Boundary setting question

April 19, 2012

Guys, you can tell NH a million times to leave but, if he doesn't want to leave his marriage, he won't. So all you're doing with your steadfastness is turning what you say to buzzing in his ears. He wants to hear advice on what works to KEEP his marriage and still get what he wants. How about brainstorming on ways to accomplish that?

It doesn't matter what YOU would do; what matters is what he wants. So try to help him.

Everything he's tried hasn't made her change.

There is NO MARRIAGE at this point.

She's not been faithful. She's not doing things to honor him as a husband. She's not taking action to NEVER cheat again.

Now we learn she's cheated before... THAT changes everything.

He can't save the M when she won't change the woman she is = that cheater. That's why there's nothing to "save!"

April 19, 2012

Guys, you can tell NH a million times to leave but, if he doesn't want to leave his marriage, he won't. So all you're doing with your steadfastness is turning what you say to buzzing in his ears. He wants to hear advice on what works to KEEP his marriage and still get what he wants. How about brainstorming on ways to accomplish that?

It doesn't matter what YOU would do; what matters is what he wants. So try to help him.

Fair Enough.

NH CAN'T change the situation.

His W WON'T change the situation.

Answer: NH develops a coping mechanism. Perhaps crochet?

Whilee that is a tad tongue in cheek it is also 100% correct.

NH has ZERO ability to change the dynamic. He can't MAKE his W stop cheating.

His W, who HAS the power to stop, doesn't WANT to stop.

Simple really.

April 19, 2012

He has two choices:

Stay and know she will continue cheating

OR

Divorce her so you can begin living again. There is freedom in having enough self respect to walk away when the bad parts are never gonna change. THAT you DO have a choice in what happens.

She's rally left you with nothing positive to work with.

There's no hope if someone isn't willing to change.

April 19, 2012

Ninja, I've seen you post on SI too( Bella's thread). How are they reacting to your story there? Do they think it will work?

April 19, 2012

NH...I read through the first few pages of this thread to really get some background as I only came into the forums around page 35 or so. Unsolicited, maybe...but here are my thoughts: You "love" your wife, but do you like really LOVE her? Do you get tingly when you think of times before all this sh_tstorm took over? Do you feel that way when you think of the potential that you two might have? If so, then you need something huge for YOU. And that, my friend, is confidence. See, the entire MA is built around being submissive to a higher rank, so you can't change thousands of years of tradition and history. It's ingrained. It's cherished. Therefore, by you going to the dojo to train with her, YOU are now not only submissive to the OM for the art of Kendo...but to the affair itself. Tomorrow, Friday, is when you said that you want to tell sensei, and I think the only way to do that is to spend most of your day literally talking yourself UP. Do NOT back down from this. The OM is nothing but a POS anyway and has zero honor, as does your wife, for that beautiful art. I won't even get into Iaido and the repercussions of true honor among the samurai. Hold your f'ng head up high, my man and know...beyond any f'ng doubt that YOU DID NO WRONG. You did everything you were supposed to do and continue to do more than what you actually should. With luck, true shame will be given to them both from not only sensei ~ but you. You are the one with the control at that point. Hell, you have the control now, it just seems that you are too fearful to wield it. And I understand that. You got sucker/gut punched outta nowhere, just as I did. It f'ng sucks. But you know what - you do what you have to do. You do what is right. You do what is honorable. Because in the end, no one can respect the one who sees wrong and does nothing about it. Confidence.

Geesh - I just re-read that and I hope I don't sound like a pompous speech writer for Tony Robbins or anything...lol

April 19, 2012

What she is doing to you is abusive (since you are sacrificing your morals, integrity and character for her).

But the thing that you aren't understanding is that you go along with THAT abuse by ALLOWING IT TO CONTINUE.

So you only have YOURSELF to blame for ALLOWING her to treat you terribly.

I want more for you than THAT. You deserve better!

Never settle!

April 19, 2012

Everything he's tried hasn't made her change.

2 affairs, being kicked out by dojo, having a miscarriage...All her consquences haven't made her change. She is incapable of changing because the most IMPORTANT consquence hasn't happened.. You standing up to her and putting your foot down.

Quit MA immediately, tell dojo about the affair and do marriage counselling..Or divorce. Those are her choices. No more Mr Nice guy, mr understanding, mr I don't want to be the bad guy, mr don't want to hurt her feelings.. Stand up to her and maybe then you'll see change once she realizes how serious you are. 2 things will happen, she'll wake the F up and get her shi.t together and work her ass off to get the marriage back on track or you two will divorce. doing what is happening now isn't working.

April 19, 2012

So after having failed with threats of D to get her to quit class...we've recovered from the damage that caused.

You miss the point about threat of divorce and have therefore never really tired it. A divorce does not happen instantaneously, but takes a long time to happen from when you file, thus there is plenty of time for it to be stopped. Only when you file for divorce and proceed accordingly with it will the reality of it all sink in. As she is required to get a job, as you divide the assets, etc., the negative impact on her life will have a chance push her to rethink her plans. The fact is she will not be able to work a job, go to school and do her MA if you proceed with divorce and mean it.

Not only did you back down way too early and not even file for divorce when faced with the expected resistance, your expressed willingness to put her through school no matter what she did, basically made it so that she never was faced with the reality of the down side to her of divorce. You offered her cake and she took it. I get it that you do not want to divorce, but you are not fooling anyone but yourself when you claim that you tried the divorce route and it did not work. You backed down too early for it to have a chance. She knew that you would back down under her pressure and you did. The threat of divorce does not work when the everyone knows that it is all bark and no bite. Again, if you do not want to divorce no matter what, that it your right, just stop claiming that you did something that you did not really do.

April 19, 2012

I'm willing to loan you my balls! Ahahaha!

Seriously - people have actually asked me to loan them my courage and strength for a day or so!

I have enough for ten people! I've been to hell and back and am here to tell you it's a much happier place over here... On the other side. The no fear side!

But you must walk THROUGH what you fear most to get to the other side.

You can do it - and you deserve to get here. No more looking backwards to see what hasn't worked. Only focus on changing things to never have them the same as they've been.

I'm smiling at the thought of your new freedom - your chance to live again in the freedom of no fear!

I hope you will consider that you ARE worth it!

April 19, 2012

I'm willing to loan you my balls! Ahahaha!

Seriously - people have actually asked me to loan them my courage and strength for a day or so!

I have enough for ten people! I've been to hell and back and am here to tell you it's a much happier place over here... On the other side. The no fear side!

But you must walk THROUGH what you fear most to get to the other side.

You can do it - and you deserve to get here. No more looking backwards to see what hasn't worked. Only focus on changing things to never have them the same as they've been.

I'm smiling at the thought of your new freedom - your chance to live again in the freedom of no fear!

I hope you will consider that you ARE worth it!

In all seriousness, 2Sunny, that is admirable.

But let me ask you this: the first time you were hit with this kind of hardship, did you immediately show courage and kick your exH out - pretty much everything you are advocating right now? OR did you have to learn the hard way and in the process develop that kind of courage?

April 19, 2012

In all seriousness, 2Sunny, that is admirable.

But let me ask you this: the first time you were hit with this kind of hardship, did you immediately show courage and kick your exH out - pretty much everything you are advocating right now? OR did you have to learn the hard way and in the process develop that kind of courage?

The first time he cheated I forgave him with one condition - that IF it ever happened again - I would D him without any conversation. And that's what I did after 20 years of being M to him.

I had a boundary and I stuck to it! It nearly killed me - but I knew I didn't deserve to live with a serial cheater! I had my integrity and I knew I'd be compromising if I stayed.

He begged and pleaded - I was done!

Once is forgivable - twice is on purpose!

And he was like NH's wife - he wasn't really sorry he did it - he was only sorry he got caught!

When they show no conscience and no remorse - you can't make them feel sorry for what they did - because that narcississtic gene won't allow them to feel anything for others - only that sense of entitlement for themselves - even at all costs! And THAT attitude is the one who cheats again and again.

They never think they need to suffer consequences. And they certainly don't like OWNING how they participated!

April 19, 2012

The first time he cheated I forgave him with one condition - that IF it ever happened again - I would D him without any conversation. And that's what I did after 20 years of being M to him.

I had a boundary and I stuck to it! It nearly killed me - but I knew I didn't deserve to live with a serial cheater! I had my integrity and I knew I'd be compromising if I stayed.

He begged and pleaded - I was done!

Once is forgivable - twice is on purpose!

And he was like NH's wife - he wasn't really sorry he did it - he was only sorry he got caught!

When they show no conscience and no remorse - you can't make them feel sorry for what they did - because that narcississtic gene won't allow them to feel anything for others - only that sense of entitlement for themselves - even at all costs! And THAT attitude is the one who cheats again and again.

They never think they need to suffer consequences. And they certainly don't like OWNING how they participated!

I think you get my point.

April 19, 2012

I think you get my point.

What advice are you offering here Sandie? What do you think has changed since the beginning of this thread = nothing!

The point is - there needs to be a solid boundary. One which is adhered to no matter what BS the cheater tries to feed you.

A serial cheater falls under another category than one time cheater.

Time for NH to stop playing the victim role and become a warrior who protects himself from her pain she continues to inflict by her controlling and manipulative ways.

April 19, 2012

What advice are you offering here Sandie? What do you think has changed since the beginning of this thread = nothing!

The point is - there needs to be a solid boundary. One which is adhered to no matter what BS the cheater tries to feed you.

A serial cheater falls under another category than one time cheater.

Time for NH to stop playing the victim role and become a warrior who protects himself from her pain she continues to inflict by her controlling and manipulative ways.

Well, right now I am not offering any advice actually...I'm going through a lot myself, so I can't say what NH should do. It's just that I see a lot of "all or nothing" with many of your posts, and while you're probably right a lot of the times, NH needs to learn from his own mistakes in order to be sure he is doing the right thing if he divorces his wife. If he leaves without trying what he needs to try, he will probably spend his life wondering if he made a mistake.

We are all individuals, Sunny. There is no one prescription for this problem. I guess I don't group all cheating husbands and wives and claim what one cheater does, the other one will do the same.

April 19, 2012

Here's a reasonable point that's worth making a mental note of:

She won't quit her classes to mend her marriage

BUT she was willing to skip her classes to have sex with her OM

She doesn't mind skipping her class when there's something in it for her. The M isn't HER priority.

Show her that evidence.

April 19, 2012

Your deadline was March 1st? What happened to sticking to THAT boundary?

April 19, 2012

NH...you have to decide for you how much is enough to save the M. She should be doing it, but you do what you can for you so you'll know that if the M ends in D that you gave 100%. You are too good....

April 19, 2012

NH...I read through the first few pages of this thread to really get some background as I only came into the forums around page 35 or so.

It's become one of the largest infidelity threads in this forum lol....quite a task to read it all ^^

Unsolicited, maybe...but here are my thoughts:

That's ok, most of the advice in this thread is unsolicited haha. My original question got answered ages ago. Q: Do I have a right to demand she quit the dojo? A: YES!

Bonus Q: Should I tell OMW?

A: YES!

You "love" your wife, but do you like really LOVE her? Do you get tingly when you think of times before all this sh_tstorm took over? Do you feel that way when you think of the potential that you two might have? If so, then you need something huge for YOU. And that, my friend, is confidence.

Someone asked me if I'd leave when my daughter leaves for college.... I answered probably yes.

Here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/314134-boundary-setting-question-35.html#post3934330

My love for WW is pretty badly damaged. I never believed in a "magical" "soulmate" kinda love in the first place. My motivation to stay and make it work is all about my daughter. I'm not some sniveling guy who's confidence is destroyed by my WW's betrayal and is begging for approval for her...no it's about providing a proper family home for my daughter. My WW can...maybe I shouldn't post that ^^ not nice. What I want to do is rebuild love. Right now? Yeah we're both doing our best to fake a lot of it I think. Even when I did cry for a week grieving the M, sure I was grieving for the loss of a spouse, but a huge part of it was grieving over the loss of the family my daughter would be raised in. THAT is what I'm fighting for, and as long as we still provide a nurturing home, it's the #1 priority for me...as long as I'm not going crazy. OM being in class? Yeah, that'll slowly drive me crazy. I can handle some small amount of that..but not much...like if he's there tomorrow I'm going ape **** on the email ^^

....

Geesh - I just re-read that and I hope I don't sound like a pompous speech writer for Tony Robbins or anything...lol

Naw man, its all good I commend anyone who values family and gives it everything they have before throwing in the towel. You are a brave man for taking on what you are taking on..I'm pulling for you.

April 20, 2012

That last part means a lot NH. Honestly. And ya know what, man? I'm pulling for you, too. I hate that this crap happened to us. I hate that they simply didn't have the courage to confront the issues BEFORE their A's. However, that's not the reality. This is. If you feel it is honorable and right to fight for your M due to your daughter...ya know what? I don't give a flying f_ck what anyone says from here on out. You do what YOU have to do. Peace, brother.

April 20, 2012

What happened at the attorneys office? What info did you get?

April 20, 2012

NH.....I hope your night with your wife goes great.

April 20, 2012

Well, right now I am not offering any advice actually...I'm going through a lot myself, so I can't say what NH should do. It's just that I see a lot of "all or nothing" with many of your posts, and while you're probably right a lot of the times, NH needs to learn from his own mistakes in order to be sure he is doing the right thing if he divorces his wife. If he leaves without trying what he needs to try, he will probably spend his life wondering if he made a mistake.

We are all individuals, Sunny. There is no one prescription for this problem. I guess I don't group all cheating husbands and wives and claim what one cheater does, the other one will do the same.

I think what is happening is that all of the people (or most, anyway) who have been through this sees what happens. The BS goes back and forth and justifies what their spouse does and eventually, the BS sees what is before them, which a lot of the time, seems to be a WW/H who does not try half as hard as the BS does to make the marriage work (I am not saying that all WW/Hs are like this, but some are, no doubt). Really, people are who they are and since no one puts a gun to the WW/H's head, they have made a conscious choice to betray their spouse, so I don't think it is too out of the realm of thinking that when a BS seems to not be really trying to save the marriage, this could indicate their commitment to make it work. People who have been through this (2 times for me w XH) see the futility in doing the same thing over and over and over and over and not getting anywhere. Most of the time, when people get better (heal, move forward, etc.) they may make 10 steps forward and 5 steps back, but they are moving forward. The BS who justifies, rationalizes, etc.takes 5 steps forward and if they are lucky, they take 5 steps back, but more often take 10 steps backward It is hard to watch people do what you have done and know the pain involved without trying to help them see the signs.

When posters try to get a BS to see the things that are so apparent, they have seen a lot of the same thing and are trying to help. I see your point, because I sure did not want to believe what was in front of me, but most will eventually and then they will be the ones to say what the new BSs should be looking at or doing.

April 20, 2012

The first time he cheated I forgave him with one condition - that IF it ever happened again - I would D him without any conversation. And that's what I did after 20 years of being M to him.

I had a boundary and I stuck to it! It nearly killed me - but I knew I didn't deserve to live with a serial cheater! I had my integrity and I knew I'd be compromising if I stayed.

He begged and pleaded - I was done!

Once is forgivable - twice is on purpose!

And he was like NH's wife - he wasn't really sorry he did it - he was only sorry he got caught!

When they show no conscience and no remorse - you can't make them feel sorry for what they did - because that narcississtic gene won't allow them to feel anything for others - only that sense of entitlement for themselves - even at all costs! And THAT attitude is the one who cheats again and again.

They never think they need to suffer consequences. And they certainly don't like OWNING how they participated!

This was your best posting Sunny. Great honesty. Showed a more "human side." But at the same time I have to ask . . . why do you not extend the same courtesy you allowed yourself the first time he cheated on you to those who post here who are encountering their spouses first affair?

Your husband was a serial cheater who, as you pointed out . . . wasn't really sorry, but was only sorry he got caught. Surely, you'd have to admit that there are those out here trying to keep their marriages together who aren't dealing with the serial cheater or a narcissist . . . but instead, an individual who screwed up this one time?

April 20, 2012

This was your best posting Sunny. Great honesty. Showed a more "human side." But at the same time I have to ask . . . why do you not extend the same courtesy you allowed yourself the first time he cheated on you to those who post here who are encountering their spouses first affair?

Your husband was a serial cheater who, as you pointed out . . . wasn't really sorry, but was only sorry he got caught. Surely, you'd have to admit that there are those out here trying to keep their marriages together who aren't dealing with the serial cheater or a narcissist . . . but instead, an individual who screwed up this one time?

BK - NH has stated his wife also cheated before and he caught her then and forgave her that first time...

I haven't suggested NH get D until he pointed out this info last night...

I do have a VERY human side... Even though you may not think so.

I don't normally encourage D for posters here unless they exhaust avenues of fixing what is broken... D is difficult, yes. But it isn't the end of the world. In fact, for me - it allowed me a ton of freedom. Freedom from the constant worry of "could he possibly be cheating again?"

Peace of mind can't be bought. I've learned to embrace this new life and am happy to say it was worth all the pain in order to get to this happy place.

The D wasn't the end - it was MY beginning.

April 20, 2012

Even with posting to Belle - I don't presume or encourage her to D - I encourage her to be honest, to take action to reconnect with her H and to change.

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