joystickd Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I put my friends first. If we develop a very serious relationship and all that jazz, then yes of course he would come first. But we have to get to that level before any changes happen. Until then, a new man would not have any priority over my friends. Touching base on your mention of inclusivity, a new man would not have to stay separate from my friends. But I don't know what you mean by "including" them in my relationships. They aren't part of my romantic relationships, much like how my boyfriend is not part of my friendships. That doesn't mean that the two can't interact or become friends themselves, but it also doesn't mean that you have to mesh all in one and call it a day. This why I refuse to date women with male friends. I dont say that because I'm insecure. I don't have female friends because I know at some point it maybe drama with them if i meet someone. If I don't do it out of respect I expect the same in return. Its just like honesty I'm honest about everything so I expect that in return. I don't ask no one to do anything I'm not doing myself. 2
kaylan Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I have plenty of guy friends, and I love them all (not romantically of course). I couldn't give a rats ass what my boyfriends or dates think of them, because they are my friends. They were there before he came, and they will be there after he goes. I have gone for coffee individually with them, and if any man has a problem, then I can't date him. But I do agree that there is a double standard here. If a man does the same with a woman, he is most likely pursuing her. I don't know why this is, but I do agree it's the truth. It's not fair that I can go hang with my guys when my bf would be labeled an assh*le if he did the same, but I admit that I would have second thoughts. Hmm...interesting. Men know that most of your guy friends want to screw you. Simple. This is why dudes have a problem with a chick who has many guy friends. We acknowledge the fact that most male-female friendships have some sexual tension within them. 1
dasein Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Putting proven friends first is fine, but saying again, it isn't zero sum, if a woman who has asked me for exclusivity (I never ask, it's usually the first proactive step the woman takes in a relationship, so we either continue to date unexclusive or they bring it up, usually on the 4-10th date... only fair since I have done everything to forward the relationship up to then). For example, IME, many times (at least dozens over 20 years), the following plays out. I have had a woman expressly make exclusive BF noises or we have actually agreed to be exclusive, then disrespect me using "friends" as an excuse. Usually, it's early in exclusivity, we have set plans. I get a call "My friends are giving me hell because we apparently had plans before you and I had plans," or some variation. 99% of the time this is BS manipulation and gamesmanship, usually an out and out lie. She is trying to make a power play on me while getting bragging rights with her friends about how wrapped she has me. We aren't stupid, despite how stupid women think we are. Used to be I would be "Mr. Understanding and Reasonable" about this. Never again, after bad experience. The "iron boot" comes down, it works soooo much better,"I see, then since you obviously don't attribute the same importance to our relationship as to your friends, perhaps exclusivity talk is premature. It's OK I understand. We can get together... some other time (all said in a very matter of fact unemotional, not mad way, lawlz, works every time)." This results in a shrieking, crying fit 100% of the time, and ends up backfiring in her face because most men are conciliatory pussies where women are concerned, to their detriment, and she has never been called out. If women would simply weight their budding relationships equally to their preexisting ones, giving them the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't have to ever be a meanie in this way. As it works out, they end up losing the power game every time. I don't like such games, but women force us into the Machiavelli role, or they lose respect for us... "better to be feared than loved" and all that. Unfortunate, but bet every single experienced man on this forum has gone through this many times, it seems to be epidemic with women and their "friends." It's just one of the ways a woman's "friends" can be hot buttons. If you want a happy man who feels respected, involve your friends with him early and often. If he doesn't want to meet your friends, its a good barometer for you that he isn't really into the relationship that much (and vice versa if she has no interest in his friends).
FrustratedStandards Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Men know that most of your guy friends want to screw you. Simple. This is why dudes have a problem with a chick who has many guy friends. We acknowledge the fact that most male-female friendships have some sexual tension within them. Aha! Yes, that makes sense. Hah! I can't believe I never noticed it before.
FrustratedStandards Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Putting proven friends first is fine, but saying again, it isn't zero sum, if a woman who has asked me for exclusivity (I never ask, it's usually the first proactive step the woman takes in a relationship, so we either continue to date unexclusive or they bring it up, usually on the 4-10th date... only fair since I have done everything to forward the relationship up to then). For example, IME, many times (at least dozens over 20 years), the following plays out. I have had a woman expressly make exclusive BF noises or we have actually agreed to be exclusive, then disrespect me using "friends" as an excuse. Usually, it's early in exclusivity, we have set plans. I get a call "My friends are giving me hell because we apparently had plans before you and I had plans," or some variation. 99% of the time this is BS manipulation and gamesmanship, usually an out and out lie. She is trying to make a power play on me while getting bragging rights with her friends about how wrapped she has me. We aren't stupid, despite how stupid women think we are. Used to be I would be "Mr. Understanding and Reasonable" about this. Never again, after bad experience. The "iron boot" comes down, it works soooo much better,"I see, then since you obviously don't attribute the same importance to our relationship as to your friends, perhaps exclusivity talk is premature. It's OK I understand. We can get together... some other time (all said in a very matter of fact unemotional, not mad way, lawlz, works every time)." This results in a shrieking, crying fit 100% of the time, and ends up backfiring in her face because most men are conciliatory pussies where women are concerned, to their detriment, and she has never been called out. If women would simply weight their budding relationships equally to their preexisting ones, giving them the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't have to ever be a meanie in this way. As it works out, they end up losing the power game every time. I don't like such games, but women force us into the Machiavelli role, or they lose respect for us... "better to be feared than loved" and all that. Unfortunate, but bet every single experienced man on this forum has gone through this many times, it seems to be epidemic with women and their "friends." It's just one of the ways a woman's "friends" can be hot buttons. If you want a happy man who feels respected, involve your friends with him early and often. If he doesn't want to meet your friends, its a good barometer for you that he isn't really into the relationship that much (and vice versa if she has no interest in his friends). Hmmm... yeah I understand where you're coming from... But what would be the reasonable solution to all of this? She can't get rid of her friends for you, but she can't always put them first either. What would be the best way to handle this?
zengirl Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Real friends do things FOR EACH OTHER. The favors and expressions of friendship aren't all one way. A man who does favors for your GF all the time without returned favors is in all likelihood not a real friend, but pursuing her sexually. Friendship isn't keeping score, but after a point, you can tell who is a real friend and who is attempting to chase based on reciprocated behavior or lack of it. Wow, I've totally agreed with you twice this week. Weird! But, yes, this is very true---real friends do help each other. (Various levels, depending how "good" of friends they are, of course.) Real friendships are not one-sided, and if your SO has a bunch of lopsided friendships, I'd beware, no matter what gender they are---that says something about a person. An SO ALWAYS wants you to know and be friends with their true friends, regardless of gender, unless the rare case that they know you and the friend would be like oil and water, and this estimation isn't because of "competition." A respectful SO will take steps to make all their real friends friends of the relationship as well, if not actually friends of yours. True, as well. I do not think it's healthy to keep your friends (male or female) "away" from your SO. That doesn't mean you can never have a night out without the SO, though the SO should generally be invited unless there's some truly legitimate reason why they cannot come (most of those are gender-split, like "It's a bachelor party," or "It's a girl's night---B's boyfriend just dumped her" or whatever, but theoretically some are not). Recent exes are presumed NOT to be real friends until proven otherwise. Distant exes, the longer the relationship, the stronger the presumption that they aren't real friends. Rule of thumb is, if they broke up within a year, yet still maintain contact, likely not real friends. If they dated years ago in HS and keep in touch now, more likely it is a legit friendship. I think that's reasonable too. I mean, I think you can be friends with an ex, but generally need some time off first. However, this assuming men and women can never be friends is bizarre to me. I think it's absolutely fine when you're seeing signs that something is 'fishy' to speak up --- if your SO is hiding his/her friends (opposite or same sex!) from you, that's a sign that something is probably off. If your SO's best friend is his/her most recent ex, that's a little odd and a warning flag of sorts. Etcetera. But if a guy thinks all men cannot be sincere friends with women or vice versa, it just tells me that HE cannot be sincere friends with a woman, which also tells me he's probably not a very good partner. However, you are 100% right that real friendships are not 1-sided.
dasein Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Hmmm... yeah I understand where you're coming from... But what would be the reasonable solution to all of this? She can't get rid of her friends for you, but she can't always put them first either. What would be the best way to handle this? To avoid absolutes like "my preexisting friends always come first" in favor of "I will not play friends against BFs, especially if choosing friends sends disrespect signals to a relatively new BF." We guys are sooo much sweeter and better when we feel respected by the woman we are with. Of course, not talking about controlling SOs who try to restrict their SO out of insecurity and emotional problems, but those are easy to spot. Again, it's a great way to find out whether someone is into you or not. Every time I've been dating a woman who was hesitant to meet my friends of either gender, didn't introduce me to hers, or who just didn't really care whether she met them or not, she wasn't that into the relationship. Same with men.
dasein Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Wow, I've totally agreed with you twice this week. Because being married to a good man has made you more rational, LOL.
FrustratedStandards Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Again, it's a great way to find out whether someone is into you or not. Every time I've been dating a woman who was hesitant to meet my friends of either gender, didn't introduce me to hers, or who just didn't really care whether she met them or not, she wasn't that into the relationship. Same with men. Actually yes, this is very true. If i'm serious about a man, I make sure my friends know about him and meet him. If i'm not, I couldn't care less. Good point. 1
zengirl Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Because being married to a good man has made you more rational, LOL. And then you say things like that, and I remember why I'm surprised. No, I would've agreed with the 2 posts I did long before I married FWIW. But common ground can be found in many surprising places.
dasein Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 And then you say things like that, and I remember why I'm surprised. No, I would've agreed with the 2 posts I did long before I married FWIW. But common ground can be found in many surprising places. LOL, look you know my hot buttons as well as anyone around here, and it doesn't surprise me at all that we can agree on POVs when those buttons aren't getting in the way. I have always thought you were a thoughtful, intelligent poster who offers good advice.
zengirl Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 LOL, look you know my hot buttons as well as anyone around here, and it doesn't surprise me at all that we can agree on POVs when those buttons aren't getting in the way. I have always thought you were a thoughtful, intelligent poster who offers good advice. Aw, thanks. Yes, I do think much of your advice is good as well---except for those points were we distinctly disagree. But I thought your breakdown here was especially good. Really, anyone who's concerned about that issue should refer to that as a resource.
The_Joker Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I am VERY curious as to what age group you all are in, because this concept of guys and girls cannot be just friends is COMPLETELY new to me, a foreign concept, and I have NEVER seen or heard of this idea ever before until now?!?! That being said, I am a guy in my early 20s, still in college/university, and part of the younger demographic, so maybe that is where the difference lies, perhaps those that believe men can never be just friends with women and vice versa are all in a much older age group (of which I would also very much disagree through my observations, maybe it is a difference in culture? - I am from North America, for reference). I myself have many female friends, more than I have male friends actually, but I would not sleep with over 90% of them or even think of pursuing a relationship with them. Most of them, to me are simply friends, people I know from class (high school, university), sport team, student government, other extracurriculars, etc. And everyone I encounter on a daily basis has both male and female friends. No, it is not true that a male wants to have sex with every female that crosses their vision, and more often than not, groups of friends I encounter have both men and women, it is in fact, actually extremely rare for a group of friends to just consist of guys or just girls, this is what I have observed. 1
PrincessPeach Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I have gone for coffee individually with them, and if any man has a problem, then I can't date him. But I do agree that there is a double standard here. If a man does the same with a woman, he is most likely pursuing her. I don't know why this is, but I do agree it's the truth. It's not fair that I can go hang with my guys when my bf would be labeled an assh*le if he did the same, but I admit that I would have second thoughts. Hmm...interesting. This doesn't make sense to me. So if you and one of your guy friends go out for coffee or something and you both happen to be seeing someone, from your point of view it's just two friends, no harm intended. But your male friend is likely pursuing you by going out with you? So it's the same exact get-together, but from one couple's perspective it should be okay and the other's it shouldn't? you either have to think he must be trying to pursue you or understand that a guy can go out with a girl without any intent of pursuing. It's not so much of a double standard as it is a lapse in common sense. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I don't have hardly any male friends. The few that I do are ones that liked me at some point and got over it (or lowed me on their priority), or one's that I liked and never panned out (and still might have a small crush on ). Hmmm... yeah I understand where you're coming from... But what would be the reasonable solution to all of this? She can't get rid of her friends for you, but she can't always put them first either. What would be the best way to handle this? This seems pretty obvious to me. If I have genuinely double-scheduled myself with both the boyfriend and my friends this is what I do: I go to my friends and say something along the lines of "Hey, I screwed up and made plans to go out with ___ on the night we're supposed to go out. I don't want to cancel with you guys, is it okay if I invite him along?" If they are actual friends, they should want to meet the guy I'm dating if they haven't and if they have met him they should get used to him being around. As for the guy, if he is interested in me he should understand that I already did have plans, he should have interest in meeting my friends or hanging out with them because he should get used to them being around, and hopefully he understands that I am not trying to disrespect him as I am still inviting him out with me rather than just cancelling, just in a maybe different capacity.
JohnP82 Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 After my most recent ex, I'm extremely leery of women who have tons of male friends. I have some female friends, but not a lot. I would consider only one to be close and she's married to one of my best friends. I think in the future if I meet a woman with a lot of male friends, I would likely pass. How some women cannot see when she has an orbiter, I will never understand. 1
JohnP82 Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 I don't have hardly any male friends. The few that I do are ones that liked me at some point and got over it (or lowed me on their priority), or one's that I liked and never panned out (and still might have a small crush on ). This is what I'm talking about. You have orbiters and most guys that you would date can see that. Also why would I as a potential dater want to date a girl that may have a crush on one of the guys she hangs out with often. 1
Untouchable_Fire Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 I've caught 2 women cheating on me, both times it was with a "male friend". I have always wondered how a guy is supposed to tell the difference between an acceptable friendship and one that is unacceptable. Most of us simply are not that perceptive. Trust is good, naive is bad. 3
cutecatch Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement. I have many male friends. Granted, most of them are work acquaintances, but a few of us do get together outside of work. Some are single, some are married, some have girlfriends. Many times, I became friends with their wives first, then got to know their husbands and we are all friends now. It is important to place appropriate boundaries on these friendships and keep things open and honest. In the case of my male married friends, I've met all of their wives and would never do anything that would piss them off. Same thing with the girlfriends of my male friends (in one case, one of them is an ex-boyfriend). I recognize that my friendship (to some extent) depends on the good will of their spouse/girlfriend. Some of these male friends have existed for well over 5 years. Some approaching 10 years.... with no sex between us. I would be really hurt if they dumped me as a friend whenever they meet someone new. AND... I would not expect someone I date to expect me to dump my friends. Male or female. Sure, if they were bad people... mean or spiteful, addicts, or generally bad news. Yea, I could see that. But just because they happen to be born with an outy instead of an inny? No, I don't get that. I have many female friends too... so it is not like I'm just a guy-friend magnet. I'm outgoing and enjoy having a wide-circle of friends... Ones I'm very happy to introduce to my SO... Men who assume I'm 'doing' all these guys (or girls) or think that everyone is an orbiter or attention whore. Well, I don't get that either. The world is a lot less lonely if you learn how to make and keep friends from many walks of life. We come in all packages, ya know. I call bs, no guy is going to be friends with you without wanting to **** you
irc333 Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 Didn't read all the responses here, but I do see a lot of good points made by the OP. Quite recently, I unfriended a woman who decided to stop responding to my emails on FB. She noticed this and took part in trying to shame me that "I'll end up alone if I'm not even open to female friends either." Which is quite an absurd assumption. She stated she has had male friends that had an attraction to her, but she had no mutual attraction. After that realization was said she "claims" that they still continue to be in touch or "friends" with her. Well, that's them I suppose. Not me. I have a friend of mine that attempts to kind of dilly dally asking women out, but he tells me is technique of asking women out is not in the form of a date, but invites her to have a fun time at some fun event with him. He claims it's worked for him, but I'm not sure about it, though the plus side to his technique, is he's invited to a lot of places that involve a large circle their OTHER female friends, but they love the fact he doesn't "hit on them" When I heard this, I was like "Huh??" Has someone been relegated to a male gay-like friend? The topic of women manipulating men, and it being unattractive. First of all, this isn't the kind of woman you don't to even bet with in the first place, if a woman is manipulating you, drop her. Of course, the theory the OP states, if you do drop her, she'll beg you to stick around maybe? Because you just attracted her by dumping her? Sounds like a lose-lose situation. I have noticed dating situations have turned into some kind of lose-lose or damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I find it interesting that I don't have any female friends. If there's a girl in my phone that I'm communicating with, it's because I'm pursuing her. At least in my mind that's how it is. There are a few I've slept with, who I've downgraded to "friends", and we remain in touch, but the fact remains, I'll still sleep with them if I decide to put in the effort. I talk to my guy friends. A few of them insist they have a female friend or two, but they also admit, they don't communicate regularly with them. Honestly, these are more like work acquaintances in my opinion. But the vast majority of men just tell it like it is: "I don't have any female friends." But now days, nearly every woman on the planet has male "friends". Married. Single. It really makes no difference. It only stands to reason, simple mathematical logic dictates, that if women have male friends but men don't have female friends, we men, with our limited social intuition aren't being told the entire, honest story about these male friends. When I was a kid growing up, my mom didn't have any male friends that she would communicate with regularly. I've interviewed, over the last week, since I stumbled upon this realization, dozens of men and women, who all tell me their moms didn't have any male friends either (this is all pre-cell phone era.) I've also asked a lot of women this question: "I've heard it said that if a woman is able to manipulate her man, she loses attraction for her man. Is that true?" While many will deny that they are manipulating, women ALL AGREE that if they can manipulate their man, it's unattractive. When we say manipulation, it means getting someone else to do something they'd rather not do. Or, possibly, allowing a behavior that previously wasn't allowed under an unspoken set of rules. If your girl is texting or communicating with a male friend, and if you allow it, if you bury your head in the sand under the pretext of "trust", instead of being man enough to confront the situation, she WILL LOSE attraction for you. Period. The thing is, once she feels enough power in the relationship to try this stunt, there is little that can be done. Number one, society now says it's permissible for women to have male "friends". (Don't get me started on how womankind has manipulated mankind on a societal level, but it's happened.) So, once your girl starts in with this behavior, what can you do about it without losing her attraction? You could "communicate" with her. Women always say we men are horrible communicators. Honestly, I see little difference between communicating and bitching and whining. If it comes across as whining, she will lose attraction for her "jealous" whiny boyfriend. If you try to control her by asking her to stop, society has already dictated that she has the right to have male friends, and she's doing nothing wrong. If you try to control her, you will be labeled "controlling". Again, she will lose attraction for her "controlling" boyfriend. If you blindly "trust" her this probably won't work either. If she senses that you aren't bothered in the slightest by her male "friend", in other words, you really do trust her, she's probably going to come to one of two conclusions: Either you simply don't care about her or she's going to think you are just a very naive person who doesn't "get it". The boyfriend who just doesn't care is unattractive. The guy who doesn't "get it" is also unattractive. If her behavior does bother you, but you aren't man enough to do something about it, oh trust and believe you WILL NOT be able to conceal your dislike of the situation from her. She WILL undoubtedly pick up on this. If this happens, she will lost attraction for you because she is manipulating you. You are allowing behavior that you don't like. You are not enforcing your boundaries. You are not behaving like an attractive man. So....guys, how do we handle this??? Any and all suggestions appreciated.
Author TheSingleGuy Posted March 10, 2012 Author Posted March 10, 2012 More responses from women than I was looking for, and from what I see, ALL defend their right have male friends. I figured that much, and as I pointed out, if you "communicate" that you are uncomfortable with her male friend, she will lose attraction for you. You will be insecure and jealous. Dasein has a good strategy. "Oh, I guess our exclusive arrangement was a bit premature". I guess you could start pursuing other women right in front of her and lie to her, telling her that "She's just a friend.". Of course, this is gonna cause drama, and lots of it. Aside from Dasein, guys, we don't really have any advice for one another, do we? I guess the only real option is to break up with her. But I agree with you, Dasein, you always let the woman be the first to push for exclusivity.
tigressA Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 I agree with the sentiment that being too tolerant of 'bad' behavior--whatever one considers to be bad behavior as that can be subjective--easily leads to loss of attraction. I'm testament to it. In nearly all my relationships, I was easily able to manipulate the guys I was with and I became incredibly bored with them as a result. One of my exes--even though the relationship was generally crap (he cheated and was emotionally abusive)--was memorable for the fact that he didn't put up with any s*it from me. That was incredibly attractive. As for male friends, I have two. One I've known for 10+ years. The other I've known for 2+ years. We don't live in the same area so we keep in touch online. If we could hang out regularly in person I would bring my SO (if applicable) or at least invite him.
Titania22 Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 I have guy friends online through gaming. I talk to them regularly. Some have girlfriends. It's completely innocent, no flirting or anything. I would hope that if they were asked if they had any female friends, they would count me. I certainly value their friendships. The men I know in real life that i would refer to as friends, are more like acquaintances. They are the men I know from my philosophy group, and the only time i see or talk to them is when I am at my philosophy group. I don't see why a man should be worried about me being friends with someone half my age on the other side of the world. I also wonder should such a man be worried when I come over to Southern California later this year to meet a bunch of you (some of whom are actually male).
Imported Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 If I were going to have sex with my male friends it would have happened years ago. If they want to have sex with me, it is their problem, not mine. Ain't gonna happen. Lol. But the fact is if they do they have some ulterior motive. Some a small amount want to be friends but most accept friendship as a means to an end. The thing is women choose to ignore that fact. They are not ignoring it. They feed off it. What is better than having one cock that appreciates them? You guessed it....a bunch of cocks....aka..."just a friend". She might not have sex with him (till one night when you argue with her and she goes running/crying to one of her other cocks and drinks a bit too much alcohol), but she probably gets off on knowing he wants her and will string him along. 1
RedRobin Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 I call bs, no guy is going to be friends with you without wanting to **** you You can call BS all day... I don't get that vibe from them at all. You mean, you've never met a girl who was really nice, fun to talk to, but for some bizarre reason, you just aren't physically attracted to them? Really? That's never happened? Because I call BS on THAT...
somedude81 Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 I agree with the sentiment that being too tolerant of 'bad' behavior--whatever one considers to be bad behavior as that can be subjective--easily leads to loss of attraction. I'm testament to it. In nearly all my relationships, I was easily able to manipulate the guys I was with and I became incredibly bored with them as a result. One of my exes--even though the relationship was generally crap (he cheated and was emotionally abusive)--was memorable for the fact that he didn't put up with any s*it from me. That was incredibly attractive. What a pleasure... You can call BS all day... I don't get that vibe from them at all. You mean, you've never met a girl who was really nice, fun to talk to, but for some bizarre reason, you just aren't physically attracted to them? Really? That's never happened? Because I call BS on THAT... Take a minute to think of your male friends and tell me that none of them would sleep with you given the chance.
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