MM sleeping "in the basement"

[MissBee]

Cabin, my A turned into a legitimate relationship and here I am.

 

I try to offer my story and experiences. Why do you refuse to respond to anyone who is trying to help you understand the cruelty that is being perpetuated? Why do you refuse to acknowledge that what you and that man are doing to his wife is extreme cruelty?

 

I hope you find happiness, but NOT at this woman's expense. See, when an affair DOES turn legitimate, there are lots of things to deal with. A relationship built on hurt and dishonesty is going to have some issues. *I* have been on both sides of this, so will you just stop and just LISTEN?? Unless you don't have a heart, you WILL have regrets someday and you and this man WILL have issues stemming from the way you both treated this woman. Mark my words, it WILL happen. Your relationship will not escape unscathed. Whether he resents you one day when he finally opens his eyes or he ends up doing to you what he is doing to her...it WILL happen. I promise.

 

Again, you need to back off and stay out of this relationship until this jerk man and his wife figure things out OR man up and tell her the truth.

 

You are helping to perpetuate abuse on this woman and it's just not cool.

 

It would be interesting to see a response.

 

As I do get how for an OW they can believe everyone currently not an OW is out to get them...but when you have someone like you, Loni and others, who are currently with their AP in a legitimate relationship, but who also share some of the "dreaded fOW or bitter BS" sentiments...you get ignored as well.

 

The truth then must be that you're not looking for "people like you" or "'people who understand" as who better to understand than a fOW turned wife??? Clearly, you're looking for those who won't be critical of your position any at all and your story. That seems to be the truth, as people like you get ignored, although not disparaged...just simply ignored. Maybe your story is too real and in being a real example, there is not much defense against it when it is not roses and sunshine.

 

It is easy to accuse women no longer in an A or a BS of all kinds of crimes like jealousy, bitterness, fiction etc when you don't like what they're saying, but much harder to accuse an OW turned wife who has the very same to say, who is also currently living in your imaginary experience. Which is what it is...until you are currently fully with your AP or married to them, all you are doing is projecting into the future - a fantasy. It may or may not play out like what you envision...but fantasies are great as they are subject to manipulation and our whims and aren't tied down by logistics. But an OW who is now a wife, is living the reality that you are still wishing for....so one whose reality does have a harsh edge or who has words of caution or critique, breaks your bubble of fantasy of what it will be like. But since she cannot be easily considered a "hater" like a BS or fOW and tossed to the side (without having to consider any of the non-rosy proposals)... you just ignore.

 

The only valued people here I suppose are the ones who say they are currently happy as a lark (yet have to disparage anyone not in an A), who advocate for As all around and say they have been in several glorious ones, those who all their friends, families, neighbors, their mail man are in happy As apparently or those who are still inlove with their AP who has moved on...

Edited February 11, 2012 by MissBee

[MissBee]

For someone to cheat on their spouse, betray them, and every day LIE, deceive, plan a life behind their back, is pretty broken and selfish inside. It's an on going choice to knowingly deceive and pretend, to live a double life.

Ask ANY therapist or marriage counsellor this question and see what the answer is.

Asking people who cheat or those who are AP's, many will put the blame on the BS or other circumstances.

 

Yea...

 

I mean some of the stuff said here, people behave like it is an LS thing....you can find a real life therapist, counselor, go to a bookstore and read books by those who study human behavior and psychology, Google....and you can verify whether or not these are made-up LS claims, or if intelligent, professional, researchers don't also espouse the same sentiment.

 

But then again, denial knows NO bounds...if you don't want to believe something or it conflicts with your current beliefs and wishes, then even if Jesus himself came down and told you, you'd not buy it either *shrug*.

[alexandria35]

Cabin,

 

This statement is just so odd to me. Now, I'm not a lawyer but I do know a few - a pair in family law even.

 

And this just flies in the face of what they advised me to do in my D - namely, file for D and then get the heck out of the house. My own lawyer advised the same: once filed, someone leaves the home. ASAP. In fact, most online articles advise the same.

 

I cannot remember (not here much any more) but has your MM officially filed for D in your (his really) jurisdiction? If so, how can he possibly be in jeopardy of abandonment?

 

The thing is, HE is blaming HER for not being able to leave (big, no, huge red flag). But he doesn't NEED her permission in any sense of the word - legally or otherwise. Since she, according to him, is the sole impediment to his leaving...what can he do to get her to give him what he wants (say that aloud...how does that ring to you)?

 

Answer: Nothing. HE can only control himself. Whether he lives in the basement or lives across town, she will decide what she wants. His being there has little, if any, positive effect.

 

Can you answer what he thinks he is accomplishing by being there? In terms of the D I mean...I am almost positive you'll say "for the kids" but that doesn't make sense. At some point, he MUST move out - and by extension not be around them as much. HE clearly knew this BEFORE he told her he wanted a divorce. So, from the perspective of getting his W to agree to HIS terms (read that again, sound stupid? good, because it is - its also his reason for staying I think - or at least what he tells you) - what is he accomplishing?

 

Honestly, what he seems to be accomplishing is...the status quo.

 

How sure are you that he wants a D? (Has he even filed?)

 

--JW

 

Why don't you ever respond to these kinds of thoughtful posts Cabin? I notice that you commonly start threads that don't really mean anything in terms of the big picture - "sex with my mm is the best", "my mm is the life of the party and his wife is a non drinking big drag", "my mm is being held hostage by his wife not agreeing to his terms of the seperation" etc, etc..But whenever anyone says anything that might encourage you to look deeper, you just ignore them. Instead you would rather just trade one liners with the people who are sort of obviously trying to goad you.

 

Look, you posted back at the beginning of September that MM's wife knew he didn't love her anymore and knew that he wants to leave, so she drew up a seperation agreement that he didn't like. He said he wasn't going to leave until they could mutually agree to the terms of the seperation. That was 6 freaking months ago and he's still there! At this point why even care if he's telling the truth or not? I suspect he is being just as dishonest with you as he is being with his wife. I think once you made the decision to divorce your MM knew he needed to make it look like he was doing something to end his marriage too, thus the stories of the never to be agreed upon seperation agreement and sleeping in the basement. But my point is, even if everything he says is true, how long are you going to wait on this ridiculous situation?

 

You posted a few months ago that affairs are not sustainable over the long term, that the participants cannot stay in limbo. Well I would say that your MM has got everyone stuck firmly in limbo land. He isn't being held hostage by his wife, he is holding her hostage. He doesn't need a seperation agreement to leave, he just needs to file for divorce and leave. The terms will be worked out by the court. I mean if he is not going to leave the house until his wife agrees to his terms than this could go on forever couldn't it. She could just continously say no to everything he wants for years right? And all the while you remain the secret hidden OW, because God forbid that your MM would ever just be honest and tell the truth to people. You like to post stories you've heard about affair partners who have had their happily ever after. So what? What do these stories have to do with you? Your MM is still at home with his wife. How long are you going to wait for your happily ever after with him.

[Angelina527]

It would be interesting to see a response.

 

As I do get how for an OW they can believe everyone currently not an OW is out to get them...but when you have someone like you, Loni and others, who are currently with their AP in a legitimate relationship, but who also share some of the "dreaded fOW or bitter BS" sentiments...you get ignored as well.

 

The truth then must be that you're not looking for "people like you" or "'people who understand" as who better to understand than a fOW turned wife??? Clearly, you're looking for those who won't be critical of your position any at all and your story. That seems to be the truth, as people like you get ignored, although not disparaged...just simply ignored. Maybe your story is too real and in being a real example, there is not much defense against it when it is not roses and sunshine.

 

It is easy to accuse women no longer in an A or a BS of all kinds of crimes like jealousy, bitterness, fiction etc when you don't like what they're saying, but much harder to accuse an OW turned wife who has the very same to say, who is also currently living in your imaginary experience. Which is what it is...until you are currently fully with your AP or married to them, all you are doing is projecting into the future - a fantasy. It may or may not play out like what you envision...but fantasies are great as they are subject to manipulation and our whims and aren't tied down by logistics. But an OW who is now a wife, is living the reality that you are still wishing for....so one whose reality does have a harsh edge or who has words of caution or critique, breaks your bubble of fantasy of what it will be like. But since she cannot be easily considered a "hater" like a BS or fOW and tossed to the side (without having to consider any of the non-rosy proposals)... you just ignore.

 

The only valued people here I suppose are the ones who say they are currently happy as a lark (yet have to disparage anyone not in an A), who advocate for As all around and say they have been in several glorious ones, those who all their friends, families, neighbors, their mail man are in happy As apparently or those who are still inlove with their AP who has moved on...

 

I completely agree.

[SoMovinOn]

For someone to cheat on their spouse, betray them, and every day LIE, deceive, plan a life behind their back, is pretty broken and selfish inside. It's an on going choice to knowingly deceive and pretend, to live a double life.

 

Ask ANY therapist or marriage counsellor this question and see what the answer is.

 

Asking people who cheat or those who are AP's, many will put the blame on the BS or other circumstances.

 

Just as legal systems recognize motivation and circumstances when determining the severity of some crimes, I think the same is true for A's, lying, betrayal, etc.

 

I think there is a difference between a cheater whose BS is loving, devoted, committed to the M, doing everything right ... and a cheater whose BS does everything to push the WS away.

 

Surely in the latter case, one can be simplistic and say the WS should just leave, get D then, and, in overly simplistic terms, that is true and correct. However, real life doesn't always allow for the most simple solution.

[donnamaybe]

Divorce is never "overly simplistic" for anyone, but many people go the difficult route anywsy. They have a name for that: integrity.

[alexandria35]

Just as legal systems recognize motivation and circumstances when determining the severity of some crimes, I think the same is true for A's, lying, betrayal, etc.

 

I think there is a difference between a cheater whose BS is loving, devoted, committed to the M, doing everything right ... and a cheater whose BS does everything to push the WS away.

 

Surely in the latter case, one can be simplistic and say the WS should just leave, get D then, and, in overly simplistic terms, that is true and correct. However, real life doesn't always allow for the most simple solution.

 

Umm...I think you have that backwards. In most cases an affair is the easier solution to ones unhappiness, not getting a divorce. Who said life is supposed to be easy? Sometimes doing the right thing means choosing the hardest path.

[MissBee]

Divorce is never "overly simplistic" for anyone, but many people go the difficult route anywsy. They have a name for that: integrity.

 

This is true.

 

With a 50% divorce rate, clearly, many, many people divorce. It may not be easy, many things aren't, but people do it anyway.

 

If only 10% of people were divorcing or something then yes it would seem like divorce was such an arduous and impossible thing....but if 50% of married couples can part ways...then simple it isn't, but it's obviously not so hard if so many can do it. Or maybe that 50% is extra special and superhuman with no kids and no complications and no other life either

 

People do hard things all the time...but I suppose there is a difference between those who are scared but still face their fears and still act with integrity and those who declare it hard and not simple so as to avoid doing anything. It does truly depend on who is involved what they will choose to do.

[MissBee]

Umm...I think you have that backwards. In most cases an affair is the easier solution to ones unhappiness, not getting a divorce. Who said life is supposed to be easy? Sometimes doing the right thing means choosing the hardest path.

 

Yepp, very true!

 

It is easier to have an A and have life as you know it and a secret life, dwelling in inertia....versus making actions that will provide no security blanket and where you may not necessarily get what you want and life, as you know it, will change and be disrupted.

 

So you diddle and dawdle saying it's not simple...when what you mean is: it is simple, however, it will come with repercussions I do not want, that will make me uncomfortable so I'd rather stay right here in Nowhere Land...

 

Having an A is not simple, it in fact adds more complications, but it is easier or seems easier.

 

I love that quote about decisions not being easy...but they are simple. It is true! I think people use simple as a misnomer often, when they mean easy. Note the difference.

Edited February 11, 2012 by MissBee

[MissBee]

It's funny how that works isn't it?

 

I've been divorced for 17 years, and guess what I didn't want a divorce. When my x suddenly told me one day that it was over, he meant it. He went to see a lawyer within a couple of months and there was nothing I could do to stop it. I begged and pleaded a couple of times, lost 20 lbs, didn't tell a soul for 2 weeks, cried my eyes out but he was DONE. It didn't take me but about 3 months to realize there was no going back, he was NOT going to. 9 years and 2 kids and poof, he was done. So I'm living proof, that when someone like my x wants out, they damn well get out.

 

Yeps...many many more stories like yours.

 

My aunt had a husband who was making tons of money in an upper level position at an investment firm, she had a 5 year old, she was unhappy in her marriage and I think infidelity was involved on his part. A woman with a 5 year old and a great standard of living with her husband divorced! She told me stayed in bed for 3 months depressed...so clearly it was not easy...but she is alive and well, has been remarried for 13 years with a man who they are like peas in a pod, she has a better life, is accomplishing her dreams, her son who was 5 at the time is now in college and calls both his stepdad and real dad, "Dad". My aunt still cares about her ex and even went to stay with him when he was diagnosed with prostate cancer, her current husband is fine with him too and he even stayed over their house for Thanksgiving. It was not easy initially...but life continued and is better.

 

 

Wonder how things would have been had she stayed married as he cheated or continued being married but she cheated? A waste IMO and I am sure they would have animosity between them had they both stayed married and cheated and allowed resentment to build. I'm sure she's glad she endured the short term pain and discomfort of divorce for the long term benefit of moving on to truly be happy in a better relationship, with a better life for her, her kid and all involved.

[2sunny]

For someone to cheat on their spouse, betray them, and every day LIE, deceive, plan a life behind their back, is pretty broken and selfish inside. It's an on going choice to knowingly deceive and pretend, to live a double life.

 

Ask ANY therapist or marriage counsellor this question and see what the answer is.

 

Asking people who cheat or those who are AP's, many will put the blame on the BS or other circumstances.

 

And these are just SOME of what's broken inside... So we have TWO people coming together with evidence of those character traits. Disaster seems eminent.

 

But I did notice Cabin - you never answered the question - you just asked another one instead... That in itself is a quality a cheater portrays...

[2sunny]

It's funny how that works isn't it?

 

I've been divorced for 17 years, and guess what I didn't want a divorce. When my x suddenly told me one day that it was over, he meant it. He went to see a lawyer within a couple of months and there was nothing I could do to stop it. I begged and pleaded a couple of times, lost 20 lbs, didn't tell a soul for 2 weeks, cried my eyes out but he was DONE. It didn't take me but about 3 months to realize there was no going back, he was NOT going to. 9 years and 2 kids and poof, he was done. So I'm living proof, that when someone like my x wants out, they damn well get out.

 

It's true. When they want out - they do it! They don't sit in the house making the spouse so miserable that the spouse files papers... That is manipulation to make someone miserable. It's mean and selfish - when they could have simply said "I'm not happy - I want out now!"

 

Cowardly approach.

[SoMovinOn]

Divorce is never "overly simplistic" for anyone, but many people go the difficult route anywsy. They have a name for that: integrity.

 

People stay married for the kids, due to financial considerations, or any of many other reasons.

[donnamaybe]

People stay married for the kids, due to financial considerations, or any of many other reasons.

 

Those with no character perhaps would want their cake and eat it too.

[robf1971]

It's true. When they want out - they do it! They don't sit in the house making the spouse so miserable that the spouse files papers... That is manipulation to make someone miserable. It's mean and selfish - when they could have simply said "I'm not happy - I want out now!"

 

Cowardly approach.

 

Actually I think it's possible that Cabin's OM has a sweet life. All the benefits of a wife and family life every day. When he feels like it off to Cabin's for some fun. All he has to do is string both of them along with a few lies.

[SoMovinOn]

Those with no character perhaps would want their cake and eat it too.

 

Yup ... or they end up as an OW. People without character do a lot of things.

[donnamaybe]

Yup ... or they end up as an OW. People without character do a lot of things.

 

Some OW/OM are weak. Most MM/MW, however, are manipulative.

[Anna-Belle]

A lot of OW don't post until they are hurting, at which point they typically want to stop being the OW. I think when they are happy being the OW there is less of a need for many of them to post.

 

I would think the other woman starts hurting as soon as she realizes the man she is in love with is likely to not get a divorce. Yet she is probably not prepared to let him go because she is so in love with him and still hoping for the impossible. Thus she needs support while still in the relationship. This is an other woman who chooses to stay but still wouldn't classify as a happy other woman. That is where I am at and therefore I am looking for a forum with support for the other woman currently in an affair.

[skywriter]

Anna-Belle,

 

That is how many of us OW come looking for likeminded inidividuals who can relate to our experiences with an A.

Many of us hold those emotions inside, because it is a taboo situation to be in.

 

We've already beat ourselves up about it so usually we aren't asking to be coddled about it just not beat down anymore. Just someone who is willing to let us vent and not judge.

 

Hopefully you can do some of that if it's what you need.

[OWoman]

The truth then must be that you're not looking for "people like you" or "'people who understand" as who better to understand than a fOW turned wife??? Clearly, you're looking for those who won't be critical of your position any at all and your story. That seems to be the truth, as people like you get ignored, although not disparaged...just simply ignored. Maybe your story is too real and in being a real example, there is not much defense against it when it is not roses and sunshine.

 

It is easy to accuse women no longer in an A or a BS of all kinds of crimes like jealousy, bitterness, fiction etc when you don't like what they're saying, but much harder to accuse an OW turned wife who has the very same to say, who is also currently living in your imaginary experience. Which is what it is...until you are currently fully with your AP or married to them, all you are doing is projecting into the future - a fantasy. It may or may not play out like what you envision...but fantasies are great as they are subject to manipulation and our whims and aren't tied down by logistics. But an OW who is now a wife, is living the reality that you are still wishing for..

 

Thank you for that vote of confidence

 

Those of us who are indeed "living the reality that [some] are still wishing for" can attest that it's not all lies and deceit - that the MM can, and in many cases does, treat the OW with honesty and integrity during and after the A despite what some people here may wish you to believe; that sometimes things "at home" are exactly as portrayed OR WORSE; and that leaving one unhappy, stressful situation does not compel the survivor to repeat those same patterns of behaviour when they are faced with a new, happy, respectful situation.

 

It's often quoted on these forums that past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. There is some truth in that. If a MM's character and behaviour are completely without blemish in all aspects of his life, in every single R except for the toxic M, why should you believe that his future behaviour would more likely resemble the out-of-character behaviour displayed in that atypical situation? Why not believe that he's more likely to treat you with the same respect, care and integrity he shows towards his parents, his siblings, his colleagues, his friends, his kids, his pets, his neighbours, the staff in his local shop, his hairdresser? Why assume that he will treat you like the one person who's made his life hell - unless, of course, you plan on making his life hell?

[2sunny]

Actually I think it's possible that Cabin's OM has a sweet life. All the benefits of a wife and family life every day. When he feels like it off to Cabin's for some fun. All he has to do is string both of them along with a few lies.

 

Well - IF he wanted out so badly - a man of character would have just ended the M in divorce - but her MM didn't even do that, he was only a coward enough to subject his wife to misery so SHE would start the process.

[donnamaybe]

Well - IF he wanted out so badly - a man of character would have just ended the M in divorce - but her MM didn't even do that, he was only a coward enough to subject his wife to misery so SHE would start the process.

 

Or maybe he is just seeing if both will accept their respective roles in the triangle.

[2sunny]

Or maybe he is just seeing if both will accept their respective roles in the triangle.

 

A triangle that is an illusion without the honesty.

 

Unless everyone knows what that "respective" role is - then he is forcing a role that they don't know about...

[Mme. Chaucer]

I would think the other woman starts hurting as soon as she realizes the man she is in love with is likely to not get a divorce. Yet she is probably not prepared to let him go because she is so in love with him and still hoping for the impossible. Thus she needs support while still in the relationship. This is an other woman who chooses to stay but still wouldn't classify as a happy other woman. That is where I am at and therefore I am looking for a forum with support for the other woman currently in an affair.

 

I think you can get a great deal of support to help you deal with such a situation here, and it does not necessarily come in the form of "dump him."

 

Where the support seems to fall away, though is when the entire concept of an "AFFAIR" is aggrandized; when the individual's situation seems to take a far second place to romanticizing about "soul mates," "affair sex," "us against the world," etc. That often happens here, and it brings on a lot of negativity.

 

Also, when there is trashing of the spouse, support usually dwindles.

[MissBee]

Thank you for that vote of confidence

 

Those of us who are indeed "living the reality that [some] are still wishing for" can attest that it's not all lies and deceit - that the MM can, and in many cases does, treat the OW with honesty and integrity during and after the A despite what some people here may wish you to believe; that sometimes things "at home" are exactly as portrayed OR WORSE; and that leaving one unhappy, stressful situation does not compel the survivor to repeat those same patterns of behaviour when they are faced with a new, happy, respectful situation.

 

It's often quoted on these forums that past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. There is some truth in that. If a MM's character and behaviour are completely without blemish in all aspects of his life, in every single R except for the toxic M, why should you believe that his future behaviour would more likely resemble the out-of-character behaviour displayed in that atypical situation? Why not believe that he's more likely to treat you with the same respect, care and integrity he shows towards his parents, his siblings, his colleagues, his friends, his kids, his pets, his neighbours, the staff in his local shop, his hairdresser? Why assume that he will treat you like the one person who's made his life hell - unless, of course, you plan on making his life hell?

 

OWoman,

 

I think you're using my post to your benefit and not relaying what I was really getting across.

 

I am sure many OW have no problems listening to you and your outcome, and I pointed out, in the part you chose not to quote, that maybe the only OW turned wife or advice givers that are appreciated are those like yourself. Your story is quite atypical, in terms of you've been a serial OW and have said so, you said where you come from this is acceptable and you also say your MM was in a toxic marriage and he was being abused. A lot of OW who come here are in so such situation...in fact, many of them have stories that more resemble Angelina's.

 

My point was that, OW-turned-wives, like Angelina, whose experiences mimic more of the average story current OW tell, seem to ignore people like Angelina all together. The rest of my post explains why I think this is so.

 

Each person needs to be honest within herself. Claiming you want people in a similar situation to yours or who understand....yet you ignore someone whose story seemed just like yours, because why? It isn't ALL roses. And some would go as far as to listen to a story that is nothing like theirs just because it has a happier outcome, then make-believe that somehow theirs will be the same, when it is different factors. It doesn't do anyone any good to only listen to what they want to hear or align themselves with another, whose story is absolutely unlike their case, just because they are hoping against hope.

 

At the end of the day...your outcome is your outcome. But I can about guess exactly the outcome of most of the stories here. Which is why those that turn out marvelous or totally different and more fab than expected are something to gawk at and point to; if it were the norm, then naturally, it would be nothing to be enamored with or single out. The problem is when one comes here only trying to find those stories and wanting to ignore everything else. How can one possibly have a balanced outlook by doing that? But it comes down to one's honesty with one's self again and really looking at stories that seem like yours, not what you wish or hope are like yours, and taking the good, bad and ugly. But running only to stories of success especially when the situation described is absolutely unlike yours....is very irrational..

Edited February 12, 2012 by MissBee