verhrzn Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Just for clarification, my question is referring to single people of my generation (so early 20's to early 30's.) There's always been a certain percentage of poly people in my social circles. 'Poly' in this case, refers to people who are in a long-term relationship who also have sexual and emotional relationships with other people. Lately, however, I've been noticing an increase in the amount of people identifying as poly-maybe they were always poly and are now coming clean, hard to say. I don't really care what other consenting adults do, but the sudden surge of poly people is having some profound impact on my own life. It's already been very difficult to find single men, but in the rare instances I do either IRL or OLD, most of them identify as poly. They say they want open relationships, or non-committed plural relationships, in which they can pursue other women sexually. Several of the guys I messaged that I assumed were single were actually poly looking for a third, and said they'd put "single" down because they didn't want to scare anyone off. In conversations I've had and articles I've read, it seems like a lot of the guys of my age group just don't want monogamous relationships, or marriage. They prefer FWBs, or open relationships. The only guys I've found who say they prefer monogamy and like marriage are the ones who are already married or are engaged. This might be a branch off of the old "There are no good men left," but it seems more like there are no monogamous men left. That if a guy prefers monogamy, he's already married/engaged, or much older. (35+) My single male friends all say they wouldn't mind a relationship, but they'd rather just have no-strings sex and they're not looking for "long term commitment." This seems to be the prevailing attitude among guys my age who are single. Has this been anyone else's experience?
fortyninethousand322 Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Just for clarification, my question is referring to single people of my generation (so early 20's to early 30's.) There's always been a certain percentage of poly people in my social circles. 'Poly' in this case, refers to people who are in a long-term relationship who also have sexual and emotional relationships with other people. Lately, however, I've been noticing an increase in the amount of people identifying as poly-maybe they were always poly and are now coming clean, hard to say. I don't really care what other consenting adults do, but the sudden surge of poly people is having some profound impact on my own life. It's already been very difficult to find single men, but in the rare instances I do either IRL or OLD, most of them identify as poly. They say they want open relationships, or non-committed plural relationships, in which they can pursue other women sexually. Several of the guys I messaged that I assumed were single were actually poly looking for a third, and said they'd put "single" down because they didn't want to scare anyone off. In conversations I've had and articles I've read, it seems like a lot of the guys of my age group just don't want monogamous relationships, or marriage. They prefer FWBs, or open relationships. The only guys I've found who say they prefer monogamy and like marriage are the ones who are already married or are engaged. This might be a branch off of the old "There are no good men left," but it seems more like there are no monogamous men left. That if a guy prefers monogamy, he's already married/engaged, or much older. (35+) My single male friends all say they wouldn't mind a relationship, but they'd rather just have no-strings sex and they're not looking for "long term commitment." This seems to be the prevailing attitude among guys my age who are single. Has this been anyone else's experience? I know most people (including you OP) like to dismiss everything I say as delusional or dumb or whatever but I'll answer anyway. Among my circle of friends most seek out sex but have every intention of settling down if the right woman were to come along. One of my best friends who dated around, fooled around, slept with a lot of women is now married with a child so there you go. I think most men are like this.
Author verhrzn Posted February 6, 2012 Author Posted February 6, 2012 I know most people (including you OP) like to dismiss everything I say as delusional or dumb or whatever but I'll answer anyway. Among my circle of friends most seek out sex but have every intention of settling down if the right woman were to come along. One of my best friends who dated around, fooled around, slept with a lot of women is now married with a child so there you go. I think most men are like this. But how many men find that 'right woman'? It seems like there is a very long list of qualities a woman has to have in order for a guy to give up a life of casual hook-ups and awesome sex with hot women, right? I've heard the expression that guys and marriage are like cabs with their lights on... that marriage for guys is less about the right person and more about the correct timing. But that timing window seems to be getting smaller and smaller.
ThaWholigan Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Well, I think that at this point, people are becoming more highly sexed and that is charging their interactions with the opposite sex that little bit more, leading to more sex-based arrangements. However, as I have observed, I meet many people who tire of this behavior and look to have more intimacy and the idea of monogamy with one partner. That is what I believe most people want. You will always have those who like to exercise the right to multiple partners or like to have lots of sex with lots of people, but now that behavior is encouraged in some circles and perhaps subconsciously in sections of the media, so you will encounter more people engaging in it these days. But many find they cannot sustain it in my observations. Intimacy is greatly desired still, and the intimacy one gets from monogamy is still highly sought after by even some of the most highly sexed people. This is what I believe.
fortyninethousand322 Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 But how many men find that 'right woman'? It seems like there is a very long list of qualities a woman has to have in order for a guy to give up a life of casual hook-ups and awesome sex with hot women, right? Quite a few actually, at least in my social circle. Or perhaps quite a few of the men thought they found the right girl. I mean the guy who's married now is one. Another friend of mine thought his college girlfriend was the right girl but she left him (since then he's had a string of hookups). I actually know quite a few people my age or younger who are married, and I don't exactly live out in the sticks. So it definitely happens. I've heard the expression that guys and marriage are like cabs with their lights on... that marriage for guys is less about the right person and more about the correct timing. But that timing window seems to be getting smaller and smaller. My friend who's married just turned 25. So it isn't "age". If it's timing, it's probably some kind of internal timeline that varies from person to person. Some people were ready to be married at 13, some people 45. But from seeing my friends' dating lives, they all seemed to settle down with a girl they actually liked rather than for just a girl who was the hottest one to say yes.
zengirl Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Just the crowd you travel in, I'd say. I'm 27, and my crowd is all mid20s to mid30s mostly. Plenty are married or living together and happily monogamous. Plenty are single and wish they could find someone to married; I have many male friends who very much want to get married and some of those (not all) really want a family. I don't know a lot of people -- men or women -- who want to actually be Poly, meaning engage in meaningful relationships with multiple people. I do know a few people (males and females) who aren't relationship people or in a relationship place who'd rather just have NSA sex or FWB sitautions. Mostly, that's situational; it's where someone is, rather than a constant state. Plenty of young people are still getting married. A lot of people are putting it off longer, but that's good. You're less likely to get divorced that way (no failsafe protection against divorce, but age is a huge factor in the statistics). Plenty more want monogamy, though monogamy doesn't always mean marriage these days. Loads of people would rather live together without the paperwork, at least for a good long while before they finally do it. But neither is on it's way out, so far as I can tell. Then again, I'm married, so I guess I would feel that way, but I still have single friends as well, male and female, and most of them expect to marry someday and want to be married. Once they find the right relationship.
Woggle Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Women are not much different than men these days. I think a good deal of men want relationships but for whatever reason they are afraid to trust or make the full commitment. When you see the drama your friends go through it makes you wary. It works the same for women. You will eventually find a relationship minded man but it might be harder than it was a decade ago but good things usually don't come easy.
make me believe Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 I think it's people in their 20s and 30s trying to live in an extended adolesence. Ask these guys when they hit middle age and are no longer able to attract random bar chicks if they still want to be single forever. Also, I think a lot of marriage minded men aren't out there banging everyone they can. When my husband was single he wasn't "looking" to get married, but he hadn't ruled it out if the right person came along, and he definitely wasn't part of the casual hook up culture that is so popular nowadays. I disagree with your idea that it's more about the timing than the right person. I think a lot of guys will happily settle down when they meet the right girl, even if they can't picture that happening while they are deep in their party mode. But I definitely think the right girl will be able to take them OUT of party mode because they'll recognize that she's worth it and that they can find happiness and fulfillment in a relationship that they aren't getting from casual sex.
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 This might be a branch off of the old "There are no good men left," but it seems more like there are no monogamous men left. That if a guy prefers monogamy, he's already married/engaged, or much older. (35+) My single male friends all say they wouldn't mind a relationship, but they'd rather just have no-strings sex and they're not looking for "long term commitment." This seems to be the prevailing attitude among guys my age who are single. Has this been anyone else's experience? Uh... Stop dating that kind of guy. Just look at this site... there are millions of guys who can't even get 1 date. I'm not entirely sure... but it seems women under 25 tend to be super sluts. They mostly go for the top 40-50% of attractive guys. Those guys seem to be just drowning in women, while the lower percentile guys are not doing as well. I've seen this with my younger friends. My cousin is 22 and handsome... he isn't smooth at all. He literally comes across as a guy just looking for sex. He gets lots of it. The less attractive guys in his group have some smooth moves and very rarely score. However you feel about this situation... with fewer and fewer boys attending college... down to like 40% or less... the number of quality men is going to keep dropping. Educated career women are going to find it harder and harder to get a dream guy.
Author verhrzn Posted February 6, 2012 Author Posted February 6, 2012 Just the crowd you travel in, I'd say. I'm 27, and my crowd is all mid20s to mid30s mostly. Plenty are married or living together and happily monogamous. Plenty are single and wish they could find someone to married; I have many male friends who very much want to get married and some of those (not all) really want a family. I don't know a lot of people -- men or women -- who want to actually be Poly, meaning engage in meaningful relationships with multiple people. I do know a few people (males and females) who aren't relationship people or in a relationship place who'd rather just have NSA sex or FWB sitautions. Mostly, that's situational; it's where someone is, rather than a constant state. Plenty of young people are still getting married. A lot of people are putting it off longer, but that's good. You're less likely to get divorced that way (no failsafe protection against divorce, but age is a huge factor in the statistics). Plenty more want monogamy, though monogamy doesn't always mean marriage these days. Loads of people would rather live together without the paperwork, at least for a good long while before they finally do it. But neither is on it's way out, so far as I can tell. Then again, I'm married, so I guess I would feel that way, but I still have single friends as well, male and female, and most of them expect to marry someday and want to be married. Once they find the right relationship. I know that marriage still happens. But that was kind of my point... that guys who want to be married, already are. Guys who want to be monogamous, already are, by a certain age. This is going into stereotypes and the whole "no good men left," but it usually is easier for a single guy to get a relationship. So if he doesn't have some crippling social skills (doesn't know how to talk to women) and is still single past a certain age, then it's probably a good bet he doesn't want that, right? What I've observed IRL and OLD is that guys who are single between 25-35 just want to party and date around with the excuse that "none of the girls is the right one for me." Then suddenly in their mid-30's, they snap onto a certain girl, and are married within 6 months. The reason this topic came up is I was reading a relationship article that said if you were a woman in my age group (25-30) and not in a long-term relationship already, and you want to get married, you have 2 years to find a guy, tops. Past 30, the article said, guys will only marry women younger than them, and that no guys younger than about mid-30's want a long-term relationship. This, combined with my poly experiences, is making me wonder if it's really true that all the marriageable men are already taken, and if it's better to just give up the idea of marriage/kids past a certain age, and just be happy with FWBs or being a third.
ThaWholigan Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 I know that marriage still happens. But that was kind of my point... that guys who want to be married, already are. Guys who want to be monogamous, already are, by a certain age. This is going into stereotypes and the whole "no good men left," but it usually is easier for a single guy to get a relationship. So if he doesn't have some crippling social skills (doesn't know how to talk to women) and is still single past a certain age, then it's probably a good bet he doesn't want that, right? What I've observed IRL and OLD is that guys who are single between 25-35 just want to party and date around with the excuse that "none of the girls is the right one for me." Then suddenly in their mid-30's, they snap onto a certain girl, and are married within 6 months. The reason this topic came up is I was reading a relationship article that said if you were a woman in my age group (25-30) and not in a long-term relationship already, and you want to get married, you have 2 years to find a guy, tops. Past 30, the article said, guys will only marry women younger than them, and that no guys younger than about mid-30's want a long-term relationship. This, combined with my poly experiences, is making me wonder if it's really true that all the marriageable men are already taken, and if it's better to just give up the idea of marriage/kids past a certain age, and just be happy with FWBs or being a third. You shouldn't put such stock in those sensationalist articles. I think that once you start to cultivate an abundance mentality you will begin to meet lots of monogamous men, much in the same way I am beginning to see beautiful single women everywhere now that I am beginning to condition myself to stop seeing things so pessimistically. I am aware that your experiences have been particularly damaging for you, but I am sure that if you didn't look for these discrepancies in the dating world, you would be a bit more optimistic about what you will find.
Author verhrzn Posted February 6, 2012 Author Posted February 6, 2012 You shouldn't put such stock in those sensationalist articles. I think that once you start to cultivate an abundance mentality you will begin to meet lots of monogamous men, much in the same way I am beginning to see beautiful single women everywhere now that I am beginning to condition myself to stop seeing things so pessimistically. I am aware that your experiences have been particularly damaging for you, but I am sure that if you didn't look for these discrepancies in the dating world, you would be a bit more optimistic about what you will find. Are they really sensational though? There is a lot of empirical evidence that single men DON'T want to get married. (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/repairing-relationships/201102/the-powerlessness-the-single-woman) If you do a search of Single men in my area, the first 10 pages of profiles all say they're "looking for some fun"... which is code for long-term commitment. I'm a little more convinced that men don't want a relationship until "the right woman" comes along, but what are the odds the average woman will BE that woman? And isn't that steering a little too much into the area of women needing to "change" their boyfriend? Like, trick/manipulate/nag him into submission? Obviously a man wouldn't mind being married to a woman who was perfect in every way.... but if the guy doesn't really want a committed relationship to begin with, what are the chances he'll settle for an average woman?
Woggle Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 I thought it was women who didn't want to get tied down. I think if men knew what the hell women wanted than we would be able to make a decision.
aj22one Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 I'm a little more convinced that men don't want a relationship until "the right woman" comes along, but what are the odds the average woman will BE that woman? And isn't that steering a little too much into the area of women needing to "change" their boyfriend? Like, trick/manipulate/nag him into submission? Obviously a man wouldn't mind being married to a woman who was perfect in every way.... but if the guy doesn't really want a committed relationship to begin with, what are the chances he'll settle for an average woman? I've never met an average woman in my life. I'm convinced they don't exist. Same with "average" men. If we're talking solely about looks that's one thing as I think you can find a "mainstream" scale for looks (albeit still slightly subjective). But average people? Never met one. Every person has their own quirks, personalities, hobbies, talking style, opinions and beliefs, whatever that makes them different and unique in some way. You simply have no idea what traits somebody finds attractive or unattractive that could make you "average" to one person but "above average" to others. You're over-thinking this whole thing way too much.
ThaWholigan Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Are they really sensational though? There is a lot of empirical evidence that single men DON'T want to get married. (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/repairing-relationships/201102/the-powerlessness-the-single-woman) If you do a search of Single men in my area, the first 10 pages of profiles all say they're "looking for some fun"... which is code for long-term commitment. I'm a little more convinced that men don't want a relationship until "the right woman" comes along, but what are the odds the average woman will BE that woman? And isn't that steering a little too much into the area of women needing to "change" their boyfriend? Like, trick/manipulate/nag him into submission? Obviously a man wouldn't mind being married to a woman who was perfect in every way.... but if the guy doesn't really want a committed relationship to begin with, what are the chances he'll settle for an average woman? I think they are sensational personally, I encounter an equal amount of philanderers and polygamous people, as well as many monogamous people in general. I think that may be a geographical issue probably, I live in a very large city so I encounter many variables. The "right woman" is the same phenomenon as "The One". I think there are lots of women that could be "The One" for me, and I know many men who feel the same. I am sure that there are also quite a few who are far more discriminating as I know many of those too. Besides, "average" is relative, so is "attractive". I don't believe there is a universal ideal, and never have. I know many men who are attracted to many things about women, all varied and vastly wide. As I said, maybe it's a geographical issue, of where you are from, but in my experience, I don't think it's as black-and-white as perhaps you are perceiving it. We all have our own experiences though, so you are seeing things that I am not, however, I firmly believe in the idea of your mentality creating your reality rather than your experiences creating it.
jobaba Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 My single male friends all say they wouldn't mind a relationship, but they'd rather just have no-strings sex and they're not looking for "long term commitment." This seems to be the prevailing attitude among guys my age who are single. Has this been anyone else's experience? For guys who are able to consistently pull women, yea, being single and swinging can be fun, but even that gets old. Most of my guy friends who were good with girls were married between 27 - 32. For the guys who have trouble, dating sucks. I'd much rather be monogamous than put up with womens' BS. P.S. Perhaps the reason you're having trouble meeting the kind of guy you want is because you're hanging out these types of guys.
somedude81 Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 I've said this almost a hundred times here. The reason this is happening is because women allow it to. Don't have sex with a man if you are not in a committed relationship! After saying that a while ago some woman said something that disgusted me. Here it is I kind of agree with you on that. I think that the issue is that instead of a guy meeting a girl and wanting to get to know her and actively pursuing her for a relationship, a lot of guys are mainly focused on just getting laid that night. If a woman doesn't warm up to the idea they are onto the next girl. So if you are a girl and a guy approaches you and seems like he just wants sex, the idea is that if she turns him down, he will move on and she loses her chance. However, if she agrees to it he will stick around, get to know her more as a person, and might like her enough to actually want to date her. A lot of women have sex before they are ready for this reason. That's what's wrong with dating ladies. And it's all your fault.
somedude81 Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 Untouchable_Fire covered this pretty well. For some reason women would rather be a Top % guy's number 4 instead of being the one and only for a guy who isn't as desired.
Negative Nancy Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 I'm a little more convinced that men don't want a relationship until "the right woman" comes along, but what are the odds the average woman will BE that woman? And isn't that steering a little too much into the area of women needing to "change" their boyfriend? Like, trick/manipulate/nag him into submission? Obviously a man wouldn't mind being married to a woman who was perfect in every way.... but if the guy doesn't really want a committed relationship to begin with, what are the chances he'll settle for an average woman? This is exactly it. Men really don't wanna be with the average woman. They might use her for sex and string her along in a relationship but as soon as the hot woman of his dreams shows up, he'd dump plain jane in a heart beat. OR he gets married to plain jane, she raises his kids and when she's too old she gets tossed aside and traded in for a younger model. That is the sad reality these days, so don't be sad that there are no marriage-minded men out there - you might actually be dodging a bullet.
Woggle Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 We all know average men have women throwing themselves at them. Do you really think women are any different?
somedude81 Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 This is exactly it. Men really don't wanna be with the average woman. They might use her for sex and string her along in a relationship but as soon as the hot woman of his dreams shows up, he'd dump plain jane in a heart beat. OR he gets married to plain jane, she raises his kids and when she's too old she gets tossed aside and traded in for a younger model. That is the sad reality these days, so don't be sad that there are no marriage-minded men out there - you might actually be dodging a bullet. Now what kind of men are you talking about? The type that's in your avatar? To that I say, "No sh*t."
ThaWholigan Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 This is exactly it. Men really don't wanna be with the average woman. They might use her for sex and string her along in a relationship but as soon as the hot woman of his dreams shows up, he'd dump plain jane in a heart beat. OR he gets married to plain jane, she raises his kids and when she's too old she gets tossed aside and traded in for a younger model. That is the sad reality these days, so don't be sad that there are no marriage-minded men out there - you might actually be dodging a bullet. Once again, this assumes that there is this concrete idea of what constitutes a "plain jane" and a "model" and that men simply follow accordingly in robot fashion to these faux guidelines. This is simply a fallacy in my opinion, and one that's as contemptuous as the nice guy/equivalent theories thrown around on this forum and other places online. Very often in my experiences, one man's "plain jane" is another man's "model". I think the issue is more to do with the type of men/women one might be attracted to not reciprocating, to which I say, there are many similar people walking around, no need to use that as an excuse to tar us all with the same brush
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 I find it kind of funny that Gay people are fighting like crazy to get access to marriage, while straight people are running away from it. I'm thinking in 10 years after they have had a chance to taste divorce and all of the crap that goes along with marriage they are going to fight to get rid of it. Personally, I'm really interested to see how a court handles a custody dispute between 2 mothers... or two dads? If it's 2 dads... do they automatically hand custody over to the first female that is willing to accept? Do they then order both men to pay child support to her? I think it's going to leave some family courts totally baffled. Either no man available to screw over... or an extra one.
Queen Zenobia Posted February 6, 2012 Posted February 6, 2012 I find it kind of funny that Gay people are fighting like crazy to get access to marriage, while straight people are running away from it. I'm thinking in 10 years after they have had a chance to taste divorce and all of the crap that goes along with marriage they are going to fight to get rid of it. Personally, I'm really interested to see how a court handles a custody dispute between 2 mothers... or two dads? If it's 2 dads... do they automatically hand custody over to the first female that is willing to accept? Do they then order both men to pay child support to her? I think it's going to leave some family courts totally baffled. Either no man available to screw over... or an extra one. Hopefully at that point we can finally start treating people as truly equal and as individuals, not as groups. Collectivist, or "group rights" are antithetical to a truly free society.
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