Can you forgive without validating the cheating?

[road]

Have you gotten a book: Surviving and Affair by Dr Harley. Google Dr has a good website forum.

 

Thing is how much are you wanting revenge against making things right?

 

Saying this to point out that are your action to divorce based on hurting her trumps the hurt to your family. Doing things based on spite is not the best way to make decisions

[BetrayedH]

Like a weekend retreat is going to magically make everything ok. Really? This is going to take actual work; not some pop-psychology marriage encounter.

 

Check out beyondaffairs.com

 

It's the only retreat I would have taken with my wife and was doing me some real good while reconciling. It's founded by a couple that experienced infidelity (the H) and reconciled. I used to go to monthly groups associated with them. Wouldn't send it to you if it weren't worthwhile.

[BetrayedH]

Have you gotten a book: Surviving and Affair by Dr Harley. Google Dr has a good website forum.

 

Thing is how much are you wanting revenge against making things right?

 

Saying this to point out that are your action to divorce based on hurting her trumps the hurt to your family. Doing things based on spite is not the best way to make decisions

 

I used to think this book was the bible in regards to infidelity. They ultimately suggest that the BS never bring up the affair again. It's a crock.

[turnera]

Like a weekend retreat is going to magically make everything ok. Really? This is going to take actual work; not some pop-psychology marriage encounter.

Wow. Really? Are you so knowledgeable about all this that you have the werewithal to make such a blanket statement?

 

fwiw, out of about 20 couples I've known who have gone to a 'pop-psychology marriage encounter,' only ONE COUPLE came away from it without altering their marriage completely. And THAT couple didn't work because the husband was secretly still cheating.

[drifter777]

Wow. Really? Are you so knowledgeable about all this that you have the werewithal to make such a blanket statement?

 

fwiw, out of about 20 couples I've known who have gone to a 'pop-psychology marriage encounter,' only ONE COUPLE came away from it without altering their marriage completely. And THAT couple didn't work because the husband was secretly still cheating.

 

For real issues, such as infidelity, they are a joke.

 

Folks: don't waste anymore space on this thread on "retreat" talk.

[DuckSoup]

Yeah, I am getting older and these are all things I have been considering for the past couple years. It makes things much more complicated then younger LS'ers can appreciate. Lot's of things simply look differently at 60 then they do at 40.

 

Anyway, I don't like feeling that all of this must be boiled down to get past it or leave. Nothing in life is that simple, that cut and dried. I think we both have to work on this just like we SHOULD have many years ago. If we can't sort it out together then it's time to end things.

 

If you are in reasonably good shape for a 60 year old, or can spend a few months dedicated to getting in really good shape, and get a prescription for Viagra if that's an issue, odds are that there are plenty of attractive, educated, financially independent women in their 40's and 50's who will be more than ready to blow your socks off.

 

And not just your socks.

 

Maybe you can even get some in their 30's if they have "daddy issues."

 

I think you are already done with this marriage but just haven't crystallized that yet. You would feel too guilty about abandoning your wife. Too bad for her. Payback and all that....you're entitled to have some chance of real happiness in your life, and it's never going to happen with your wife, ever. Even if she tells the truth after all this time, it can't make up for all those lost years.

 

You should divorce your wife, amicably if possible, and try to get what happiness and enjoyment you can out of life, spend the rest of it with people who actually care and respect you enough not to lie to you for 30 years.

[turnera]

For real issues, such as infidelity, they are a joke.

How would you even know? Have you been? Family who's been? Sheezh. Good luck.

[Darth Vader]

This pretty much sums it up. I'm not at all afraid that if I would leave that she would take up with someone else because if I decide to leave it will be final.

 

It's fear of the unknown. I think that my leaving would provide long overdue punishment for her - but I'm not sure that will satisfy my sense of justice. The key is for her to prove that her remorse for her selfish, hurtful behavior is real; that she understands no amount of justification excuses any of it. I think we may have to (finally) go into MC to find out if we can work this out.

 

 

In the mean time you could contact a lawyer to find out about your rights should you wish to live without your wife, then start working on a plan to divorce your wife, protect your assets, retirement, etc. Of course don't inform your wife or lead her to believe you are planning a possible exit strategy. You can always stop the plan/s of action at any time, this is only to protect you as much as possible as you know your wife has been unremorseful in her affair/s, she may prove to be unremorseful in trying to take you to the cleaners, so protect yourself!

[JustJoe]

Drifter, you are doing exactly what you did right after her betrayal. You are whining, wishing , praying and hoping she will magically become a remorseful cheater, but you aren't DOING anything. You beat yourself up, then complain about it being her fault, and why, oh, why, doesn't she change? So now, you are doing it again. You have come here to vent, but nothing else. You wish, hope, pray, whine, and b*tch, but take no action, except to do more of it. When are you going to take action? If she hasn't shown remorse in 20 years, what possible reason would you have, that it is going to happen now or anytime soon? Because you wish it would? I'm sorry if this is harsh, but you really need to grow a pair, and take command of your life. Stop be a whining victim, and start being your own man.

[canuckprincess]

Thanks to all for you comments and advice. I'll try to address some of the questions asked here, but it may get a bit long.

 

1) I've been in IC for a long time and only recently (past year or so) began talking with counselor about this issue. Until that day I refused to share this with anyone because of the shame I felt for being the kind of weak, limp-dicked husband who would stay with a cheating wife. As I began to work on this with my counselor I came to understand that, in addition to the shame I felt for myself, I was ashamed of my wife for her selfish, disgusting, slutty behavior.

 

2) Many of you have asked where in the process I feel I got "stuck". It's the shame. The images of her and OM still flash into my mind now and then and I respond with intense anger and disgust. I don't even tell her about it anymore and either roll over and try to sleep or head down to the couch. The thought of touching her is repulsive. This anger and disgust is fueled by the shame I feel for both myself and her behavior.

 

3) My wife never hid her cheating from me. It happened while she was vacationing with family and after the fact she told me she planned on doing it all along. When she returned she told me what she had done and that she didn't want to be married anymore. A few weeks later she changed her mind and threw herself at me, begging me to come back and assuring me her whoring around taught her how much she loved me and wanted me back. She was totally transparent because she considered what she did to be a good thing and a valuable life experience.

 

4) My initial reaction was shock. When she begged me to reconcile I was more confused than anything else. I have to take responsibility for my decision to stay and work to save our marriage. I hoped and prayed that I would forgive and forget over time. I told her that if anything like this ever happened again that I would be gone. A big motivator for staying was my desire to give my son the stable family life that I never had. Terrible reason for staying, another poor decision that I alone am responsible for.

 

Taking responsibility for these decisions has taken the form of self-loathing for making such horrible mistakes.

 

5) My wife finally began to take some responsibility for her cheating some ten years after d-day. It began with an acknowledgement that what she did hurt me and that she was sorry for that. It took another ten years for her to finally say that what she did was selfish and, while she didn't understand that then, it was wrong. I don't believe her. I think she is telling me what she thinks I need to hear and she still believes that she did nothing wrong.

 

As I said, the sticking point for me is the shame. My counselor says that my wife may not be capable of facing what I believe to be the truth. That she cannot accept that she is a cheater because she believes that she is a good person who would never do such a terrible thing. The "valuable life experience" thing is her rationalization that saves her from facing the truth.

 

My counselor has also began to focus on my inability to forgive myself. I think she sees this as potentially life threatening as I sometimes feel trapped by my anger and shame and have considered suicide as an option. I know I could never do that as it would hurt my children so much and leave them with a horrible legacy.

 

So, I'll ask again. How can we forgive our cheating spouses without validating the cheating? If you believe you have done it, how did you rationalize it in your mind? Was there something that you did to help you get to that point?

 

More than anything I'm looking for advice on forgiveness or at least somehow letting go of the anger and shame. I can't say which is harder or more important; forgiving her or forgiving myself. I strongly believe they are firmly tied together.

 

 

 

 

If your still triggering 20 years later you owe it to yourself to move on. Was it a long term affair or a one time deal? You both deserve to be happy. Be true to yourself first.

[BetheButterfly]

I am finding it impossible to forgive my wife for cheating many years ago. While I am usually able to keep it out of my thoughts because I don't think it ever happened again, I still trigger sometimes and feel the pain and anger all over again. I know I cannot change the past, but is it possible to resolve the hurt and shame I feel?

 

I've also never forgiven myself for the decision to not end the marriage. I thought that time would heal and found that time isn't enough. Now I am thinking that the only way to correct the mistake is to walk away from her all these years later. The thing holding me back is the fact that I would be punishing both of us for something that happened decades ago. I'm not sure I would be any happier, and I'd rather be happy then right.

 

This dilemma is killing me. I welcome any advice on forgiveness from fellow BS's.

 

Forgiving isn't a one time thing. It often takes making the decision repeatedly, whenever you began to think negative thoughts, to forgive. I don't think forgiveness means forgetting or allowing a person to continue to hurt you or others.

 

If she is truly not ever going to do that again, then I would say it is a good thing to forgive and continue to love her, if that is what you want to do.

 

However, if she continues to commit adultery, then I think it is perfectly understandable for you to decide to divorce her. One can forgive and be divorced at the same time. Forgiveness basically is not counting one's sins against them. However, marriage = covenant/promises/vows people make to each other. Most people vow to be faithful to each other, and it is true that cheating automatically breaks that vow.

 

You can forgive yet still consider the covenant to be broken, cause it did break. For example, if a person broke your prized possession (like a beautiful vase for example) you can definitely forgive that person, but the vase is still broken. It would be lovely if forgiving meant that the vase magically repairs itself, but that sadly doesn't happen.

 

I suggest considering the following 3 options:

 

1. Continue to decide, every time negative thoughts pop in your mind, to forgive her. Decide to make a new covenant/vow/promises with her. Obviously the old one is broken. But, what is cool is you two can make a new one! Hopefully neither you nor her will break the new one! Love her and commit to her, and decide to trust. Hopefully she will prove that she can be trusted. Some people most definitely can break trust, then earn trust again by choosing to be trustworthy. Life is a learning experience.

 

2. Don't forgive her and be filled with bitterness, which will hurt you and others, whether you divorce or stay in the marriage.

 

3. Continue to decide, every time negative thoughts pop in your mind, to forgive her. Decide not to make a new covenant with her, but instead decide to divorce her and be polite/kind to her.

 

What you decide depends on your desires, your convictions, your willingness to trust in her, her desires, her convictions, her ability to change and learn from the past, and so on.

 

What do you want to do?

 

I don't know you or her, but if she is indeed committed to never cheat again, and you are committed to not cheat on her, and you both love each other, than I hope you decide #1 and make a new covenant with her, and may it not be broken by either person.

[drifter777]

Forgiving isn't a one time thing. It often takes making the decision repeatedly, whenever you began to think negative thoughts, to forgive. I don't think forgiveness means forgetting or allowing a person to continue to hurt you or others.

 

If she is truly not ever going to do that again, then I would say it is a good thing to forgive and continue to love her, if that is what you want to do.

 

However, if she continues to commit adultery, then I think it is perfectly understandable for you to decide to divorce her. One can forgive and be divorced at the same time. Forgiveness basically is not counting one's sins against them. However, marriage = covenant/promises/vows people make to each other. Most people vow to be faithful to each other, and it is true that cheating automatically breaks that vow.

 

You can forgive yet still consider the covenant to be broken, cause it did break. For example, if a person broke your prized possession (like a beautiful vase for example) you can definitely forgive that person, but the vase is still broken. It would be lovely if forgiving meant that the vase magically repairs itself, but that sadly doesn't happen.

 

I suggest considering the following 3 options:

 

1. Continue to decide, every time negative thoughts pop in your mind, to forgive her. Decide to make a new covenant/vow/promises with her. Obviously the old one is broken. But, what is cool is you two can make a new one! Hopefully neither you nor her will break the new one! Love her and commit to her, and decide to trust. Hopefully she will prove that she can be trusted. Some people most definitely can break trust, then earn trust again by choosing to be trustworthy. Life is a learning experience.

 

2. Don't forgive her and be filled with bitterness, which will hurt you and others, whether you divorce or stay in the marriage.

 

3. Continue to decide, every time negative thoughts pop in your mind, to forgive her. Decide not to make a new covenant with her, but instead decide to divorce her and be polite/kind to her.

 

What you decide depends on your desires, your convictions, your willingness to trust in her, her desires, her convictions, her ability to change and learn from the past, and so on.

 

What do you want to do?

 

I don't know you or her, but if she is indeed committed to never cheat again, and you are committed to not cheat on her, and you both love each other, than I hope you decide #1 and make a new covenant with her, and may it not be broken by either person.

 

I appreciate when anyone takes the time to offer advice or any comment on my situation. One thing that is hard for you, and everyone else, to really understand is that my decades long struggle is not really helped by simple, one-size-fits-all suggestions or evaluations.

 

Please help me get this thread back on topic. What I've always been looking for is advice on how, or if, any BS is able to forgive their WS without validation their cheating behavior. Doesn't "I forgive you" mean that you are excusing their behavior and giving them a pass? Do you open your heart and somehow say to yourself "I guess I would have cheated if I was in that situation too" or do you harden your heart and go with "I hate what they did but am willing to trade some of my peace and happiness to avoid being alone or suffering financially". What did you do? What are you doing now?

[turnera]

See if this helps:

How to Forgive Someone When It

[mercy]

I am finding it impossible to forgive my wife for cheating many years ago. While I am usually able to keep it out of my thoughts because I don't think it ever happened again, I still trigger sometimes and feel the pain and anger all over again. I know I cannot change the past, but is it possible to resolve the hurt and shame I feel?

 

I've also never forgiven myself for the decision to not end the marriage. I thought that time would heal and found that time isn't enough. Now I am thinking that the only way to correct the mistake is to walk away from her all these years later. The thing holding me back is the fact that I would be punishing both of us for something that happened decades ago. I'm not sure I would be any happier, and I'd rather be happy then right.

 

This dilemma is killing me. I welcome any advice on forgiveness from fellow BS's.

 

I have to be honest I haven't read any other post except yours and bentnotbroken at the end of this thread.

 

You have made this infidelity a life sentence for both of you. I believe that if you truly want something then you bring it to fruition, you have not. You're punishing her for cheating and yourself for staying. Oh, sometimes you bury it but it always comes back. That's what happens when we bury things, the least little thing can trigger it right back as if it just happened.

 

I agree I don't think you're going to be happy either way, stay go makes no difference.

 

There is a thread in the spiritual section that I believe is titled, Let It Go. I honestly believe in my heart that that thread was posted just for you. When I read it I thought wow such an old T.D. Jakes sermon, wonder who God is trying to reach. It's for you, go read it, then thank pureinheart, God spoke to her and she listened.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/336851-td-jakes-let-go

Edited July 21, 2012 by mercy
wanted to add the link

[drifter777]

I have to be honest I haven't read any other post except yours and bentnotbroken at the end of this thread.

 

You have made this infidelity a life sentence for both of you. I believe that if you truly want something then you bring it to fruition, you have not. You're punishing her for cheating and yourself for staying. Oh, sometimes you bury it but it always comes back. That's what happens when we bury things, the least little thing can trigger it right back as if it just happened.

 

I agree I don't think you're going to be happy either way, stay go makes no difference.

 

There is a thread in the spiritual section that I believe is titled, Let It Go. I honestly believe in my heart that that thread was posted just for you. When I read it I thought wow such an old T.D. Jakes sermon, wonder who God is trying to reach. It's for you, go read it, then thank pureinheart, God spoke to her and she listened.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/spirituality-religious-beliefs/336851-td-jakes-let-go

 

I appreciate the sentiment you are expressing. I read the post you suggested along with dozens - if not hundreds - of other postings and books on the subject of forgiveness. For me, forgiveness is not something that is "granted" to the WS because it makes the BS feel better. That is what I would classify as "false forgiveness"; and that will collapse over time and result in the BS feeling contempt for the WS.

 

Forgiveness must be earned by the WS. They must show true remorse and be willing to do whatever they can to help the BS recover. The BS needs to be able to at least try to forgive based on the efforts of the WS to earn it, and if they cannot get to that point then divorce is the answer. Check out the book "How Can I Forgive You". You can go to Amazon and sample the first few pages. If you read it you will understand what I am saying.

[mercy]

I appreciate the sentiment you are expressing. I read the post you suggested along with dozens - if not hundreds - of other postings and books on the subject of forgiveness. For me, forgiveness is not something that is "granted" to the WS because it makes the BS feel better. That is what I would classify as "false forgiveness"; and that will collapse over time and result in the BS feeling contempt for the WS.

 

Forgiveness must be earned by the WS. They must show true remorse and be willing to do whatever they can to help the BS recover. The BS needs to be able to at least try to forgive based on the efforts of the WS to earn it, and if they cannot get to that point then divorce is the answer. Check out the book "How Can I Forgive You". You can go to Amazon and sample the first few pages. If you read it you will understand what I am saying.

 

Thank you for being so kind, I worried about offending you, as some are when God is brought into the equation.

 

I wasn't speaking of forgiveness, though I have always believed forgiveness is for ourselves, not others. I was speaking of releasing yourself from all of it, just trying to let it go. Letting go frees a person. I'm not talking about the flip, 'just let it go' that some use to discount what you have been through but the letting go in the true sense, for you. Leaving your wife out of this you, YOU deserve to be released.

 

There just seems to be a sadness surrounding you. I hope you find your way through this and you are awarded some peace. And maybe even a little joy.

 

I'll look up the book you mentioned. It may sound odd but I've never read a book about infidelity and I'm a bookworm. I'd read the back cover and be overwhelmed with sadness. I know knowledge is power, can't really explain it. But I will read the excerpt.

[JustJoe]

I appreciate the sentiment you are expressing. I read the post you suggested along with dozens - if not hundreds - of other postings and books on the subject of forgiveness. For me, forgiveness is not something that is "granted" to the WS because it makes the BS feel better. That is what I would classify as "false forgiveness"; and that will collapse over time and result in the BS feeling contempt for the WS.

 

Forgiveness must be earned by the WS. They must show true remorse and be willing to do whatever they can to help the BS recover. The BS needs to be able to at least try to forgive based on the efforts of the WS to earn it, and if they cannot get to that point then divorce is the answer. Check out the book "How Can I Forgive You". You can go to Amazon and sample the first few pages. If you read it you will understand what I am saying.

Drifter, Your wife has not in over 20 years, shown any remorse, because she feels none. All of your complaining, whining and hoping will NOT make her remorseful, so why do you keep harping on it? There is only one way for your situation to get any better and it is the one thing you seem incapable of doing. TAKE ACTION! Do something.....anything, to assert yourself. Don't wait for her or it will be another 20 years. You MUST do something. Almost every poster has tried to make you see that, but you keep complaining about her not being remorseful. She is not and never will be. So either forget it, and have the same marriage you have now or Do something about it .

[drifter777]

Ok, one last time. You don't have to read this whole thread or even any of my previous posts. This is the question(s) I'm asking:

 

 

Please help me get this thread back on topic. What I've always been looking for is advice on how, or if, any BS is able to forgive their WS without validation their cheating behavior. Doesn't "I forgive you" mean that you are excusing their behavior and giving them a pass? Do you open your heart and somehow say to yourself "I guess I would have cheated if I was in that situation too" or do you harden your heart and go with "I hate what they did but am willing to trade some of my peace and happiness to avoid being alone or suffering financially". What did you do? What are you doing now?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Ok, one last time. You don't have to read this whole thread or even any of my previous posts. This is the question(s) I'm asking:

 

 

Please help me get this thread back on topic. What I've always been looking for is advice on how, or if, any BS is able to forgive their WS without validation their cheating behavior. Doesn't "I forgive you" mean that you are excusing their behavior and giving them a pass? Do you open your heart and somehow say to yourself "I guess I would have cheated if I was in that situation too" or do you harden your heart and go with "I hate what they did but am willing to trade some of my peace and happiness to avoid being alone or suffering financially". What did you do? What are you doing now?

I think it has to do with forgiveness vs enabling. Like someone said above me, the WS has to earn that forgiveness...or it's just enabling. That was a BIG reason why I needed to see my WW quit her class. I needed to see she was really willing to sacrifice and do the right thing to save the marriage, that she was that committed. She wasn't...so my forgiveness was meaningless, just enabling. Now I struggle with forgiveness for my own sake. I've enforced my boundary...we are divorcing. I need to let go and forgive her...I guess that's a different kind of forgiveness, the kinda you give to yourself.

[road]

 

 

Please help me get this thread back on topic. What I've always been looking for is advice on how, or if, any BS is able to forgive their WS without validation their cheating behavior. Doesn't "I forgive you" mean that you are excusing their behavior and giving them a pass?

 

 

Forgiving has nothing to do with validating or either with excusing.

 

Forgive means that you forgive the person and the damage their actions caused.

 

You can forgive. Forgiving does not mean forgetting. Never forgetting does not mean to dwell upon the wrongs done to you but there will be triggers that will cause you to remember the past. Time will make the triggers farther apart and fewer but they can still happen.

 

Validate means to accept the WS's actions. There are no justifications for as WS having an affair.

 

Excusing? You say excuse me when you bump into some one. A BS should not be excusing a a WS for "bumping" with the OP. Nor should a WS be saying excuse me to their BS for their affair.

 

The BS needs to decide if they want to stay married.

Is life going to be better with the WS or better without the WS, if better then recovery is the choice.

Then the BS must verify the affair is over.

That NC is maintained.

That the WS answers all questions about the affair. Then eventually put the affair talk to rest.

 

The choice to recovery is that a choice. It does not have to be defended whether to recover or not. It is what will make the BS happy.

 

Yes there are BS's that come here for advice. For some the best advice is to divorce for some to recover. It would be wrong to tell them otherwise based on their story. In the end the choice is their's.

[beenburned]

drifter,

 

What is confusing me is how you meant the phrase " validation of their cheating behavior".

 

Your wife's validating her cheating behavior, or you validating her behavior by staying married?

 

Most reconciliations involve the WS taking responsibility for their bad behavior and doing everything to change. They show remorse for their actions hurting you and apologize.

 

If you are feeling like you validated her behavior just by staying married, that is not true if she has been faithful to you for many years and dedicated to your marriage.

 

As for details about affairs that happened many years ago, the BS probably will only get the bare facts of when, who, why because the WS probably has forgotten the details that were very small.

 

One thing any BS has to know when reconciling is they may never know all the nitty gritty details about the affair.

 

But if the WS has answered the big questions and worked to understand why it happened in the first place, and vow to never repeat the behavior, then reconciliation is not only possible but worth it when both spouses love each other.

 

I would advise any BS that no longer feels they love their spouse to divorce.

[beenburned]

Alice,

 

Directly after d-day, it is common for WS's to try and justify their cheating, usually blaming the BS/marriage for many things.

 

But after some time has passed by, most Ws's start to see things very differently than they did before.(fog lifts/rose colored glasses gone)

They communicate to the BS how wrong they were and apologize.

 

If after many years, drifter's wife still doesn't understand how wrong her behavior was, then she needs therapy, or for her H to divorce her.

 

If she truly has a mental disorder, it affects all areas of her life, and she truly might not get it like a person that has no mental disorder.

[BetrayedH]

Drifter,

 

I never got to finish that book as I found my wife's blog first but as I recall, forgiveness was for those that were remorseful and genuinely made apologies/asked for forgiveness. In the absence of that remorse, the task for the betrayed was then acceptance instead. With or without that person, you work on accepting what has happened and then decide what kind of relationship is acceptable to you from that point forward.

 

In your case where your wife never got to true remorse (but instead talked about what a valuable life experience it was for her), forgiveness doesn't sound appropriate to me. Perhaps things are changing as you mentioned earlier in the thread. That's for you to decide. Personally, I can't stand apologies that contain a built-in justification. "I'm sorry but I was under a lot of stress at the time and we weren't connecting." You either apologize because it was wrong or you don't apologize because it was an ok thing to do. You don't get credit for apologizing when you follow it up with a reason why it was right.

 

As for forgiveness validating her cheating, I do think you have a valid concern. Forgiveness without remorse likely does communicate the message that what she did was ok.

 

So I think the question becomes, "Is she remorseful?"

 

If so, forgive her.

If not, work on accepting your new reality and decide what the new relationship dynamics are. In the light of an unremorseful cheater, what relationship is acceptable to you?

 

I believe you are perfectly clear what you feel on this subject. You have never once wavered in your belief that forgiveness would be wrong in your case. But I do believe that the fear of the unknown (or being alone) is what is muddying the water as an additional (a very troublesome) variable. As for my $.02 on that one, I had a very similar fear and it turned out that my second chance at life is not a scary concept at all; it's actually pretty liberating. Now that I'm into it, I would never see my STBXW ever again if I had the choice and I would gladly move on. Considering that my youngest is 5 yo, no such luck for me. You don't have that problem.

Edited July 25, 2012 by BetrayedH