Els Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 The curious thing about this thread is that almost all of the male respondents said 'yes' while the majority of female respondents claimed that their career success has caused them relationship trouble at one time or another. I'm trying to decide whether this is because of the sample bias in LS, or the fact that men and women have slightly different notions of what being 'independent' means. My experience has been that men generally want to feel needed in some aspects, but also want the woman to be reasonably independent, ie not depend on him for EVERYthing. A balance of sorts. Which aspects differ depending on the individual man - some want a woman with equal earning capacity but who is still physically weaker, and needs him to help her with physical stuff. On the other hand, some like to be the breadwinner as well. And so on and so forth.
denise_xo Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 My experience has been that men generally want to feel needed in some aspects, but also want the woman to be reasonably independent, ie not depend on him for EVERYthing. A balance of sorts. Which aspects differ depending on the individual man - some want a woman with equal earning capacity but who is still physically weaker, and needs him to help her with physical stuff. On the other hand, some like to be the breadwinner as well. And so on and so forth. I think my H places more emphasis on being 'wanted' than 'needed'. But I've never asked him about it in that way, that's just my interpretation. I know he also wants to feel that he is able to support me if I experience challenges, but I'm not sure it translates into him wanting me to need him in a more 'dependent' kind of way.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 In some respects I am independent and in other respects I am not. But I am not ashamed for the ways that I am not independent. I think that being independent CAN be a positive but somewhere along the way's it's crossed a line and is being used as a means to not be vulnerable with people. If it wasn't for the people in my life that loved me, I wouldn't be who I am and where I am. It's becaue of these people and how they helped me in life, that I was able to be who I am. So in that context, I am not independent. I need relationships with people. This is ultimately what is most important to me. How healthy my relationships are. My Mom, my Dady, my brother and my other family and friends have all added something to my life that I otherwise couldn't have done by myself. They have made my life richer in many different ways. And because of that, I am not an independent person. And I know the right man will have the same affect on my life. I will be a better person for his relationship with me. And I will need him sometimes and depend on him because I simply can't live in this world and do it "all" alone. I don't want to be independent. People make my life more rich. And sometimes I need them and sometimes they need me. 2
Emilia Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 In some respects I am independent and in other respects I am not. But I am not ashamed for the ways that I am not independent. I think that being independent CAN be a positive but somewhere along the way's it's crossed a line and is being used as a means to not be vulnerable with people. If it wasn't for the people in my life that loved me, I wouldn't be who I am and where I am. It's becaue of these people and how they helped me in life, that I was able to be who I am. So in that context, I am not independent. I need relationships with people. This is ultimately what is most important to me. How healthy my relationships are. My Mom, my Dady, my brother and my other family and friends have all added something to my life that I otherwise couldn't have done by myself. They have made my life richer in many different ways. And because of that, I am not an independent person. And I know the right man will have the same affect on my life. I will be a better person for his relationship with me. And I will need him sometimes and depend on him because I simply can't live in this world and do it "all" alone. I don't want to be independent. People make my life more rich. And sometimes I need them and sometimes they need me. How do you mean? I think many of us don't equate independent with insular.
denise_xo Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 How do you mean? I think many of us don't equate independent with insular. Yes, that's definitely not what I put into the concept. No one is insular. That's just empirical reality.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 How do you mean? I think many of us don't equate independent with insular. Don't we though? There is this interesting social belief that I think is a by-product of a "me" culture. It's all about "me" and how "independent" I am. It's the attitude of, "I might have friends and famiy but I am fine on my own and everything I accomplished is all because of me, me, me." Which very well may be true in a face value way. But I attribute a lot more credit to the people that have come into my life and changed it then that. From the teacher that took it upon herself to give me free one on one time when I was younger and learning to read and really struggling compared to my peers. To my parents that have given me so much more then I could ever repay. To my brother who took the time to teach me to drive and give me advice about men and relationships. To my best friend that I could tell my darkest fears to and not be humilated for it. To my first boss that took a chance on me despite not having barely any experience. From the woman I use to babysit for that gave helped me decide where I wanted to go from college to work. Without these people, I might have been avery different person. They have shapped and helped me in my life. Not everything accomplished in my life is just because of things I have done. And for this reason, I am not an independent person. Im not sure if this explanation gives what I am trying to get across justice. I just see a thing for people eager to prove their independence. It's either and over compensation thing or an ego thing. Some independence certainly is a good thing and people should be proud of what they accomplish. But I know for me, that I need people in my life. They make me a better person. And not just for my own success but how I relate to others as well. When I was younger and began dating, I was a lot more me centered. But relationships with men have taught me alot about how to be more vunlerable, open, communitive and compromising. Those things can still be struggles but they are also things I have been taught from my relationships. I think independence can be a positive. But I think today we over compensate with ideals of "independence" in an order to either prove ourselves or focus on an ego driveness. I also look at other countries and their families seem to be all about helping each other and grandparents living with parents and children and aunts and uncles all under the same house. It's intersting how different our view here in America is about independence vs other countries. I'm not saying indepedence is wrong. Just that there sometimes seems like an extreme pride in indepedence.
Emilia Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Don't we though? There is this interesting social belief that I think is a by-product of a "me" culture. It's all about "me" and how "independent" I am. It's the attitude of, "I might have friends and famiy but I am fine on my own and everything I accomplished is all because of me, me, me." Which very well may be true in a face value way. But I attribute a lot more credit to the people that have come into my life and changed it then that. From the teacher that took it upon herself to give me free one on one time when I was younger and learning to read and really struggling compared to my peers. To my parents that have given me so much more then I could ever repay. To my brother who took the time to teach me to drive and give me advice about men and relationships. To my best friend that I could tell my darkest fears to and not be humilated for it. To my first boss that took a chance on me despite not having barely any experience. From the woman I use to babysit for that gave helped me decide where I wanted to go from college to work. Without these people, I might have been avery different person. They have shapped and helped me in my life. Not everything accomplished in my life is just because of things I have done. And for this reason, I am not an independent person. Im not sure if this explanation gives what I am trying to get across justice. I just see a thing for people eager to prove their independence. It's either and over compensation thing or an ego thing. Some independence certainly is a good thing and people should be proud of what they accomplish. But I know for me, that I need people in my life. They make me a better person. And not just for my own success but how I relate to others as well. When I was younger and began dating, I was a lot more me centered. But relationships with men have taught me alot about how to be more vunlerable, open, communitive and compromising. Those things can still be struggles but they are also things I have been taught from my relationships. I think independence can be a positive. But I think today we over compensate with ideals of "independence" in an order to either prove ourselves or focus on an ego driveness. I also look at other countries and their families seem to be all about helping each other and grandparents living with parents and children and aunts and uncles all under the same house. It's intersting how different our view here in America is about independence vs other countries. I'm not saying indepedence is wrong. Just that there sometimes seems like an extreme pride in indepedence. First of all, I have experience of what I highlighted in bold and in most cases it's not people's preferences but social and local customs. In countries like India or Pakistan a young bridge moves in with her husband and in-laws and she takes duties over from her mother-in-law. In places like poorer parts of South Asia, in Afghanistan, etc they treat her like a slave because women have no value in society. I dated an Indian guy last year and the pressure on him to return to India, to marry and to move back home (he has lived in the UK for 4 years now) was enormous. You underestimate the guilt placed on children in societies like that. As to your more general point: no, I don't think independence means being isolated from people emotionally. Physically perhaps in the sense that I can do most of my DIY, fix stuff in general, own my flat, financially independent, etc but emotionally I rely on my sister, my close friends and the men I date. There is the expression 'No man is an island' and I completely agree with that.
denise_xo Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) My money is my money and his money is his money. I would never consult a man before spending $500 of my own money on shoes. However; I pay for myself 50 percent exactly. A guy's money is not my money; I don't want $1 of it. I've never had an ex bf consult me when spending over $500 of his own money on things for himself and vice versa when living together. No one should consult anyone unless they are married. I would definitely consult a partner I was living with if I were to spend 500 dollars on something (that's a fair amount of money for me). From my perspective, if I live with someone my commitment is of a nature where some consultation on financial matters is part of the package. Taking shared financial decisions increases a sense of partnership for me. It also signifies that we are a 'we' not just 'I' and 'you'. At the end of the day, our shared opportunities will also be decided be our future, shared pool of money, so it's a good way of getting to know each other's attitudes to spending and finances. Having shared attitudes to the latter is extremely important in order for a relationship to work long term. Edited February 21, 2012 by denise_xo 1
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 First of all, I have experience of what I highlighted in bold and in most cases it's not people's preferences but social and local customs. In countries like India or Pakistan a young bridge moves in with her husband and in-laws and she takes duties over from her mother-in-law. In places like poorer parts of South Asia, in Afghanistan, etc they treat her like a slave because women have no value in society. I dated an Indian guy last year and the pressure on him to return to India, to marry and to move back home (he has lived in the UK for 4 years now) was enormous. You underestimate the guilt placed on children in societies like that. As to your more general point: no, I don't think independence means being isolated from people emotionally. Physically perhaps in the sense that I can do most of my DIY, fix stuff in general, own my flat, financially independent, etc but emotionally I rely on my sister, my close friends and the men I date. There is the expression 'No man is an island' and I completely agree with that. No I don't underestimate anything. I have no doubt that guilt happens within American AND foreign families. I also have personal experience with this and know of families that happily coexist together in other countries. I also see nothing wrong with leaning on people to help you phyiscally either. As long as you aren't taken advantage of them. I can't do everything on my own and I am not afraid or ashamed to admit that. Not everyone has the same set of skills. But as long as you are contributing to your relationships and not taking advantage of someone else and offering what you can offer, I see no issue. I'm not sure what you take issue with with my comment. It's how I see things. No one said it's how you had to see them.
Emilia Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 No I don't underestimate anything. I have no doubt that guilt happens within American AND foreign families. I also have personal experience with this and know of families that happily coexist together in other countries. I also see nothing wrong with leaning on people to help you phyiscally either. As long as you aren't taken advantage of them. I can't do everything on my own and I am not afraid or ashamed to admit that. Not everyone has the same set of skills. But as long as you are contributing to your relationships and not taking advantage of someone else and offering what you can offer, I see no issue. I'm not sure what you take issue with with my comment. It's how I see things. No one said it's how you had to see them. You seemed to be implying in your pervious posts that people who take pride in their independence are also emotionally isolated. No there isn't anything wrong with getting help. I'm not an electrician, if I tried to rewire my flat, someone would get electrocuted. However, I'm not a hopeless person either, I don't have to keep asking for help all the time. In fact I don't, most of the time because I enjoy learning how to fix stuff. Fixing stuff - instead of buying new - is becoming a lost art as carhill would probably agree.
denise_xo Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 When I was living with my ex I was making a ton of money and $500 was not a big deal to me. Besides, I was paying all the bills and basically supporting him so I felt no need to ever consult him about spending my money. He never consulted with me either (he was spending tons of money on stuff for himself but not paying bills). I don't ever plan on living with someone else in the future ever again so it's not an issue. I don't plan to be in a serious relationship in the future. My money is my money and his is his (whoever I chose to date casually). Trust me, I make plenty of money. I don't need $1 from a man. He can keep all of his. I see. I have also been the breadwinner/ provided the sole income in a relationship, but I still considered financial decisions to be shared and I would consult with my partner on any major purchase (500 would be major for me). It's not that I consider 'his money' to be 'my money'. I have been brought up to be financially independent, and always have been, so I don't expect a man to provide for me. But I do expect financial decisions to be discussed in a relationship, but that's just my personal preference.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 You seemed to be implying in your pervious posts that people who take pride in their independence are also emotionally isolated. No there isn't anything wrong with getting help. I'm not an electrician, if I tried to rewire my flat, someone would get electrocuted. However, I'm not a hopeless person either, I don't have to keep asking for help all the time. In fact I don't, most of the time because I enjoy learning how to fix stuff. Fixing stuff - instead of buying new - is becoming a lost art as carhill would probably agree. Do you notice how often you tell me what I "seem" and "imply"? Goodness. I said in that very thread that being independent was a good thing. But like with everything else, there are extremes. I never once made the all inclusive comment that people who take pride in their independence are emotionally isolated. You simply have your opinion and I have mine. I don't feel the need to railroad you for yours. Please extend the same curtesty. And if you are confused by anything I say, ask like you did above. Don't infer and attach commentary to my posts that don't exist. Try having a conversation with me, not a confrontation. We can agree to disagree too without it having to be a confrontation as well.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 I love being independent and being free and I consider myself one of the most independent women I know. Many people are weak and need to depend on friends or family emotionally but I know that I can get by completely on my own with no safety net. There is nothing I take more pride in than that. It's all about what you are comfortable with. It's great that your independent. But I do not consider it a weakness to depend on family and friends. I consider it a privilage. That's what relationships are about to me. Give and take. I can offer my family and friends things and they do the same. And sometimes it's in the form of emotional support and sometimes its a physical support. Such as taking care of my dog when I am out of town or picking me up when my car breaks down. I guess for me, at the end of the day, I think what matters most is how we treat others and what we do for others that go beyond our own needs.
Sanman Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 If it's her money why the hell would you have to say anything on how much money she spends on a pair of shoes??? She earned that money so she decides what she spends it on! Would you want your woman to tell you that you can't buy that fancy i-phone or nice car with your money? I have a very good salary and there is no hair on my hair that thinks about ever having a joint bank account with my partner. I am willing to take the risk that my heart gets broken, but not my bank account! Of course, if me and my partner decide on a shared project like buying a house, the bulk of my money will go to that. With everything on paper of course. Well, my gf and I consult each other on major purchases (anything over ~$200) and while neither of us need permission, we like to get the other person's opinion. She has expensive shoes that she wants and I have other toys I would like. However, we both want to get married and buy a house in the next few years, so we both are trying to save money. If you want to keep your money as yours that is fine. However, I hope you do not expect a guy like me to pay for more than my share. I also hope that you don't mind me doing what I want with my money. You buy your shoes and I will buy my fancy cars. If that means I don't want to save for the house you want then tough...it is my money and I can do what I want. As Woggle alluded, my big problem is that women want their money to be independent, but want me to pay for vacations, all the groceries, dinners (more than half), and other things I don't want to spend my (not our) money on. Oh babe, you want to try that fancy place for dinner? Not my thing, but you are welcome to treat me!
AD1980 Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 I dont understand men who are threatend by this and act like they would rather be with a women whos with him just because he can buy her things I guess some people want that control
norajane Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 As to your more general point: no, I don't think independence means being isolated from people emotionally. Physically perhaps in the sense that I can do most of my DIY, fix stuff in general, own my flat, financially independent, etc but emotionally I rely on my sister, my close friends and the men I date. There is the expression 'No man is an island' and I completely agree with that. I agree. Independence doesn't mean you don't have close relationships nor that you never need or want support. Example: Washing machine explodes all over the floor. Independent and isolated: Oh, no! Better clean this up and call for repairs. End of story. Independent and emotionally involved with someone: Oh, no! Better clean this up and call for repairs. Later..."honey, the washer exploded all over the floor and it took forever to deal with the mess, I'm all stressed out now. How about if we go out to dinner so I can chill out (and eventually laugh about it)?" Needy: Oh, no! What do I do! Oh, no! "Honey, the washer exploded and I don't know what to dooooo! Drop everything and come help meeeeee! what do I doooooo?! Help meeeee! Maybe not the best example, but I do see significant differences and I think they play out this way in lots of everyday matters.
Ruby Slippers Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Most women i've met that do well are used to a lifestyle I can't keep up with even if we were splitting the check & aren't interested in me because of that. But I wouldn't be intimidated by one if she really wanted to date. Well, I'm not materialistic in the slightest. I have to force myself to spend money on "nice" clothes, now that I'm rubbing elbows with business owners who have all the clothes and trappings. I don't like spending money on superficial things, and would rather save for a classical guitar, fun trip, my future home, or something more meaningful and memorable. I think spending more than $200 on a pair of shoes is ridiculous and a total waste of money. I spent most of my childhood poor and have worked extremely hard to get to where I am now. It's a shame that few men recognize and appreciate that. I guess I'd do better with men if I were still struggling and "needed" them for their money. The curious thing about this thread is that almost all of the male respondents said 'yes' while the majority of female respondents claimed that their career success has caused them relationship trouble at one time or another. This is another time when you need to believe what they do, not what they say. It reminds me of when I was in high school. My male friends told me they liked smart girls, but when I was myself and showed my smarts, they treated me like a friend. When I pretended to be dumb and acted giggly and girly, they got all flirty and sexy with me. But I don't see the point in pretending to be someone I'm not. If a guy doesn't like me as is, there's no point in getting involved. 1
Woggle Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 It's not that men don't like women who can take care of themselves but some male bashers have hijacked the whole concept to make men out to be useless and disposable. An ideal woman is one who very much can hold her own but also values the relationship very much. 1
Sanman Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Also, consulting about spending money is only a concern if parties are living together. If just dating then heck no; what you spend your own money on is no one's concern. That is a very limited view of things and can limit how far a relationship goes. What if you are saving for a place to live together? What if one of you must sacrifice job opportunities to be near the other? Is it fair for me to take a $10k pay cut to move down to where my gf is if it is just her money or should I just break up with her if a more lucrative job opportunity arises?
kaylan Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 There are a few recent topics regarding people who "fail to launch".. I am actually curious as to whether the opposite is also a turn off. If a woman is able to pay off a mortgage, car, bills, 50/50 in relationships etc (I think sum it up quite nicely!) is this a turn off for men? I was having this debate with a friend of mine a while back, and he was of the opinion that it's a turn off if a woman is too independent. He said that most men like to feel like they are needed. So I'm just curious gents, what's your opinion? Ladies, would you consider yourself independent? An independent woman who can go 50/50 on most things is definitely nice. This wouldnt make me think shes too independent and didnt need me. I want a girl who relies on me emotionally, wants my physically, and enjoys how we click mentally....I dont want someone who will rely on me financially and not pull their weight.
kaylan Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Well, I find it to be a problem when I tell guys I run my own start-up business that is doing well. Even if they were all flirty before, they usually get weird when I reveal this, and almost always make some comment about how it'll be hard to keep up with/impress me. It's so disappointing. The only guys who don't seem bothered by it are sexy alpha types -- but I can't imagine something with one of them would last. They probably aren't bothered because they know it would only be short-lived fun. I'm considering saying something less impressive about what I do, giving them a watered-down version of the truth, so it doesn't scare guys off. But I think it would suck to have to pretend like that, so I haven't done it yet. These men are insecure, and usually not as successful as you. Truly alpha men dont get intimidated by others in this way. They are confident in who they are, as you already see.
Ariadne Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 It's not that men don't like women who can take care of themselves but some male bashers have hijacked the whole concept to make men out to be useless and disposable. An ideal woman is one who very much can hold her own but also values the relationship very much. If you are a working woman paying for 50% of all the bills, and you really could afford for 100% if you had to.. Then you really, really, have to love the guy to be with him (because there is no other need). You have to put up with the guy waking up looking like a mess, eating up most of the food, leaving dishes everywhere, leaving clothes, passing gas, burping, laying around the house, watching sports or other junk on tv, etc. If I worked and made good money I wouldn't put up with that most likely, and I don't think I'd love a man like that. I'd like a man that makes enough money to support us both. You men expecting women to be half providers, do house work for the most part, cook, has made yourselves disposable.
kaylan Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 ^What the hell are you talking about? I can do half the housework myself. Im not expecting some woman to be my parent and baby me. Get with the times
Ariadne Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (I remember being at a work function once and lamenting to my boss that I wanted a man, and she said, but then you have to put up with them!)
Ariadne Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 ^What the hell are you talking about? I can do half the housework myself. Im not expecting some woman to be my parent and baby me. Get with the times That's beautiful kaylan.
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