Sexuality and self-esteem: the new zeitgeist?

[Kamille]

Lately, I often feel thankful that I grew up in the 80s and 90s in a rural region of Canada. Living in a small community where everyone knew everyone else made it par for the course that 1) everyone did stupid things sometimes 2) everyone did wonderful things sometimes 3) your self-esteem was based off of many qualities (kindness, friendship, physical appearance, intelligence, pragmatism, etc.). Certainly, one's self-esteem could not be reduced to sexuality, be that the capacity to attract a member of the opposite sex, to sleep with a quazillion people, to perform like sex was an olympic sport, to attract a millionaire, etc.

 

Here on LS, I often see posters make strong links between their self-esteem and their sexuality (e.g., I cannot attract men/women, my self-esteem is therefore shot; do I stand a chance if I have a small penis; etc.). I'm left wondering if that's just an effect of LS (being a relationship forum, so that is where one would come to explore the ways in which sexuality affects their self-esteem) or if its the general zeitgeist of our hyper-mediated times. Like, if I went back to live in rural Canada today, would everyone be acting like they took their cues from a PUA website?

 

So here's my question: in your everyday life, how much do people base their self-esteem on their sexuality?

 

For those who struggle with sexuality, are there other areas of your life where you feel valued and held in high esteem?

[fortyninethousand322]

So here's my question: in your everyday life, how much do people base their self-esteem on their sexuality?

 

It's a mixed bag. The people who let sexuality define their self esteem are the people (like myself) who have never experienced a successful dating or romantic interaction (no sex, no gf/bf, nothing). People who experience ups and downs like everyone else are genuinely happy about things in their life and their self esteem is pretty good.

 

For those who struggle with sexuality, are there other areas of your life where you feel valued and held in high esteem?

 

Yeah, when I'm playing basketball. Not to brag but I'm pretty good at it, people want me on their team and I have fun doing it.

[Kamille]

It's a mixed bag. The people who let sexuality define their self esteem are the people (like myself) who have never experienced a successful dating or romantic interaction (no sex, no gf/bf, nothing). People who experience ups and downs like everyone else are genuinely happy about things in their life and their self esteem is pretty good.

 

I understand the rationale, and I understand that never having success in dating can have an impact on that area of one's self-esteem which is about dating. But, to me, that's where it should end. I'm not very good at public speaking and, therefore, I'm insecure about public speaking. End of. It doesn't need to permeate every other aspect of my life.

 

I guess what I'm disputing is the last part of the first paragraph you posted. People who experience up and downs in dating aren't automatically better off than people who really struggle with it. I know many married people who struggle with depression, anxiety, etc. Being successful in dating isn't a cure for anxiety, depression or low self-esteem.

 

Similarly, one can have good self-esteem and have no luck in dating. You (general you) could feel good about yourself even though you have the worse luck with the other sex If I was so inclined, I could make the case that I have no luck in dating: I am 35 and single (Other women here seem to feel that this is the point when you can consider yourself to be a failure at this thing called romance). I currently don't even have any prospects. But, for the life of me, I seem to be unable to make the leap whereby my single status makes me feel like a loser. There's so many other things in my life that give me pleasure and make me feel good about myself that I don't need romance to do it.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Kamille

[Kamille]

Frankly Kamille I'm suprised you come off as you do. I mean I don't know you at all but you atleast come off as a very kind person. A lot of people from your region of Canada (french candiens) piss me off to no ends haha.

 

The people who post on LS are very few in number and hardly an example of what many people are like.

 

Men have been worrying about getting women since the begining of time though. I mean look at lions. They have their bachelor groups and spend their entire life trying to fight the bad ass who has his own pride. Then if they take over they eat all the babies...

 

Humans must have pretty high self esteem just to live in this world. Do you know how easy it would be to just get lost in the mundanes of it all now that survival (at least in west) is efortless. Literaly efortless. Even with out government aid I was content being a charity case the charity would be more then happy to help me, clean food, shelter, water as much as I need. So now people have to invent a way in the world and create. Creating problems is a part of it. People like Somedude have lost all perspective. He has imagined problems that he purposely worries about for no reason at all. He refuses to face reality. Has nothing to do with a zeitgeist.

 

If you put me back in time to the 80's with my modern knowledge of sexuality and self esteem truth is I would probably blow those people away as would even some of the weakest amongst us. I mean look at Marty McFly back in the 50's they couldn't keep up with him. It would be like that for me if I went back to the 80's now... and I'm grown man so they'd really have to bow down to me.

 

So life is too easy and we therefore invent problems? Let's invent good fun together Dust! (I'll ignore the fact you're putting my peoplez down, on account that we are a pretty fantastic peoplez and that knowing us is loving us!)

[Kamille]

I wish I could change the title of this thread to:

 

Convince me my self-esteem should be at rock bottom.

[johan]

French Canadians have the best accents.

[Kamille]

French Canadians have the best accents.

 

Like these you mean: é è î ê ë à ù ?

 

I will recowrd a file wit my acc-ont if you sends me risqué photos of you. Deal?

 

We're also all shameless flirts. Everyone knows that.

[GoodOnPaper]

Here on LS, I often see posters make strong links between their self-esteem and their sexuality (e.g., I cannot attract men/women, my self-esteem is therefore shot; do I stand a chance if I have a small penis; etc.). I'm left wondering if that's just an effect of LS (being a relationship forum, so that is where one would come to explore the ways in which sexuality affects their self-esteem) or if its the general zeitgeist of our hyper-mediated times.

 

I think LS is simply drawing to it those of us with such strong sexuality/self-esteem links. And I think our hyper-mediated time is simply amplifying something that nearly everyone has told themselves throughout history, "If I can achieve, do, experience, or simply be _________, then I accept myself completely, warts and all." While a lot of us can probably think of several things on the surface to put in that blank, there is likely one thing that digs to the deepest core -- and on a forum like LS, a lot of us it will be sexual attractiveness, romance, etc. in that blank.

[denise_xo]

I'm pretty glad I'm not growing up today. But then I'm sure every generation says that

 

I don't really think LS is much to go by given the nature of the site. But where I live I think it's definitely the case that being sexually attractive is something that kids (especially girls) start worrying about pretty early. Even when I grew up, this kind of thing started around the 14 year old mark, but I think the whole emphasis on performativity was much less then than it is now. We're now expected to self manage and 'package' ourself for 'success' to a greater extent than before, I think, and it's seen as an individual failure if you don't master that game.

[Saxis]

I think we definitely see more people on these forums with self image/esteem problems stemming for sexuality and relationships, but I party agree with Dust for the general populace. Look at all the programs created that were designed to help the "less fortunate": no child left behind, welfare, food stamps, low income housing... It really isn't hard to survive anymore. And in this new age, we're teaching our kids that this is normal. Couple that with a serious lack of discipline these days, and they really start believing there's no consequences for being lazy. I don't know about you, but I sure draw a lot of self esteem and accomplishment from putting in the effort and hard work it takes to not merely survive, but to succeed, whether that be in my career, relationships or even hobbies. I fear for our future generations...

[somedude81]

I understand the rationale, and I understand that never having success in dating can have an impact on that area of one's self-esteem which is about dating. But, to me, that's where it should end. I'm not very good at public speaking and, therefore, I'm insecure about public speaking. End of. It doesn't need to permeate every other aspect of my life.

How important is public speaking too you?

 

Do you dream of giving great speeches?

 

Are you jealous that the great speakers can do something you can't?

[fortyninethousand322]

How important is public speaking too you?

 

Do you dream of giving great speeches?

 

Are you jealous that the great speakers can do something you can't?

 

Yeah that's the other thing, being great at public speaking isn't really a "basic" thing to be good at. Lots of people aren't good at public speaking, lots of people aren't good at making an omelette, or changing their own oil. But very few people go through adult life completely unable to attract a member of the opposite sex or date. I think by age 25 the number of virgins is like 3%. And that's just people who haven't had sex, I'd imagine the number of people who haven't kissed a girl or had a girlfriend would probably be lower than that.

 

I think that's a big part of the problem is that pairing off is supposed to be a given, not some kind of unconquerable obstacle.

[Nightsky]

Yeah that's the other thing, being great at public speaking isn't really a "basic" thing to be good at. Lots of people aren't good at public speaking, lots of people aren't good at making an omelette, or changing their own oil. But very few people go through adult life completely unable to attract a member of the opposite sex or date. I think by age 25 the number of virgins is like 3%. And that's just people who haven't had sex, I'd imagine the number of people who haven't kissed a girl or had a girlfriend would probably be lower than that.

 

I think that's a big part of the problem is that pairing off is supposed to be a given, not some kind of unconquerable obstacle.

 

Maybe her job involves speaking to groups of people in public regularly?

[fortyninethousand322]

Maybe her job involves speaking to groups of people in public regularly?

 

Fair point, but even then you'd be able to find another job or career that didn't involve public speaking. You'd be able to do quite well with yourself too. It might not be easy of course but it is possible. And no one would think less of someone who decided to be a computer programmer instead of a career that required public speaking.

 

The ability to attract someone for sex or a relationship is something that lots of people have. That's my point.

[somedude81]

I'd also point out that wanting a partner and possibly to procreate is a natural human desire.

 

Some say that intimacy and sex is a basic need for survival.

 

Of course nobody would die from a lack of sex and intimacy, but there might be severe mental trauma from going without them for too long.

[Nightsky]

Fair point, but even then you'd be able to find another job or career that didn't involve public speaking. You'd be able to do quite well with yourself too. It might not be easy of course but it is possible. And no one would think less of someone who decided to be a computer programmer instead of a career that required public speaking.

 

The ability to attract someone for sex or a relationship is something that lots of people have. That's my point.

 

She was just trying to connect through experiences.

 

Same way some guys really want a gf but are scared. They can’t simply like things they don’t like to avoid doing things they happen to be scared of.

 

Being a computer program because it’s what you like is great. Doing it because you’re too afraid to do the things you’d much rather be doing is like caging yourself. (punishment)

[Kamille]

I think we definitely see more people on these forums with self image/esteem problems stemming for sexuality and relationships, but I party agree with Dust for the general populace. Look at all the programs created that were designed to help the "less fortunate": no child left behind, welfare, food stamps, low income housing... It really isn't hard to survive anymore. And in this new age, we're teaching our kids that this is normal. Couple that with a serious lack of discipline these days, and they really start believing there's no consequences for being lazy. I don't know about you, but I sure draw a lot of self esteem and accomplishment from putting in the effort and hard work it takes to not merely survive, but to succeed, whether that be in my career, relationships or even hobbies. I fear for our future generations...

 

 

I was thinking about this while sweating my butt off at the gym. The region where I lived in rural Canada had an important level of welfare receivers. This contradicts the hypothesis that social programs are responsible for lack of ambition. Not only that, being the bleeding heart liberal that I am, I can't help but feel that competition is the problem, and not collaboration. The posters here who struggle the most tend to feel like the fact that they can't compete in one arena means they're out of luck in all arenas.

 

 

I'm pretty glad I'm not growing up today. But then I'm sure every generation says that

 

We're now expected to self manage and 'package' ourself for 'success' to a greater extent than before, I think, and it's seen as an individual failure if you don't master that game.

 

That's exactly how I feel. I mean, I'm lucky, I'm pretty good at packaging myself and tend to view it as a game, no matter the stakes. But that's because somehow this core unshakable belief in my worth. Most of my friends from back home seem to have it too (and btw, back home isn't in Québec) - which is why I was trying to think through what there was about my upbringing that made us so... wholesome I guess.

 

 

 

How important is public speaking too you?

 

Do you dream of giving great speeches?

 

Are you jealous that the great speakers can do something you can't?

 

My job depends on my capacity to give good public speeches. I love my job. I get to do research, travel the world, work with young adults. And then I have to stand in front of esteemed colleagues or students and argue my point. Am I good at it: heck no. Do I think it's the end of the world? Nope - my entire being isn't defined by my capacity to hold on to my job. I'm also figuring out how to get better at it.

 

I'd also point out that wanting a partner and possibly to procreate is a natural human desire.

 

Some say that intimacy and sex is a basic need for survival.

 

 

Of course nobody would die from a lack of sex and intimacy, but there might be severe mental trauma from going without them for too long.

 

Hey, I haven't had sex in months. I understand the concept that it's a natural desire. I'm not denying that it is one aspect of what makes people who they are. I'm questioning the idea that being sexless/partnerless = automatic low self-esteem.

[somedude81]

Months? Try going a few years. Also make sure you're not choosing to go without, but that you just can't get any.

 

Involuntary celibacy. And getting a prostitute is not a fix.

 

For me, the low self-esteem is caused by failure. It's having a goal and consistently failing at it. It's also important to consider how important that goal is to you. Another aspect is that if one is trying to get in a relationship but fail, it means that they were rejected. And rejection basically means that you weren't good enough for the other person.

 

It's basically a double whammy. Failing on what you really want to accomplish, and having somebody tell you that you suck.

[Kamille]

Let me put it this way. I doubt any of my grandparents spent much time taking pride in their sexuality. I know for a fact what my grandfather loved the most about my grandmother was her pragmatism. She, on the other hand, loved that he was an honest, family man. And before you guys go all nostalgic on men and women's roles, she was older than him, they both worked inside and outside the home and she's the one who pursued him.

[GoodOnPaper]

The posters here who struggle the most tend to feel like the fact that they can't compete in one arena means they're out of luck in all arenas.

 

It can be compartmentalized. I've had great success educationally and professionally . . . but because I view myself as a "failure" at attracting women, there's sort of a mental cloud cast over even those successes. Again, I think it is human nature to use one aspect of life as a measuring stick to validate him- or herself (not necessarily one singularly, but there is probably one that hits a deeper nerve than the others). And it's individualized -- for some it may be professional accomplishment, for others it may be achievement or ability in education, art/music, sports, parenting, you name it. I'd expect a forum like LS to draw a lot of us who use "success" at sexuality, romance, etc. as that measuring stick.

 

Is it unreasonable to base so much of your esteem on this? It probably seems that way . . . IF you use something else for your validation.

[Ross MwcFan]

I understand the rationale, and I understand that never having success in dating can have an impact on that area of one's self-esteem which is about dating. But, to me, that's where it should end. I'm not very good at public speaking and, therefore, I'm insecure about public speaking. End of. It doesn't need to permeate every other aspect of my life.

 

I guess what I'm disputing is the last part of the first paragraph you posted. People who experience up and downs in dating aren't automatically better off than people who really struggle with it. I know many married people who struggle with depression, anxiety, etc. Being successful in dating isn't a cure for anxiety, depression or low self-esteem.

 

Similarly, one can have good self-esteem and have no luck in dating. You (general you) could feel good about yourself even though you have the worse luck with the other sex If I was so inclined, I could make the case that I have no luck in dating: I am 35 and single (Other women here seem to feel that this is the point when you can consider yourself to be a failure at this thing called romance). I currently don't even have any prospects. But, for the life of me, I seem to be unable to make the leap whereby my single status makes me feel like a loser. There's so many other things in my life that give me pleasure and make me feel good about myself that I don't need romance to do it.

 

Not being good at public speaking though doesn't really reflect on you as a person.

 

Never being able to get dates does, and it reflects badly. It says there must be something wrong with you as a person/with your personality and/or you're sexually undesirable.

[Ross MwcFan]

I'd also point out that wanting a partner and possibly to procreate is a natural human desire.

 

Some say that intimacy and sex is a basic need for survival.

 

Of course nobody would die from a lack of sex and intimacy, but there might be severe mental trauma from going without them for too long.

 

Even if it's not a real need, it sure feels like one.

[Saxis]

I was thinking about this while sweating my butt off at the gym. The region where I lived in rural Canada had an important level of welfare receivers. This contradicts the hypothesis that social programs are responsible for lack of ambition. Not only that, being the bleeding heart liberal that I am, I can't help but feel that competition is the problem, and not collaboration. The posters here who struggle the most tend to feel like the fact that they can't compete in one arena means they're out of luck in all arenas.

 

I think most adults still have the drive to succeed and not rely on social programs, but many of their circumstances just never change because they either don't or can't take action. Most people I know on welfare are in that position on their own accord. Mostly just made bad decisions and did not take control of their own lives, whether it be dropping out of school, drug/alcohol issues, getting knocked up young and outside of a committed relationship/marriage.

 

I've witnessed exactly what it does to a child in that situation, also. My own actually. After the XW left me, she pretty much did'nt work for 3 years and lived off the state, my child support (which was ridiculously high BECAUSE she didn't work) and low income housing. She was better off than I was, and I actually make decent money for this area! So last year in first grade at 6 years old, they had a sort of "career day", in which different professions were explained, obviously to incite some thought into what the kids would like to do with their lives. After she was done explaining what happened at school that day, I asked her what she would be interested in doing. She says "Nothing... I just want to stay home and be lazy like mom.". I asked her how she would pay for things and she just shrugged, saying "I don't know...". I sh*t you not, exact words and I was shocked! Granted, she didn't really understand everything or the details about how they were able to live pretty decently, but it definitely sent her the wrong message. I definitely think kids learn more by example, so thankfully my XW DOES have some ambition, and is now working full time and living without *much* assistance.

 

I do agree with somedude81 about finding a mate and procreating being very powerful instinctual draws. It is the very basic foundation of survival. I see how that could have a devastating affect on one's overall self-esteem...