fortyninethousand322 Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 Why would you want to date a woman who shies away from commitment if that's what you want either? You should date someone who you're compatible with, in regards to marriage, IMO. And "too soon" is defined by the relationship and the other person. Granted, if you say, WYMM before you say ILY, then, that's probably weird for everyone, but if two partners are in love and on the same page, nobody's going to be "creeped" out about marriage if it's something they'd want for themselves. Unless they realize that person is not the right person to marry---which will probably always be true. There was a man who waited several years to propose to me and it put me off when he proposed because I knew I didn't want to marry him, but hubby knew me less than a year when he proposed. It's not about time---it's about (a) having the mindset AND (b) having the right relationship with the right person. Granted, that takes SOME time in most cases. I was just saying that it's not a men vs women thing. It's a people thing. There are men who shy from commitment and there are women. If I was a betting man (which I'm not) I'd wager that the numbers are just about even for each gender.
zengirl Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 I was just saying that it's not a men vs women thing. It's a people thing. There are men who shy from commitment and there are women. If I was a betting man (which I'm not) I'd wager that the numbers are just about even for each gender. I wouldn't call it fully even---it's probably about even in terms of true commitmentphobes, but men are socialized to have more commitment fear in general and women are socialized to value marriage more in general, even today. So in the 'middle ground,' you'll probably find a few more marriage-minded women than men. I think people adamantly against it might be about even and people dying for it might be about even, though.
xxoo Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 If within a month or two of dating, you don't have enough ease with a person to have an honest conversation about what you want for your life and future--including things like if you would like to be married and have children in the future, or not--that seems like a problem to me. It is less about the answers at that stage, and more about the flow of communication and interest in getting to really know each other. This is basic "getting to know you" stuff!
xxoo Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 But if a guy "pops the question" too soon he's seen as a dangerous creepy weirdo. Just as many women shy away from commitment as men. This is a 13 one way, a baker's dozen the other sort of thing. "Popping the question" is asking someone to marry you. That is very different from asking someone you are getting to know, "how do you feel about marriage? Do you have a desire to be married someday?"
Woggle Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 It's not marriage scares men but men want a woman that wants to marry them and doesn't just want to use them as a prop for their wedding fantasy or is just settling for them because her clock is ticking. These are the kind of women who seven years down the line will be giving the I love you but I am not in love with you speech. Men see what their fathers and if not their fathers many of their father's peers go through and we want to avoid it.
fortyninethousand322 Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 "Popping the question" is asking someone to marry you. That is very different from asking someone you are getting to know, "how do you feel about marriage? Do you have a desire to be married someday?" Very true. But, I'd still say that kind of conversation has equal chance of being well received by both men and women. Women and men can both get weirded out by those types of conversations.
TheSingleGuy Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 ++++Women want what they think they can't get. If they think a guy is easy and wants to commit they'll run like the wind to get away from him. If a guy doesn't want to commit or isn't easy or acts as such then women will be all over him.++++ My experiences with women are this too. ****, nobody gets married anymore. They just move in together. I say those guys who live with their girlfriends and won't marry them are f***ing idiots. Women care so much about what others think. Her friends look at her and her relationship with the guy who doesn't lover her enough to marry her and kind of feel sorry for her. Legally, living together is a common law marriage anyway. Just marry her, make her happier. Plus, if you marry her, you can get a pre-nup. If she moves in, she can claim common-law and take half.
stillafool Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 I think it's just because people fall in love with someone and want to spend the rest of their lives with them. Whether that person wants them or not. Men do the same thing. I can't believe how many men on LS who put up with women who are showing them little to no interest at all in a relationship, much less marriage.
KathyM Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 There seems to be a common theme on LS. There have been a few of "been together x years and he won't propose" threads. Why is this? Why don't people discuss this during the early stages of dating? If I said a month into dating a woman: "We just met and don't know where things are headed but I do believe in marraige", what is wrong with that. I'm not saying I want to marry YOU or am wife hunting. I'm saying that if I meet the right woman I am willing to commit THATS ALL. No one ever discusses it early on and it's usually the poor woman who want m that wind up wondering why he wont propose. Do any of you all have any opinions as to why many women wind up with men who don't want marriage? I think some men are afraid of that kind of commitment, and don't see the advantage of it if they have a live in gf already, and women believe he will eventually change his mind and propose if they hang in there long enough. That tactic often backfires on these women, and they find, after investing years in a relationship, that he's not going to commit. I don't think discussing marriage too early on is a good idea, because some people would think it's moving too fast if you drop the M word too early on. I'd say, if a guy hasn't mentioned marriage or proposed after 1 1/2 years of dating, it's time to bring up the subject and discuss it, and if he has no interest in marriage at that time, or even willing to consider it, it's time to move on.
RedRobin Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 To me, asking about their views of marriage and dating style shouldn't be scary at all. It shouldn't be any scarier than asking someone what their work life is like... or their relationships with friends/family. Like xxoo said, just a part of the getting-to-know-you phase. Anyway, it doesn't have to be brought up in a real in-your-face way. I enjoy telling people I meet about my parent's long marriage. And my friends who are happily married. I think they can 'get it' that I don't have negative views of marriage. I tell them I want to share my life with someone. That can take many forms. Likewise, if someone tells me their horror stories about marriage/commitment (theirs or someone else's), that gives me some indication on their feelings about it and what hurdles might have to be crossed should I decide to keep dating them.
zengirl Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 It's not marriage scares men but men want a woman that wants to marry them and doesn't just want to use them as a prop for their wedding fantasy or is just settling for them because her clock is ticking. I think this idea is why women avoid discussing marriage early on and don't get to know if a man is marriage-minded. Which I think is flawed. I think discussing WEDDING stuff early may be odd, but not marriage views. Two very different things. I think you're absolutely right that no one wants to be a placeholder and certainly not in a marriage! And yes, some women are wedding-crazy, but wedding-crazy isn't marriage-crazy. IMO, a lot of marriage-minded guys can see the difference between wedding-crazy women and marriage-minded women (and you can be both, I suppose, but most women aren't both at the same time).
Woggle Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 Even married minded women might want to marry for the wrong reasons. The only time a man should ever is if he is sure she is marrying becase she is in love with him and not because all her friends are getting married or because she wants a nice ring to show off or because she feels her clock is ticking. If a woman brings up marriage too soon it feels like she is simply looking for a husband instead of falling in love with you.
xxoo Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 Even married minded women might want to marry for the wrong reasons. The only time a man should ever is if he is sure she is marrying becase she is in love with him and not because all her friends are getting married or because she wants a nice ring to show off or because she feels her clock is ticking. If a woman brings up marriage too soon it feels like she is simply looking for a husband instead of falling in love with you. To someone like you, the innocent question (wanting to learn the guy's point of view) sets off alarms. But in my perspective, that is a GREAT reason to talk about it early. If the guy gets all weird about talking about each other's views on marriage, good to know! Woggle, why not just engage in the conversation, stressing the bolded sentence? This is a great opportunity for a guy to express his concerns about marriage, giving examples from his life experience (personal, family, friends), and communicating that while he would like to be married one day, he will be very cautious about who he chooses to marry. That seems like 3rd date conversation to me. If she doesn't like that answer--good to know! 2
zengirl Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 Even married minded women might want to marry for the wrong reasons. The only time a man should ever is if he is sure she is marrying becase she is in love with him and not because all her friends are getting married or because she wants a nice ring to show off or because she feels her clock is ticking. If a woman brings up marriage too soon it feels like she is simply looking for a husband instead of falling in love with you. Well, I met many men who didn't feel that way. I wouldn't have dated someone for even a month without knowing he was marriage-minded (that did not mean I was interested in marrying him obviously) and it didn't scare away any men that I can recall. But I don't tend to date men who are in any way looking out and thinking I might try to "burn" them. I do agree that talking about marrying someone in particular prior to being in love with them is foolish, but marriage isn't all about love. It's also, as one poster said here recently, "a particular way to organize your life." Why date someone who has a different viewpoint on how to organize their life than you do? Seems like a waste of time to me. Granted, I think love is a crucial component to a good marriage, but I don't think it's a good enough reason to get married. I have loved men who I didn't want to marry.
Author SJC2008 Posted March 6, 2012 Author Posted March 6, 2012 Well it seems like women don't want to scare the men off by bringing it up early so I must think like a woman LOL. A REAL mature adult would not be creeped out buy a LIGHT discussion of the topic early on. Like a simple "I know we just met and we don't know where things are headed but when it's all said and done I do believe in marriage" or "Things seem to be progressing so I would like to share some core value with you. I don't believi in living with someone out of wedlock....". It's not a proposal and shodn't send the other one for the hills IMO unless they truly don't want that. It seems like people wind up in r's and then the woman starts breaking the mans balls literally asking him when he's going to propose. I don't want a woman to tell me it's time to propose, I want to do it unsolosited if I know she's the one ya know? 1
KathyM Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 Where is it said that only a man can bring up the topic of marriage, or be the one to suggest it? Isn't that a little old-fashioned? If a guy never brings up the subject, I see no reason why a woman can't broach the subject, and bring it out there for discussion, just to get clarification on his thinking, or where he sees the relationship going, if they've been together a significant period of time.
Author SJC2008 Posted March 6, 2012 Author Posted March 6, 2012 There are some good points here that men don't want to be used for some fantasy wedding or because her clock is ticking. It's a legitimate fear (I'm 30) that a women will be on her best behavior because her clock is ticking and wants someone to give her kids. But people show their true colors usually inside a year so a woman like that would show her cards without even knowing it. Marriage is the ultimate commitment. It means you vow to love your so unconditionally and work through problems, no matter how bad (cheating being an exception). I think our society pressures marriage and a large amount go into it unsure with divorce as an option.
KathyM Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 There are some good points here that men don't want to be used for some fantasy wedding or because her clock is ticking. It's a legitimate fear (I'm 30) that a women will be on her best behavior because her clock is ticking and wants someone to give her kids. But people show their true colors usually inside a year so a woman like that would show her cards without even knowing it. Marriage is the ultimate commitment. It means you vow to love your so unconditionally and work through problems, no matter how bad (cheating being an exception). I think our society pressures marriage and a large amount go into it unsure with divorce as an option. I think there is not the societal pressure to get married like there used to be, but most people do want children someday, and want a firm commitment that only marriage can provide in order to provide a good, strong foundation to raise a family. People also develop such a strong love for a person that marriage is just a natural step in the progression of the relationship. But there are cases where people go into it feeling like it's something that is not permanent, and thinking if it doesn't work out, they can always get a divorce. I do think that a lot of divorces are caused by infidelity, though, and cheating is more prevalent than it used to be, which is one of the big reasons we have such a high divorce rate.
FrustratedStandards Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 If a girl don't want to commit to you, why waist your time with her? It means she does not like you enough...so she is just using you for money, sex or attention, like a tool. i only date girls who would not mind committing to me at least on BF GF level. Most I meet for FWB, NSA stuff....I am not a tool to be used and i don't use people like tools... How can a woman like you enough to commit after only one date? And just because a woman doesn't want marriage or kids, doesn't mean she can't commit. She can still be an incredible and loyal girlfriend. It just means she doesn't want the married life. That doesn't make her a user. It just makes her not the kinda gal some men would date.
FrustratedStandards Posted March 6, 2012 Posted March 6, 2012 Then you move on to the next gal and see what happens. Are you seriously telling me that you expect a girl to commit after a couple of dates? That sounds very clingy.
Author SJC2008 Posted March 6, 2012 Author Posted March 6, 2012 I'm really big on commuication but it seems like many people wind up in relationships without any talks about what's important to him/her. I think that dating should be fun obviously but if it is to see if you are compatible then why don't people bring these things up? I was given advice once here not to "rattle off a list of requirements" but tell her what you like about her. I don't see it as having a list but sharing what's important to you. I can understand a woman not wanting to be the first to tell the man because he could yes her to death and agree just to get into her pants but what's wrong with a man telling someone he's dating the things that are important to him when in an r?
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