Untouchable_Fire Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 UF, you and I tend to go 'round and 'round when we don't agree and I do have to do a bit of work in awhile, so I'll just say that I read what you wrote and while on some of it we agree, I don't think we'll find any additional common ground. Which is not to say I don't feel sympathy for people who are perpetually rejected, because I certainly do. It's funny because in reality we are not usually that far off in terms of agreement on topics... it's just we approach issues from such wildly different viewpoints that it creates disagreement.
xxoo Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Probably just bad luck, not a moral failing on anyone's part. The OP should be able to stay who he is and how he does things without being rejected. He can't though and them's the brakes. He's going to be upset about it of course (I would be too) but let's not pretend like anything can or should be done on his part. So you believe a person can not become more attractive to the sex, should not try, and shouldn't need to? I think most of us who ARE attractive to the opposite sex put some effort into it, and take into consideration what the other gender is attracted to. That doesn't mean changing who we are completely, but rather purposefully developing the parts of ourselves that ARE attractive to opposite sex. (speaking of attraction as an overall term--not just physical) 2
fortyninethousand322 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 So you believe a person can not become more attractive to the sex, should not try, and shouldn't need to? I think most of us who ARE attractive to the opposite sex put some effort into it, and take into consideration what the other gender is attracted to. That doesn't mean changing who we are completely, but rather purposefully developing the parts of ourselves that ARE attractive to opposite sex. (speaking of attraction as an overall term--not just physical) Sure, within reason. Maybe if you're completely out of shape and you start hitting the gym or you're completely flat broke and you get a better job or take care of your money better that could help. Or get a hobby or a better social life. But sometimes some people cannot change how attractive they are. Maybe they're not assertive enough, or too nervous around the opposite sex. At that point you can't really change it's really just a game of chance.
ThaWholigan Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Sure, within reason. Maybe if you're completely out of shape and you start hitting the gym or you're completely flat broke and you get a better job or take care of your money better that could help. Or get a hobby or a better social life. But sometimes some people cannot change how attractive they are. Maybe they're not assertive enough, or too nervous around the opposite sex. At that point you can't really change it's really just a game of chance. Yes you can. It's certainly possible, it may be harder for some than for others, but it's completely possible. They have assertiveness classes, even some dating coaches teach you how to be confident around women. Only you can create chances for yourself, chance happening to you is.......well, a mere chance. 1
dasein Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I'm just saying it's not abuse, and we shouldn't use that word. Perhaps I'm more sensitive because I work with abuse victims day in and day out, and I've seen REAL abuse. Rejection sucks, but it's not abuse. Amazing how a relatively innocuous topic, very obviously and plainly stated as a question inviting OPINIONS turns into a legalistic podium and bashing opportunity by the self-righteous usual suspects. 1. Of course a dating rejection in a vacuum, taken out of context, can not be defined as "abuse." More detail is needed. 2. But dating rejections don't take place in a vacuum. If someone is insulted, laughed at or scorned as part of the rejection, it could most certainly qualify as "abuse" under any common, non feminist orthodoxy (abuse only happens to women and children) definition of the term. If someone is subjected to rude rejections systematically over time, this is certainly, reasonably defined as a "pattern of abuse" regardless of circumstance, gender or age. 3. How they react to such a pattern is no different, not one iota, than how any other victim of abuse would react or would be reasonably expected to react. This would include forming attitudes and behaviors responsive to the abuse. 4. The orthodox "abuse of women and children by men" industry doesn't have a monopoly on the term "abuse," despite how fervently practitioners within that odious industry wish it did. Tough. To the topic, IME, the culture I experienced in the Phillipines, though over 20 years ago last, was more accepting of Americans and American culture than others I experienced. Other cultures, anglicized Chinese for example, had a "love/hate" relationship with Americans and American culture, openly ridiculing the U.S. while simultaneously fawning all over U.S. pop culture and fashion trends. I found the Phillipines less superficially judgmental of U.S. culture, more approachable, more laid back. This might partially explain compatibility between individuals in those cultures that could result in marriage. I also found the Phillipines more receptive to the various American brands of Christianity, and this also could explain how people meet and marry, as religious belief compatibility is important to many people. This of course, is just one person's experience. I didn't see anything in OP that invited such a legalistic, PEDANTIC bashing, merely asking for opinions on the topic based on OP's anecdotal experience. The question mark in the title of the thread kind of gave it away to those not in a rush to lecture or flaunt their "superior" travel experience and cultural knowledge. 1
PlumPrincess Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Sure, within reason. Maybe if you're completely out of shape and you start hitting the gym or you're completely flat broke and you get a better job or take care of your money better that could help. Or get a hobby or a better social life. But sometimes some people cannot change how attractive they are. Maybe they're not assertive enough, or too nervous around the opposite sex. At that point you can't really change it's really just a game of chance. When I suggested some changes to your profile you said you didn't have time for dating and that you wanted to concentrate on other things in your life. I do see you post all the time though that you're not successful with dating, that some people are just not lucky, etc. You either do something or you stop claiming that other people have it better than you. Verhrzn is hitting the gym and putting in effort to become more attractive (although her biggest obstacle is herself), but what are you and Somedude doing? - "I can't do this. I can't do that. No, that doesn't work. No, I don't have time. No, that's her fault. No, you absolutely must like me." What's wrong with you guys?
zengirl Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 It's funny because in reality we are not usually that far off in terms of agreement on topics... it's just we approach issues from such wildly different viewpoints that it creates disagreement. Oh, I do not think we always have wildly different views either, but the things we disagree on, we tend to disagree vehemently. I respect a variety of perspectives, but you and definitely have different worldviews in many respects. No worries on that front. The whole reason I wrote that note was to let you know I'd read your ideas, rather than just ignored them. Sometimes I just don't feel like arguing any further.
zengirl Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 4. The orthodox "abuse of women and children by men" industry doesn't have a monopoly on the term "abuse," despite how fervently practitioners within that odious industry wish it did. Tough. While the people I work with are children, yes (that's because I only work with kids), I do not think abuse is only of women and children. FWIW, they are technically children, but I see tons of teenage boys come through our groups---that's actually the most 'at risk' group in this area. Many of the examples of true trauma and abuse I gave were not particularly feminine. 1
dasein Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 While the people I work with are children, yes (that's because I only work with kids), I do not think abuse is only of women and children. FWIW, they are technically children, but I see tons of teenage boys come through our groups---that's actually the most 'at risk' group in this area. Many of the examples of true trauma and abuse I gave were not particularly feminine. That was just a general dig on the feminist "abuse" industry, no idea to what extent you work in that pseudoindustry, and my dig was incited by the subtext of your unnecessary pedantics over the definition of "abuse." What would be the harm of stopping the analysis with "yes rejection sucks and can have long term effects on those subject to it," instead of making an obvious attempt to marginalize any issue that men suffer more than women ("Oooo -they- are trying to take one of -our- words! Nonono!"), via definitional pedantics or otherwise? And fwiw, my comments about "bashing" were not addressed at you but other posters. Meant to add that to the earlier post.
zengirl Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 That was just a general dig on the feminist "abuse" industry, no idea to what extent you work in that pseudoindustry, and my dig was incited by the subtext of your unnecessary pedantics over the definition of "abuse." What would be the harm of stopping the analysis with "yes rejection sucks and can have long term effects on those subject to it," instead of making an obvious attempt to marginalize any issue that men suffer more than women ("Oooo -they- are trying to take one of -our- words! Nonono!"), via definitional pedantics or otherwise? And fwiw, my comments about "bashing" were not addressed at you but other posters. Meant to add that to the earlier post. Not trying to marginalize the issue at all---trying to put it in its proper perspective, but I believe correlating the issue to abuse attempts to marginalize abuse. Abuse is a word that should not be thrown about lightly IMO. I never thought of that as a gender issue, just an abuse awareness issue. 1
setsenia Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Something I'm noticing latlely, that if you want a SURE thing, esp if you're a not so attractive man, is you're more than likely to get a Filipina woman to date you than any other type of woman. Again, just something I'm noticing lately, AND.....they don't seem to mind the age differences they seek in a man either. Sounds about right. That's for this reason my dad has been dating a lot of Filipina women. They are looking for an older man and he was saying it's totally okay in their culture to date someone old enough to be your father. My husband is half Filipino, born here. His grandparents were 20 years apart, (grandmother was 19 and grandfather 41) when they started a family. His mom was the youngest, 15 years younger than the first. Meaning his grandfather was 55 or 56 when she was born. However, it also seems that some Filipino men are very dominant and are somewhat abusive towards the wives and children. This was my husband's family's case and my dad has dated women with the same situation.
fortyninethousand322 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 When I suggested some changes to your profile you said you didn't have time for dating and that you wanted to concentrate on other things in your life. I do see you post all the time though that you're not successful with dating, that some people are just not lucky, etc. You either do something or you stop claiming that other people have it better than you. Verhrzn is hitting the gym and putting in effort to become more attractive (although her biggest obstacle is herself), but what are you and Somedude doing? - "I can't do this. I can't do that. No, that doesn't work. No, I don't have time. No, that's her fault. No, you absolutely must like me." What's wrong with you guys? Gee I wonder what those things were? Maybe getting a job, and my own place. All the "nice" photos (the only improvement you told me to make on my profile) in the world aren't going to suddenly make me have employment and help me move out of my parents place. Those things are probably more important than dating was at the time. Beyond that online dating has been but a small part of what I've tried over the years. I only had an OLD account since May 2010, what do you make of my lack of success in the previous years? Surely it couldn't have been my photos. I knew sooner or later you'd show up somewhere and haunt me.
taiko Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Divorce is a big no-no in the Phillipines, even if married outside their country, very few Fillipina's will divorce. It is more then a big thing the laws of the Philippines are what Catholic Bishops in the rest of the world dream of, no divorce or abortion and the President ended capitol punishment in an attempt to lure another Papal visit. They can not divorce unless they married a Muslim man under Sharia Law. And that is only the law because the 5% the population that is Muslim is willing to fight over it and the other 15% of nominally non Catholics are not willing to fight. Again, just something I'm noticing lately, AND.....they don't seem to mind the age differences they seek in a man either. I don't mean to stereotype, but have seen this A LOT lately. My friend, who is probably in his late 40's, recently married a 30 year old Filipina, now in this case, he actually knew her through missionary work, she was stateside on a Visa and they met through their church. After she had went back home, they had been corresponding via email, and he had done some mission work in her country as well. During this time, he did date women locally, but none which seemed to keep his interest. He proposed marriage to her, I suppose via cyberspace, and she flew in. He's known her for a while because they've already worked together personally. But some of his friends were taken aback by his sudden status change to "engaged" and the woman they didn't even recognize through their own local social circles. I saw a picture of them together, he's a nice guy, but indeed overweight and..well...obviously much older than her. She actually gave up having kids with him (because she was wanting children), just to be married to him. They had brief split because of this, but he said since he's already divorced, and has 2 kids in Middle school.....he has no desire at his age to bear more children. She changed her mind and went with his wishes. Anyhow, one day, I'm seeing his FB posts and pictures of his lovely wife and another Filipina friend of hers...also very attractive, early 30's. I asked my married friend about her.....and he said, "Sorry, man, she's married, lol" I clicked on the link of the woman, and it shows a picture of her and this guy, probably old enough to be my own father, snuggling up with him. Hair completely greyed, and probably of a Baby Boomer age. Now are these just green card marriages (some might indeed agree here) or is this culture the least superficial culture? 30 is a hard age to say. She is already considered a matandang dalaga, an "old maid". Is it any wonder if a man is willing to go half way around the world for her when local men see something wrong with her that she will jump at the chance of marriage. I guess I should post here... I'm a Filipino guy, born and raised in the Philippines and now residing in California. I spent 2/3 of my life there and the other third stateside. I'm 30 if it matters. First of all, Filipino culture is one of the most superficial cultures in the world. If you happen to visit the country (or most countries in Asia), TV is inundated with ads to make you lose weight, plastic surgery, things that will make you more attractive, etc. What you see as average weight is actually fat in Asia. We have to look at the culture and see what makes it this way. Like any country that is dominated by Caucasian population, the exotics have a pull on the men. Like most (correct me if I'm wrong here) white men/women find exotics more intriguing/attractive, the same thing applies to Asians. Filipinos are brown skinned with doe eyes, darker skin and it's the norm and what you see everyday. You are seen as "less attractive" if you fall within the majority. If you are lighter skinned, not flat nosed, have chinky eyes (or other colored eyes), you already have an advantage eventhough you're not very attractive or overweight. You don't have to be rich or well off to be with a very attractive Filipina, you just have to have the looks and of course both of you should get along together pretty good. Like what everyone mentioned above, there is also the argument for the poverty. Like anyone who's poor, you want a better life for yourself, immediate family, and future family. A sure way out of that is getting to a "Western" country and making a living. This is easier said than done and the easiest way is to get hitched. The harder way is to get an education, get experience, then apply for work overseas. On a side note, this may be biased but Filipinos are very friendly if not the friendliest culture in the world. We would offer you the food on our plate even if it means us not having anything. The non-Filipino individuals that are dating Filipinos are finding that out. I'm talking about those people who are raised in the traditional culture. So there it is. Lest superficial? Definitely no. Are looks a priority? Most likely. Culture trumps superficiality? Definitely. You forgot the advertising which claims that everything which touches your body from hairspray to foot powder whitens the skin, but that is all over Asia. That outsiders for the most part find the local ugly ducklings as the most attractive is an additional lure. Because of Spanish and the US, but not the Japanese occupations, among Asian nationals Filipinos merge with westerners the easiest. I do believe more people speak English as a second language then speak Tagalog. The religions are nearly identical with just a difference in the proportion of Catholic to Protestants. Among the "yellow fever" suffering men a Filipina may be easier to attract then a local Asian American. Even without international marriages 10% of the adult population has gone overseas to work. Another large percentage have left their home provinces to work in manila and the other cities.
UBFeelinMe Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 As someone that comes from a Filipino family, I feel the need to respond to this thread. There seems to be a great deal of generalizations about Filipino Culture, some of which is true, but only to a certain degree. The first thing that must be understood is that like all societies, Filipinos have a culture that is quite diverse and takes influence from a multitude of places. Some users here have pointed to the displays of superficiality in the Filipino media and pop culture, such as ads to "beautify" oneself with skin whitening and other "enhancements", as proof positive of a culture that is inherently superficial. However, there is a simple reason why this apparent superficiality is ever present in the Filipino media that supposedly represents the culture of the Philippines. That reason being the history of cultural colonialism that has dominated the last 500 or so years of Filipino history. It began with the Spanish who, after converting the natives to Catholicism, introduced Europeanized images of the saints as figures of divine beauty. This continued during the period of being colonized by the U.S. as the supposedly superior tall, white American became the new role model for the Filipino to admire. This colonial mentality is what manifests itself in the apparent displays of superficiality that we see today. To put it bluntly, the Filipino people have been trained for centuries by exploitative and manipulative white cultures to hate their own image. It is a fact that prior to the colonization of the Philippines, there existed a greater sense of pride and dignity among the indigenous population, but unfortunately the memories of the true culture have been erased over the course of history. But that doesn't really paint an accurate picture of the average Filipino living today, particularly in the U.S. While in my family, particularly among the older generation, there exists this excessive admiration for the European model of beauty, we really are no different than any other culture. We date who we find attractive just like anyone else, we seek meaningful relationships, we marry, we divorce, sometimes we are superficial like anyone else, mostly we just want to find connection like anyone else. To the OP and the others in this thread that seem to know oh-so-much about the filipino experience and the culture of Filipinos in the Philippines and in the U.S., I sincerely hope you actually interact and learn first hand about the lives of actual Filipinos from all walks of life before passing a generalized judgment over an extremely large group of people. When you all actually do that, you will realize that we are no different than any other human being. 3
Els Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Frankly, I saw the most superficiality in Asia. Asian countries (rich or poor) are very superficial, especially with the way a woman looks. Lived in Asia most of my life - very true. Women are judged by terrible standards appearance-wise, and men income-wise. You think SAHDs have it hard in Western cultures? You'd never even BE an SAHD in most Asian countries, your in laws would probably do all they can to prevent the girl from marrying you, your kid will grow up the butt of other kids' jokes, and everyone, man and woman alike, would look down on you. Same goes if you're a man and unemployed or a student at anything past 25. Or a woman and anything above 110 lbs. 2
OptimisticChiq Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) I don't know if this is true for in the Fillipina culture, but consider that sometimes a woman you view as young and attractive marries an older American man because she is not considered young and/or attractive enough to find a desirable man (ie: good provider) in her own country. Hi I'm Filipina, living in the Philippines, and I can attest to this. I've seen this everywhere. Young Filipinas opt for older Caucasian men because the Caucasians like them more than Filipinos here.. AND because they don't think Filipinos are that great-looking, or could provide for them (and in some cases, their kids). On the other hand, lot of Filipino males would rather be with girls who don't fit the average Filipina look - girls who look, or are part-Caucasian or part-East Asian (Japanese, Chinese). But of course there are Filipino males still who go for the "average Filipinas" or 'morenas' in the vernacular.. To be honest, our culture is very superficial. We have whitening creams on every supermarket and convenience store shelf just so those 'average Filipinas' would look more fair-skinned and pique the interest of their choice Filipino males. I do love our courtship culture though, but that's a different topic altogether. Edited April 19, 2012 by OptimisticChiq 1
OptimisticChiq Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 30 is a hard age to say. She is already considered a matandang dalaga, an "old maid". Is it any wonder if a man is willing to go half way around the world for her when local men see something wrong with her that she will jump at the chance of marriage. No, no, no.. I refuse to believe this (because I'm nearing it)!!!! "30 is not a matandang dalaga" age! Our culture is changing.. uhm, 35 is! 1
udolipixie Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) What you described there isn't a less or least superficial culture to me as I'm guessing the women are still judged greatly and heavily their youth/beauty. That's just showing that a less or least superficial culture towards men in regards to looks. Always amusing how when men talk about least or lesser superficial cultures it's still about getting attractive usually more attractive than himself gals. Edited April 19, 2012 by udolipixie
Els Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 Hi I'm Filipina, living in the Philippines, and I can attest to this. I've seen this everywhere. Young Filipinas opt for older Caucasian men because the Caucasians like them more than Filipinos here.. AND because they don't think Filipinos are that great-looking, or could provide for them (and in some cases, their kids). On the other hand, lot of Filipino males would rather be with girls who don't fit the average Filipina look - girls who look, or are part-Caucasian or part-East Asian (Japanese, Chinese). But of course there are Filipino males still who go for the "average Filipinas" or 'morenas' in the vernacular.. To be honest, our culture is very superficial. We have whitening creams on every supermarket and convenience store shelf just so those 'average Filipinas' would look more fair-skinned and pique the interest of their choice Filipino males. I do love our courtship culture though, but that's a different topic altogether. I totally agree. Everything you said. When I first moved to a Western country, it cracked me up to see tanning spray on the shelves instead of whitening cream, I swear. And Caucasian-looking or semi-Caucasian-looking people are definitely prized there. I also enjoy the Asian courtship culture. It sadly seems to be something that many countries have left behind, in pursuit of an 'instant' culture.
zengirl Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 I totally agree. Everything you said. When I first moved to a Western country, it cracked me up to see tanning spray on the shelves instead of whitening cream, I swear. And Caucasian-looking or semi-Caucasian-looking people are definitely prized there. When I was an expat in Asia, I found it interesting to see all the white people baffled by whitening cream. (I'd heard of it before, being halfsies.) And all the expats looking for tanning salons! Korean people are especially aghast at the idea of tanning salons. In Japan, they're actually gaining some steam though, not much of course. I grew up in Miami beach, and tanning still seems weird to me. So does whitening. Anyway, I enjoyed the parallel. It seems like a lot of Western people really can't see it and that cracks me up -- they don't realize tanning creams are essentially the same thing.
taiko Posted April 19, 2012 Posted April 19, 2012 No, no, no.. I refuse to believe this (because I'm nearing it)!!!! "30 is not a matandang dalaga" age! Our culture is changing.. uhm, 35 is! I understand I am a generation older. Look at it this way if you wait until 35 with the biological clock ticking you won't have enough kids for averages to ensure there is an ate to take care of the younger kids and a baby girl to take care of you as a senior. With fewer kids the one girl may be caught in the classic sandwich. Spending her early adulthood making sure the youngsters get educated and then middle age taking care of mama.
Author irc333 Posted April 20, 2012 Author Posted April 20, 2012 Always amusing how when men talk about least or lesser superficial cultures it's still about getting attractive usually more attractive than himself gals. You probably on the nose there...lol...but, Asian women seem to attract men by their physical beauty anyways, in general. And they actually won't turn down a date from an average Joe.
yongyong Posted April 20, 2012 Posted April 20, 2012 Your thread sounds very stupid to the maximum. I feel really bad for you if you are one of those American guys (white) who can't get American wife (people you grew up with) and have to go overse as to pickup a wife. In some other countries, women just get kicked out of the house if they get a divorce. In here, you know that's not the case. So just don't marry them and treat them like a toy. (nothing wrong treating them this way if they are after certain things)
Author irc333 Posted April 20, 2012 Author Posted April 20, 2012 Your thread sounds very stupid to the maximum. I feel really bad for you if you are one of those American guys (white) who can't get American wife (people you grew up with) and have to go overse as to pickup a wife. In some other countries, women just get kicked out of the house if they get a divorce. In here, you know that's not the case. So just don't marry them and treat them like a toy. (nothing wrong treating them this way if they are after certain things) Why go overseas, when there's a lot of them hereon H1-B Work Visas? ;-) Alot of them in the medical field working through an agency at local hospitals and Drs Offices.
Els Posted April 20, 2012 Posted April 20, 2012 Why go overseas, when there's a lot of them hereon H1-B Work Visas? ;-) Alot of them in the medical field working through an agency at local hospitals and Drs Offices. Usually people in the medical field don't need to get the green card off a white guy. So, tough luck for you.
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