Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Dafa, I think the bigger truth is pretty people just get away with crap because they are pretty or rich. Kim Kardashian is a beautiful woman. But she is pretty douche. At least she doesn't beat other people though but she gets away with all kinds of strange behavior. I am sure there are many plain young teachers that have difficulty in dating that do not abuse their position and turn to young kids sexually. These would be healthy people. It seems to me, no matter their looks, both plain and pretty, there are psychological issues on both ends, unhealthiness on both ends. Looks do not preclude the crazy either way. I simply do not understand women that prey on young boys anymore then I understand men that prey on young girls. In the eyes of women, a timid ugly guy is simply a silly uninteresting guy, while a timid pretty guy is mysterious and that is sexy! On the contrary, men will tend to decouple these things and hence always (correctly) assess the girl as timid, regardless of being ugly or pretty. I'm not sure how many women would call a guy "silly" just because he was timid. They might not be interested in him, but that's different then describing him with an adjective that has nothing to do with his timidness. I also think you have to put the context of how women are attracted to different things. My friends and I all have different ideas about what we find attractive. I tend to like tall, lean guys with that geek-chic look and thick black horn rimmed glasses or all american men types. My one cousin likes thicker guys that are kind of Jack Black like and portly. My other thread is a beautiful tall Indian girl and she always dates short white guys and is married now to a short white guy. My best friend really likes asian men. What one girl calls "pretty" might not cut it for another one. I think women can appriopiate asses someone who is simply timid just as wel las men can.
ThaWholigan Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Handsome is subjective. I have known girls who believe me to be handsome. I've met girls who think I am ugly. It's never as black-and-white. Chris Brown gets away with it because he is famous, rich, and talented - on top of being a good looking guy (I think he's over 6 foot too???). Being good-looking is just one figment of the whole. Factor in other qualities, attributes and achievements and you have the makings of an extremely attractive man, regardless of the flaws that threaten to destroy their character.
Mme. Chaucer Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I don't know, I don't think Casey Anthony lucked out and got 12 low self esteem people on her jury. She was obviously guilty and was given a walk anyways, the same thing happens with women in teacher abuse cases. Usually the attractive ones are given light sentences or set free while the ugly are treated much harsher, I read about some poor woman getting 20 years for sleeping with an underage guy who wanted to sleep with her. There definitely seems to be some serious bias going on, either status or looks related. I won't argue at all that good looks don't make things much easier across the board for people. In the context of this thread, though, I meant to point out that real people who stay in physically abusive relationships are not often doing so because of the looks of the abuser. But, I do think that the stupid tweets or whatever cited in that link were referring to his looks, as in "oooh, he's so hot he can beat my ass anytime.: I think we all agree (except maybe the OP) that the tweets represent a carefully picked selection of sad and brainless ones.
Dafa Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Dafa, I think the bigger truth is pretty people just get away with crap because they are pretty or rich. Kim Kardashian is a beautiful woman. But she is pretty douche. At least she doesn't beat other people though but she gets away with all kinds of strange behavior. They do get away with it, yes. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The interesting discussion lies in trying to figure out how and through that, trying to find a way to suppress that bias. Now let's discuss your example for a bit. From whom and what exactly does she get away with? I would say most of the people who see her shows are women... Or are you telling there is a significant portion of men viewers of the show? Men don't care what she does in the show. And she gets away with what? She just lavishes in the (superficial) luxuries that the money she has can afford. Same way as an ugly woman with her money would. Then why doesn't this ugly rich woman have a show? Let's be honest, she has that TV show because of her body, namely her a$$. Or perhaps i'm not fully understanding the reach of your example. Finally, In the danger of speaking for most many men, we all know she is a douche. But she is freaking hot (to some men a bit more than others). We, as men, see that clearly. You think the men she "nails" are there because of her personality? No, they are there because she is exotically hot, despite her personality. They consciously know that and simply decide they are willing to withstand the personality quirks for the sake of having a relationship with one such as her. Pay attention that in the last phrase, i'm objectfying her. Why? I bet men view her as a gathering of very pretty assets with the bonus of one of them being very very rare. They see her as a group of things, not as a whole. But this is my speculation in regards to her and women such as her. I could go on about her as a phenomenon but this is an already significant wall of text. I am sure there are many plain young teachers that have difficulty in dating that do not abuse their position and turn to young kids sexually. These would be healthy people. It seems to me, no matter their looks, both plain and pretty, there are psychological issues on both ends, unhealthiness on both ends. Looks do not preclude the crazy either way. I simply do not understand women that prey on young boys anymore then I understand men that prey on young girls. Of course there are, thank god! My attempt in the rationale i presented was to try and figure out what can possibly go on in people's unconscious minds that justifies these facts. In my view, the two teachers are most definitely not psychologically sound. The point i'm trying to make is that this bias we are discussing may have quite preverse effects in people's assessment of things, even subconsciously. I'm not sure how many women would call a guy "silly" just because he was timid. They might not be interested in him, but that's different then describing him with an adjective that has nothing to do with his timidness. I also think you have to put the context of how women are attracted to different things. My friends and I all have different ideas about what we find attractive. I tend to like tall, lean guys with that geek-chic look and thick black horn rimmed glasses or all american men types. My one cousin likes thicker guys that are kind of Jack Black like and portly. My other thread is a beautiful tall Indian girl and she always dates short white guys and is married now to a short white guy. My best friend really likes asian men. What one girl calls "pretty" might not cut it for another one. I think women can appriopiate asses someone who is simply timid just as wel las men can. That example is admittedly over-simplistic, no doubt about it. Particularly the word "silly" is not the one i would use but my english vocabulary only goes so far... I'll give you the reason why i used the pretty shy Vs the ugly shy: Some years ago, out of boredom (was working abroad at the time so nothing to do), i was watching the "E!" channel and they were showing one of this top25 lists. In this case it was the top25 hottest young stars. One of them was the actor that played anakin in the new star wars trilogy. At a given point of the talk about him, one of the interviewed women was saying something like this: "Oh, he always has that shy look, it gives him a mysterious way about him and that is so sexy!" What immediately came to my mind are those throngs of not so attractive men who are equally shy but that shyness is not sexy in them. It is only sexy in that dude, why? Because he is pretty. My theory is that, as i said before, women tend to be unable to decouple these things one from the other. This example, while recent, is pretty eloquent of this idea (i.e., women being unable to decouple) that i have for quite some time and so far has always held itself as true. At least in my experience.
Dafa Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Handsome is subjective. I have known girls who believe me to be handsome. I've met girls who think I am ugly. It's never as black-and-white. Chris Brown gets away with it because he is famous, rich, and talented - on top of being a good looking guy (I think he's over 6 foot too???). Being good-looking is just one figment of the whole. Factor in other qualities, attributes and achievements and you have the makings of an extremely attractive man, regardless of the flaws that threaten to destroy their character. I disagree with you. Yes, there is a subjective component to "handsome", no doubt. But this component is "mounted" on top of a more absolute value. In other words, you can be a 7 to someone and a 5 to someone else but i very much doubt you are an 8 to someone and a 4 to someone else, given equal information about your physical appearance. Now when you say "A given woman will find me ugly while another will find me handsome". Take heed that the equation people perform in this circumstance is "measuring" your value and then comparing it to the one they think they are. A woman who is a 9 will categorize a man who is a 6 as ugly, while a woman who is a 4 or 5 will probably find the 6 as handsome. At this point we can also discuss the ability of people to self-judge and from where does that assessment stems from, but that's another discussion.
ThaWholigan Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I disagree with you. Yes, there is a subjective component to "handsome", no doubt. But this component is "mounted" on top of a more absolute value. In other words, you can be a 7 to someone and a 5 to someone else but i very much doubt you are an 8 to someone and a 4 to someone else, given equal information about your physical appearance. Now when you say "A given woman will find me ugly while another will find me handsome". Take heed that the equation people perform in this circumstance is "measuring" your value and then comparing it to the one they think they are. A woman who is a 9 will categorize a man who is a 6 as ugly, while a woman who is a 4 or 5 will probably find the 6 as handsome. At this point we can also discuss the ability of people to self-judge and from where does that assessment stems from, but that's another discussion. I've had 8s and 9s say they think I look good, and have had 4s and 5s say they don't like me, and vice versa. It's never been absolute in my experiences. I don't even know what my rating is, I have conflicting messages all the time. I find really pretty girls and really unattractive (to me anyway) girls like me, whereas average girls don't seem to bother with me much.
Negative Nancy Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Men in here complaining about how a hot guy can away with everything easily come across as hypocritical because how many men you see actually tripping over their own feet to please a pretty woman and bend over backwards to open the door for her while slamming that same door into the face of the plain jane. Men are swayed much easier than women because how often have I read comments about abusive, yet hot women: "oh yeah, she can tie me up / spank me/ use me anytime she wants" just cos she's hot
Woggle Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Men in here complaining about how a hot guy can away with everything easily come across as hypocritical because how many men you see actually tripping over their own feet to please a pretty woman and bend over backwards to open the door for her while slamming that same door into the face of the plain jane. Men are swayed much easier than women because how often have I read comments about abusive, yet hot women: "oh yeah, she can tie me up / spank me/ use me anytime she wants" just cos she's hot Both genders are swayed by looks but if Megan Fox beat the crap out of her husband to the point where he had to be hospitalized I doubt she would have many male supporters.
Content Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I've had 8s and 9s say they think I look good, and have had 4s and 5s say they don't like me, and vice versa. It's never been absolute in my experiences. I don't even know what my rating is, I have conflicting messages all the time. I find really pretty girls and really unattractive (to me anyway) girls like me, whereas average girls don't seem to bother with me much. Yep that's why i dotn get caught up in leagues when it comes to looks..ive had women i thought were out of my league all over me and women i wouldn't give a second look nasty to me because they thought i was hitting on them
ascendotum Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Men in here complaining about how a hot guy can away with everything easily come across as hypocritical because how many men you see actually tripping over their own feet to please a pretty woman and bend over backwards to open the door for her while slamming that same door into the face of the plain jane. Its not quite as bad as slamming the door into plain jane's face' but yes many guys can turn into suck holes for a pretty face. I find its more women who have the loser/creep vs great guy assesment of men, then guys do of women. With guys its more a case of yes I'd do her or nah I'm not interested, rather then assess the plain jane as a loser. Men are swayed much easier than women because how often have I read comments about abusive, yet hot women: "oh yeah, she can tie me up / spank me/ use me anytime she wants" just cos she's hot lol. you so have it wrong here. This is not abuse. Its consential s&m, with both partners enjoying the pain/pleasure. Its not like an abusive guy giving his gf a backhander and telling her to shut the f*** up or putting her down all the time with nasty comments designed to erode her self esteem.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I think we all agree (except maybe the OP) that the tweets represent a carefully picked selection of sad and brainless ones. I don't agree. I don't think that it's that simple. I think that a few girls are posting probably what a lot of girls who are fans of Chris Brown are thinking. And since he is popular, and my guess he has more female fans then male, I do think it speaks of a cavilier attitude toward abuse or a personal belief system in low self esteem. And these girls open the door for men to also have a cavilier attitude toward it. Could you imagine what would happen if guys said that stuff in the reverse? "Oh, I'd so punch her in the eye haha." There might have been only 25 tweets. That doesn't mean that only 25 girls think that way.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Dafa They do get away with it, yes. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The interesting discussion lies in trying to figure out how and through that, trying to find a way to suppress that bias. I'm not sure I follow this. From whom and what exactly does she get away with? I would say most of the people who see her shows are women... Or are you telling there is a significant portion of men viewers of the show? Men don't care what she does in the show. In general being self absorbed and selfish and self indulgent. A less attractive woman would be casterated for behaving like that. Someone like Kim can because she is simply goregous. It doesn't matter who is watching her show, her looks get her by regardless. Although I know that interest in celebrities is not something that is only driven by women. I hear a lot of men gossiping about celebrity stuff sometimes just as much as I hear women. *sometimes*. I still don't think men do it as much AS women do, but I think men have grown into part of the celebrity culture we have. She is actually a very uninteresting person in my opinion. Let's be honest, she has that TV show because of her body, namely her a$$. Or perhaps i'm not fully understanding the reach of your example. That's exactly what I'm saying. Finally, In the danger of speaking for most many men, we all know she is a douche. But she is freaking hot (to some men a bit more than others). We, as men, see that clearly. You think the men she "nails" are there because of her personality? No, they are there because she is exotically hot, despite her personality. They consciously know that and simply decide they are willing to withstand the personality quirks for the sake of having a relationship with one such as her. Pay attention that in the last phrase, i'm objectfying her. This is my point. She is hot so she just gets away with stuff. It doesn't matter if these men that date her don't really like her personality. They still date her. However, I will say that if that's what is happening with the men she dates, then these guys are no less douche themselves for treating anyone else like that. Even Kim. There was an article on Tim Tebow I was reading and there was something about how Kim had tried to get a date with God Loving Virgin Tim and he turned her down. Probably a good lesson for her that looks don't get you everything. And a good lesson to show that there are men out there that will think more of other values then just looks. Why? I bet men view her as a gathering of very pretty assets with the bonus of one of them being very very rare. They see her as a group of things, not as a whole. That is disturbing on many levels. That is disturbing for her and if that's how men do and see women as long as they are hot enough, that's not saying much for these men either. Of course there are, thank god! My attempt in the rationale i presented was to try and figure out what can possibly go on in people's unconscious minds that justifies these facts. In my view, the two teachers are most definitely not psychologically sound. The point i'm trying to make is that this bias we are discussing may have quite preverse effects in people's assessment of things, even subconsciously. I don't think people are rationalizing who can and can't get boyfriends. Especially when most people understand that in the real world, sometimes less attractive women have bfs and sometimes really hot girls don't. I think it's the simple fact of, "she's so pretty!". That example is admittedly over-simplistic, no doubt about it. Particularly the word "silly" is not the one i would use but my english vocabulary only goes so far... I'll give you the reason why i used the pretty shy Vs the ugly shy: Some years ago, out of boredom (was working abroad at the time so nothing to do), i was watching the "E!" channel and they were showing one of this top25 lists. In this case it was the top25 hottest young stars. One of them was the actor that played anakin in the new star wars trilogy. At a given point of the talk about him, one of the interviewed women was saying something like this: "Oh, he always has that shy look, it gives him a mysterious way about him and that is so sexy!" What immediately came to my mind are those throngs of not so attractive men who are equally shy but that shyness is not sexy in them. It is only sexy in that dude, why? Because he is pretty. My theory is that, as i said before, women tend to be unable to decouple these things one from the other. This example, while recent, is pretty eloquent of this idea (i.e., women being unable to decouple) that i have for quite some time and so far has always held itself as true. At least in my experience. I will have to think about this more. I don't think that women can't distinguish between things. But women might over romantize certain qualities sometimes. Maybe that's what you mean?
Woggle Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Kim Kardashian does not appeal to me in the least but I would guess she is more popular with women than men though I am really shocked she didn't become some hero after her divorce.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Why would she have become a hero Woggle? What type of wome ndo appeal to you?
Woggle Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Why would she have become a hero Woggle? What type of wome ndo appeal to you? I though after the divorce she would have been celebrated as some strong and independent woman. Some women that appeal to me are Mila Kunis, Adrianna Lima and I used to have a crush on Marisa Tomei back in the day. Kardashian is just a fake looking entitled princess to be honest.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I though after the divorce she would have been celebrated as some strong and independent woman. Some women that appeal to me are Mila Kunis, Adrianna Lima and I used to have a crush on Marisa Tomei back in the day. Kardashian is just a fake looking entitled princess to be honest. Strange because I always put Kim K. in the same spot regarding looks as Mila Kunis, Adrianna Lima and Marisa Tomei. Marisa Tomei is very much a beautiful woman even though she is older then the other ones you listed. They are all dark and sultry. Women are celebrated for being strong and independent when they are actually strong and independent. Take Gabriel Gifford for one. She is a strong, independent woman while also having an amazing man as her partner.
Woggle Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Strange because I always put Kim K. in the same spot regarding looks as Mila Kunis, Adrianna Lima and Marisa Tomei. Marisa Tomei is very much a beautiful woman even though she is older then the other ones you listed. They are all dark and sultry. Women are celebrated for being strong and independent when they are actually strong and independent. Take Gabriel Gifford for one. She is a strong, independent woman while also having an amazing man as her partner. I think the fact that she is happily married would disqualify her in some feminists eyes. My mother says that happily married is just a code word for glorified slave. Kim has nothing in common with those women. They are all classy while she is just obnoxious. Marisa Tomei looked good in My Cousin Vinny playing a guidette though.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I think the fact that she is happily married would disqualify her in some feminists eyes. My mother says that happily married is just a code word for glorified slave. Kim has nothing in common with those women. They are all classy while she is just obnoxious. Marisa Tomei looked good in My Cousin Vinny playing a guidette though. Interesting. I wouldn't call any of those women "classy". Although I do think that the three other women obviously have skill and talent while Kim K doesn't have much of either but looks. My mom loved being married Woggle. When my dad died, she was lost for a while without him. Never thought about a life without him. Dated him, and only him, since she was 17/18. Not all women feel the same about marriage.
Dafa Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I'm not sure I follow this. In this point i admit that there indeed is a positive bias towards pretty people (male or female). I also state that trying to understand how this bias pops up in society (e.g., ugly teacher getting 20 years and pretty one getting much less) can be important to avoid it. In general being self absorbed and selfish and self indulgent. A less attractive woman would be casterated for behaving like that. Someone like Kim can because she is simply goregous. It doesn't matter who is watching her show, her looks get her by regardless. Although I know that interest in celebrities is not something that is only driven by women. I hear a lot of men gossiping about celebrity stuff sometimes just as much as I hear women. *sometimes*. I still don't think men do it as much AS women do, but I think men have grown into part of the celebrity culture we have. Aren't there more similar shows to this one? I vaguely remember there being a reality show that was based on the "desperate housewives" TV series. In this reality show they walked around filming the dramas of these housewives, whose husbands brought home the bacon. Wasn't there also another with wives of Rockstars? These are two examples. Were these women as hot as Kim Kardashian? My point here is that the show is not a celebration of her, it's a celebration of that life-style. They just happen to "use" her because she is exotically hot. She is actually a very uninteresting person in my opinion. I think so too. This is my point. She is hot so she just gets away with stuff. It doesn't matter if these men that date her don't really like her personality. They still date her. However, I will say that if that's what is happening with the men she dates, then these guys are no less douche themselves for treating anyone else like that. Even Kim. There was an article on Tim Tebow I was reading and there was something about how Kim had tried to get a date with God Loving Virgin Tim and he turned her down. Probably a good lesson for her that looks don't get you everything. And a good lesson to show that there are men out there that will think more of other values then just looks. I'm not an American so i haven't even heard of the dude. However, i did go read a bit about him. Pardon my cynicism but i bet there's a lot more going on there than what is known... I would say that this date was not genuine, it probably was a publicity stunt and as such, she just shrugged it off. That is disturbing on many levels. That is disturbing for her and if that's how men do and see women as long as they are hot enough, that's not saying much for these men either. Here i may have not explained myself in the best way. First off: Her personality may be very interesting to some men, as my personality while most likely not interesting to Kim Kardashian probably is quite interesting to other "types" of women. So some men may find her truly interesting, apart from hot. But what i meant with my comment is the following: Most men who drool over her, do so despite her personality. They don't care about it, they objectify her. And the men who she actually dates probably see her as a trophy wife, nothing more. I don't think people are rationalizing who can and can't get boyfriends. Especially when most people understand that in the real world, sometimes less attractive women have bfs and sometimes really hot girls don't. I think it's the simple fact of, "she's so pretty!". I don't think so. I would even say that if it was a question of "she's so pretty" then perhaps the members of the juri who were not as pretty would react in the exact opposite, i.e.: "Hmm, you are prettier than me so here is an added year to the sentence just to level the playing field! Ah!" Something along these lines. I believe that this bias is unconscious. Meaning people most of the time are not aware that they are deciding under its influence, unless confronted by it. I will have to think about this more. I don't think that women can't distinguish between things. But women might over romantize certain qualities sometimes. Maybe that's what you mean? Yes, exactly. I argue that women indeed can't distinguish (perhaps even on a subconscious level) between physical and mental attraction. And as such, their appreciation of a given man's personality will factor in the way he looks. I also argue that, on the other hand, men distinguish these two things quite easily. They appreciate a woman's physical appearance but that does not influence their assessment of that woman's personality. My opinion of Kim kardashian's personality did/will not change because she is handsome. Having said this, i'm not a woman so you'll always be a "dark continent" to me.
Dafa Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I've had 8s and 9s say they think I look good, and have had 4s and 5s say they don't like me, and vice versa. It's never been absolute in my experiences. I don't even know what my rating is, I have conflicting messages all the time. I find really pretty girls and really unattractive (to me anyway) girls like me, whereas average girls don't seem to bother with me much. Well, then i must admit that my theory does not hold true in your case. Still, you have to admit that there is some "absolute" here. It can't be a coincidence that most of the hot women have boyfriends that are quite handsome... And vice versa. And same with less pretty people. What i mean is that there is very significant correlation between your physical attractiveness and that of your partner, in terms of more general consensual appreciations. Perhaps in your case you have some exotic physical trait (skin color, specific racial feature, i don't know) that either is very appreciated or not much liked. But those exotic traits are not common at all. As for judging one's own "rating". That is a whole other discussion...
Dafa Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I think the fact that she is happily married would disqualify her in some feminists eyes. My mother says that happily married is just a code word for glorified slave. Kim has nothing in common with those women. They are all classy while she is just obnoxious. Marisa Tomei looked good in My Cousin Vinny playing a guidette though. That remark about your mother. I wonder if that is not due to the still patriarchal (please correct my english here!) nature of her generation... I also wonder if those feminists you speak of aren't the same from that same generation. Indeed, Kim K has nothing to do with any of those women. Each of them have specific styles which appear to be congruent with a personality that they show to the world.
Ross MwcFan Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Seems fake, why would everyone be saying pretty much the exact same line?
FrustratedStandards Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Not true. If he is RICH then he can get away with MOST things haha I personally could let a a lot slide, but if he cheats or god forbid ever lays a finger on me, i'm outsie, and i'll make sure his reputation is too. 1
Negative Nancy Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 Make-up and celebrity talk, vain and bitchy? Welcome back, Jackie.
nofool4u Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 Congratulations, you just found out that there are at least 25 female retards on the internet. Who would have thought? Oh, it goes beyond 25 women on the internet and the Chris Brown thing. The title of the thread is pretty accurate. Women say they want a nice guy, but they will put up with alot of crap from a guy if he is "hot". Good think I'm dead sexy, but I'm too nice for most women;)
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