What is middle class?

[Emilia]

Us Americans are crass; we only care about economic class. Not social. I know England has chavs. Us Americans we only care about economic class; we don't give a rats ass about what is refined or cultured or aristocracy. At least I don't.

 

I don't think it's true for all Americans so I'm interested in others' views too.

[Els]

I'm not sure about middle class, but currently the bf and I are living quite comfortably on a total of $3000/month (I contribute about $800/month from my student allowance and he $2200/month from his wages, and he uses the remaining $1800 for savings or money for his parents). This includes rent in a 2-bdroom house in a nice suburb, a decent (albeit used) car, insurance, new (fairly powerful) computers for both of us, eating out quite often, local entertainment, and several domestic vacations. I agree that 'class' is more a state of mind than anything else, if you aren't talking technicalities. I can totally envision a couple being broke all the time on $3000/month, because they just need to have all the latest gadgetry and branded clothes. That couple would be lower-class simply because they'd be in debt all the time.

[Sanman]

I would say between 35k and 150...a lot of guys in my field make at least 50k minimum up to 150k and we run around looking dirty doing a job most people think we get paid chump change for but we actually get paid really well.

 

I work for a lot of wealthy clients in my day as well, and most of the people I have seen who have money are far more resourceful and conservative with their dinero than the middle class. I see guys with huge houses driving 84 mercedes or toyotas and their wives driving an 2001 mini vans lol and they just roll the bucket into this giant house/castle...snd they are the most frugal of people. Of course they tend to have nice cars too, but they don't drive them to work sometimes . They don't worry about "looking" like they got it from what I've seen other than where they live and their home.

 

It's really the middle class who tries to show off like they have more, so whenever I see someone with an expensive car and looking all blinged out I first think middle class...unless I'm in a wealthy neighborhood, the wealthy people really spend their money wisely that I've seen or at least make sure they have the big things covered first like their homes where the investment is worth it. I still feel dirt poor however though compared to these people even though I do pretty well

 

Crappiest most eccentric dressers in my experience have definitely been very wealthy, which I find very strange, they can dress like bums!

 

 

I have to agree with this. The upper middle class area I grew up in had fancier things than some of the wealthy I have met. They rarely try and spend on trendy things and prefer to conserve their wealth on land, property, or investments.

[florence of suburbia]

I don't think it's true for all Americans so I'm interested in others' views too.

 

I'm from the US. We don't really have a class system like the one in the UK.

 

For example, in the US you can't tell much about a person's background based on accent, aside from what part of the country they're from. For example George W. Bush grew up "upper class" and we all know what his accent sounds like.

 

It's my understanding that class in England comes from the tradition of the landed gentry and people have titles and such. Of course the US never had that sort of tradition.

 

The closest we have is the concept of "old money," such as the Boston Brahmin or the "blue bloods" on the Main Line in Philadelphia, but most Americans wouldn't even know what that means, let alone consider it important.

Edited February 16, 2012 by florence of suburbia

[Emilia]

I'm from the US. We don't really have a class system like the one in the UK.

 

For example, in the US you can't tell much about a person's background based on accent, aside from what part of the country they're from. For example George W. Bush grew up "upper class" and we all know what his accent sounds like.

 

It's my understanding that class in England comes from the tradition of the landed gentry and people have titles and such. Of course the US never had that sort of tradition.

 

The closest we have is the concept of "old money," such as the Boston Brahmin or the "blue bloods" on the Main Line in Philadelphia, but most Americans wouldn't even know what that means, let alone consider it important.

 

I understand that money talks more in the US than background but surely how 'refined' (to quote a previous poster) someone is matters somewhat? George W Bush is certainly not seen as upper class in the UK, barely middle class because of he comes across crass and crass is low class.

 

Yes you have old money on the East Coast but aristocracy is just one example. Surely you distinguish between classes of people based on more than just finances?

[zengirl]

I understand that money talks more in the US than background but surely how 'refined' (to quote a previous poster) someone is matters somewhat? George W Bush is certainly not seen as upper class in the UK, barely middle class because of he comes across crass and crass is low class.

 

Yes you have old money on the East Coast but aristocracy is just one example. Surely you distinguish between classes of people based on more than just finances?

 

Well, George W. Bush comes from old money and while he lacked refinement, his family doesn't necessarily. He's more like a 'bad seed' than a good example of having money but no class, because the Bushes are definitely 'old wealth.'

 

There are distinctions in the U.S. between old wealth and new wealth, between self-made wealth and inherited wealth, between certain social circles and how they behave, regardless of money, and distinguishing social 'class' on that, but not monetary class, which in jargon, is generally what Americans refer to with "middle class."

 

There are "middle class" values here -- very different from the UK -- generally having to do with work and owning property and savings and whatnot. "Middle class" in the U.S. is not going to be overly mannered, as it's often what even, say, very rich politicians "pretend" to be by being "folksy." So, a lot of times George W. Bush, for instance, was imitating middle class attitudes, even though he and his family are NOT middle class---they are rich, with inherited wealth.

 

So. . . while I wouldn't say class is determined SOLELY by money in the U.S., the values here don't mirror the U.K. much at all in terms of what one might call 'manners' (I mean that in the view of Jane Austen type comedy of manners rather than just simple kindness or treating each other well) --- it's just not in our cultural background to be too fussy about that, and there are too many different sets of manners here, with so many different backgrounds filtering into the U.S.

 

You'll also find major differences in locales. What may be classy in one place might be seen as snobbish in another. For example, I have family in Connecticut. I think there you'll see some better correlations to British manners (still not entirely similar) among the wealthy and upper middle class. But where I live in the South, the same manners would be seen as snobbish and cold and distant and so forth. Yet there is a complex and very real code of manners expected in many social circles here---it's just different.

[Emilia]

 

You'll also find major differences in locales. What may be classy in one place might be seen as snobbish in another. For example, I have family in Connecticut. I think there you'll see some better correlations to British manners (still not entirely similar) among the wealthy and upper middle class. But where I live in the South, the same manners would be seen as snobbish and cold and distant and so forth. Yet there is a complex and very real code of manners expected in many social circles here---it's just different.

 

It's the same in the UK, the North in generally is poorer and what is seen as good manners in the South (wealthier, large percentage of people are middle class) is seen as snobbish and cold up North.

 

What amazed me when I worked in upmarket hospitality places while I was travelling was that rich Americans couldn't eat with a knife and fork. It is very unusual in the UK for someone who has money because they will have a lot of pressure on them while eating out in public to know how to.

 

Your post explains it, thanks.

[xxoo]

Surely you distinguish between classes of people based on more than just finances?

 

Not really. Power is important, too, but power and finances are closely linked.

 

The Bush family is considered solidly upper class here, despite being crass.

[zengirl]

It's the same in the UK, the North in generally is poorer and what is seen as good manners in the South (wealthier, large percentage of people are middle class) is seen as snobbish and cold up North.

 

Yes. But we have more space, more areas, and more cultures all mixed up (our country is just geographically and populously larger---that's not a criticism of the UK in any way) so it's more confusing than the UK North/South thing, which I'm aware of. I didn't mean to imply UK manners were uniform---just much more uniform than I have found US manners to be.

 

What amazed me when I worked in upmarket hospitality places while I was travelling was that rich Americans couldn't eat with a knife and fork. It is very unusual in the UK for someone who has money because they will have a lot of pressure on them while eating out in public to know how to.

 

I don't know too many people (rich or middle class) who cannot eat with a knife and fork, though even most rich Americans these days don't worry with the fancy silverware. That said, there's very little social pressure at your own dinner table while eating out in the U.S. I wasn't aware of such pressure being so extreme even in the U.K. . . so I'm not sure I can imagine what you said. You're saying people were eating steaks with their hands?

 

Granted, you won't find many Americans cutting up french fries (I think that'd actually be bad manners to most Americans ) but I have not noticed much issue in using cutlery. Or do you mean the precise way it was used? Because no, we don't tend to have 'charm school' type manners for precise ways of using cutlery or precision in other things. Many areas have manners for ways of speaking or relating to each other or clothing or so forth among upper middle class families and 'old money' wealth.

 

Your post explains it, thanks.

[Emilia]

Or do you mean the precise way it was used? Because no, we don't tend to have 'charm school' type manners for precise ways of using cutlery or precision in other things.

 

Using a fork only and resting an elbow on the table or trying to chop up a piece of bacon with a fork and fingers (ie not using knife at all), it just isn't something you do in the UK when you are exposed to public dining.

[Emilia]

I like to eat my cereal with a fork!

 

Are you on a diet?

[zengirl]

Using a fork only and resting an elbow on the table or trying to chop up a piece of bacon with a fork and fingers (ie not using knife at all), it just isn't something you do in the UK when you are exposed to public dining.

 

Well, the bacon thing seems odd to me, mostly because the fork was used at all! In most restaurants (not fine dining), most Americans would just pick up the bacon and break it apart. That's how I eat bacon. If I were somewhere fancy, I may cut it up, but I'd feel really weird about it---then again, I don't see bacon at fancy places much.

 

Elbows on the table isn't really a U.S. thing. I didn't even think it was ALL that worried about in Britain now, maybe at somewhere terribly posh. Most Americans don't like poshness---you'll notice even many expensive or exclusive restaurants here are not particularly 'posh.' It's not in our culture.

 

Then again, in Korea and Japan, it's terrible to use your fingers at all (just fine because things are always pre-cut if chopsticks won't do it and it's not really hard to avoid) for most foods, except Western foods, like french fries and pizza and such. So, everywhere has different manners. I wouldn't pick up bacon in my hands in Korea, unless in a Western restaurant with all Westerners (because then Western manners prevail), but they'd probably cut it up to small sizes, easy to pick up with chopsticks. Slurping noodles would be rude in many U.S. restaurants, but is entirely polite and expected in Japan. Manners just vary.

[Emilia]

Well, the bacon thing seems odd to me, mostly because the fork was used at all! In most restaurants (not fine dining), most Americans would just pick up the bacon and break it apart. That's how I eat bacon. If I were somewhere fancy, I may cut it up, but I'd feel really weird about it---then again, I don't see bacon at fancy places much.

 

Elbows on the table isn't really a U.S. thing. I didn't even think it was ALL that worried about in Britain now, maybe at somewhere terribly posh. Most Americans don't like poshness---you'll notice even many expensive or exclusive restaurants here are not particularly 'posh.' It's not in our culture.

 

Then again, in Korea and Japan, it's terrible to use your fingers at all (just fine because things are always pre-cut if chopsticks won't do it and it's not really hard to avoid) for most foods, except Western foods, like french fries and pizza and such. So, everywhere has different manners. I wouldn't pick up bacon in my hands in Korea, unless in a Western restaurant with all Westerners (because then Western manners prevail), but they'd probably cut it up to small sizes, easy to pick up with chopsticks. Slurping noodles would be rude in many U.S. restaurants, but is entirely polite and expected in Japan. Manners just vary.

 

Manners vary yes but they tend to follow local customs. I eat with my hands in Sri Lanka and I prefer it too but in a restaurant in London (not fine dining, just your average mid-week dinner out) everyone would stare at me. It just isn't something you do.

 

I've never heard of any Western nation where bacon is broken apart by hand - or at least not in Europe. It's greasy usually, doesn't that matter? You get grease on your fingers.

 

Elbow on a table isn't a US thing but my observation was specific to very well to do rich Americans that were doing that and well to do rich Brits don't eat that way in public. Might do in front of the telly at home but too self-aware to do so in public.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Emilia

[zengirl]

Manners vary yes but they tend to follow local customs. I eat with my hands in Sri Lanka and I prefer it too but in a restaurant in London (not fine dining, just your average mid-week dinner out) everyone would stare at me. It just isn't something you do.

 

I've never heard of any Western nation where bacon is broken apart by hand.

 

Elbow on a table isn't a US thing but my observation was specific to very well to do rich Americans that were doing that and well to do rich Brits don't eat that way in public. Might do in front of the telly at home but too self-aware to do so in public.

 

I mean, I wouldn't break bacon apart by hand at a black tie dinner, but I cannot imagine people normally eating it with a knife and fork. I know many Brits (educated, middle class) and they don't do that dining out either! You wipe your fingers off on your napkin.

 

I guess maybe older folks might cut up bacon. I think they did years and years ago. But I've never seen anyone eat it that way! And, anyway, finger food -- including greasy foods -- are common in the U.S. and a staple of the middle class, I'd say!

[Emilia]

I mean, I wouldn't break bacon apart by hand at a black tie dinner, but I cannot imagine people normally eating it with a knife and fork. I know many Brits (educated, middle class) and they don't do that dining out either! You wipe your fingers off on your napkin.

 

I guess maybe older folks might cut up bacon. I think they did years and years ago. But I've never seen anyone eat it that way! And, anyway, finger food -- including greasy foods -- are common in the U.S. and a staple of the middle class, I'd say!

 

I honestly can't recall people using their fingers at restaurants and I eat out 2-3 times a week, very rarely in posh places. People break bread up, etc but bacon? No matter how you wipe your fingers the grease doesn't come off, you have to wash them in warm water.

 

Finger food is different though, you eat it standing up, not sitting down.

[aj22one]

Finger food is different though, you eat it standing up, not sitting down.

 

I eat finger foods like burgers and fries sitting down all the time. I'm in the US though...

[zengirl]

I honestly can't recall people using their fingers at restaurants and I eat out 2-3 times a week, very rarely in posh places. People break bread up, etc but bacon? No matter how you wipe your fingers the grease doesn't come off, you have to wash them in warm water.

 

Finger food is different though, you eat it standing up, not sitting down.

 

In the U.S., we eat plenty of our finger food sitting down!

 

Personally, I've never had such a fuss about bacon or found the grease didn't wipe off. I would find it odd if someone used their fingers for steak or fish fillet or green beans or something. Could be different up North, though I've never eaten bacon anywhere but a diner up there (and diners are not fancy). Even my neat freak Mom eats bacon with her hands. I do remember her cutting up french fries once on a really fancy cruise ship, but I've never thought it particularly taboo in the U.S. to eat small things with your hands. Now, I live in the Southeast, where that's especially so -- it's a barbecue culture and that seeps into everything -- but I just can't see anyone stressing about bacon. A fork + hands does sound inefficient to me though!

 

ETA: Actually, I've eaten plenty of finger food in the UK (sandwiches, fries, etc) sitting down as well. I believe I've even eaten bacon there, and no one stared at me, aghast. Might depend on the place, though.

[Emilia]

In the U.S., we eat plenty of our finger food sitting down!

 

Personally, I've never had such a fuss about bacon or found the grease didn't wipe off. I would find it odd if someone used their fingers for steak or fish fillet or green beans or something. Could be different up North, though I've never eaten bacon anywhere but a diner up there (and diners are not fancy). Even my neat freak Mom eats bacon with her hands. I do remember her cutting up french fries once on a really fancy cruise ship, but I've never thought it particularly taboo in the U.S. to eat small things with your hands. Now, I live in the Southeast, where that's especially so -- it's a barbecue culture and that seeps into everything -- but I just can't see anyone stressing about bacon. A fork + hands does sound inefficient to me though!

 

ETA: Actually, I've eaten plenty of finger food in the UK (sandwiches, fries, etc) sitting down as well. I believe I've even eaten bacon there, and no one stared at me, aghast. Might depend on the place, though.

 

No aghast, it's just... not something you do. Even in a cafe with workmen (mention them because they are usually very casual especially on a Saturday morning) with their strong tea and fry up.

 

Each to their own I guess.

 

Do you guys blow on your food to cool it down?

[Emilia]

no but I'm an american and I really like the fork. Like I do that thing you were talking about like chopping things up with a fork and fingers haha.

 

It was the funniest thing I have seen a grown man do seriously. He was a psychologist and I was trying to understand whether that had anything to do with his fear of knives

[aj22one]

 

Do you guys blow on your food to cool it down?

 

Yes. Is that considered rude? I'm genuinely curious.

[zengirl]

No aghast, it's just... not something you do. Even in a cafe with workmen (mention them because they are usually very casual especially on a Saturday morning) with their strong tea and fry up.

 

Each to their own I guess.

 

Do you guys blow on your food to cool it down?

 

I don't, but I wouldn't consider it bad manners. It just seems inefficient.

[Emilia]

Yes. Is that considered rude? I'm genuinely curious.

 

I don't think it is in parts of Europe but it is in the UK. You eat slowly if your food is hot, blowing on your food implies impatience. It is also impolite to waft your breath on your fellow diners.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Emilia

[Emilia]

Personally I don't use manners and taste to define class although I know many do (blowing on food etc low class and going to the opera or museums high class etc).

 

For me, it's mainly money and lineage helps too. Those two override all. I still consider Paris Hilton high class even though she made a sex tape (I see nothing wrong with that) and may be known as tarty because of her lineage and wealth. Wearing underwear or not has nothing to do with it.... in my opinion. Inmho you can be crass and slutty and still be high class according to wealth and family name. Other people may beg to differ.

 

Ah! This is an entirely different can of worms.

 

You will have a lot of lower middle or middle middle class people who put importance on public decorum while you will find upper class or lower class people who don't. It is usually the middle classes that hold up bourgeois values in society.

 

By the way opera or museums might imply high brow preference but it's more to do with the nature of someone's education (ie art degree graduates for example).

[Emilia]

Well I can't speak for him but we Americans love our knives. After all the best ones are named after us like the Bowie Knife haha. Guns too!

 

Yes I think I covered that in the 'woman freaks out when she sees several firearms in my house' thread.

 

Not that watching me eat pinapple or prime rib is a refined experience!

 

No I can't imagine it is

[xxoo]

The UK standards of polite table behavior are considered stuffy here in the US.

 

Outside the most formal settings, we are very relaxed on table etiquette. I attended a class on etiquette as a young teen, so I know what is and is not appropriate...but I've never been in a setting since that required such etiquette.

 

If I am ever invited to, say, the White House for dinner, however, I know not to cut with my fork or blow on my food