zengirl Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I wouldn't say it's 'part of culture' per se - I'm not sure about the % of people who refuse that, and whether or not they are the majority. But it does seem to be a growing trend. Granted, my main source of knowledge of American dating culture comes from this site, so I could be wrong. I definitely don't know many people IRL at all who are that way, but I thought it was because I come from an Asian culture. Most American dating culture is not properly reflected on this site IMO. I've lived in Asian countries and have Japanese family, and I agree Asian cultural practice is different (well, there are many different Asian cultures, but even as an amalgamation) from Western dating culture. I think this site represents a lot of ideas that real people do have, but many aspects get over exaggerated. But I think you can even look at TV shows or movies or whatnot to see that Americans understand that while dating your friends can get messy (and it can!) that you should be friends with the person you marry, even if it was after dating. It's a common theme.
ffw Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Friendship is is a warm companionship; love adds the physical & sexual element to it. That's why there is a say "Love is a friendship set on fire". 3
xxoo Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 No wedding rings. What do you think about that? I rarely wear mine
carhill Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 "4. What is your advice to someone who is trying to keep the faith that Mr. Right is really out there? Zelmyra: Mine was just around the corner!" "14. What’s the one thing you have in common that transcends everything else? We are both Christians & believe in God.Marriage is a commitment to the Lord.We pray with & for each other every day." So, we have Christians who lived around the corner from each other and got married at 16 (her) and 19 (him). What are the chances, in that time, that they didn't know each other and/or weren't friends through social and/or religious interaction? Pretty low. Ah, here's the answer: "2. How did you know your spouse was the right one for you? We grew up together & were best friends before we married." All at the ripe young age of prior to 16 and 19. Times have changed. Is evolution working?
carhill Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 What do you think about that? I rarely wear mine They didn't have any jewelry on in their pictures, although dressed impeccably. Perhaps that's their 'style'. Most folks around my neck of the woods, whether 20 or 80, wear their rings if they're married. My mom did, even after dad died, for about twenty years until I took them after she got demented.
xxoo Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 They didn't have any jewelry on in their pictures, although dressed impeccably. Perhaps that's their 'style'. Most folks around my neck of the woods, whether 20 or 80, wear their rings if they're married. My mom did, even after dad died, for about twenty years until I took them after she got demented. She's wearing earrings. I checked for them when you pointed out no rings
KathyM Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I think this is really the key Divorce is a lot more 'thinkable' now than it was before, and this easily changes relationship dynamics. Yes, a lot of people go into marriage now with the idea that if it doesn't work out, they can always get a divorce. Then, of course, when the going gets rough, and it always does, they bail. Going into marriage thinking that divorce is not an option is the best way to make sure you stay married. I vowed to my husband at our wedding that I would never leave him, and I have lived up to that promise. I consider infidelity and physical abuse as the only reason for divorce, so that is why I stuck it out when most others in my position would have bailed. I never considered marriage to be only for the good times, and believe that you work on whatever issues are causing problems in your marriage, and you weather the storms in life together.
carhill Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 She's wearing earrings. I checked for them when you pointed out no rings Sorry, missed that. I was looking at them holding hands.
xxoo Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I think this kind of love story was always rare. That's why it is so special. How many of their peers do you think made it til-death-do-us-part happily? Both sets of my grandparents were/are married "til death". But only one set actually had a true love story. The other set stayed together until he died in his 70s, but weren't any example of a wonderful marriage. 1
zengirl Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I don't think divorce is the bogeyman some folks do. My parents great marriage was made possible by their divorces and I think it's kept strong and engaging by the idea that if it is ever more painful in the long run to be married than divorced they can get divorced. It gives them an incentive to work at their marriage and keep it strong. It really depends on how you view divorce. Granted, they both had infidelity (their partners cheated) in their previous marriages, so some folks would give them a pass, but it wasn't the infidelity in either case (and they both recognize that) which doomed the marriage---it was selecting an incompatible partner and not working on the marriage. And getting married too young. I appreciate that the couple in the article is going to have an oldfashioned Christian POV about it, and it's lovely that they ARE still in love. But many couples (intact marriages) in that situation are not happy, friends, or in love. My mother's parents and my bio-father's parents both had TERRIBLE marriages where they were basically strangers in the same house by the time I knew them. My stepdad's parents had a GREAT marriage. If you get married that young, I think it's a bit luck of the draw is all. You don't know yourself yet. My stepdad's parents actually WERE separated for a time and did not divorce because they dated again and decided to remain together. I think there's something very powerful about acknowledging their are other options and choosing your partner anyway because you can truly make each other happier together than you would be apart. YMMV, of course.
FitChick Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 They didn't have any jewelry on in their pictures, although dressed impeccably. Perhaps that's their 'style'. Most folks around my neck of the woods, whether 20 or 80, wear their rings if they're married. My mom did, even after dad died, for about twenty years until I took them after she got demented. My grandmother stopped wearing any rings because she got arthritis in her hands and it was too painful.
KathyM Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I think this kind of love story was always rare. That's why it is so special. How many of their peers do you think made it til-death-do-us-part happily? Both sets of my grandparents were/are married "til death". But only one set actually had a true love story. The other set stayed together until he died in his 70s, but weren't any example of a wonderful marriage. A lot of people in my life have been married to the same person for life, and were happy in their marriages. Both sets of grandparents stayed married to the same person for life. My parents stayed together for life until my father passed away a couple of years ago. I have eight aunts and uncles, six of whom stayed married for life with the other two divorcing because of infidelity. Marriage and commitment is valued in my family. They've all had issues and problems that came up in their marriage, but they stuck it out, and their marriages were, for the most part, happy ones.
Ranchero44 Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 What a fantastic and interesting thread! After reading every word of every post (including the original article), this is my two cents: 1. Marriages Based on Friendship/Being Each Other's Best Friend To me, it seems counterintuitive that a good marriage or LTR should be based on anything else! How many times have I heard someone lament, during the course of a particularly painful and nasty breakup, "That's not how he/she would treat a FRIEND!" The foundational friendship, I believe is non-negotiable. I recently posted an anecdotal story in another thread about my sister falling in love with her husband after a long period of putting him in the "friend zone". One person cautioned, later in the thread, that stories like mine are "dangerous" because they encourage hope. But it has been my overwhelming and consistent experience that falling in love with a friend, for BOTH genders, happens more often than not. How often does some older mentor/family member/friend wink at you and say, "They always start out as friends"? There is a deep and driving wisdom in the collective unconscious that knows that the truest love emerges and blossoms from friendship. I realize this doesn't always happen; I agree with those who posted before me who said the term "friend" can be used as a ruse for "I am not sexually attracted to you." And one of the reasons the friendship is so indispensable to the marriage is because SEXUAL PASSION FADES. It always does!!!!!!! Always. Now, I believe it may flare again periodically throughout the life of the marriage, but the sexual flame is not going to blaze non-stop for 85 years. It's just not. It continually blows me away how our culture treats sex and sexual passion as the Holy Grail. You are supposed to feel it ALL THE TIME for your mate, you are supposed to feel it RIGHT AWAY when you meet someone, it should NEVER, EVER go away, even for a little while, say, after the birth of a child. American culture really shoves a bill of goods down our throats when it comes to placing a premium on sexual passion; our society would have us believe that we bond because of SEX, not FRIENDSHIP, when, as my abundant experience with meeting and having beautiful couples in my life has shown, it is the exact opposite. But, hey, this is the culture that will use sex on TV to sell a washing machine. 2. Infidelity as a Grounds for Divorce I have seen many, many marriages survive infidelity and grow stronger because of it. I don't believe infidelity is an immediate grounds for the dissolution of the marriage. I think this has to be puzzled out on a case-by-case basis; if your wife/husband cheated once, it might be a different story than being married to a philanderer. My point is, So what if this 104-year-old man cheated on his wife, or vice versa? The love for each other is clearly shining through in their faces, as Elswyth pointed out on her first post. People screw up sometimes. One of the grounding principles of any good marriage is forgiveness. My great-grandfather had multiple affairs, and at one point, family legend has it that my great-grandmother was ready to leave him. He changed his ways, she stayed, and on the day of her death he leaned in to give her a kiss in her casket and cried, "This is the worst day of my life." Heartbroken, he died six months later. Theirs was a love story. Once again, people screw up. Love is mysterious; true love can survive a lot of setbacks. Don't get me started on physical violence, though. That should be a no-brainer. 3. The Magic of a Stranger's Story I am moved by stories like this all the time. Where would we all be without a little magic, a little restoration of our belief in love? We all need to believe in love and magic, IMO. Ultimately, letting a story like this pierce your heart restores your faith. I don't think anyone who isn't touched is necessarily cold-hearted, but, for me, I need to have a sense of wonder about life. As one person pointed out, stories like this are precious and rare. How awesome that we all got to read this today.
Negative Nancy Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 This is great but marriages like this are a dying breed. Sadly I agree.
Author Els Posted February 24, 2012 Author Posted February 24, 2012 What a fantastic and interesting thread! After reading every word of every post (including the original article), this is my two cents: 1. Marriages Based on Friendship/Being Each Other's Best Friend To me, it seems counterintuitive that a good marriage or LTR should be based on anything else! How many times have I heard someone lament, during the course of a particularly painful and nasty breakup, "That's not how he/she would treat a FRIEND!" The foundational friendship, I believe is non-negotiable. I recently posted an anecdotal story in another thread about my sister falling in love with her husband after a long period of putting him in the "friend zone". One person cautioned, later in the thread, that stories like mine are "dangerous" because they encourage hope. But it has been my overwhelming and consistent experience that falling in love with a friend, for BOTH genders, happens more often than not. How often does some older mentor/family member/friend wink at you and say, "They always start out as friends"? There is a deep and driving wisdom in the collective unconscious that knows that the truest love emerges and blossoms from friendship. I realize this doesn't always happen; I agree with those who posted before me who said the term "friend" can be used as a ruse for "I am not sexually attracted to you." And one of the reasons the friendship is so indispensable to the marriage is because SEXUAL PASSION FADES. It always does!!!!!!! Always. Now, I believe it may flare again periodically throughout the life of the marriage, but the sexual flame is not going to blaze non-stop for 85 years. It's just not. It continually blows me away how our culture treats sex and sexual passion as the Holy Grail. You are supposed to feel it ALL THE TIME for your mate, you are supposed to feel it RIGHT AWAY when you meet someone, it should NEVER, EVER go away, even for a little while, say, after the birth of a child. American culture really shoves a bill of goods down our throats when it comes to placing a premium on sexual passion; our society would have us believe that we bond because of SEX, not FRIENDSHIP, when, as my abundant experience with meeting and having beautiful couples in my life has shown, it is the exact opposite. But, hey, this is the culture that will use sex on TV to sell a washing machine. I completely agree, especially with the bolded. I'm sure anyone who has maintained a successful LTR knows that sexual passion ebbs and flows, and that the pure intensity found in the honeymoon phase isn't sustainable ALL the time - as long as both partners are still generally attracted to one another and make the effort to be intimate, that should be all that matters in the sexual department. The friendship formed with the person, however - the mental and emotional connection that you make - is what carries you through those times. That is why I always go when the majority of one's requirements for a partner, or the most important, are physical attributes. When the only good thing that a man can say about his partner is, 'Jesus, she's SMOKING hot!', I know that these two are unlikely to be cut out for a LTR. 2. Infidelity as a Grounds for Divorce I have seen many, many marriages survive infidelity and grow stronger because of it. I don't believe infidelity is an immediate grounds for the dissolution of the marriage. I think this has to be puzzled out on a case-by-case basis; if your wife/husband cheated once, it might be a different story than being married to a philanderer. My point is, So what if this 104-year-old man cheated on his wife, or vice versa? The love for each other is clearly shining through in their faces, as Elswyth pointed out on her first post. People screw up sometimes. One of the grounding principles of any good marriage is forgiveness. My great-grandfather had multiple affairs, and at one point, family legend has it that my great-grandmother was ready to leave him. He changed his ways, she stayed, and on the day of her death he leaned in to give her a kiss in her casket and cried, "This is the worst day of my life." Heartbroken, he died six months later. Theirs was a love story. Once again, people screw up. Love is mysterious; true love can survive a lot of setbacks. Don't get me started on physical violence, though. That should be a no-brainer. We will have to agree to disagree on this. I think that whether or not someone stays through infidelity depends on many personal factors, that we cannot begin to guess. However, I find it amusing that a few other posters (not you) immediately assume that infidelity MUST have been present, as if the alternative were impossible. Fortunately for their spouses, they have no interest in being in a LTR. 3. The Magic of a Stranger's Story I am moved by stories like this all the time. Where would we all be without a little magic, a little restoration of our belief in love? We all need to believe in love and magic, IMO. Ultimately, letting a story like this pierce your heart restores your faith. I don't think anyone who isn't touched is necessarily cold-hearted, but, for me, I need to have a sense of wonder about life. As one person pointed out, stories like this are precious and rare. How awesome that we all got to read this today. Aww, I'm glad the story was able to make you feel that, today. Pragmatically, I know that any story brought to us by the media might not be what it seems. The handicapped person who accomplished an Olympic medal might have cheated or been pressured into it by their family. The woman from a past of sexual abuse who overcame all odds to become successful in life and love might be just faking it and crying inside. And yes, stories of happy marriages might be glossing over incidents of infidelity. But what sort of life is that, to only see the suspicious and negative in everything brought before oneself, and not the possible good? Not the sort of life I want, that is for certain. Sadly I agree. Not touching in the least. Who knows, maybe he cheated on her throughout the marriage or her on him? Maybe he beat her up? Just because you stayed together 80 plus years doesn't mean it was good; some people choose to stay in marriages when they are abused or cheated on. Sorry; I am not one of those sentimental and romantic women who get teary eyed and emotional from other people's lives; it doesn't affect me. Whoopdeedoo; so you get to spend your old age with another person. Woopdeedoo. I have no problem spending mines alone. Oh, hey, NN and Breals, wondered when you gals would pop by. Meet your new friend, Emilia! I always knew you three would get along swimmingly.
zengirl Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) And one of the reasons the friendship is so indispensable to the marriage is because SEXUAL PASSION FADES. It always does!!!!!!! Always. Now, I believe it may flare again periodically throughout the life of the marriage, but the sexual flame is not going to blaze non-stop for 85 years. It's just not. It continually blows me away how our culture treats sex and sexual passion as the Holy Grail. You are supposed to feel it ALL THE TIME for your mate, you are supposed to feel it RIGHT AWAY when you meet someone, it should NEVER, EVER go away, even for a little while, say, after the birth of a child. American culture really shoves a bill of goods down our throats when it comes to placing a premium on sexual passion; our society would have us believe that we bond because of SEX, not FRIENDSHIP, Interesting thoughts. I don't know if I agree that American culture does that. I've never experienced that -- the selling washing machines with sex, sure, but when people actually think/talk about marriage, even in fiction I've read/watched, I don't think there is any reduced emphasis on friendship and a common theme is that sexual spark will naturally fade and must be rekindled periodically. I do think American culture places a premium on being able to rekindle sexual spark with your mate, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Even most sitcoms show that rekindling as an active process, rather than something that's always there. I would say many people who are not fit for marriage focus more on sexual spark, yes. But they. . . aren't fit for marriage. The problem is marriage has evolved past those people. Those people used to still get married, and the men either had affairs or lost themselves in work or both, depending on how lucky they could get, and the women took pills and were nervous, unhappy housewives because they had no choice, and people stayed married because they were supposed to. Now, people aren't trapped, which is a GOOD thing, but it means many, many people who are not the marrying kind should probably just not get married. 2. Infidelity as a Grounds for Divorce I have seen many, many marriages survive infidelity and grow stronger because of it. I don't believe infidelity is an immediate grounds for the dissolution of the marriage. I think this has to be puzzled out on a case-by-case basis; if your wife/husband cheated once, it might be a different story than being married to a philanderer. I don't disagree with you that couples can get through infidelity. I know couples that can as well. Personally, I think the only grounds for divorce is perpetuated unhappiness. If you are certain your marriage is making you more unhappy than a divorce would, and will continue to, and is not healthy or supporting your life in a positive way, then you should consider divorce (note: I'm not talking unhappiness "in the moment" but sustained unhappiness that you are unable to remedy within the marriage). Infidelity can certainly either CAUSE that or be a clear SYMPTOM of it---generally, it's a symptom, really---and it's an easy out to point to and play the victim if you're the one cheated on is all, I think. People have trouble honesty and maturely ending a marriage, which is why there are so few amicable divorces. I actually admire amicable divorces a lot, almost as much as I admire 85 year long marriages, really. The fact that two people loved each other, truly couldn't make it work, and could still be amicable and kind with one another is very touching to me. But I think we make amicable divorces almost impossible by pretending divorce is a societal evil. It's not. It's a tool we created when we realized marriage, as a system, was imperfect, especially since people often entered into it very young and without a lot of choices. Even today, marriage is socialized into kids far too much as a "good" thing. I wish we'd start out right away telling everyone, "Marriage may not be for you," and I think that'd lead to less divorce. I don't think more unhappy and kept together marriages are the answer. Edited February 24, 2012 by zengirl
Mrlonelyone Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 On the whole dating a friend issue. My best relationships have always been with friends. I am primarily physically attracted to men and have most of my experience with men, but I have been interested in dating and did date a handfull of women. Since womens bodies aren't what do it for me getting to know and like them via friendship is the only way that happens. Here is my personal observation. The men I dated were all very happy to be dating someone they were friends with. They felt at ease they felt like they were with someone who already liked them. The men all saw that we were friends and lovers as a positive. Of the five women I have been interested in dating in my life who were friends. One I was on and off with for years. Two would at least try it with me. The last one frankly would act like they were into it if no one was looking. All of them had issues with the fact we were friends first. It was like a negative to them. You could argue that my sample is biased since I am basically attracted to any hot guy but only to certain artsy sciency creative type women. (Those are also nice in a man but not really needed you know what I mean.) That's just been my experience. The bottom line: In my experience more men still think like the guy in that article about what makes a good relationship, being good friends sexual attraction and getting along. While more women seem to want romance novel /soap opera style love at first sight and constant passion, drama etc. One more thing: Who initiates the divorce more often, the wife or the husband? A study reported in the American Law and Economics Review in 2000, "These Boots Are Made for Walking: Why Most Divorce Filers are Women" also showed that more recently, women file more than two-thirds of divorce cases in the US. Even though the individual states’ data vary somewhat and the numbers have fluctuated over time, throughout most of the 19th century about 60 percent of divorce filings were by women. Moreover, in some of the states where no-fault divorce was introduced, over 70 percent of the divorce filings were by women. Among college-educated couples, the percentage of divorces initiated by wives is a whopping 90 percent.
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