those things I pointed out.

 

I never said women dont ever do the same things men do. Im asking why men do them more often. Simple. Now please answer that.

Edited March 10, 2012 by kaylan

[aj22one]

Youd be willing to bet on something that isnt seen or provable...ok.

 

It was a figure of speech. But I'm sure you knew that already and just wanted to be provocative .

 

 

Sure there are some women who act out in the way some men do. But the question stands...why does this occur more often in men than women. Dont just hypotheize that its because "we dont hear about it as much". We are in a generation of round the clock news, tabloids, and information. All of which men control...so if women were doing these things at the same rate, you know damn well wed here about it.

 

Not if it won't sell. It's easy to sell "crusty old, sinister male teacher has sex with student". Why? Because men are stereotyped as being authority figures while the female is supposed to be the victim. Hence, the socialization we receive about who is bad and who is good.

 

Also when it comes to many of the things I highlighted, most men and women here could easily recall from experiences around them, that men do those things more often. This is not about just casual sex as you guys tried to make it. Its about all of those things I pointed out.

 

I never said women dont ever do the same things men do. Im asking why men do them more often. Simple. Now please answer that.

 

I know women who had revenge sex, cheated on a spouse who had cheated on them first. Cheated on a spouse to get their attention. Women who wanted revenge on their restrictive conservatives families who went out and slept with the entire town police force. Etc.

 

In fact I know more women who did these things than I know men who did stuff like frequent prostitutes or have sex with underaged girls.

[kaylan]

I never said you said that. Quote me where I said that YOU said that.

Then what was ever the point of continually stating "women do it too" when I said exactly that in my OP. Whats the purpose of answering my OP by arguing and repeating a fact I stated that doesnt even come close to answering my question.

 

Which was what I was refuting.

What is there to refute. It is a fact that many of those behaviors occur in men at a greater rate than women. What citations can you provide to disprove this other than your assertions?

 

Your tone is annoying me. I'm participating in your thread and contributing my time. You can show some respect.

Grow a thicker skin buddy. I simply asked you to answer my question. Ive asked more than twice now and you kept missing the beat.

 

I already said that I think the difference in numbers isn't that great. That's based on studies. On proof. (in regards to cheating, which was the example I used to illustrate my point)

Thats just cheating. And there is proof that men and women cheat at the same rate. I wasnt arguing that, so you poorly illustrated your point. How about illustrated your point with the other behaviors I highlighted.

 

Can you? Because facts show those behaviors exist at a far greater rate in men than women. I never said in my OP that women cheated less than men. So please back up your assertions that the difference in numbers isnt that great with the other behaviors.

 

But to answer your question on why I think there is a difference, I think it's because men produce sperm constantly and need to unload often. It makes them less selective and the frequency with which they need to unload makes them susceptible to cross moral guidelines more often.

Which goes back to my belief that higher testosterone production is to blame. I get very horny sometimes due to the high sex drive, and sometimes Ive come close to slipping on my standards and shagging a chick I wouldnt normally kick it to.

 

But my rational mind kicks in....and I wonder in regard to that behavior and others, why dont other guys rational minds kick in as well. I guess I can only explain that part as a difference in will power and character.

 

Women on the other hand are born with all the eggs they'll ever have, which makes them more selective. Hence they'll get into less situations where they're susceptible to cross moral guidelines.

 

And then I'm looking at it from a biological standpoint.

Again. I think this is about testosterone which promotes sex drive. Not just a sperm and egg thing. I hypothesize that if women had the same amount of testosterone males did, that they would bug out in regards to sex as much as men do.

 

I also think they would commit more violent crimes as well, seeing as hormones play a role in aggression. Either way I still wonder why the mind doesnt overtake hormonal urges, especially in situations involving crime or morality.

Edited March 10, 2012 by kaylan