maybealone Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 It's kind of funny; many women criticize men because they want to rush into sex (I don't), but women often want to rush into a LTR. Some do, sure. But I think a lot of what you are seeing is women that want to date exclusively. I know there is no difference for you, but for me, it's a HUGE difference. A LTR is something I would never rush into, but I am still not fond of sleeping with someone who is sleeping around. Going out with friends, focusing on yourself, not having to answer to me or anyone else, not feeling like we need to see each other X times a week, being able to meet other women, that's all cool when dating exclusively. But I'm not sure I could handle having breakfast with you after a night (and middle of the night, and morning) of passionate sex only to know you're going to do the same thing with someone else the next night. If I didn't care about the guy and the relationship was pretty much purely physical, that would be completely different.
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 Some do, sure. But I think a lot of what you are seeing is women that want to date exclusively. I know there is no difference for you, but for me, it's a HUGE difference. All I can do is avoid profiles that state they want a commitment and be honest about what I want. I can't do more than that.
maybealone Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 All I can do is avoid profiles that state they want a commitment and be honest about what I want. I can't do more than that. No, you really can't. And I honestly think you are handling things very well, and know yourself and your needs very well too. It's just kind of too bad there's no middle ground between sleeping around and being in a serious, committed LTR for you. You could be missing out on some good stuff in between.
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 No, you really can't. And I honestly think you are handling things very well, and know yourself and your needs very well too. It's just kind of too bad there's no middle ground between sleeping around and being in a serious, committed LTR for you. You could be missing out on some good stuff in between. If you could define this middle ground I would sincerely appreciate it. As I've stated; I'm not interested in simply "sleeping around". My focus is not on getting laid. Maybe it will help if I paste something from my OLD profile: I have spent almost all of the past 25 years in two relationships, first a 10 year marriage and recently a 13 year long monogamous partnership. I've been single for a few months now, and it's a good thing for me. I like my ex, but not the relationship as it was. I moved here after breaking it off and I'm excited about meeting new people. I speak with both my ex girlfriend and ex wife regularly and I value their friendship. What attracts me to a woman is open-mindedness, a sense of adventure, and the ability to see the humorous side of things. Ideally we would all like to find our soul mate, but I don't believe you can order one online. My goal here is to meet like-minded people and let nature takes its course. Suggestions?
carhill Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Suggestions? IMO, lose the "I speak with both my ex girlfriend and ex wife regularly and I value their friendship". 1
maybealone Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 If you could define this middle ground I would sincerely appreciate it. My middle ground would be exclusive dating. For me, these are the differences. Exclusive dating: You aren't sleeping with anyone but me, but that doesn't mean I have to be the priority in your life. We are independent people who go out with friends, focus on ourselves, see each other when we can, and have as much sex as possible (obviously, since we aren't getting any from anyone else ). It might evolve into something more, it might not. Basically, it's just dating one person at a time with no promises other than not having sex with other people. If someone asks your relationship status, you say you are "seeing someone." If it's a woman that has caught your eye, you can add something like "but it's not serious." If you and this woman decide to date, you tell me and you don't sleep with her until we either discuss it or break up. (Or, if she really caught your eye, just break up with me.) LTR: We are focused on each other with the potential of having a future together. Not only are we not seeing other people, we aren't intentionally looking for anyone else. We see each other as much as we can. If someone asks your relationship status, you say you "have a girlfriend." As I've stated; I'm not interested in simply "sleeping around". Yeah, "sleeping around" probably wasn't the right choice of words in my posts. If I understand correctly, the issue isn't as much about you wanting to have sex with multiple women at once, it's that there is nothing between multiple dating and being in a serious LTR for you. And in some ways, they are very similar because if you are seeing someone exclusively, you aren't dating anyone else. I just don't equate that to a LTR, which is much more serious to me than simply dating one person at a time. You already stated that you might be uncomfortable sleeping with a woman who is sleeping with other men, so think of it in those terms: Most women aren't looking for a LTR, they just want a man who isn't sleeping with other women at the same time he is sleeping with them. Not that I can't see the benefits to dating multiple people at once, I just don't think that I could personally do that when sex is involved. Or, at the very least, I don't think I could be nearly as uninhibited in sex with someone if I knew they were still sleeping with others (which is probably some sort of trust thing). And apparently I'm overly chatty today. My apologies for the super long posts.
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 IMO, lose the "I speak with both my ex girlfriend and ex wife regularly and I value their friendship". I understand the reason you say that, I think, but isn't it important that women understand that I won't isolate myself from old friends and lovers? I'm not trying to get the maximum volume of responses to my profile.
carhill Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Don't advertise it. Women don't think like men. Your exes are your past.
maybealone Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I don't have experience with OLD, but my husband is friends with all his exes, so I have experience with that. isn't it important that women understand that I won't isolate myself from old friends and lovers? Absolutely, just not necessarily before you even meet the woman. As I said, I have no problem with men staying friends with exes, but that doesn't mean I want it thrown at me from the start. If you want to compromise, say you value their friendship but leave out the talking regularly part. Let the women ask questions about your relationships with them if they feel the need to.
carhill Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 OP, frankly, most people in general would feel that it's odd that you're 'friends' with an ex you just broke up with after 13 years. Heck, I even mention one good time from the past with my exW, whom I've been divorced from for nearly 18 months now, and friend's wives will opine 'you still love her' where, in reality, at most, I'm just cordial when we have contact because that's the kind of man I am. Like I said, men and women think differently and your 'friendliness' with past lovers is not something which needs to be advertised in an OLD profile. Admirable, yes! Just don't advertise it.
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 My middle ground would be exclusive dating. For me, these are the differences. Exclusive dating: You aren't sleeping with anyone but me, but that doesn't mean I have to be the priority in your life. We are independent people who go out with friends, focus on ourselves, see each other when we can, and have as much sex as possible (obviously, since we aren't getting any from anyone else ). It might evolve into something more, it might not. Basically, it's just dating one person at a time with no promises other than not having sex with other people. If someone asks your relationship status, you say you are "seeing someone." If it's a woman that has caught your eye, you can add something like "but it's not serious." If you and this woman decide to date, you tell me and you don't sleep with her until we either discuss it or break up. (Or, if she really caught your eye, just break up with me.) LTR: We are focused on each other with the potential of having a future together. Not only are we not seeing other people, we aren't intentionally looking for anyone else. We see each other as much as we can. If someone asks your relationship status, you say you "have a girlfriend." I'm really struggling with this. I don't mean to sound harsh toward anyone, but "exclusive dating" sounds almost sleazy to me. A women gives herself to me sexually and emotionally but it's not a big deal if I "happen" to meet another woman who I think I might like better so I dump the original woman? I think if that's the standard for dating then I might just have to go back to dating multiple people and not having sex with anyone until I find a LTR. How would the woman I'm talking about feel if I have a sexual relationship with her for 3-4 months and then break it off because I met someone who I want to try out next? That seems worse to me than if she dated me, having already said she wouldn't have sex with me under these circumstances, knowing that I'm dating others and that I might be having sex with them. At least in the latter scenario she has a better chance of keeping emotional distance with me.
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 OP, frankly, most people in general would feel that it's odd that you're 'friends' with an ex you just broke up with after 13 years. Heck, I even mention one good time from the past with my exW, whom I've been divorced from for nearly 18 months now, and friend's wives will opine 'you still love her' where, in reality, at most, I'm just cordial when we have contact because that's the kind of man I am. Like I said, men and women think differently and your 'friendliness' with past lovers is not something which needs to be advertised in an OLD profile. Admirable, yes! Just don't advertise it. Yeah, in reality I'm on good terms with my ex GF, but it's not at the level of a good friendship yet. That's because she's having trouble moving on. I'm ready to be that type of friend for her though. My ex wife on the other hand is a great friend. Last summer we went down a river on an inner tube with her 10 year old daughter and husband. I'll change my profile. Thanks.
carhill Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 How would the woman I'm talking about feel if I have a sexual relationship with her for 3-4 months and then break it off because I met someone who I want to try out next? Her feelings are her responsibility. Who taught me this? A lifetime of women who have done exactly what you propose. It's how life works for adults. Either ride the bear or get eaten by the bear. TBH, my current feeling is that you're over-thinking this. Enjoy the company of ladies and what happens, happens. If one stands out from the crowd, explore a future with her, dating exclusively and getting to know her and only her better. If that leads to a 'relationship', that. If not, that. Follow and communicate your own code of behavior regarding sex, whatever it is. EOS. Example: I confine sex to 'relationships', meaning the meet/greet, exclusive dating, flesh pressing stuff leads to 'I want a future with you; I love you and I will enjoy making love with you'. This works for *my* psychology. It may be completely wrong for someone else, and often is. That's how life works. Sometimes we hit; sometimes we miss. It's OK to miss. No harm, no foul, the animals are safe.
InJest Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 "How would the woman I'm talking about feel if I have a sexual relationship with her for 3-4 months and then break it off because I met someone who I want to try out next?" That's for her to deal with. That's the double edged sword of her equating sex with commitment. She's the one that came up with that rule, not you. A few pages back, I suggested that you do just this. Pick the one you like best now, and ride it out. If you don't like her, then break up with her. From what you two have already discussed, that is an entirely fair way to go about it.
2sunny Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I'm not "friends" with my exH of 20 years. We are cordial - but it ended for a reason and IF I were friends with him it would send him a message that he's allowed to be a part of my life. I have a solid boundary - that keeps him at a distance - sometimes I do have to remind him that im not answering his questions because I'm NOT his wife. It also allows any man I date to understand that I'm not hanging on to my PAST, it's over! 1
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 Her feelings are her responsibility. Who taught me this? A lifetime of women who have done exactly what you propose. It's how life works for adults. Either ride the bear or get eaten by the bear. TBH, my current feeling is that you're over-thinking this. Enjoy the company of ladies and what happens, happens. If one stands out from the crowd, explore a future with her, dating exclusively and getting to know her and only her better. If that leads to a 'relationship', that. If not, that. Follow and communicate your own code of behavior regarding sex, whatever it is. EOS. Example: I confine sex to 'relationships', meaning the meet/greet, exclusive dating, flesh pressing stuff leads to 'I want a future with you; I love you and I will enjoy making love with you'. This works for *my* psychology. It may be completely wrong for someone else, and often is. That's how life works. Sometimes we hit; sometimes we miss. It's OK to miss. No harm, no foul, the animals are safe. "How would the woman I'm talking about feel if I have a sexual relationship with her for 3-4 months and then break it off because I met someone who I want to try out next?" That's for her to deal with. That's the double edged sword of her equating sex with commitment. She's the one that came up with that rule, not you. A few pages back, I suggested that you do just this. Pick the one you like best now, and ride it out. If you don't like her, then break up with her. From what you two have already discussed, that is an entirely fair way to go about it. Yes, I know that it's each woman's responsibility to take care of her own emotions. I even said the same thing earlier in reference to my other dating approach (no commitment of any kind, sex with willing partners). Maybe it comes down to efficiency for me. Plan A. "Exclusive dating" I'll call this "normal" dating. We do something that is very much like a LTR, but we keep one eye open for better prospects. If a better match appears then one of us has to be the bearer of bad news and the other gets their heart broken. In the meantime we haven't been actively dating so both of us may have missed some great opportunities, but at least we were getting laid. Plan B. "No commitment of any kind - with optional sex" This is what I was leaning towards recently. I make it plain to women that I meet that I will not be making a commitment of any kind until sometime in future. I'll date multiple women and they have the option of having sex or not, and also the option of dating others too. Plan C. "No commitment of any kind - without sex" This is the fallback, desperation position I'll take if I can't reconcile this dating nonsense. I'll date multiple women and they will all know that I'm not being sexual with anyone until I'm ready for a LTR. This should drive everyone crazy but it removes the biggest stumbling block, sex.
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 I'm not "friends" with my exH of 20 years. We are cordial - but it ended for a reason and IF I were friends with him it would send him a message that he's allowed to be a part of my life. I have a solid boundary - that keeps him at a distance - sometimes I do have to remind him that im not answering his questions because I'm NOT his wife. It also allows any man I date to understand that I'm not hanging on to my PAST, it's over! I'm great friends with my ex wife and her new family. I don't consider that "hanging on to the past". Her husband believed this as did my ex GF because we all could see that it was only friendship.
carhill Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Such dynamics as close friendships with ex'es are great fodder for the 'getting to know' process of dating with an eye on the future with this person, since this person, if in one's future, will be interacting with the ex commonly or on occasion. It's good to know and accept how the person feels about such interactions. Some people don't mind (I don't, personally); others prefer no contact or only, as 2sunny mentions, 'cordial' contact. This is kind of a sideline to the main thread topic, but underscores a dynamic relevant to the 'sex=commitment' subject matter, in that clearly defining such boundaries and communicating them is part and parcel of interpersonal relationships and how the totality of such dynamics are described. As an example, while I don't mind a partner being 'friends' with an ex (my exW was with her second exH, for example), I do insist on three things: 1. I'm included, as is the other person's SO/spouse 2. The friendship is transparent to the M/LTR 3. Our relationship is her priority. Those are my boundaries, consistent with my philosophy of progressing a romantic relationship to monogamy, sex and marriage. Again, as a disclaimer, YMMV, meaning your process and boundaries will be different and unique. Clarify, communicate, act consistently.
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 Updated blurb from my OLD profile: What attracts me to a woman is open-mindedness, a sense of adventure, and the ability to see the humorous side of things. Ideally we would all like to find our soul mate, but I don't believe you can order one online. My goal here is to meet like-minded people and let nature takes its course. I'm open to a long term relationship, but I need to give myself some time just dating for while. People have differing definitions for "dating", but I will always be straightforward about what I'm doing. I don't lie to the women I meet, and I do everything possible to communicate what's in my heart and in my mind. I'm aware that it's probably not a conventional approach. I'm not a conventional person and women should know that up front. I'm interested in communicating with strong and open-minded women so I'm happy to weed out a large percentage.
mattoondah Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I registered with this forum JUST to reply to this thread, cause I feel for you! The thing you don't realize is it's not, what the woman says she wants for the relationship, and that's it end of discussion. You have to MAN UP and say "No" to her to get what you want. If you want sex without commitment there is nothing wrong with that. It's in your nature as a man especially coming out of a 13 year relationship. You absolutely don't have to lie or cheat to get that. But you do have to be willing to walk. Both the women are pushing for commitment because they know they can get it - with most men. I have had commitment-less sexual relationships carry on for well over a year simply by saying NO to a woman. No I'm not giving you commitment. We can have it be sexual and continue dating, or we can have nothing. The key is I was truly willing to walk because I didn't want commitment and - here's the big news flash - what YOU want as a man IS important. Women only run you in a relationship if you LET them. Most women I've dated have pushed for commitment early, and when I say No... they would rather continue dating me and I get what I want anyway. Usually, they ended up getting what they wanted ultimately by sticking it out. I gave them commitment, months later when I was ready. I'm not going to be strong-armed into something I don't want. A few have walked. Oh well, their loss. I'm doing this with girls in their 20s and 30s in their physical PRIME. Surely you can say No to a woman in her 40s/50s. Come on. If you were a businessman negotiating a deal, would you just accept the first offer? Stand up for what you want, if you lose a few women along the way so be it. MAN UP.
2sunny Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 When a man talks - or types - too much - or much at all - about his past... It leads me to believe he's not living in the NOW! And by that I mean also "moving forward" by letting GO of what is past.
2sunny Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I'm great friends with my ex wife and her new family. I don't consider that "hanging on to the past". Her husband believed this as did my ex GF because we all could see that it was only friendship. That's good for you... But when I assessed respecting his NEW WIFE and HONORING what marriage was about - I realized that THEIR marriage should not include me.
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 I registered with this forum JUST to reply to this thread, cause I feel for you! The thing you don't realize is it's not, what the woman says she wants for the relationship, and that's it end of discussion. You have to MAN UP and say "No" to her to get what you want. If you want sex without commitment there is nothing wrong with that. It's in your nature as a man especially coming out of a 13 year relationship. You absolutely don't have to lie or cheat to get that. But you do have to be willing to walk. Both the women are pushing for commitment because they know they can get it - with most men. I have had commitment-less sexual relationships carry on for well over a year simply by saying NO to a woman. No I'm not giving you commitment. We can have it be sexual and continue dating, or we can have nothing. The key is I was truly willing to walk because I didn't want commitment and - here's the big news flash - what YOU want as a man IS important. Women only run you in a relationship if you LET them. Most women I've dated have pushed for commitment early, and when I say No... they would rather continue dating me and I get what I want anyway. Usually, they ended up getting what they wanted ultimately by sticking it out. I gave them commitment, months later when I was ready. I'm not going to be strong-armed into something I don't want. A few have walked. Oh well, their loss. I'm doing this with girls in their 20s and 30s in their physical PRIME. Surely you can say No to a woman in her 40s/50s. Come on. If you were a businessman negotiating a deal, would you just accept the first offer? Stand up for what you want, if you lose a few women along the way so be it. MAN UP. Thanks for the effort, but I'm not sure what you mean with the "man up" comments because I'm not being pushed around by anyone. I'm setting my own boundaries. This thread is just a tool to help me figure out what I want. If I was caving in I would have already committed to the extremely hot and fun women that's the inspiration for this discussion. 25 years ago before I got married I practiced exactly what you described. It worked fine and I dated a lot of women. Many of them pushed for a commitment and I respectfully declined. At my current age I have more of an interest in deeper relationships, so I'm considering alternative approaches. When I was young it was mostly about sex. Now I'm more about heart and mind.
2sunny Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I think you should approach it the way that works for you... The women who don't dig it - they will step away if your style doesn't work for them.
Author J322Y Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 That's good for you... But when I assessed respecting his NEW WIFE and HONORING what marriage was about - I realized that THEIR marriage should not include me. Clearly your relationship with them is different than what I have with my ex and her family. I consider her husband to be a friend, and if they lived close by I would spend as much time with him as with her. I'm lucky to have them as friends and they feel the same way. When my wife and I divorced we weren't fighting. We realized over time that the marriage wasn't working but we didn't become hostile. When we went to the courthouse to file divorce papers the clerk at the window was amazed because we were joking around with each other. He even asked to see us after the hearing to see if we would still be civil with each other. After the divorce we drank wine with the friend who came as our witness. I think this was possible because she knows that I never lied to or cheated on her, and that I respected her, and she did the same.
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