frozensprouts Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Drifter, i think a lot of us understand how you feel... i remember feeling like i was being swept along in a current with a real sense that i would somehow "down" in despair...i wanted to do the right thing, but had no idea what that was...i was desperate for anything that i could hold onto and would make things feel better...i was also, very, very exhausted 1
Spark1111 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Abelincoln, I respectfully disagree. I think Drifter,in an effort to preserve a nuclear family for his son, allowed his paternal intincts to trump his romantic needs. The son is grown, and drifter is now flooded with what he did or didn't do to address his needs 20 years ago. This is not unusual. Parents of young children do this all the time. They subjugate their feelings regarding infidelity for the sake of their children. So like the box of old photographs kept on a back shelf in an old closet, drifter is finally allowing himself to examine what he never allowed himself to feel or examine a long, long time ago. Not so unusual at all, IMO. But I do agree with you that he needs to address all these issues with his wife, even if he may feel foolish, after all this time, to do so. There is no statute of limitations on pain. He needs to sit her down, with no expectations of the outcome, and tell her EXACTLY what he feels.
eeyore1981 Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Abelincoln, I respectfully disagree. I think Drifter,in an effort to preserve a nuclear family for his son, allowed his paternal intincts to trump his romantic needs. The son is grown, and drifter is now flooded with what he did or didn't do to address his needs 20 years ago. This is not unusual. Parents of young children do this all the time. They subjugate their feelings regarding infidelity for the sake of their children. So like the box of old photographs kept on a back shelf in an old closet, drifter is finally allowing himself to examine what he never allowed himself to feel or examine a long, long time ago. Not so unusual at all, IMO. But I do agree with you that he needs to address all these issues with his wife, even if he may feel foolish, after all this time, to do so. There is no statute of limitations on pain. He needs to sit her down, with no expectations of the outcome, and tell her EXACTLY what he feels. I just saw this somewhere and am blank on where it was: "I needed to be with my children more than I needed out of my marriage." Can't speak for drifter, but that pretty much sums it up for me. I was hoping there would also be a real and true reconciliation along the way, but 'you can't always get what you want.' (That's from Mick Jagger:D)
BetrayedH Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I don't find it that complicated at all. When I found out about my wife's infidelity (which was by any account an extraordinary betrayal), I somewhat quickly tried to salvage the marriage. It was an odd and evolving combination of trying to save my wife from the depravity that she had fallen to, saving the marriage for myself (I loved my wife and to a great extent, still do) and saving the family for my children. I wanted to do it for all of us. I was in shock and I don't know when that wears off. My R is on a beeline for D now (a path to which I intellectually agree) but the compulsion to stay is absolutely remarkable. It doesn't surprise me that he did. And it doesn't surprise me that 20 years later, he still questions it. Hell, my first year felt like it passed in about 20 minutes. I still wake up and can't believe this is my life. I still want to "fix it." Drifter stayed on that path. To the traditional outsider, I think most would say that he took the high road for a variety of reasons even in the face of a pretty unremorseful spouse (a very relative term). Will he feel better if he divorces today? Who knows. I'm not terribly happy. D sure wasn't any kind of a cure-all. And I would expect if this was 20 years ago, Drifter is old enough now that he fears spending the rest of his days alone. That's not a fun decision either. Personally, I think what is clear is that what he is doing is not working. Something needs to change. Perhaps it is serious confrontation during MC. Perhaps it is separation. Perhaps it is a serious threat of S/D to see exactly how remorseful his wife is today. I don't know. I just hope Drifter finds a path that works for him. For 15 months, he has been a support for me and he can come here and as far as I am concerned, lament and vent as long as he likes. He's the one that has to live his life.
frozensprouts Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 Maybe she has undiagnosed Asperger's or something similar. (It sure sounds like it.) undiagnosed aspergers? excuse my language, but wtf? people with aspegers don't go around blithely hurting other because they have no empathy or feelings for others... it sounds much more like Drifters wife was an immature, selfish person who tried the old line of "i need to find myself" ( or some variation of this) by which she meant she wanted to go sleep around as much as she wanted, all the while knowing that she had a husband who loved her very much- her actions totally blindsided him leaving him momentarily "paralyzed" because he was so thrown off balance... he's not the only one who has been in this position, and it sounds like he's still reeling from it... it sounds like he needs to forgive himself and let go, but it so hard to do that sometimes 3
turnera Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 drifter, why don't you move out now? You can always get back together later if you feel like it. At least you'd know if you are happier without her.
Author drifter777 Posted July 14, 2012 Author Posted July 14, 2012 Thanks again to all - I appreciate all input. As for the rest of the story, there is no more. I have always characterized this event as "not a typical case of cheating", it's like my wife got crazy and acted out for a few weeks. I didn't understand why she did it back then and I don't understand now. I gave her a pass so we could resume our lives together and raise our son. I've said why I did that many times, I've said I regret it many times. This is not a game where it helps anything to say "you accepted it then so shut up and accept it now". Accepting it now is turning out to be the hardest thing I've ever tried to do.
BetrayedH Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 drifter, why don't you move out now? You can always get back together later if you feel like it. At least you'd know if you are happier without her. Drifter, what is your answer to this?
frozensprouts Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 I think I can relate to drifter in that a big part of the reason why I stayed ( at first) was for my kids. This isn't to say that i didn't love my husband, or only stayed for my kids, but they certainly were a big factor. I needed to know that I had done everything i could to give them a happy home with two parents and a good life. Staying with my husband, provided that he was willing to do the hard work of understanding why he cheated so that he wouldn't do it again would give that a chance to happen. I took that gamble, and we all won. We are happy, and we love each other very much...our children see that we are happy together. In drifters case, it sounds like he took the same risk...he stayed for his son, hoping that he and his wife would be able to find each other again. It sounds as if they weren't able to do that, and 20 years later, here they are. It sounds like drifter did what he thought was the right thing given the knowledge he had at the time. It sounds like he hoped that the woman whom he loved would understand his pain and shame and would love him enough to have empathy for what he had been through and a desire to put away her pride and admit she'd done wrong by him...but she didn't. The thing is, he had no control over her choices and actions...only she does...it sounds like she just never really had it in her to be anything more than what she was... it can be so hard to accept that the one we love doesn't love us the same way or that their ability to love isn't the same as ours..it's a painful truth that can slowly poison you drifter...it sounds like you spent the last 20 years living your life for your son and wife....and somewhere along the way you lost yourself...it's time to find yourself again...you've done your job and are a good dad to your son...now it's time to be just as good to yourself...find yourself again, but just be careful not to lose even more of yourself in the process... you sound like a good and decent man with a big heart who has a great capacity to be loyal and loving...don't lose that 1
turnera Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 Thanks again to all - I appreciate all input. As for the rest of the story, there is no more. I have always characterized this event as "not a typical case of cheating", it's like my wife got crazy and acted out for a few weeks. I didn't understand why she did it back then and I don't understand now. I gave her a pass so we could resume our lives together and raise our son. I've said why I did that many times, I've said I regret it many times. This is not a game where it helps anything to say "you accepted it then so shut up and accept it now". Accepting it now is turning out to be the hardest thing I've ever tried to do. So I will repeat, why don't you just do what You WANTED to do and move out?
eeyore1981 Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 So I will repeat, why don't you just do what You WANTED to do and move out? I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's because he's afraid if he moves out, she'll end up being with someone else and he'll end up alone, and then it's adding insult to injury because he still gets to 'pay' for what she did. Some people can't get past this kind of betrayal under the best of circumstances, but to try to get past this with someone who doesn't even have remorse, even after 20 years, that's a hard blow to absorb. Drifter has the same choice he's always had, stay with the devil you know, or go off and face the great unknown. IMO what's bringing this all up for him again is his son is all grown up, so one of the reasons he chose to stay is now gone. It's reevaluation time. 2
Author drifter777 Posted July 15, 2012 Author Posted July 15, 2012 I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's because he's afraid if he moves out, she'll end up being with someone else and he'll end up alone, and then it's adding insult to injury because he still gets to 'pay' for what she did. Some people can't get past this kind of betrayal under the best of circumstances, but to try to get past this with someone who doesn't even have remorse, even after 20 years, that's a hard blow to absorb. Drifter has the same choice he's always had, stay with the devil you know, or go off and face the great unknown. IMO what's bringing this all up for him again is his son is all grown up, so one of the reasons he chose to stay is now gone. It's reevaluation time. This pretty much sums it up. I'm not at all afraid that if I would leave that she would take up with someone else because if I decide to leave it will be final. It's fear of the unknown. I think that my leaving would provide long overdue punishment for her - but I'm not sure that will satisfy my sense of justice. The key is for her to prove that her remorse for her selfish, hurtful behavior is real; that she understands no amount of justification excuses any of it. I think we may have to (finally) go into MC to find out if we can work this out.
chaosofcolour Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Sorry, I've been reading this thread for a while and, while I'm not married, therefore, don't have any real advice for you or any real solace to give, I really hope you're doing well and you're in my thoughts!
turnera Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 It's fear of the unknown. I think that my leaving would provide long overdue punishment for her - but I'm not sure that will satisfy my sense of justice. The key is for her to prove that her remorse for her selfish, hurtful behavior is real; that she understands no amount of justification excuses any of it. I think we may have to (finally) go into MC to find out if we can work this out. I'm not exactly sure what your goal is. Is it punishment? Is it finding personal happiness? 1
BetrayedH Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I'm not exactly sure what your goal is. Is it punishment? Is it finding personal happiness? I think he wants justice whether it be by revenge, punishment, remorse, divorce, etc. I'm learning that there is no scenario where that happens. With all the factors, there is no combination that results in justice. It is categorically unfair to the BS in about everyway possible. No moving of the puzzle pieces changes that. 3
princess_e Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Clearly, the cheating has caused irreversible damage... if you havent been able to move past it after so long maybe it is just something that you just truly cannot bring yourself to accept. Obviously you are very torn between staying and leaving.. there must be many conflicting feelings over this. You been through a lot with her, invested a lot of your life, and even raised children together... but at the end of the day, if you cannot overlook the cheating, it is best for you to leave. A relationship with resentment is just painful. If however, you are more on the staying side... maybe try to look at the situation in a different way... for example, is she a good person/wife/mother overall? Other than the cheating part has she and does she treat you well? Is she always looking out for your best interest? Do you feel that she truly cares for you and your relationship? Im not really sure what context the cheating was in... but I believe that good people sometimes make bad choices... or have slip ups. I do not mean that I support cheating in any way shape or form... just that situations may not alwyas appear purely black and white. If she is a good person/wife to you overall then try to percieve her cheating as a slip up... as a moment of weakness? Im sorry you were hurt, I wish you all the best and maybe if you try seeing it from another mindset you will oneday be able to overcome the cheating (if thats what you want). But ultimately, if you try,try , try try and just cant get past it.... it would probably be best for you two to go your seperate ways. Take care!
eeyore1981 Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 This pretty much sums it up. I'm not at all afraid that if I would leave that she would take up with someone else because if I decide to leave it will be final. It's fear of the unknown. I think that my leaving would provide long overdue punishment for her - but I'm not sure that will satisfy my sense of justice. The key is for her to prove that her remorse for her selfish, hurtful behavior is real; that she understands no amount of justification excuses any of it. I think we may have to (finally) go into MC to find out if we can work this out. So you're trying to take something that was blatantly unfair and balance the scales and make it be fair to you. Yes, I do understand this. You could go out and have an affair then treat her like she treated you. But for that to work, no only does she have to be willing to stay and try to work it out, she would have to hurt over it as much as you did hers, AND you would have to somehow subvert your whole personality to be okay and not damage yourself by being honestly remorseless over it... I've heard all the cliches, "Karma's a b*tch", "What goes around comes around", and I've found in my life experience none of them are true. At the end of the day, you have to make this about you. Your fantasies of 'payback' are all well and good, and again, I do understand, this is something I struggle with, but every bit of 'payback' you are going to come up with has some element of being about her, which is beyond your control. I don't regret staying, because the reasons I stayed I believed were worth it then, and still do today. You say you regret it, and that's something you need to look at. You stayed for 20 years, and if you still have regrets, then maybe it is time to really evaluate leaving. You are not happy with the way things are now, and so you need them to change, but you can't change her, you can only change yourself. I think it would be to your benefit to make an HONEST accounting of your marriage to yourself, like what do you get out of being married to this woman, and what does it cost you? This isn't me trying to talk you into ending the marriage. It just seems to me you almost have a 'boogeyman' mentality about what life is like if you do. Honestly, to yourself, what do you think is the worst thing that can happen if you throw in the towel? Your wife doesn't pay? What power does that have over you that you aren't giving it on a silver platter?
jnj express Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Hey drifter----you are in a quandry about what to do---- A couple of things---you are not far from your senior years, (fact of life), When you get to the point, that there is no more job to go to----and friends start to die off (like it or not, it happens) your son, will be doing his own thing, so it basically becomes, you and your wife---and you will spend a lot of time together, and I do mean together, cuz that's the way it becomes-----hours tirn into days, you get older, your body doesn't allow for you to do, what you once did---so you spend most all of your time together You have to decide a couple of things---can you handle all of that time together, based on your mindset---which probably won't change much, and/or can you handle lonliness,---cuz if you leave, there probably won't be a replacement for your wife----you might date---but it isn't easy to find anyone really compatable, when you get into your advanced years--- You need to take time, and try to figure it all out-------If you do decide, to end your misery, and drop your mge---then you need to do it sooner, than later, so you do give yourself time to adjust, and to try to find a partner, for your senior years, cuz lonliness, may be way worse than anything else you experience.
dprtman09 Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) [/quote=drifter777]So, I'll ask again. How can we forgive our cheating spouses without validating the cheating? If you believe you have done it, how did you rationalize it in your mind? Was there something that you did to help you get to that point? Never say she was right. I notice it took 10 YEARS for her to own up. Did it ever occur to you that you may have let her think that YOU took responsibility for her behavior? Whereas you need to examine your part in the relationship prior to the affair, she made the choice to involve another man, not you. She could have come to you with her issues then. I believe that she blamed you for her affair in order to rationalize what she knew was wrong. Another thing, you can forgive, but don't expect to forget. If she expected that, then she is in fantasy land. The issue should not stain your relationship, but it should cause BOTH of you to rethink its anatomy. If you expect to forget, you won't. It's part of your history. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to relive it. Edited July 18, 2012 by dprtman09 having difficulty "quoting"
dprtman09 Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 ok...wait a minute...i think i see the "sticking point" here. You said... So, basically it appears that your wife never accepted responsibility or accountability for her cheating. She somehow made you feel like it was your fault...not hers. If she never accepted responsibility, then of course there's no true reconciliation. There's no foundation to rebuild trust from, no leveling of the playing field. If this is true...then this is why you still feel the way that you do. It's why your marriage, and you have never truly recovered nor reconciled. She still feels like what she did was "right" in some fashion. And there's no way to forgive someone who feels that the damage they did to you was somehow justified or acceptable. Am i on the right track here? absolutely!
Author drifter777 Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 Hey drifter----you are in a quandry about what to do---- A couple of things---you are not far from your senior years, (fact of life), When you get to the point, that there is no more job to go to----and friends start to die off (like it or not, it happens) your son, will be doing his own thing, so it basically becomes, you and your wife---and you will spend a lot of time together, and I do mean together, cuz that's the way it becomes-----hours tirn into days, you get older, your body doesn't allow for you to do, what you once did---so you spend most all of your time together You have to decide a couple of things---can you handle all of that time together, based on your mindset---which probably won't change much, and/or can you handle lonliness,---cuz if you leave, there probably won't be a replacement for your wife----you might date---but it isn't easy to find anyone really compatable, when you get into your advanced years--- You need to take time, and try to figure it all out-------If you do decide, to end your misery, and drop your mge---then you need to do it sooner, than later, so you do give yourself time to adjust, and to try to find a partner, for your senior years, cuz lonliness, may be way worse than anything else you experience. Yeah, I am getting older and these are all things I have been considering for the past couple years. It makes things much more complicated then younger LS'ers can appreciate. Lot's of things simply look differently at 60 then they do at 40. Anyway, I don't like feeling that all of this must be boiled down to get past it or leave. Nothing in life is that simple, that cut and dried. I think we both have to work on this just like we SHOULD have many years ago. If we can't sort it out together then it's time to end things.
Author drifter777 Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 You two would benefit from a weekend workshop. Funny stuff.
Author drifter777 Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 Why is that funny? Like a weekend retreat is going to magically make everything ok. Really? This is going to take actual work; not some pop-psychology marriage encounter.
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