StoneCold Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 For argument's sake, let's assume you're right and they are. How does their bitterness change the fact that the spouses were betrayed? Suppose I stopped having sex with my husband for whatever reason...let's say we have twins and I'm exhausted all the time. When I ask my H why he had an A and he says he needed to have sex and I wasn't obliging him, should being partly responsible make me feel better about his choices? Should he feel better that he had a "good" reason to sleep with someone else?. nobody is expecting one to like it. But acknoledging part responsible for the demise would likely help you accept it...which would change what and how you say things.... how you see things.... everything ....maybe even keep you from repeating your errors because you would actually be able to see what your errors were (whatever they may be) see if you just want to come here and say "he/she cheated and that makes me sad...." fine but if you come here and say "he/she cheated...and he/she this and he/she that....... and its all their fault and im the innocent 'victim' "... and point, point, point of the finger (which is what you read more often than not)....thats where you lose some of us What about the OW? If she comes to LS in tears and agony and realizes that hers is not a unique story and as a result is bitter and advises others not to go down that road... Does her bitterness negate the point she's making? Does being bitter necessarily make one illogical? It would really depend on what she is saying and how exactly she is positioning it.
frozensprouts Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 hey stonecold... glad to see you back ... how are things going for you? hope every things going great
frozensprouts Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 To those of you who assumed that Kitsune implied that infidelity is about sex.... I dont see where you get this. Yes, she uses sex as an example but her point was really about rejection. Now when we hear the word "rejection" under this context the popular assumption is sex. But fact is there are any number of ways to be rejected...sex is just one what you say is true...to an extent but what if the spouse who cheats has, in essence "rejected" their spouse by not opening up to them about their problems... I know I felt that way...I felt rotten that my husband wouldn't open up to me about how he was feeling, but he had no problem opening up to someone who was, in essence, a stranger now I understand that pat of the reason was because he didn't want to add extra stress to me when i was already under a lot of stress to begin with. I understand that, but I feel like he didn't trust me to be strong enough to handle it, which I know is unfair of me, but it's how I felt. I know now he was trying to protect me, but by doing so, damage was done ( but I know that wasn't his intention when he started talking to this lady about our problems...he really was trying to protect me, as warped as that sounds) 1
StoneCold Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) what you say is true...to an extent but what if the spouse who cheats has, in essence "rejected" their spouse by not opening up to them about their problems... I know I felt that way...I felt rotten that my husband wouldn't open up to me about how he was feeling, but he had no problem opening up to someone who was, in essence, a stranger now I understand that pat of the reason was because he didn't want to add extra stress to me when i was already under a lot of stress to begin with. I understand that, but I feel like he didn't trust me to be strong enough to handle it, which I know is unfair of me, but it's how I felt. I know now he was trying to protect me, but by doing so, damage was done ( but I know that wasn't his intention when he started talking to this lady about our problems...he really was trying to protect me, as warped as that sounds) never said it only went one way.....more of a "more often than not" Edited March 22, 2012 by StoneCold
donnamaybe Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Regarding cheating, no one is to blame for that but the WS. However, it usually takes two to F up a marriage. Even if it sometimes means that one of the parties didn't realize what a selfish, self centered prick they were married to. Let's all please note I said "SOMETIMES."
StoneCold Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 ok so lets all agree that it more often than not takes two to F up a marriage....and if you play into this....have no expectations
findingnemo Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Stone Cold is here!!! I'm sure Kitsune is making a valid point as I said about taking responsibility but the labels aren't necessary you know. There are all types of BS', OWs/OMs and WS'. People have different moral compasses and calling them bitter isn't dealing with reality. Saying that mostly the "bitter" frequent LS and taint new members by forcing them to conform is also untrue. I can rattle off a few people who remain steadfast in their views however fringe some may find them. Most of them are still here because they know how to communicate and never resort to name calling... They simply state their views and arguments.
StoneCold Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Thought you all would have been happy to have me scarce
Spark1111 Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 what you say is true...to an extent but what if the spouse who cheats has, in essence "rejected" their spouse by not opening up to them about their problems... I know I felt that way...I felt rotten that my husband wouldn't open up to me about how he was feeling, but he had no problem opening up to someone who was, in essence, a stranger now I understand that pat of the reason was because he didn't want to add extra stress to me when i was already under a lot of stress to begin with. I understand that, but I feel like he didn't trust me to be strong enough to handle it, which I know is unfair of me, but it's how I felt. I know now he was trying to protect me, but by doing so, damage was done ( but I know that wasn't his intention when he started talking to this lady about our problems...he really was trying to protect me, as warped as that sounds) I felt the same way.....until I realized for those who struggle with intimacy, it is easier to open up to strangers. It is easier to impress someone who does not know you well enough, warts and all, to pass a negative judgement regarding what type of person you TRULY are 24/7. I was always impressed by my spouse, but not in the way he needed me to be, so he found someone who was. There are people who go through life unable to sustain any long-term intimate relationship because they NEED a steady supply of adoration and admiration from new sources. A compliment from you is not as profound as a compliment from someone new, not as exciting. And for those people, I agree with Kidd, that instead of fixing the broken dishes, it is easier to just buy a new set over and over again. 1
StoneCold Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 those who struggle with intimacy This can be so broad...you need to elaborate There are people who go through life unable to sustain any long-term intimate relationship because they NEED a steady supply of adoration and admiration from new sources.. Yes there are pople that need that steady supply. Butit doesnt necessarily have to be from a new source. it could come from the same source but it has to be the right kind of adoration And for those people, I agree with Kidd, that instead of fixing the broken dishes, it is easier to just buy a new set over and over again. Its not always a question of whats easier. They may just not see the point in the effort needed to "fix it"....if you can even fixed it at all (important to note). To people like this "fixing it" may prove nothing so why bother
mzdolphin Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 what you say is true...to an extent but what if the spouse who cheats has, in essence "rejected" their spouse by not opening up to them about their problems... I know I felt that way...I felt rotten that my husband wouldn't open up to me about how he was feeling, but he had no problem opening up to someone who was, in essence, a stranger now I understand that pat of the reason was because he didn't want to add extra stress to me when i was already under a lot of stress to begin with. I understand that, but I feel like he didn't trust me to be strong enough to handle it, which I know is unfair of me, but it's how I felt. I know now he was trying to protect me, but by doing so, damage was done ( but I know that wasn't his intention when he started talking to this lady about our problems...he really was trying to protect me, as warped as that sounds) We must be held accountable for our actions, not our thoughts. So even if you feel rejected, you have an obligation to share this with your partner before going outside of the marriage. If things are beyond repair, move on. Tell your spouse you are moving on. Don't cheat. It hurts everybody. 1
frozensprouts Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 We must be held accountable for our actions, not our thoughts. So even if you feel rejected, you have an obligation to share this with your partner before going outside of the marriage. If things are beyond repair, move on. Tell your spouse you are moving on. Don't cheat. It hurts everybody. the thing is that his problems really had nothing to do with me per se, but were rather there were a lot of stresses at the time ( in the space of 2 1/2 years, two of our kids had been diagnosed with chronic health issues and the third had a a major "health scare", he'd been arguing with his parents, he'd had a friend/colleague killed on deployment and was being deployed himself, there were the usual issues with money, etc.). He was feeling really low, but felt like he couldn't talk to me as he didn't want to "burden" me with his problems. Instead, he talked to this other lady, and somehow, his not wanting to tell me turned ( in his mind) into me not wanting to listen. He was telling our counselor how I didn't listen to him, and she asked him if he'd ever really tried to tell me how he'd been feeling.counselor even asked him if he'd ever told me how he was feeling...after some thought, his answer was "no"... i felt like i was being punished for something i knew nothing about. 2
The Blue Knight Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Forget LS, and its hidden agenda. LS is toxic. It does NOT whant you to love, understand, heal. It wants to keep your pain alive, as it gets more money per click. If you want to be a better person, dont come here. I expect this post, as most of my others will be banned. I truly hope it has helped one person, aprt from the 20 year old pathetic LS sheep who post here (you know who you are) Kits, I think loveshack is what you want it to be. There are very angry and resentful people here and somewhat troubled individuals struggling to find answers in their relationships . . . and just about everything in between. Personally, my own posting in July of last year had about 90% good people with good advice. There's always going to be those who just vent on everything thread and generally I ignore those and would advise others to do the same.
The Blue Knight Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 His reasons were : opportunities presented themselves often, he liked doing something that was forbidden/wrong, he liked the constant ego stroking to feel good about himself, he liked the variety of different women sexually, etc. I'll give your husband credit for bold honesty if that's how he explained it to you BB. That's fairly straightforward for a guy who got caught in the act. 1
The Blue Knight Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 You are a wise, wise man. Women are NOT men biologically, and we need the emotional connection to desire sex, and the sex we desire is intimate, emotion-filled, passionate, sensual, and lasting longer than the average 7 minutes to round the bases. If a man doesn't understand this, that we need to be courted the entire relationship, he may be doomed to being rejected often. And if he does, he gets most of the sex he wants. Women need to understand a man's biology; that sex is how he shows his feelings, and just do it, initiate it, fast and furious the way he would like. Few things turn a man on more than be sexually desired by a woman he loves. Women can't forget that. Well, may I pay you back the same compliment Spark? You appear to have the inside track to a man's heart, as well as other unnamed anatomical areas. You know what? It's not that tough. Most of the time it comes down to simple selfish behavior within the marriage. Selfishness breeds laziness and emotional apathy, which in turn leads to contempt and lack of effort of one or both spouses . . . and before you know it, two people living separate lives (I think that was a song). 2
The Blue Knight Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 I hear you, TBK. But sometimes (as in our case), enough emotional needs were met that it masked more important problems. It actually helps us push those problems in the back of our minds, and even though we knew we had problems, we didn't stop long enough to think what those problems were and how we could fix them. My husband and I did not always act detached (most of the time we didn't). We had some periods, but we always acted lovingly (minus the sexual intimacy). I realize how ridiculous this sounds: how can you be close without being close, but we were in denial. My husband would always kiss me before leaving work and after coming home. In fact, he would kiss me before he went to see the other woman, and seem happy to see me when he came home from her. It disgusts me to no end. These days, our conversations are a lot more emotional, but our behavior towards each other is also more passionate. We both notice now what real closeness looks like, and we know we have the potential to experience it. The problem plaguing us now is my lack of trust in him. It sounds like you reached the politeness point in your marriage where you both simply went through the motions while side-stepping around the bigger issues to remain comfortable. I'd have a hard time with that. I could do that dance for only so long and then I'd hit the wall . . . HARD I think you nailed it though Sandie. You've brought back passion to your marriage, and once that's removed from the marriage, at least in my mind . . . she's alllllllllll over
The Blue Knight Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 A lot of what you said is not far from the truth. There are a lot of people who were hurt and never dealt with their problems. Hence, everything out of their mouths is bitter. There are private detective firms advertising here, feeding on our vulnerable state to retain their services and know for sure what kind of scumbag we were living with. Not unlike watching an episode of Jerry Springer or Maury Povich . . . a buddy and I at work call those two losers "misery pimps" 1
StoneCold Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) We must be held accountable for our actions, not our thoughts. So even if you feel rejected, you have an obligation to share this with your partner before going outside of the marriage.. Sometimes the answers to the BS's questions of "why" are in their head already... reads like... "you have an obligation to voice your concerns and if that goes nowhere then go outside". I'm willing to wager many (not all) indeeed voiced their concerns and it fell on deaf ears... thats what happens when things go south in a marriage... people communicate their concerns and the other just ignores or blocks them out because they just arent having it.... then all kinds of by-products may come about... one of them is cheating in some cases If things are beyond repair, move on. Tell your spouse you are moving on. Don't cheat. It hurts everybody. Leaving can hurt everybody too... your relationship gets to a certain point... cheating or not...nobody is getting out of that thing with feelings intact (very rare). I've seen relationships where I know cheating wasnt involved but they were train wrecks.... I've hurt far more in the past because I left (oh man I could think of a few...pretty bad)....not because I cheated... know of way more people that were utterly shattered because "they left".... and the people that were shattered for cheating? I could probably count on one hand. you may think I am leaning to one side... but I'm not... I just figured I should shed light on the big sobering other side of your poin; because you way oversimplified that one Edited March 23, 2012 by StoneCold
findingnemo Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Of course I'm glad you're here, Stone. You are the voice of the MM that is rare here and you have no issues debating a point. How can anyone not miss that? It is true that when a spouse has problems with how things are going, they bring it up for discussion. Sometimes the partner listens and other times the partner doesn't. Sometimes it's a genuine issue, other times it's bull shyte. I've always been forthright in Rs. If I'm not happy, I discuss the issue. If I'm being ignored I state clearly that if things go on, I will do A, B or C. I'm strong-willed and many times have done things that I think were for the best but they turned out wrong. However, I never felt a need to lie to my H or bfs. I think this is what many posters mean when they talk about dishonesty. If a spouse has a problem (not just sex) and brings it up, they should communicate effectively. Tell your H that this is a big problem for you and if he doesn't change soon, you'll look for a solution outside your M. By cheating a WS deprives the BS of their right to choose a solution to their mutual problem. The WS deliberately violates a basic rule of relationships...and they know it. They mislead the BS into thinking all is well. If they didn't do all that and were open about their activities and thoughts, I doubt that we'd see the anguish many LS members experience. While leaving can cause a lot of pain, at least it's not as much as cheating. In any case, I wouldn't want someone to decide what is good or bad for me without consulting me first. To say that my H cheated because he thought it would hurt me less than just up and leaving makes no sense. It's like a double blow. He lied to me for whatever time and the discovery of this means my M was over way before I knew it was. So now I'm hurt that I've been taken for a ride by a person I love and my comfortable life as I knew it is over. It's like a con... 1
alexandria35 Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Sometimes the answers to the BS's questions of "why" are in their head already... reads like... "you have an obligation to voice your concerns and if that goes nowhere then go outside". I'm willing to wager many (not all) indeeed voiced their concerns and it fell on deaf ears... thats what happens when things go south in a marriage... people communicate their concerns and the other just ignores or blocks them out because they just arent having it.... then all kinds of by-products may come about... one of them is cheating in some cases Leaving can hurt everybody too... your relationship gets to a certain point... cheating or not...nobody is getting out of that thing with feelings intact (very rare). I've seen relationships where I know cheating wasnt involved but they were train wrecks.... I've hurt far more in the past because I left (oh man I could think of a few...pretty bad)....not because I cheated... know of way more people that were utterly shattered because "they left".... and the people that were shattered for cheating? I could probably count on one hand. you may think I am leaning to one side... but I'm not... I just figured I should shed light on the big sobering other side of your poin; because you way oversimplified that one While I agree that cheating isn't always involved in a very painful break up, I think that one can safely assume that the discovery of cheating will take an already painful situation and make it ohhh...about a hundred times worse! In my last long term relationship we had a break up from hell. Most painful break up of my life. About 2 months later, while I was still devastated and trying to nurse myself back to good emotional health, I got word that my ex was being seen out and about with a new woman and they were quite involved. This of course sent me into a downward spiral while new questions were burning me up inside. Where did she come from? Was she in the picture before we broke up? How could he be with someone else so soon? etc, etc. Once I got the full story and it seemed that she was definitely not on the scene at the time we were coming apart, I was able to resume my more normal state of grieving. My long term relationship prior to that one was with an alcoholic. As you can imagine there was a lot of pain there too. Both during the relationship and at the end of it. Very sad and heartbreaking. I cried for his pain and he cried for mine. We definitely loved each other but the alcohol had destroyed us. There was no cheating involved and to this day I am very proud of both of us that we never added that to the mix. Given the level of pain and dyfunction in our relationship, cheating would have been an easy thing for either one of us to do and justify to ourselves. As bad as things got I am very happy neither one of us sank to that level of disrespect as it surely would have made a painful situation much more painful. Once we were through the initial emotional turmoil of breaking up we were able to part with feelings of goodwill and respect for each other and till this day I wish nothing but good things for him. I am very thankful for that. 3
StoneCold Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 I think that one can safely assume that the discovery of cheating will take an already painful situation and make it ohhh...about a hundred times worse! No.....not necessarily... it all depends on the people involved and how the relationship took a turn before finding out about it. Sure for some it may make it worse.... but for others, there may be a nominal effect....perhaps even a joke or laughing point (I know quite a few like that) .... for many I know it was the closure they needed and provided relief
Kitsune77 Posted March 23, 2012 Posted March 23, 2012 Sometimes those roles are reversred. PI think that married men and women are both capable of finding surrogates frankly but typically with differing motives. Married women often are looking for an emotional connection that is nonexistent at home and will use sex to gain it. Married men are often looking for a sexual connection that is nonexistent at home and will use the emotional connection to get it. Both of those ideals are based on the normal (non-serial cheater) who wants to be in the marriage but finds a huge component of the marriage missing, as I view your husband.
Author SandieBeach Posted March 23, 2012 Author Posted March 23, 2012 the thing is that his problems really had nothing to do with me per se, but were rather there were a lot of stresses at the time ( in the space of 2 1/2 years, two of our kids had been diagnosed with chronic health issues and the third had a a major "health scare", he'd been arguing with his parents, he'd had a friend/colleague killed on deployment and was being deployed himself, there were the usual issues with money, etc.). He was feeling really low, but felt like he couldn't talk to me as he didn't want to "burden" me with his problems. Instead, he talked to this other lady, and somehow, his not wanting to tell me turned ( in his mind) into me not wanting to listen. He was telling our counselor how I didn't listen to him, and she asked him if he'd ever really tried to tell me how he'd been feeling.counselor even asked him if he'd ever told me how he was feeling...after some thought, his answer was "no"... i felt like i was being punished for something i knew nothing about. Frozensprouts, our situation was similar to yours (minus your husband's military background). My husband was so used to taking care of everything himself for almost all of his life, and he had issues where he did not let anyone in, including me. The worst thing is that in many instances, he would not share his stresses and made his own decision that I would be burdened. I think that's the biggest mistake we can make with respect to communication in relationships: when we decide how much our significant other can handle. We make a decision for them rather than telling them what the problems are and letting them decide for themselves what's burdensome. Before we got married, my husband and I lived together but had separate finances and only shared what was necessary. Unfortunately, after we got married, we never tried to change it, and it became such an unspoken issue. These days, when we are having calm discussions, we are talking about sharing everything if we end up staying together, a complete 180 degree switch. Frankly, if that was not on the table, there would be no point trying to work anything out. 2
Author SandieBeach Posted March 23, 2012 Author Posted March 23, 2012 It sounds like you reached the politeness point in your marriage where you both simply went through the motions while side-stepping around the bigger issues to remain comfortable. I'd have a hard time with that. I could do that dance for only so long and then I'd hit the wall . . . HARD I think you nailed it though Sandie. You've brought back passion to your marriage, and once that's removed from the marriage, at least in my mind . . . she's alllllllllll over Absolutely. We chose not to ruffle any feathers, and clearly we were both at a point of finding it easier to consider an affair than to talk about it. Well, it was clearly harder for me to have an affair than it was for him, but I was just as vulnerable to it. Ugh, why didn't anyone tell me that marriage was such hard work!
Author SandieBeach Posted March 23, 2012 Author Posted March 23, 2012 I think this is what many posters mean when they talk about dishonesty. If a spouse has a problem (not just sex) and brings it up, they should communicate effectively. Tell your H that this is a big problem for you and if he doesn't change soon, you'll look for a solution outside your M. By cheating a WS deprives the BS of their right to choose a solution to their mutual problem. The WS deliberately violates a basic rule of relationships...and they know it. They mislead the BS into thinking all is well. If they didn't do all that and were open about their activities and thoughts, I doubt that we'd see the anguish many LS members experience. While leaving can cause a lot of pain, at least it's not as much as cheating. In any case, I wouldn't want someone to decide what is good or bad for me without consulting me first. To say that my H cheated because he thought it would hurt me less than just up and leaving makes no sense. It's like a double blow. He lied to me for whatever time and the discovery of this means my M was over way before I knew it was. So now I'm hurt that I've been taken for a ride by a person I love and my comfortable life as I knew it is over. It's like a con... I agree with that Nemo. If my H expressed in any way that he was willing to go outside of our marriage to get what he was not getting from me, I would have fought for him....very hard. Regarding your second point, I think that the cheating spouse's decision not to leave (and to cheat instead) had little to do about BS's feelings. The WS was either not ready to leave at all, or not ready to leave at that time. I doubt it had much to do with hurting BS less by cheating. 1
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