RedRobin Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Ok, now that you know the recipe (magazine = pushing unrealistic standards) then you can stop eating it up. Most marketing is designed to produce an emotional reaction so that you buy their product. There is a not-so-nice part of me that watches with amusement as men are now diluged with marketing images of six-packs (and not the kind you drink!) on hairless men... pushing the idea they must shave or get their chests waxed not to mention endless hours at the gym. None of it is healthy or realistic. Just....put....it....down and walk away.
Els Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 LOL as if I was the one to bring up the superficial talk. If you want to call me out and say that my supposed superficiality is the reason why I'm getting rejected then not explain how, why bother bringing it up at all? As I said, I tried explaining for several pages, and nothing came of it except frustration and anger on both sides. If you really want to know, go and read the posts I made in that thread again - if you are genuinely open to understanding and have questions about them, I will be happy to oblige. Otherwise, there is no point in beating a dead horse and simply repeating everything I said there. I have no intention to spend time arguing with someone whom I am trying to help.
Els Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 So let me get this straight... the reasons those women's articles are ridiculous is because they were written by women. But when women DO go and ask men what they want, then we shouldn't listen to what the men actually SAY because it's "fantasy." Men don't give lists because men don't think about it, or they aren't honest about it. It doesn't mean they don't have them. A lot of guys grow up with an entitled idea of what they should get in a woman, but they don't think of it as a "list of requirements"... they just see it as "the way things are." Men have plenty of ridiculous standards about women's bodies. It's EVERYWHERE. Women are constantly indited with information about what's wrong with us; we have too much hair, we're too fat, we're too skinny, we're too tall (yes, guys have height requirements as well), we're too "frumpy," we're too prudish, we're too slutty, on and on. Tell me, how often do you shave/wax all of your hair from waist down? Men take it for granted that women do it all the time. And yet somehow a woman's standard that she doesn't like turtlenecks on a guy is awful and SOOOO strenuous? Gimme a break. I completely agree that some (keyword being some, not all) men, just like some women, have pretty ridiculous requirements while not even considering what they bring to the table. And I'm not even talking about female magazines (I think women themselves perpetuate those, IMO, because demand creates supply. If a men's mag tried putting out tons of articles on 'how to dress for your woman', they would go bankrupt, because men mostly would not be interested in buying them. Women's mags can because women by and large DO buy them.)... I'm talking about real life. I used to have a big group of male friends, and it amused me endlessly to listen to some of them talk about women. Discussing which ones wear too much makeup, which ones are fat, which ones have a hot body, which ones they would 'bang'... It made me want to go 'LOL, dude, it doesn't matter which ones you would bang. The pressing question here is which one of them would bang YOU? Because you spend 10 hours a day playing video games and you dress in dirty, sloppy, baggy clothes and smell like you haven't had a shower in days. And you live with your mom who pays for your college, which you can't even do without failing.' Interestingly enough, the ones with the most 'requirements' were also the most undesirable of the lot. I wonder if this is the case for women as well.
somedude81 Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) As I said, I tried explaining for several pages, and nothing came of it except frustration and anger on both sides. If you really want to know, go and read the posts I made in that thread again - if you are genuinely open to understanding and have questions about them, I will be happy to oblige. Otherwise, there is no point in beating a dead horse and simply repeating everything I said there. I have no intention to spend time arguing with someone whom I am trying to help. As I recall, the reason I got mad was because you and zengirl were trying to convince me that women were psychic and that I should just expect women to know I'm superficial because I'm attracted to large breasts and therefore they would never want to date me because of that. So if you or her are now thinking of bringing up the implant debacle as a way to 'prove' that women somehow know I'm superficial, you should realize how ridiculous of an example that is, unless you can actively prove that women can read my mind. Edited February 29, 2012 by somedude81
Els Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 As I recall, the reason I got mad was because you and zengirl were trying to convince me that women were psychic and that I should just expect women to know I'm superficial because I'm attracted to large breasts and therefore they would never want to date me because of that. That was not what we meant AT ALL. Several other people got the point - you didn't. As I said, I really have better things to do than to argue with someone whom I am trying to help. If you wish for help, go through the posts, try to understand them, and ask genuine questions - I'll do my best to help. If you don't, we can each go on our merry way. At this juncture, the latter sounds like the better idea.
somedude81 Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 Ah here it is, the last post in that thread. Can't link to the post for some reason so this is the thread http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/312590-what-realistic-expectations-dating I know that women can't read my mind, that's why I think it's crap that all these posters are trying to convince me that they can. Thanks for being real. No one has said women can 'read minds.' But people have intuition -- some people have stronger intuition than others. I would say that people who are less superficial/shallow generally have pretty good intuition in terms of spotting superficiality IME (not all do, but most). Women ARE superficial. (Well, everyone's superficial to some degree.) Some women are very superficial, and some women are not so superficial. Women who are not so superficial are generally (not always, but most of the time) not going to put up with a man who is superficial, whether she's super-hot or not. And ESPECIALLY if she's super hot and not superficial, she's going to be pretty aware of superficiality and avoid men who have it in the extreme (as several posters have noticed you do). That was the whole thing Elswyth was originally trying to say. Yeah, a woman can use her 'intuition' to see that I'm superficial and will then reject me because of it.
Lonely Ronin Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 Yeah, a woman can use her 'intuition' to see that I'm superficial and will then reject me because of it. That's right, stick your head in the sand like an ostrich again and keep telling yourself you know what women like, want, & think......
zengirl Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 Ah here it is, the last post in that thread. Can't link to the post for some reason so this is the thread http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/312590-what-realistic-expectations-dating Yeah, a woman can use her 'intuition' to see that I'm superficial and will then reject me because of it. Intuition is not 'psychic' power. I do not believe anyone is psychic, personally. Nor do I believe men lack intuition. Some men and some women have very low or very strong intuition---I don't think it's a gender skill. I think YOU probably have very low intuition, based on what I know of you---you seem to miss a lot of cues in social situations. Have you ever seen The Mentalist? That's an extreme version of intuition most people do not have (but they have some lesser degree of it, in variation---I would say people who are less superficial naturally have deeper intuition because they tend to LOOK DEEPER into things, which is part of intuition---it is naturally analyzing and looking deeper into activity around you). When you intuit, you are not directly USING reason, but your brain is relying on analysis and reason still---it just is not being done in a sequenced fashion. The guy on The Mentalist has extremely advanced intuition so much so that he can actually share the analysis of it because he's developed it over time (he also had a job as a phone psychic once, but he makes it clear he's not 'psychic'). The guy on Psych also uses intuition. It's just seeing things other people don't and putting it together before you have the clear logical view (the logic may come later, or it may never come, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist).
EasyHeart Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 I remember a long, drunken talk in college where my friends and I concluded that intuition was "hyper-reason". It's when your brain figures something out so quickly that you're not conscious of the thought process.
fortyninethousand322 Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 I interpret intuition to mean that feeling of indigestion you get after eating something you shouldn't have. Or, you're Brett Favre getting ready to throw into triple coverage and you think it's a good idea.
zengirl Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 I remember a long, drunken talk in college where my friends and I concluded that intuition was "hyper-reason". It's when your brain figures something out so quickly that you're not conscious of the thought process. Right. Thanks for the more succinct definition, EH.
carhill Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 I thought I had intuition but it was only a gall bladder attack which stopped once I stopped dating.
EasyHeart Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 I've always like that term, which is why I've remember it for so long. I think, too, that a lot of people who claim to be "intuitive" really aren't. The term is often used as a justification for reacting emotionally to a situation. 1
verhrzn Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 Intuition is not 'psychic' power. I do not believe anyone is psychic, personally. Nor do I believe men lack intuition. Some men and some women have very low or very strong intuition---I don't think it's a gender skill. I think YOU probably have very low intuition, based on what I know of you---you seem to miss a lot of cues in social situations. Have you ever seen The Mentalist? That's an extreme version of intuition most people do not have (but they have some lesser degree of it, in variation---I would say people who are less superficial naturally have deeper intuition because they tend to LOOK DEEPER into things, which is part of intuition---it is naturally analyzing and looking deeper into activity around you). When you intuit, you are not directly USING reason, but your brain is relying on analysis and reason still---it just is not being done in a sequenced fashion. The guy on The Mentalist has extremely advanced intuition so much so that he can actually share the analysis of it because he's developed it over time (he also had a job as a phone psychic once, but he makes it clear he's not 'psychic'). The guy on Psych also uses intuition. It's just seeing things other people don't and putting it together before you have the clear logical view (the logic may come later, or it may never come, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist). Intuition is neither mystic nor naturally-born. What "intuition" actually is, is the ability to read people's non-verbal signals, and then make reasoning conclusions based on human nature and shared experiences. Observation and making reasonable conclusions is really the key to "intuition," and with enough practice, anyone could learn it.
zengirl Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 Intuition is neither mystic nor naturally-born. What "intuition" actually is, is the ability to read people's non-verbal signals, and then make reasoning conclusions based on human nature and shared experiences. Observation and making reasonable conclusions is really the key to "intuition," and with enough practice, anyone could learn it. Yes, I believe it is a skill you can improve upon. There are people who are more naturally inclined (just like any skill) but one can 'hone' their intuition. I think you can be naturally intuitive, though, just like you can be naturally athletic or naturally mathematical or naturally verbal or whatever. All skills have both a 'natural' and a 'learned' component.
Lonely Ronin Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 What "intuition" actually is, is the ability to read people's non-verbal signals, and then make reasoning conclusions based on human nature and shared experiences. I would extend this by saying it's also the ability to interpret what people aren't saying & or physically communicating. It can be a double edge sword though, I'm unexceptionably intuitive, and have been since childhood. I pick up on the tiniest of minutia and the gears start turning trying.... It can be exhausting at times but as I've gotten older I've learned to control it, and even shut it off. My ex both loved & hated my intuition. She loved it when I could sense she was upset about something and asked her what was wrong. She hated it because I could instantly tell if something I did upset her. Since I instantly knew and wanted to talk about it, she felt like she wasn't aloud to be mad at me. IMO Intuition is my best tool when it comes to dating.
FitChick Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 I know what women like ( brad pitt like Men ) want ( money ) and think ( that they are better then all Men ) Are you a virgin?
somedude81 Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 Intuition is neither mystic nor naturally-born. What "intuition" actually is, is the ability to read people's non-verbal signals, and then make reasoning conclusions based on human nature and shared experiences. Observation and making reasonable conclusions is really the key to "intuition," and with enough practice, anyone could learn it. That actually makes some sense. I'd be super impressed if you can explain how intuition can pick up that somebody is superficial.
verhrzn Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 That actually makes some sense. I'd be super impressed if you can explain how intuition can pick up that somebody is superficial. Easy. The way their eyes move, the way their attention is diverted. Did you know that when people look at something they find attractive, their pupils dilate? And that we find people with dilated pupils more attractive? So let's say you're talking to a girl, a girl that is "average" in your esteem. Your pupils are not dilated because you are not that attracted to her. Your eyesight is probably darting around, and you're probably not using an Intimate Gaze on her. (An "Intimate Gaze" is otherwise known as the "Once Over Glance." When we find people attractive, our eye sight follows from eye > eye > crotch in continually motion. When we don't find em as sexy, in a more friendly setting, it goes eye > eye > mouth. Since guys have a smaller range of periphery vision and women are very attuned to nonverbal signals, which type of gaze the guy is using is obvious.) Then a hot woman walks by. Your eyes follow her. Your pupils dilate. You throw her the Intimate Gaze. Congratulations, you have just subconsciously signaled to Girl A that you did not find her attractive. And THAT'S only the first encounter.
somedude81 Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 Easy. The way their eyes move, the way their attention is diverted. Did you know that when people look at something they find attractive, their pupils dilate? And that we find people with dilated pupils more attractive? So let's say you're talking to a girl, a girl that is "average" in your esteem. Your pupils are not dilated because you are not that attracted to her. Your eyesight is probably darting around, and you're probably not using an Intimate Gaze on her. (An "Intimate Gaze" is otherwise known as the "Once Over Glance." When we find people attractive, our eye sight follows from eye > eye > crotch in continually motion. When we don't find em as sexy, in a more friendly setting, it goes eye > eye > mouth. Since guys have a smaller range of periphery vision and women are very attuned to nonverbal signals, which type of gaze the guy is using is obvious.) Then a hot woman walks by. Your eyes follow her. Your pupils dilate. You throw her the Intimate Gaze. Congratulations, you have just subconsciously signaled to Girl A that you did not find her attractive. And THAT'S only the first encounter. Ah ha, I've found the perfect defense... The one issue with your theory is that I would be attracted to the average girl and the fact that I was with her, even more so. Girls become more attractive to me when I'm with them one-on-one. Are my pupils dilated when I'm with her? I have no idea. A hot girl walks by, and I try my hardest not to look at her and I focus on the girl I'm with. I've gotten better at this, and my eyes really did used to wander easily.
verhrzn Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 Ah ha, I've found the perfect defense... The one issue with your theory is that I would be attracted to the average girl and the fact that I was with her, even more so. Girls become more attractive to me when I'm with them one-on-one. Are my pupils dilated when I'm with her? I have no idea. A hot girl walks by, and I try my hardest not to look at her and I focus on the girl I'm with. I've gotten better at this, and my eyes really did used to wander easily. Sorry but it's subconscious. Con men spend YEARS perfecting their subconscious behaviors and still can't totally fake it. Your eyes not wandering to the hot girl actually makes it WORSE, because then you are created strained eye contact, which is unnatural. Your smile probably becomes a little fake (as facial expressions do when we are concentrating on not doing something.) It isn't just that your eyes wander... it's where they look, how long they look, and a cluster of other signals that trigger your actual intent. And this is discussing ONLY subconscious body language. The way you talk, the things you say... they don't have to be explicit for them to be understood. You cannot fool a good observer. There really is no way around that logic.
somedude81 Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 OK and lets say I quickly glance at the pretty girl, is that enough for the other girl to determine that I'm superficial and that she will want nothing to do with me? Do you have any other examples how a woman can tell a man is superficial?
verhrzn Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 OK and lets say I quickly glance at the pretty girl, is that enough for the other girl to determine that I'm superficial and that she will want nothing to do with me? Do you have any other examples how a woman can tell a man is superficial? What I'm trying to get across to you is that you CAN'T COVER IT UP. Even if you just "glance" at the prettier girl, if a woman is intuitive (women can read body signals and subtle communication at a far higher rate than men), she can pick up on the "cluster" of nonverbal signals.... your dilating pupils, your type of Gaze, how much you flush, your eye contact (or lack thereof), etc. Some of these you MIGHT be able to change with careful study, but some of them are biologically triggered (pupils, blush) that you cannot control. Most women can tell when a man is superficial. They just can, just like a lot of women can usually tell when guys are lying. Stop arguing with, and accept it.
zengirl Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 SD, if you think you can train yourself to not 'act' superficial and fool people, it probably won't happen. Especially not with women who value character and personality---a high degree of superficiality is one of the easiest character flaws to see. Also: Appreciating beauty is not superficial in and of itself, and many women like to be appreciated for their beauty and like men who can appreciate beauty (beauty and hotness are not exactly synonymous, of course, but sometimes they are similar). Superficiality is evident in the way you view the world. I'm not sure if you hit on a stranger, if she'd immediately know if you were superficial (really depends on who she is), but since you don't hit on strangers, I'm quite sure by the time a girl has spent a little time with you, she realizes this about you, whether she can verbalize it or not as superficiality. Of course, plenty of women don't care about superficiality. . . but they're generally women who are superficial. So, either get hotter or build better character or stay miserable; that's life. I would say most superficial people are self-absorbed. Most unsuccessful superficial people who are self-absorbed are miserable. The easiest way to become more happy is to broaden yourself to include more depth, pay less attention to your self, and so forth. I don't think all superficial people are miserable or that it is necessarily 'evil' or 'bad' to be superficial. I do think most superficial people are going to be miserable if they don't have a fair degree of ease in success with such things---they simply lack the character to deal with failure in a positive and productive way. Granted, previously superficial often DO develop character during hardship (that's a standard trope, but it is true in life).
somedude81 Posted February 29, 2012 Posted February 29, 2012 What I'm trying to get across to you is that you CAN'T COVER IT UP. Even if you just "glance" at the prettier girl, if a woman is intuitive (women can read body signals and subtle communication at a far higher rate than men), she can pick up on the "cluster" of nonverbal signals.... your dilating pupils, your type of Gaze, how much you flush, your eye contact (or lack thereof), etc. Some of these you MIGHT be able to change with careful study, but some of them are biologically triggered (pupils, blush) that you cannot control. Most women can tell when a man is superficial. They just can, just like a lot of women can usually tell when guys are lying. Stop arguing with, and accept it. No, I'm not trying to argue about it. At this point I'd be more interested in why a girl would get upset if I subconsciously look at another. A lingering gaze I could understand.
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