Untouchable_Fire Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 The idea that there's some 'perfect' culture is absurd. The U.S. does have the benefit of MANY cultural elements mixing as one (and the downside of that, which is turbulence; the upside is growth). I think U.S. culture is pretty damn good, comparative to many, though I love many other cultures too. I'm more free here, socially, than I would be in many other countries. I can't even count the number of countries I've lived in where gay people supposedly don't exist. Yes, other countries also do better than us on that---and go them---but I think totally vilifying any culture is hard to do. America is a mixing pot of cultures... I will give you that for sure. I'm speaking specifically to mainstream L.A., NYC media controlled... MTV style U.S. culture. People in rural Georgia are awesome.
fortyninethousand322 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Huh? By this definition all dating is abuse. Because we select some partners, and not others. Thus, excluding people de facto. This makes no sense, UF. Some people get excluded way more than others though. The OP of this thread is a prime example.
Untouchable_Fire Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 No, it's not. You clearly don't understand the definition of the word, so I don't know what else to say. Everything that can potentially make us unhappy does not correlate to abuse. Not at all. Post the definition. Huh? By this definition all dating is abuse. Because we select some partners, and not others. Thus, excluding people de facto. This makes no sense, UF. Huh? I am talking about complete exclusion. Not occasional rejection.
xxoo Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Some people get excluded way more than others though. The OP of this thread is a prime example. It isn't because we all got together as a group and cruelly decided to exclude him. If individual women universally don't want to date him, there is probably a reason. Something is wrong. 2
zengirl Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 "Immense" is your word, not mine. You suggested that people could not understand the pain, that the pain justified bitterness and actions of bitterness, and said my comparison was poor in saying it was not akin to things like being forced to be a childhood soldier or physically tortured or molested as a child. That, to me, suggests you think the pain is abnormally immense, as the pain of all those things is generally accepted to be abnormally immense by MOST people. I never suggested there was NO pain. I simply said it was not outside the range of the normal human experience, though it may differ in terms of the "reason" for the pain. For reference here are the first two posts of mine in this thread. Nothing about pain (immense or otherwise in them). I referred to it as "bad luck". Which I still believe that's what it is. Usually when I say this, certain posters (not you but other infamous ones) bash me on it and say "it's all the OP's fault blah blah blah". That's true. I assumed you meant pain, because if you simply mean "bad luck" makes people *******s, then I think that's even LESS valid. And the OP (and anyone else's) actions are not bad luck. Bad luck cannot make you misbehave. America is a mixing pot of cultures... I will give you that for sure. I'm speaking specifically to mainstream L.A., NYC media controlled... MTV style U.S. culture. People in rural Georgia are awesome. There are millions of cultural data points between those two. And, frankly, ALL mainstream media type stuff sucks, in almost every country. That's just the nature of mainstream media.
Untouchable_Fire Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 It isn't because we all got together as a group and cruelly decided to exclude him. If individual women universally don't want to date him, there is probably a reason. Something is wrong. Perhaps that reason is that his positive traits are not valued by women in that particular culture.
ThaWholigan Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Perhaps that reason is that his positive traits are not valued by women in that particular culture. Or perhaps because he does not know how to make himself attractive. Or that his social skills aren't quite as adequate. Or because he has allowed his rejections to damage his confidence. A lot of the time, it isn't actually women's fault.
zengirl Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Post the definition. I did, but I will again (a more complete one): From Wikipedia: Abuse is the improper usage or treatment for a bad purpose, often to unfairly or improperly gain benefit. Abuse can come in many forms, such as: physical or verbal maltreatment, injury, sexual assault, violation, rape, unjust practices; wrongful practice or custom; offense; crime, or otherwise verbal aggression.[1] From the Oxford dictionary: Note, that if you're looking for abuse as used in "emotional abuse," it's #2 -- emotional abuse is systematic. abuse NOUN əˈbjuːs əˈbjuːs 1 [uncountable, singular] the use of something in a way that is wrong or harmful SYNONYM misuse alcohol/drug/solvent abuse The system of paying cash bonuses is open to abuse (= might be used in the wrong way). abuse of something He was arrested on charges of corruption and abuse of power. What she did was an abuse of her position as manager. 2 [uncountable, plural] unfair, cruel or violent treatment of somebody child abuse sexual abuse reported abuses by the secret police She suffered years of physical abuse. 3 [uncountable] rude and offensive remarks, usually made when somebody is very angry SYNONYM insults to scream/hurl/shout abuse a stream/torrent of abuse The man burst into a torrent of foul-mouthed racist abuse. Emotional abuse is defined in the medical dictionary as emotional abuse [imō′shənəl] the debasement of a person's feelings that causes the individual to perceive himself or herself as inept, not cared for, and worthless. Though it's primarily a pediatric medical definition. 1
Untouchable_Fire Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 There are millions of cultural data points between those two. And, frankly, ALL mainstream media type stuff sucks, in almost every country. That's just the nature of mainstream media. Mainstream media affects how we view the world and even who we choose to marry. Media bias even accounts for up to 5-10% swings in our elections. Since it's inception in 1950 it has slowly been homogenizing our culture. It pretty much is designed by spoiled brats... and that is our future.
fortyninethousand322 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 You suggested that people could not understand the pain, that the pain justified bitterness and actions of bitterness, and said my comparison was poor in saying it was not akin to things like being forced to be a childhood soldier or physically tortured or molested as a child. That, to me, suggests you think the pain is abnormally immense, as the pain of all those things is generally accepted to be abnormally immense by MOST people. I know only that I don't know. What I do know is that I often lay awake at night or sit and think of how many chances I might have missed with certain women because I didn't act confidently enough or I didn't say the right thing or any number of things. It is constant and pervades though whatever it is I'm doing. I often have dreams (perhaps I should refer to them as nightmares) where I'm with some girl I wanted to date years ago and somehow can't seal the deal or I do but then wake up to the reality of life. I can't speak for the OP or anyone else for that matter, but that's what being perpetually single and dateless feels like to me. Since I've never experience any type of psychological trauma I can't compare that to anything else. I never suggested there was NO pain. I simply said it was not outside the range of the normal human experience, though it may differ in terms of the "reason" for the pain. How many people do you know like OP? How many people do you know who can't even manage to get a date? How "normal" are his issues? That's true. I assumed you meant pain, because if you simply mean "bad luck" makes people *******s, then I think that's even LESS valid. Well it can be painful to be constantly rejected yes. But I don't feel like it's anyone's fault he's being rejected so often. It is just bad luck. I don't even think he's acting all that poorly though. And the OP (and anyone else's) actions are not bad luck. Bad luck cannot make you misbehave. What actions? What "misbehavior"? All he's doing is posting threads with questions and bizarre assertions. He's not cheating on anyone or abusing anybody.
fortyninethousand322 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 It isn't because we all got together as a group and cruelly decided to exclude him. If individual women universally don't want to date him, there is probably a reason. Something is wrong. Probably just bad luck, not a moral failing on anyone's part. The OP should be able to stay who he is and how he does things without being rejected. He can't though and them's the brakes. He's going to be upset about it of course (I would be too) but let's not pretend like anything can or should be done on his part. The more paranoid side of me might actually think that women do have a secret club (maybe a back side room at Goldman Sachs) where they collectively decide which men are black listed .
Untouchable_Fire Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I did, but I will again (a more complete one): From Wikipedia: From the Oxford dictionary: Note, that if you're looking for abuse as used in "emotional abuse," it's #2 -- emotional abuse is systematic. Emotional abuse is defined in the medical dictionary as Though it's primarily a pediatric medical definition. Thanks for posting that. I can see why you don't think it fits. Please consider this part " the debasement of a person's feelings that causes the individual to perceive himself or herself as inept, not cared for, and worthless." It may not be an exact match... but don't you think that is how these guys are feeling? Isn't that exactly how attempting to date makes them feel? I agree that a good chunk of this is self inflicted. I'm not entirely sure I believe ALL women reject these guys... most likely just the ones they focus on do. However, I do believe that this is how they feel about it.
zengirl Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I know only that I don't know. What I do know is that I often lay awake at night or sit and think of how many chances I might have missed with certain women because I didn't act confidently enough or I didn't say the right thing or any number of things. It is constant and pervades though whatever it is I'm doing. I often have dreams (perhaps I should refer to them as nightmares) where I'm with some girl I wanted to date years ago and somehow can't seal the deal or I do but then wake up to the reality of life. I can't speak for the OP or anyone else for that matter, but that's what being perpetually single and dateless feels like to me. I suggest you seek counseling. I'm not trying to say, "Buck up, it's not really bad" so much as it doesn't get you out of being responsible for your attitudes, thoughts, words, and actions. I don't think many types of trauma do, though a few are understood, legally and medically, to do so in specific cases, and I can certainly be understanding of that. I listed a few extreme cases in one of my posts to make that clear. I do not even necessarily think that what you describe ALL comes from your experiences (everyone has different psychological reactions) but rather to me suggests you have some anxiety, in general, which is probably as much/more so at the root of your issues in dating as a product of it. Anxiety is a life-killer. I totally get that. However, it never gives you the right to be an *******, which is the main point I've been saying. Everyone has something to be bitter about. That's my secondary point. What actions? What "misbehavior"? All he's doing is posting threads with questions and bizarre assertions. He's not cheating on anyone or abusing anybody. I'm speaking specifically to the worldview presented in various posts -- you opened the subject up to a wider range than the OP (I've seen a few of his posts; they seem mildly trollish and sexist, but I wouldn't suggest he's some sort of criminal or anything). And to being bitter---being bitter is in bad form, and it generally leads to bad results. That's just life. Being bitter IS misbehavior, IMO. 1
verhrzn Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Probably just bad luck, not a moral failing on anyone's part. The OP should be able to stay who he is and how he does things without being rejected. He can't though and them's the brakes. He's going to be upset about it of course (I would be too) but let's not pretend like anything can or should be done on his part. The more paranoid side of me might actually think that women do have a secret club (maybe a back side room at Goldman Sachs) where they collectively decide which men are black listed . Do men then have the same thing? Because there are plenty of women out there who have been rejected as well. Why confine all of your empathy for just the men who have been ignored, and not the women as well?
zengirl Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Thanks for posting that. I can see why you don't think it fits. Please consider this part " the debasement of a person's feelings that causes the individual to perceive himself or herself as inept, not cared for, and worthless." It may not be an exact match... but don't you think that is how these guys are feeling? Isn't that exactly how attempting to date makes them feel? I agree that a good chunk of this is self inflicted. I'm not entirely sure I believe ALL women reject these guys... most likely just the ones they focus on do. However, I do believe that this is how they feel about it. I'm just saying it's not abuse, and we shouldn't use that word. Perhaps I'm more sensitive because I work with abuse victims day in and day out, and I've seen REAL abuse. Rejection sucks, but it's not abuse. If dating makes them feel that way, it's because they TELL it to. There is no abuser, except their own psyches. It may drive them to self-abuse, as I said, but that doesn't make anyone who doesn't want to date them at fault. I'm not saying that it wouldn't suck. I'm saying 3 major things (1) Most people experience things that suck, (2) Despite that, it's no excuse for being an ******* or spewing bitterness, and (3) It's not abuse.
fortyninethousand322 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Do men then have the same thing? Because there are plenty of women out there who have been rejected as well. Why confine all of your empathy for just the men who have been ignored, and not the women as well? Sure it's possible. I've never been on the sex war bandwagon (that's more SD's territory). All I've ever said is that the average man and the average woman have it better than I and similar people (be they male or female) do. You certainly fit the category I'm talking about though, so welcome to our little club (it's not exactly a club you want to be in though).
verhrzn Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Sure it's possible. I've never been on the sex war bandwagon (that's more SD's territory). All I've ever said is that the average man and the average woman have it better than I and similar people (be they male or female) do. You certainly fit the category I'm talking about though, so welcome to our little club (it's not exactly a club you want to be in though). Meh, at least it's belonging somewhere. The hardest part for me to accept is not so much the constant rejection of the opposite sex (hurtful but manageable), but the rejection of me by society. I'm not "normal." I'll never be part of a couple, or have a family. All of my vacations will be alone (or with other single people, or friends I rope away from their families), and I'll have to depend largely on myself for all the things in life you'd usually relay on a partner for. If I outlive my friends, I'll die without anyone to remember me by. It's that bleakness of life that I think the Normals miss. But I'd rather be aware of it now, then hopping around my life thinking I'll get something I never will. With that said, while the OP annoys me with his hypocritical opinions, if he can get what he wants (a hot young thing) with her consenting, then huzzah for him.
fortyninethousand322 Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I suggest you seek counseling. I'm not trying to say, "Buck up, it's not really bad" so much as it doesn't get you out of being responsible for your attitudes, thoughts, words, and actions. I don't think many types of trauma do, though a few are understood, legally and medically, to do so in specific cases, and I can certainly be understanding of that. I listed a few extreme cases in one of my posts to make that clear. I do not even necessarily think that what you describe ALL comes from your experiences (everyone has different psychological reactions) but rather to me suggests you have some anxiety, in general, which is probably as much/more so at the root of your issues in dating as a product of it. Hmm. Well I guess I can look into it. I don't want to be pumped full of drugs though so it would have to be one that doesn't think the pharmacy is the answer to every life problem. Everyone has something to be bitter about. That's my secondary point. I agree completely. The thing is though I don't think less of those who give into their bitter feelings.
aj22one Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 ^My goodness this is sad, mildly depressing. You two are like my age and already moping about? Why don't you two get together and be miserable together?
Nightsky Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I've seen the scenario you describe with Phillipine women to. Basicly an old retired army guy or something like that has a young hot fresh off the boat Filipino wife. That doesn't make their culture least superficial. It just means you can get a mail order bride there. So are you saying "mail order brides" the least superficial? Fortyninethousand PM if you want I'd be glad to try and knock some sense into you.
ThaWholigan Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 Hmm. Well I guess I can look into it. I don't want to be pumped full of drugs though so it would have to be one that doesn't think the pharmacy is the answer to every life problem. I agree completely. The thing is though I don't think less of those who give into their bitter feelings. I've looked into counseling too, I've long thought about it. My mother keeps dissuading me, says I need to talk to her instead lol. I'll be OK though, I'm confident in my own ability to improve on many things.
Untouchable_Fire Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 I'm just saying it's not abuse, and we shouldn't use that word. Perhaps I'm more sensitive because I work with abuse victims day in and day out, and I've seen REAL abuse. Rejection sucks, but it's not abuse. If dating makes them feel that way, it's because they TELL it to. There is no abuser, except their own psyches. It may drive them to self-abuse, as I said, but that doesn't make anyone who doesn't want to date them at fault. I'm not saying that it wouldn't suck. I'm saying 3 major things (1) Most people experience things that suck, (2) Despite that, it's no excuse for being an ******* or spewing bitterness, and (3) It's not abuse. I don't work with abuse victims, so I don't have the same visceral response to the word that you might. I don't blame these guys... or even Verhrzn for their problems. That type of thinking is part of the problem. It's similar to blaming rape victims for dressing too sexy. This is an exaggeration of course, but I need you to really step out of your comfort zone and consider the damage these people have suffered. I agree that most people experience things that suck, and experiencing suckiness isn't a free pass to be a terrible person. Even physical abuse victims don't get a free pass on this in my opinion. However, I do think it qualifies as some level of emotional abuse.
Untouchable_Fire Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 That's precisely why I find these kinds of threads difficult. We have no choice but to rely on our own culturally-informed assumptions and generally end up discussing stereotypes. All that, when, in the end, it's the OP who refuses to change his world-view of "how women should be" or to work on himself so that he actually gets to enjoy dating. Upon further reflection... I think Kamille is right here. I don't think we are even qualified to be working through this topic. I will say that in my opinion marriage just for a green card is not common. They are predominantly catholic and tend to hold marriage in much higher regard than we do as Americans.
zengirl Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) UF, you and I tend to go 'round and 'round when we don't agree and I do have to do a bit of work in awhile, so I'll just say that I read what you wrote and while on some of it we agree, I don't think we'll find any additional common ground. Which is not to say I don't feel sympathy for people who are perpetually rejected, because I certainly do. Hmm. Well I guess I can look into it. I don't want to be pumped full of drugs though so it would have to be one that doesn't think the pharmacy is the answer to every life problem. FWIW, most anxiety can be treated without pills, and there are many counselors and other support systems to treat it without medicine. I treat mine with Zen (study, meditation, yoga, etc). While I may not have the same content to my thoughts (or the same dating experiences, etc), the general tone of your description very much fits what I go through when suffering from anxiety, which was what made me say very strongly, "That's anxiety." I agree completely. The thing is though I don't think less of those who give into their bitter feelings. I do. Someone who is choosing to be more miserable AND spread more misery into the world is making the wrong choice. Edited March 7, 2012 by zengirl 1
FitChick Posted March 7, 2012 Posted March 7, 2012 The hardest part for me to accept is not so much the constant rejection of the opposite sex (hurtful but manageable), but the rejection of me by society. I'm not "normal." I'll never be part of a couple, or have a family. All of my vacations will be alone (or with other single people, or friends I rope away from their families), and I'll have to depend largely on myself for all the things in life you'd usually relay on a partner for. If I outlive my friends, I'll die without anyone to remember me by. Take your next vacation to one of these countries and you will have men fighting to be with you.
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