Men who enjoy a womens company for years, without her being the " one"

[RedRobin]

I will note that as men grow older and more experienced, and learn to attract women and extract sex reliably, the need for such tactics disappears and these men become what women call "well-adjusted" and "mature."

 

Hmmm... not sure that the term 'extract sex reliably' goes hand in hand with the thinking of a well-adjusted and mature man.

 

Also, there is that saying... character is what you do when noone is watching... and do unto others as you would have done to you... Also the mark of a well-adjusted and mature person.

[lospantalonsfancie]

It is clear as day, that it is a women's job to provide sex to their Male human counterparts, as much as possible, so strengthen the human race, by making Males strong and satisfied.

 

I know this was a joke, but I want to point out that its not clear that males become strong and satisfied if given more sex. The scarcity of sex, and the fact that women tend to reserve it for men who are "successful" or "powerful", does much to motivate men. Why do men build bridges, go to the moon, split atoms? While not the only motivation, access to sex is an integral part of what motivates men to improve their world.

[lospantalonsfancie]

Hmmm... not sure that the term 'extract sex reliably' goes hand in hand with the thinking of a well-adjusted and mature man.

 

Also, there is that saying... character is what you do when noone is watching... and do unto others as you would have done to you... Also the mark of a well-adjusted and mature person.

 

I agree that "extract" is poor choice of terminology. All I'm saying is that men, as they grow older and more attractive and established, often become able to get consentual sex when they want it, honestly and without deception, from willing women.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I agree that "extract" is poor choice of terminology. All I'm saying is that men, as they grow older and more attractive and established, often become able to get consentual sex when they want it, honestly and without deception, from willing women.

 

How old are you? How is your sex extraction going?

 

My main problem with the way you are presenting your points is that it comes from a wrong place.

 

Really, men and women want and need sex. Maybe one gender more urgently. Still, sex between 2 people (as opposed to masturbation) takes two people who BOTH want to do it. It's not really about someone getting it when they want it. And there are millions upon millions of men of all ages who are NOT getting consensual sex "when the want it." Just like there are people who aren't getting lots of things they want and / or need.

[joystickd]

Extract sex sounds like some crazy sci fi term for abducting some woman bringing her to your spaceship and giving her a vaginal probe. Then beaming her back to her location with no memory of the ordeal. To us normal people it kind of sounds creepy.

[lospantalonsfancie]

How old are you? How is your sex extraction going?

 

My main problem with the way you are presenting your points is that it comes from a wrong place.

 

Really, men and women want and need sex. Maybe one gender more urgently. Still, sex between 2 people (as opposed to masturbation) takes two people who BOTH want to do it. It's not really about someone getting it when they want it. And there are millions upon millions of men of all ages who are NOT getting consensual sex "when the want it." Just like there are people who aren't getting lots of things they want and / or need.

 

No need to personalize it. We are having a debate of issues, not people. A wise person once said: great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, feeble minds discuss people. I invite your mind to not be feeble :-).

 

But if you must know, I am a serial monogamist with a history of long, committed, loving, and healthy relationships. I view my social commentary as disjoint from my own personal situation, which is content and sexually satisfied.

 

Now that we moved beyond "you are, she is", please observe that nothing I said previously contradicts your second paragraph. I am in full agreement with you. I am just pointing out WHY you see the effects in men's behavior that the OP pointed out. There's no need to project onto me positions or characterizations for the sole purpose of discrediting my ideas. Don't be Fox News :-)

[Saxis]

I "settled" and stayed in a relationship with a woman I didn't want to marry or have kids with, while I knew she did. I didn't really know it at the time though. After a divorce and custody battle, marriage and more kids didn't sound like something I would ever want again, with anyone. I stayed because I kind of assumed that I was just bitter, and if I really cared about her that much, I'd eventually change my mind. That didn't happen, and she was really starting to push me about it. I eventually had to leave. That was only a year ago...

 

I decided to try to find someone who felt the same way about marriage and kids, and I did with my current GF. Here we are, only three months in, things are going great between us, and all of a sudden we're both feeling that marriage doesn't sound like a bad idea anymore! And even though we are talking about it this soon, we both know that we won't rush into it. Starting to think it really was something about my X that just didn't seem right...

[lospantalonsfancie]

Extract sex sounds like some crazy sci fi term for abducting some woman bringing her to your spaceship and giving her a vaginal probe. Then beaming her back to her location with no memory of the ordeal. To us normal people it kind of sounds creepy.

 

Yes it was a bad choice of words. English isn't my first language. Sheesh!

[Mme. Chaucer]

No need to personalize it. We are having a debate of issues, not people. A wise person once said: great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, feeble minds discuss people. I invite your mind to not be feeble :-).

 

Your perspective is very personal and you present it as if it is universal. I was interested in where you were coming from as an individual.

 

Also, I completely refute "evolutionary psychology" as a valid excuse or explanation for a great deal of human behavior, especially if it involves dehumanizing others. Of course I know it exists and plays a significant underlying role in how our societies function, and for this reason it's valid to think and talk about. In discussions like this one, though, it's usually trotted out as very dubious "proof" of simplistic gender based generalizations and justification for all kinds of behavior.

 

 

That being said, I will note that as men grow older and more experienced, and learn to attract women and extract sex reliably, the need for such tactics disappears and these men become what women call "well-adjusted" and "mature."

 

This made me wonder how old you were yourself. I am not young, and I know many older men who have the opposite experience and behavior to what you describe.

 

And thanks for the invitation to not be feeble minded. I've been considering giving that a try for years - your permission might be just the boost I've been needing.

[Feelin Frisky]

...And thanks for the invitation to not be feeble minded. I've been considering giving that a try for years - your permission might be just the boost I've been needing.

 

:D:D Maybe I should try that too.

[lospantalonsfancie]

Your perspective is very personal and you present it as if it is universal. I was interested in where you were coming from as an individual.

 

If by personal you mean that I formulated it myself from observing those around me, then yes. However, the attempt to insinuate that it must come from some kind of gender bigotry or vendetta is what I take issue with, and deny categorically. Nothing I said insinuates that women, or anyone, has to do anything they do not want to. All I am pointing out is my observations and analysis as to why the men I have seen around me behave the way that the OP said they do. Every societal norm results in costs and benefits to various parties, and the respective parties react accordingly, and I was posing a theory that explains the mechanism behind the phenomenon pointed out by the OP.

 

 

Also, I completely refute "evolutionary psychology" as a valid excuse or explanation for a great deal of human behavior, especially if it involves dehumanizing others. Of course I know it exists and plays a significant underlying role in how our societies function, and for this reason it's valid to think and talk about. In discussions like this one, though, it's usually trotted out as very dubious "proof" of simplistic gender based generalizations and justification for all kinds of behavior.

 

I think by "refute" you mean "reject", unless you are a high-powered scientist who has refuted evolutionary psychology through ground-breaking peer-reviewed research :-), in which case I apologize. Regardless of your critiques of evolutionary psychology, I do not think they apply to my argument, because I am not attempting to justify any behavior. I'm just pointing out a motivation for the behavior, and explaining the incentive-structure behind it. I think it is unfair that any response other than "These men are WRONG, and we must not attempt to understand or analyze their behavior, only demonize it" is viewed as bigotry on this forum.

 

This made me wonder how old you were yourself. I am not young, and I know many older men who have the opposite experience and behavior to what you describe.

 

Neither am I, though I am probably at the age where men traditionally have the most success with women. Whether I will become like the older men you describe remains to be seen...

 

And thanks for the invitation to not be feeble minded. I've been considering giving that a try for years - your permission might be just the boost I've been needing.

 

I meant that as a good-natured jab. I hope you aren't too offended.

Edited March 6, 2012 by lospantalonsfancie

[RedRobin]

I agree that "extract" is poor choice of terminology. All I'm saying is that men, as they grow older and more attractive and established, often become able to get consentual sex when they want it, honestly and without deception, from willing women.

 

You lost me here. The concept of 'getting' and 'extracting'... however you put it, is just such a foreign concept to me.

 

I'd argue that finding love and genuine intimacy is a challenge for both genders at any age. I'm guessing that many men (like women) get better at learning how to meet the needs of their partners as they grow older as well as how to express their needs in a respectful way. With age (usually, but not always) comes some degree of self-awareness regarding the types of relationships that best suit them.

 

So it should come as no surprise that more and better sex might go along with that. Both for men and for women.

 

Whether it is with one person or many persons... according to their values.

[lospantalonsfancie]

You lost me here. The concept of 'getting' and 'extracting'... however you put it, is just such a foreign concept to me.

 

I'd argue that finding love and genuine intimacy is a challenge for both genders at any age. I'm guessing that many men (like women) get better at learning how to meet the needs of their partners as they grow older as well as how to express their needs in a respectful way. With age (usually, but not always) comes some degree of self-awareness regarding the types of relationships that best suit them.

 

So it should come as no surprise that more and better sex might go along with that. Both for men and for women.

 

Whether it is with one person or many persons... according to their values.

 

 

 

And this is part of the disconnect between the genders. Though there are many exceptions, sex is a physical need for men more so than it is for women. As a result, in the absence of opportunities for "love and genuine intimacy", men often still need physical sex to feel and be healthy. Love and genuine intimacy + sex is even better, obviously, but harder to find and easier to wait for. This is why men often refer to sex as "getting laid" or "get in her pants", and so on --- I'm sure you've heard these expressions before and I'm not breaking this news to you; it is because sex is viewed as satisfaction of a genuine physical need rather than a genuine intimate connection when such a connection is unavailable. It is a foreign concept to you because you are not faced with the same physical imperative for sex that disregards intimacy as a secondary objective. Almost every young man has used these terms, are all those men bigoted, damaged, sexists? I would argue that that is too simplistic a characterization, and these men do deserve some sympathy because their bodies do not make their lives easy.

[FrustratedStandards]

I don't get it.

 

You're saying that a man and a woman CANNOT be friends, and if they are then they are meant for each other?

 

Wow babe, you really have some things to think through.

[silvermercy]

It is actually included in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Its actually on the same level of food, water and shelter. Its also on the level of love and belonging.

As I have said before I've been taught at Uni & subsequent research work (and from common sense) to take all psychology-based research with a grain of salt. It also says sexual INTIMACY (within the context of love, family, friendship). Maslow's hierarchy applies to both genders equally. And of course, you don't die from lack of sex just as you die with lack of food, water or proper shelter.

 

I also disagree with the notion, for men especially, that it's a "need" in order for them to feel healthy or happy. Maybe to some extent; but, hey, I would also feel healthier or happier if I could spent a month's salary on Gucci bags and Louboutin shoes. Utter bliss... I would also feel happier if I traveled around the world which is one of my biggest dreams to the point of obsession- or should I say "needs". But if I don't do that I won't die and people's emotions won't be directly affected whether I fulfill my "need" or not.

Edited March 6, 2012 by silvermercy

[xxoo]

I also disagree with the following (for men especially as it's presented as a "need" in order for them to feel healthy or happy. Maybe, but I would also feel healthier or happier if I was rich for example. I would also feel happier if I travelled around the world which is one of my biggest dreams to the point of obsession- or should I say "needs". But if I don't do that I won't die and people won't be directly affected whether I fulfill my "need" or not.

 

But having a willing sex partner is not equivalent to being rich....it is equivalent to having food in the fridge, and shelter. Having enough, not abundance.

 

Being rich might be equivalent to having [insert fantasy person here] as a sex slave

 

I don't agree with all that lospantanlons is saying, but I do think his point that some men will stay in a comfortable relationship for the access to sex, even if they do not see themselves marrying this woman is valid.

 

Since women tend to have larger support systems outside of a primary relationship, men might also be more likely to stay with a partner they don't think of as "the one" to meet that primary social need.

[silvermercy]

But having a willing sex partner is not equivalent to being rich....it is equivalent to having food in the fridge, and shelter. Having enough, not abundance.

 

Being rich might be equivalent to having [insert fantasy person here] as a sex slave

I wasn't talking about having a sex partner per se but the excuse some people give that sex is like a basic "need" for men and this supposedly excuses them for having a sex partner in such a situation. It doesn't excuse anything IMO. (Hence the "shoes" example; for some women it's like a basic "need" or so they claim, which is not.)

[stillafool]

 

Heres a semi-serious, almost troll-ish, solution: If women just gave out more sex, or if prostitution were legalized, then men wouldn't be so desperate so as to resort to such means!!

 

Women have more sex than men will ever know about. The reason men will never know is because women are judged harshly by men when they reveal their true sex drives and then men view them as undesirable for marriage or girlfriends. If men viewed women's past the way women do mens there would be a lot more women having sex and being truthful about it.

[xxoo]

Women have more sex than men will ever know about. The reason men will never know is because women are judged harshly by men when they reveal their true sex drives and then men view them as undesirable for marriage or girlfriends. If men viewed women's past the way women do mens there would be a lot more women having sex and being truthful about it.

 

It is ironic how men want women to have more sex, and also judge them so harshly for having a lot of sex.

 

But I think the truth is that they want "pure" women when they are ready to marry, with access to lots of sex from women they would never marry until they are ready for marriage. The Madonna, and the whores.

 

The problem is, most women want to be neither!

[silvermercy]

It is ironic how men want women to have more sex, and also judge them so harshly for having a lot of sex.

 

But I think the truth is that they want "pure" women when they are ready to marry, with access to lots of sex from women they would never marry until they are ready for marriage. The Madonna, and the whores.

 

The problem is, most women want to be neither!

Yup! That's what many men want, and its proper name is simply 'cake-eating'. Sorry guys... can't have everything in this life...

Edited March 6, 2012 by silvermercy

[joystickd]

It is ironic how men want women to have more sex, and also judge them so harshly for having a lot of sex.

 

But I think the truth is that they want "pure" women when they are ready to marry, with access to lots of sex from women they would never marry until they are ready for marriage. The Madonna, and the whores.

 

The problem is, most women want to be neither!

 

It happens because women let it happen.

[ffw]

It is ironic how men want women to have more sex, and also judge them so harshly for having a lot of sex.

 

But I think the truth is that they want "pure" women when they are ready to marry, with access to lots of sex from women they would never marry until they are ready for marriage. The Madonna, and the whores.

 

The problem is, most women want to be neither!

 

I disagree with the bolded part. You are generalising the whole gender again. A mature person will accept the partner based on the current relationship, chemistry, etc & don't make the decision based on the subject virgin or non-virgin.

[RedRobin]

And this is part of the disconnect between the genders. Though there are many exceptions, sex is a physical need for men more so than it is for women. As a result, in the absence of opportunities for "love and genuine intimacy", men often still need physical sex to feel and be healthy. Love and genuine intimacy + sex is even better, obviously, but harder to find and easier to wait for. This is why men often refer to sex as "getting laid" or "get in her pants", and so on --- I'm sure you've heard these expressions before and I'm not breaking this news to you; it is because sex is viewed as satisfaction of a genuine physical need rather than a genuine intimate connection when such a connection is unavailable. It is a foreign concept to you because you are not faced with the same physical imperative for sex that disregards intimacy as a secondary objective. Almost every young man has used these terms, are all those men bigoted, damaged, sexists? I would argue that that is too simplistic a characterization, and these men do deserve some sympathy because their bodies do not make their lives easy.

 

 

Um, that is not why it is a foreign concept to me.

 

I don't view relationships, sex, or the things that come with it as getting or extracting. On the other hand, I do realize that there are plenty of people who do view relationships and sex that way... and I avoid them.

 

...and for the other stuff... I believe you are on firmer ground when you speak to your own personal experience and try not to generalize for others. Why men use that terminology? ha. It doesn't sound like you've spent much time around women talking smack, now have you? You'd be surprised. Hell, you'd be surprised to hear how my ex-H's catholic grandma would talk about sex... not to mention my 60 something year old mom. boy oh boy... I have to tell her to shut up every once in awhile cause (la la la la) there are some things I REALLY don't need to know about her and my dad's sex life.

 

Even though I'm a woman, you don't know me at all, nor can you speak for my impressions or experiences... thank you.

[silvermercy]

It happens because women let it happen.

Since Adam and Eve... It's always the women's fault, isn't it!

 

A mature person will accept the partner based on the current relationship, chemistry, etc & don't make the decision based on the subject virgin or non-virgin.

Indeed, a mature person.

[Lonely Ronin]

I'm pretty much the exact opposite of this. I want even ask a woman out if i don't think she could be the one, and as soon as stuff comes out that shows she can't be the one I end the relationship. To me the entire reason for dating is to find the one. Interestingly enough I have always been the dumpee.