bentnotbroken Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Does it work for his wife, as well? Of course it does. The three of them have sat down together and had an open honest heart felt conversation about the entire six years. They have discussed the roles each of them plays and made clear all expectations. We know this because all involved are good mature adults who want only the best possible outcome for all involved. 5
MissBee Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Of course it does. The three of them have sat down together and had an open honest heart felt conversation about the entire six years. They have discussed the roles each of them plays and made clear all expectations. We know this because all involved are good mature adults who want only the best possible outcome for all involved. I guess it's all about compartmentalizing though, and taking what you feel is good about them when they are with you and then superimposing it onto their entire life, ignoring that because they are secretly with you, other people may not see them as such a great person and the things that they need to do to be with you also can compromise them being a better person. It's not much different from other relationships in which people also have a microscopic view of their situation and inflate the good and leave out the macroscopic picture. I do get how in some respect you could believe you are making this person's life better, but I don't think, as alexandria noted, that is the same as making them become a better person. A MP who wants fun and frolic outside of their M for example, the OW of course makes him happy in that regard....however, I see that as not having much to do with the person as a whole and them actually becoming better as an individual. I suppose one can view your relationship in an insular way and how you feel around each other and how you feel you make each other better and your intimate pillow talk and imagine that this translates into being a good person....but as my earlier posts asks, is that really true? Too bad SBC refused to answer so we could have an actual idea if what I'm discussing is what she means or something totally different. Somehow secret relationship and growth don't seem to go hand in hand....one implies a contraction and limitations on what you can and can't do, when and where and who can know...while growth and becoming better IMO implies that freedom to move unrestricted in an open and authentic way. 2
frozensprouts Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 hazel, thank you for sharing your story...maybe it will help someone else in a bad relationship realize that their relationship( be it affair, marriage or otherwise) is not good for them, and they'll be able to find the strength to ed it it move on to a happier place With regard to affairs... a poster in the infidelity section made a very good point. She noted that affairs can often, at first, seem really wonderful because it's like someone who's kids are grown spending time with their grand kids. they get to play and have fun, spoil the grand kids silly and them send them home to mom and dad. They get to have all the fun without the "hard stuff"because someone else is doing that. But it seems, just from reading many posts on this board, that eventually the "fun" can start to be overshadowed by the hurt. It almost seems as if people in affairs are willing to put up with crap they normally never would in a romantic relationship with a single person, but it's excused because " it's an affair...things are different than a "regular" relationship". But if you take away all the romantic words ( "but he/she loves me....if so, why are they treating you badly and why are you hurting so much?) and what do you get? A relationship where at least one person is probably very sad or stuck waiting for something that may very well never happen. If you were in a relation ship with a single person ould you put up with a few stolen words here and there, having to sit at home alone waiting for a call from them when they can get a few free minutes, not being able to contact them when you really need to, having to hide your relationship from people who know you or him/her, having to spend important times alone instead of with them ....if not, then why would you put up with it in an affair? Why be in a relationship where that could happen?
MissBee Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 hazel, thank you for sharing your story...maybe it will help someone else in a bad relationship realize that their relationship( be it affair, marriage or otherwise) is not good for them, and they'll be able to find the strength to ed it it move on to a happier place With regard to affairs... a poster in the infidelity section made a very good point. She noted that affairs can often, at first, seem really wonderful because it's like someone who's kids are grown spending time with their grand kids. they get to play and have fun, spoil the grand kids silly and them send them home to mom and dad. They get to have all the fun without the "hard stuff"because someone else is doing that. But it seems, just from reading many posts on this board, that eventually the "fun" can start to be overshadowed by the hurt. It almost seems as if people in affairs are willing to put up with crap they normally never would in a romantic relationship with a single person, but it's excused because " it's an affair...things are different than a "regular" relationship". But if you take away all the romantic words ( "but he/she loves me....if so, why are they treating you badly and why are you hurting so much?) and what do you get? A relationship where at least one person is probably very sad or stuck waiting for something that may very well never happen. If you were in a relation ship with a single person ould you put up with a few stolen words here and there, having to sit at home alone waiting for a call from them when they can get a few free minutes, not being able to contact them when you really need to, having to hide your relationship from people who know you or him/her, having to spend important times alone instead of with them ....if not, then why would you put up with it in an affair? Why be in a relationship where that could happen? I think a lot of affairs are based around romance and not a relationship. Even for myself, I was reading on commitment phobia and was smacked in the face by what I found, which is that those who gravitate towards unavailable people and relationships usually do so because they prefer romance to a relationship and believe relationships are mostly about romance. They on an intellectual level realize this is not true, but how they behave and what they choose shows them preferring romantic situations over relationships and getting bored when a relationship becomes real and not just about romance anymore. I think comments like "I was married before, I don't want that again", "I have a busy life, I don't need someone 24/7" etc all point to that avoidance of commitment and that desire for the romance that the A can give without the relationship....without what is there that you have to sustain on a day to day basis. You may not realize that is what you are saying, that you choose the romance over the relationship, but it is. And some people believe that because As also include other not necessarily romantic or sexual things that it is more of a relationship...it is in a broad sense...but it's STILL that grandparent's relationship. It's not parenting. It's not full time. BOTH of you know it's not the primary relationship and even when you have problems etc it is not as threatening as it would be if this person was your husband or single boyfriend/girlfriend. Whether you acknowledge it or not, when in an affair, you know the invisible boundaries and you respond accordingly. 1
MissBee Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 I wanted to add something that I left out, for those that might think that I'm bitter and mean and only think this way because I'm not with him. No.......that's not it at all. In fact, I know without a shadow of a doubt that I'm so much better off not being with him. Even when I was with him and I didn't know what a pathological liar he was, there was a nagging at my soul, a belief deep down that things would not go well. Call it what ever you will, God, the universe, karma, but happiness does not come to you with being part of someone's else undeserved pain. I agree. I think we're all intuitive, but some people are more attuned to this than others are. But nonetheless, most of us still can exercise our intuitions. I think we all can feel people out here and if we're honest or in tune, we KNOW what stems from bitterness, what is projection, what is plain crazy and what is sincerity. And in relationships we also know the truth about it...no matter how foggy, most times we KNOW.
18Years2Late Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 I think a lot of affairs are based around romance and not a relationship. Even for myself, I was reading on commitment phobia and was smacked in the face by what I found, which is that those who gravitate towards unavailable people and relationships usually do so because they prefer romance to a relationship and believe relationships are mostly about romance. They on an intellectual level realize this is not true, but how they behave and what they choose shows them preferring romantic situations over relationships and getting bored when a relationship becomes real and not just about romance anymore. I think comments like "I was married before, I don't want that again", "I have a busy life, I don't need someone 24/7" etc all point to that avoidance of commitment and that desire for the romance that the A can give without the relationship....without what is there that you have to sustain on a day to day basis. You may not realize that is what you are saying, that you choose the romance over the relationship, but it is. And some people believe that because As also include other not necessarily romantic or sexual things that it is more of a relationship...it is in a broad sense...but it's STILL that grandparent's relationship. It's not parenting. It's not full time. BOTH of you know it's not the primary relationship and even when you have problems etc it is not as threatening as it would be if this person was your husband or single boyfriend/girlfriend. Whether you acknowledge it or not, when in an affair, you know the invisible boundaries and you respond accordingly. I agree with this... For me...I don't think I'm commitment phobic...I'm M and I have a family including 3 kids...when I look back on it my A seemed "safe" bc he and I could both "give them back" (like grandkids)...maybe that's why I let it go on so long...but eventually we were in deep and when I felt he could no longer give me what I expected...when the hurt out-weighed the bliss (fantasy)...it was time to end it...did the fact that I could "send him back" make the end hurt less?...absolutely not...so I think this grandparent analogy goes for commitment phobic single OW as well as MOW already committed... 1
MissBee Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I agree with this... For me...I don't think I'm commitment phobic...I'm M and I have a family including 3 kids...when I look back on it my A seemed "safe" bc he and I could both "give them back" (like grandkids)...maybe that's why I let it go on so long...but eventually we were in deep and when I felt he could no longer give me what I expected...when the hurt out-weighed the bliss (fantasy)...it was time to end it...did the fact that I could "send him back" make the end hurt less?...absolutely not...so I think this grandparent analogy goes for commitment phobic single OW as well as MOW already committed... Speaking of this...that was one of the most salient points in the book, that marriage does not mean you are not commitment phobic....commitment phobes marry all the time, and infidelity is usually a result of the claustrophobia commitment phobes start to feel in their relationship. I don't know if you are commitment phobic necessarily, but I had to point out that that is a misconception. Marriage, as we see on LS everyday, does not always mean one is committed, you're just married. The misconception is that commitment phobic people run from commitment at all cost and would never marry, this is one kind of commitment phobe, the obvious one...but you have varying degrees. Also, for women, it presents differently than it does for men. You have more passive commitment phobes, which most women who are commitment phobic are this kind and active commitment phobes (those who run away) which are most times men. It was so shocking to me, as they described me perfectly when they said commitment phobic women love to discuss and envision marriage, kids and the picket fence but in reality always subconsciously choose the wrong people who can never give that and they prefer that fantasy of a settled life over the reality of actually doing it.... They also discussed commitment phobic fears kicking in at milestones in relationships. For some it is after the 3rd date that went well, they get scared that they may have to eventually commit and disappear. For some, it is after they have sex, they then feel like this changes the relationship and the commitment has to increase so they disappear, for some they can date for years and once marriage is discussed they disappear, for some they can marry and be fine but once they have kids they feel like that is the nail in the coffin and they feel claustrophobic...and married commitment phobes usually go into crisis and try to create distance through infidelity or working a lot. I recommend this book which really enlightened me and I could resonate so much: He's Scared, She's Scared: Understanding the Hidden Fears That Sabotage Your Relationships. Edited February 20, 2012 by MissBee
NoIDidn't Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Hi Hazel I'm glad you shared your experience and I am sure it will not fall "on deaf ears". Someone in Lurkdom is reading and digesting what you said. I hope you come back and post more. (despicableMe - I like your posts just fine. And I didn't find what you said out of line or intended as cruel at all.) (Everyone else - HEY!...BTW, I hate the new "Like" feature. It would only be fair to include a "dislike" feature like they do on The TubeOfYou)
frozensprouts Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 I agree with this... For me...I don't think I'm commitment phobic...I'm M and I have a family including 3 kids...when I look back on it my A seemed "safe" bc he and I could both "give them back" (like grandkids)...maybe that's why I let it go on so long...but eventually we were in deep and when I felt he could no longer give me what I expected...when the hurt out-weighed the bliss (fantasy)...it was time to end it...did the fact that I could "send him back" make the end hurt less?...absolutely not...so I think this grandparent analogy goes for commitment phobic single OW as well as MOW already committed... makes sense... in a way, a married guy/woman probably feels "safe" because , at the end of the day, the other man/woman ( either commitment phobic or already in a relationship) can "put them away" until the next time they see them...maybe the same holds true for the married person. You get the "fun" ( romance) without the "work" ( highs and lows of a more commited relationship)
NoIDidn't Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 makes sense... in a way, a married guy/woman probably feels "safe" because , at the end of the day, the other man/woman ( either commitment phobic or already in a relationship) can "put them away" until the next time they see them...maybe the same holds true for the married person. You get the "fun" ( romance) without the "work" ( highs and lows of a more commited relationship) But as Miss Bee pointed out, its the "textbook" definition of "commitment phobic". Wanting to be able to "put them away" means not wanting to commit to them full time.
nofool4u Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 And you deserve better than being anyone's plan B. This might be true if you didn't know he was married in the first place.
NoIDidn't Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 This might be true if you didn't know he was married in the first place. I don't think that's fair to say. The vast majority of OW in this forum knew the guy was married, BUT the married guy made them THINK they were Plan A, not Plan B. I do agree that its foolish (not that you said this) to think that one is Plan A when there is a W present, but I don't think that's fair to say entirely. Unfortunately for some, four or more years have to go by before they realize that they were never Plan A. But I don't think any of them set out believing that to be the case.
18Years2Late Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 But as Miss Bee pointed out, its the "textbook" definition of "commitment phobic". Wanting to be able to "put them away" means not wanting to commit to them full time. Oh I did (past tense) want to commit to him full time...in the fog I would have D my H yesterday instead of waiting 9 more years...I guess I was trying to say that since I already had a commitment...as did he...we were able to "pretend" longer that the A wasn't destroying us from the inside out...since we had other commitments(S and kids) to distract us from the fantasy...then we had the fantasy to distract from reality...hence I put him away for a little while...and came back later...and vice versa for him...like a dam toy right?...omg we were sick...
nofool4u Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 I don't think that's fair to say. The vast majority of OW in this forum knew the guy was married, BUT the married guy made them THINK they were Plan A, not Plan B. I do agree that its foolish (not that you said this) to think that one is Plan A when there is a W present, but I don't think that's fair to say entirely. I think its entirely fair to say. Because the OW, or OM in reverse, is hoping for a plan that involves an unintended plan that really sucks for the wife, and they know this, unless MM lied to the OW about his marital status, then I completely sympathize. But how fair do they think this is to the wife?
FelicityShot Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 I think its entirely fair to say. Because the OW, or OM in reverse, is hoping for a plan that involves an unintended plan that really sucks for the wife, and they know this, unless MM lied to the OW about his marital status, then I completely sympathize. But how fair do they think this is to the wife? The fact that something isn't fair isn't really a yardstick - particularly if someone is keen in life to make this statement. 'It's not fair!' Well. yeah, I worked that bit out already. What is fair, NF4Y? Other than perfect love and what you work for actually paying off? What I mean is, so much in life isn't fair. It isn't nice for his W, but is it fair? Well that's up to HIM/HER (You know, the Divine, God, Allah, someone better, a saint)? Not you or me.
Spark1111 Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I don't think that's fair to say. The vast majority of OW in this forum knew the guy was married, BUT the married guy made them THINK they were Plan A, not Plan B. I do agree that its foolish (not that you said this) to think that one is Plan A when there is a W present, but I don't think that's fair to say entirely. Unfortunately for some, four or more years have to go by before they realize that they were never Plan A. But I don't think any of them set out believing that to be the case. NID, I do not disagree with you often, but on this, I do. No ONE can make ME think anything, without my permission and consent to do so. I have to buy into it on some level. And despite the attraction to a MM, I have to buy into that I am plan A while he still provides for, has dinner with, sleeps with, goes on vacation with, raises children with, hosts holidays for both side of the family with, a WIFE. Hell, he leaves me to return HER phone calls; showers before he goes home to sleep in a bed with her, has to buy her cards, and flowers and gifts too! The OTHER OTHER WOMAN, HIS WIFE. That is a pretty big piece of proof right there to convince yourself to ignore because he says she's plan B, and that you will be his plan A while he goes home everynight to a WIFE. You have to delude yourself to go there; or be totally in self-esteem gutter to go there to convince yourself he is telling you, only you, that he wants you while he is still married to a WIFE. If you got hurt in the process, I feel sorry for you. I really do. But you talked yourself out of the biggest piece of evidence out there when you chose to get involved: His wife that he was married to. And the only question is why? Why did you do that to you? That was a huge red, living, breathing, flag you CHOSE to ignore. You chose to believe his lies while having full proof and knowledge of a marriage, a wife, and often children. Why?
Spark1111 Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 The fact that something isn't fair isn't really a yardstick - particularly if someone is keen in life to make this statement. 'It's not fair!' Well. yeah, I worked that bit out already. What is fair, NF4Y? Other than perfect love and what you work for actually paying off? What I mean is, so much in life isn't fair. It isn't nice for his W, but is it fair? Well that's up to HIM/HER (You know, the Divine, God, Allah, someone better, a saint)? Not you or me. No FS, you are whitewashing and minimizing. Not nice???????? Not returning a phone call, or taking a friend off the party invite list, or being grumpy with a vendor or service repairman is not NICE. Willingly and knowingly deceiving an unsuspecting spouse for months or years while aided and abetted by your selfish AP is UNFAIR. And while life is not fair, that statement includes things we cannot control: the color of our eyes, the size of our wasteline, the promotion we were passed over for. But an affair? That was outside our control ONLY because two people lied and deceived us; one who had promised to cherish, honor and keep us safe forever. Perfect love NEVER hurts others. Selfish, entitled love does. That's unfair to the unsuspecting spouse.
nofool4u Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 The fact that something isn't fair isn't really a yardstick - particularly if someone is keen in life to make this statement. 'It's not fair!' Well. yeah, I worked that bit out already. What is fair, NF4Y? Other than perfect love and what you work for actually paying off? What I mean is, so much in life isn't fair. It isn't nice for his W, but is it fair? Well that's up to HIM/HER (You know, the Divine, God, Allah, someone better, a saint)? Not you or me. Point is, one shouldn't complain about being treated unfairly, when their "plan" or wishes involved someone else getting hurt. If your point is life isn't fair, and get over it. Fine. Then OP can take the sob story elsewhere for the sake of consistency.
nofool4u Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 That's unfair to the unsuspecting spouse. I don't think she is particularly concerned what is fair to the wife.
robf1971 Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 But how fair do they think this is to the wife? They don't care a d*mn
robf1971 Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Point is, one shouldn't complain about being treated unfairly, when their "plan" or wishes involved someone else getting hurt. If your point is life isn't fair, and get over it. Fine. Then OP can take the sob story elsewhere for the sake of consistency. Yep it's ok for them to be selfish but when they get treated badly they are the worst at taking it. I think some people are just incapable of any empathy. Were they tought the difference between right and wrong as kids even?
BenThereDunThat Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 The long and short of it is, anyone who doesn't get the intent of the opening post is just never gonna get it. Argue it all you want. Twist it inside and out, backwards and forwards, all you want. It is what it is and it just ain't no more than that.
NoIDidn't Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 NID, I do not disagree with you often, but on this, I do. No ONE can make ME think anything, without my permission and consent to do so. I have to buy into it on some level. And despite the attraction to a MM, I have to buy into that I am plan A while he still provides for, has dinner with, sleeps with, goes on vacation with, raises children with, hosts holidays for both side of the family with, a WIFE. Hell, he leaves me to return HER phone calls; showers before he goes home to sleep in a bed with her, has to buy her cards, and flowers and gifts too! The OTHER OTHER WOMAN, HIS WIFE. That is a pretty big piece of proof right there to convince yourself to ignore because he says she's plan B, and that you will be his plan A while he goes home everynight to a WIFE. You have to delude yourself to go there; or be totally in self-esteem gutter to go there to convince yourself he is telling you, only you, that he wants you while he is still married to a WIFE. If you got hurt in the process, I feel sorry for you. I really do. But you talked yourself out of the biggest piece of evidence out there when you chose to get involved: His wife that he was married to. And the only question is why? Why did you do that to you? That was a huge red, living, breathing, flag you CHOSE to ignore. You chose to believe his lies while having full proof and knowledge of a marriage, a wife, and often children. Why? I'm sure you are using "you" in a general sense, but it seems directed at "someone" personally. Not sure whom. Maybe you know who you are directing this pity towards? I stand by my statement that its not fair to say. If you missed the point of my statement, the entire thing, I can only ask you to re-read it and get past the statement about "fair"-ness.
NoIDidn't Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 The long and short of it is, anyone who doesn't get the intent of the opening post is just never gonna get it. Argue it all you want. Twist it inside and out, backwards and forwards, all you want. It is what it is and it just ain't no more than that. Ain't this the truth!!
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