RecordProducer Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Has anyone found it a big deal or difficult to date someone who has not gone to school or is not on the same "level"? I am not trying to be judgmental, but I don't know if I should stick to my own "kind" or if dating someone who didn't go to college or really doesn't have much of a desire to do so has a downside.Viking, you have enough experience talking to people throughout your life so you know your intellectual level and needs. I personally wouldn't date someone who has less than a bachelor's degree (I am working toward my JD now), but I also wouldn't date a person with a higher degree if he couldn't match my intellectual level. I like the deep topics, I like global subjects and unique opinions. I need a person who develops his mind and widens his horizons every day; a curious, critical, thinking person who can express himself eloquently, who can understand complex concepts, and who will teach me a lot; who will understand my humor and make me laugh. I don't think I can find that in someone who has never gone to college (or has dropped out). I need to admire my man and what he does in his life. But, I am a woman; men seem to be less restrictive and demanding when it comes to women's intellect. You have to figure out what makes you happy. If you feel thatyour GF is below your intellectual level AND if it bothers you then you should seek someone more similar to yourself. I have dated guys in the past who weren't educated and it bothered me. It bothered me a lot. But I know people who are not bothered. Nobody can tell you "it doesn't matter how smart or educated or well-read your partner is" if YOU think it does matter. And vice versa.
jobaba Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Viking, you have enough experience talking to people throughout your life so you know your intellectual level and needs. I personally wouldn't date someone who has less than a bachelor's degree (I am working toward my JD now), but I also wouldn't date a person with a higher degree if he couldn't match my intellectual level. I like the deep topics, I like global subjects and unique opinions. I need a person who develops his mind and widens his horizons every day; a curious, critical, thinking person who can express himself eloquently, who can understand complex concepts, and who will teach me a lot; who will understand my humor and make me laugh. I don't think I can find that in someone who has never gone to college (or has dropped out). I need to admire my man and what he does in his life. But, I am a woman; men seem to be less restrictive and demanding when it comes to women's intellect. You have to figure out what makes you happy. If you feel thatyour GF is below your intellectual level AND if it bothers you then you should seek someone more similar to yourself. I have dated guys in the past who weren't educated and it bothered me. It bothered me a lot. But I know people who are not bothered. Nobody can tell you "it doesn't matter how smart or educated or well-read your partner is" if YOU think it does matter. And vice versa. 1) Good luck with finding a job as an attorney once you get out AND pass the bar. A bunch of my friends graduated from Top 50 Law and started at ~ $40K or less after looking for work for almost a year. 2) Complex concepts, like differential equations, and fluid dynamics? Didn't teach you that in law school did they? Everything is relative... It is my sincere hope that everybody gets to encounter hardships and steps backwards as many times as me during life. Humility is really an underrated quality.
jobaba Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 pretty close, commercial development, we own a couple of big retail stores at the moment. i'm sort of in between. i'm 35, but i grew up around the business, my dad was the first generation, so i had an inside track with the contacts and what not, admittedly. either way there are things to do that don't require a degree, you just need a degree to work for someone else, that's all. We're almost the same age. Yea, you can make good $ in construction or real estate without a degree. But you have to be lucky...
LilMissMovinOn Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) We're almost the same age. Yea, you can make good $ in construction or real estate without a degree. But you have to be lucky... And INHERITING a pre-established 2nd generation business doesn't go astray either! As such I think that is a flawed example which goes against rather than for this debate. As for me, I would not date someone who is totally uneducated. Some college would be ok but prefer aiming for degree as this shows drive / motivation / not settling for bare minimum. The exception to this would be dating a qualified tradesperson. This to my mind trades are equally valid & comprise valuable skills development. It's true that not everyone is cut out for working behind a desk so let's not devalue talented craftsmen. Me: 6 yrs of full time study so far (4 yrs college & 2 yrs of uni; latter onging). All fee's paid upfront, self funded, house almost fully paid, no / family or partner to support me & the first of my family to be university educated. My perfect match? Probably a tradie. I've got the 'brains'. What I need is the brawn (so to speak). Although more 'brains' is fine so long as he's happy to pay for hiring the brawn as needed. lol Edited January 28, 2012 by LilMissMovinOn
colliejoanie Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Jeeeeez......the feeling of self importance in many of these posts makes me feel oily! OP....If this woman understands what you're saying, if you're able to talk about the things that are important to you, if she makes you laugh, makes you feel wonderful, makes you want to talk, and ALSO....... if you want to reciprocate.....than an education may not matter. I think it is up to each individual relationship and what you value as a core belief. If it's something you think will bother you the rest of your life (if it bothers you now, it most likely will bother you forever) I say find someone else. If it's too soon to tell, as it may be, ask yourself....are you having to explain your jokes to her? Is she interested in your career? Do you have a lot to talk about? I think this is totally up to you.......and the girl. She sounds like she's doing quite well without it.......and maybe there are extenuating circumstances as to why she didn't go further......And maybe she'll still go. Good luck. Follow what you feel deep inside. You can't change that feeling, I don't think.....so if you're feeling a bit off about it now, I think you need to own that. And no one will blame you for it.
kaylan Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Please, little boy. I use an actual grammar book. Being that I'm above the age of 12, I don't find everything on the Internet to be true and I despise 'lazy English.' Argue all you want, but it is what it is. Further, I likely gave more to charity than you made last year. True story. Lmao...are you upset? I stand by what I said. You say you use a grammar book, but you ignore actual dictionaries with your lame attempt to correct people in this thread on a particular word. Grab a real life dictionary from your local library and find the word converse in it. I just grabbed two in my house, not the internet. Btw ad hominem attacks against me hilighting your charitable donations have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Give me a break sister...no one cares how much you donate here, but good job patting yourself on the back xD.
Jane2011 Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) Naw, it's in every Merriam-Webster dictionary, including the real one. Won't find the definition in the Oxford, I don't believe, but I think it's considered a real word in American English, but not British or British-derived English. I found it in the Oxford English dictionary also. It's listed as a verb meaning "to engage in conversation." Also, I was the one who used it in my post (perhaps someone else did, too - I'm not sure). Glad to know I haven't gone crazy and erroneously been using "converse" as a verb all these years. My best friend from when I was 13 used to use it all the time; I picked it up from her...lol. Edited January 28, 2012 by Jane2011
runner Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 So, I am wondering about if you're dating someone who doesn't have the same educational background as you. I have two bachelors degrees and a certificate to teach English, and I'm proud that I finished university and am educated. I am starting to date a girl who went straight from high school into the work world and hasn't really pursued an education. I met her at the doctor's office I go to, but she's a receptionist. Has anyone found it a big deal or difficult to date someone who has not gone to school or is not on the same "level"? I am not trying to be judgmental, but I don't know if I should stick to my own "kind" or if dating someone who didn't go to college or really doesn't have much of a desire to do so has a downside. I never really talked with my last girlfriend about "deeper" stuff to be honest. I have other friends I discuss philosophy, politics, etc with. Sometimes I feel hindered by the disparities in our backgrounds. I am rather open and she is shy but somewhat open. I like her, but am just kind of torn. Thanks for your advice. if you define intelligence in terms of galileo and newton, then i could see it being a problem. but if you accept the idea that there are multiple forms/styles of intelligence- and granted the person played to their natural strengths- then no. IME i find myself wanting to hang out with my buddies who barely finished high school cos, whilst they can't go to town on the merits of kant, they bloody hell make me larf. and to me that's wot matters most: personality. not some bloody piece of paper with fancy mediaeval font on it. and yes, i apply this principle to my dating life
kiss_andmakeup Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) I haven't read the whole thread; just responding directly to the OP. My boyfriend has completed undergraduate college, medical school, residency, and a fellowship. Approximately 13 years of education. Myself? I have a high school diploma and a cosmetology license (I attended college - on a full scholarship actually - but didn't finish and decided to pursue cosmetology instead). We're on pretty extreme opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to education. We have interesting, thoughtful conversations and debates. He often asks me for my input on work-related conflicts, and I ask the same of him. He even has me proofread his powerpoint presentations that he gives to the residents at his hospital (I'm excellent with spelling and grammar), and I have him double-check my math when doing budgeting, taxes, etc (since I'm not exactly "excellent" with math). Is he smarter than me when it comes to mathematics, biology, chemistry, etc? Absolutely. Can I still hold my own in a conversation or debate with him? Absolutely. We play scrabble weekly and I beat him roughly half the time (and trust me, he doesn't let me win). One of the first compliments he paid me when we first started dating was how much he admired my wit and intelligence. In other words, there's no great disparity in our basic every day intellect. We are both intelligent people, with similar perspectives, and our differences only give us something to admire and learn from in each other. Don't be quick to judge someone based solely on their education...you could really be missing out. Go on a date or two with her...you should know rather quickly whether or not she's on your level. Edited January 28, 2012 by kiss_andmakeup
RecordProducer Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 1) Good luck with finding a job as an attorney once you get out AND pass the bar. A bunch of my friends graduated from Top 50 Law and started at ~ $40K or less after looking for work for almost a year. And what does that have to do with the subject of intellectual level sought in a partner? 2) Complex concepts, like differential equations, and fluid dynamics? Didn't teach you that in law school did they? Everything is relative...Yes, if he understands such concepts, he will likely understand other complex concepts. You're forgetting that I am looking for mutual intellectual chemistry which needs to be proven through conversations. I didn't say if I meet a guy whose IQ is 150, I'm scheduling a wedding the next day. It is my sincere hope that everybody gets to encounter hardships and steps backwards as many times as me during life. Humility is really an underrated quality. You're the only one who's encountered hardship in life, right - I keep forgetting that. My life has been nothing but roses (without thorns).
jobaba Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) And what does that have to do with the subject of intellectual level sought in a partner? Yes, if he understands such concepts, he will likely understand other complex concepts. You're forgetting that I am looking for mutual intellectual chemistry which needs to be proven through conversations. I didn't say if I meet a guy whose IQ is 150, I'm scheduling a wedding the next day. You're the only one who's encountered hardship in life, right - I keep forgetting that. My life has been nothing but roses (without thorns). I hate the term 'intellectual level'... I have met few people who separate themselves as being significantly more intelligent, in a worldly conversation sense than the masses, but there are more than several who THINK they are... One of my buds is actually like this. We can walk down the street and he can name more styles of architecture than I can (even though that's closely related to my field of work). He knows a great deal about political theory. He rattles off the names of famous economists and their contributions that I've never heard of. And he knows EVERYTHING about computers and tech. Guess what? He's also mid 30s and has never had a girlfriend as far as I know. He is at a different intellectual level in a knowledge sense. He is a nerd and I suggested that he date a nerd. Edited January 28, 2012 by jobaba
Dust Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Lmao...are you upset? I stand by what I said. You say you use a grammar book, but you ignore actual dictionaries with your lame attempt to correct people in this thread on a particular word. Grab a real life dictionary from your local library and find the word converse in it. I just grabbed two in my house, not the internet. Btw ad hominem attacks against me hilighting your charitable donations have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Give me a break sister...no one cares how much you donate here, but good job patting yourself on the back xD. I've flushed poop down the toilet worth more then she'll ever see in her life.
Dust Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 I haven't read the whole thread; just responding directly to the OP. You're so pretty. Deal with the devil being made as I type:love:
kiss_andmakeup Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 You're so pretty. Deal with the devil being made as I type:love: Aw, shucks. :o
carhill Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 In other words, there's no great disparity in our basic every day intellect. We are both intelligent people, with similar perspectives, and our differences only give us something to admire and learn from in each other. I admire your insight, having been socialized in a similar environment. Does the pendulum still tend to swing this way or would reversing the genders in your example (you as the doctor and he as the cosmetologist or similar trade) have equal traction and attraction? What I seem to be reading is that, no matter the level of the woman's intellectual and/or education and/or profession 'status', generally she prefers a man of equal or greater empirical 'status'. I'm asking this question because of the data points of a number of my male friends, who are generally in their second M's, and some with women who appear to 'exceed' them in 'status' (education, financial, and perhaps intellectual). I didn't really think about that until reading some of these threads on the subject. It appears this observed dynamic would be outlier to the conventional LS wisdom on the subject, if I'm interpreting it correctly. In any event, good luck to you and BF. Life is a great journey to take with a valued companion. Lastly, I have an anecdote from two days ago. My best friend and I were out looking at another real estate deal and the chic lady realtor (she said she was 53, so our age) was sizing us up and 'qualifying' us. She was a pretty sharp gal but I was noting how she was handling the 'interview', based on her questions and the information she offered. She saw two guys dressed in jeans slogging around and examining wiring and looking for termites and etc, etc, and was forming an impression of us, our 'status' and 'prospects' for a deal. While she was doing that, we were gesturing to each other and using our eye contact to communicate what we were both analyzing and she was blissfully unaware of what really was going on. Either of us could have written her a check for the house (cash offer) but she would never know that or even guess it by observing our behaviors and appearance. I could tell she saw us as 'lessers', just a couple of blue collar guys who drink beer after 5, one a college dropout (me) and another with an eighth grade education (him). Interesting how life works. Everything, including apparent intellect, education and 'status', isn't always as it seems. Time reveals all truths. I prefer to err on the side of acknowledging that each of us brings both apparent and hidden strengths to the table; strengths which have value. Time reveals that value.
Feelin Frisky Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 I want to be with someone that I can discuss politics, philosophy, psychology etc with, and with someone who values learning, because that's very important for me and I'd like compatibility in that respect. If those qualities comes in someone without higher education, that's fine. It's about attitude and qualities, not certificates. Some level of street wise is important, too. ^Applause. There are people who are alive in their own times and stretch themselves to step out of their own time and either learn relevancies that come from availing one's self of post or extrapolating the meaning of the past and present and thus "seeing" potential futures, or there are those who revel in academic hierarchy, compete with their credentials, and consider themselves "accomplished" by how much they've studied. I don't believe you can be both. Either you're inside the box and impressed by it enough to climb high within it, or you see the box a prison which limits you from being a man or woman for all seasons. Can a couple made up of one of each of these two mentalities get along? I think so but not if the man is the one inside the box usually. He wants to top a yielding hierarchy with her next fiddle. A woman is less likely to be up-tight about that and appreciate a maverick.
sweetjasmine Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 I'm a lifelong learner and nerd. I have a BA and MA from two of the world's highest ranked universities and am planning on going for a professional degree. My fiance went straight into the military out of high school, and when he got out, he enrolled in community college, transferring to an excellent school after 2 years. Our slightly different educational background has never been an issue. I'm smarter than he is and more knowledgeable in some ways, and he's smarter than I am and more knowledgeable in other ways. What works is that we're both curious and interested in learning about new things and we both love learning from each other. It makes for great conversation. I respect him for and admire his talents and hard work, and he returns the favor. Looking back, I've had that similar "intellectual connection" with people who didn't have college degrees, and there have been plenty of college classmates who I didn't really have much in common with. In general, I tend to get along best with college graduates than people who didn't opt for higher education. In that sense, I somewhat agree with zengirl's perspective. Although I can easily connect with someone who didn't go to college, I'm extremely put off by the attitude that a college degree is just a worthless piece of paper because any monkey can fill in a scantron sheet and write a fill-in-the-blanks essay. I find that attitude extremely insulting, especially since it's borne of total ignorance of what getting a college degree might be like and because it lumps the experiences of hundreds of thousands of people at thousands of different institutions into a neat little box. I make it a point to respect other people's hard work and wish others did the same.
Mutant Debutante Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Preferences are fine, date whoever you want. And hey, higher education is great. But it must be nice for some of you to be so privileged that the only reason you can fathom someone not having a degree is that they have no ambition, or just don't care about education.
catchthedrift Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) This made me a little bit angry. There are oh so many people out there who went to college and are absolute philistines. There are people who went to college and now work in dull jobs that make good money but they might have no interests in anything intellectual. Yes, I know a lot of those people. It makes me angry how people are superficial and judgmental in this country when it comes to things like this. Yes, I have never felt such superficiality anywhere else. Its something a lot of people I met in the US are putting first when getting to know somebody. For example, I am 25 years old. I finished high school in Germany and I worked as a singer/songwriter and photographer in Berlin for many years, because I couldn't decide yet about what I wanted to go to university for. I travelled a lot, lived in London and moved back to Berlin. Then I came to NYC. I am super poor so all I can afford is community college. I consider myself incredibly smart and college is not challenging to me. I get straight As. I am an honors student and got accepted into an amazing four year school, but I cant go because I can not afford it. What I am trying to say is, judging somebody's intellect on their college education level is crap. Yes, overall college educated people might have an overall more knowledge about general things (hail to core philosophy, spanish for beginners, psychology 1, etc), but that doesn't necessarily make them people who are genuinely interested in arts, politics, philosophy, literature, independent cinema or whatsoever. The only way you can tell if you fit with somebody is getting to know them. THEN you can judge if them having a certain education is of importance - or not. The end. Edited January 29, 2012 by catchthedrift
tigressA Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 I appreciate the responses, and I did not anticipate four pages just a few hours after going to bed... To add a few more details, I have only gone on a few dates with her (perhaps using the term dating/seeing means a little bit longer than what I have had). I first went out with her on Saturday...its Friday so I haven't really had an opportunity to talk to her about anything more than just trying to get to know her. One of the main reasons I am hesitant is because of the income disparity between college and non college grads. In my town, there are not a lot of jobs for college grads, so I am trying to figure out a way to use an advanced degree while living here. Currently I work retail but am trying to get a new job with an aerospace firm in town-kind of an anomaly when it comes to the area. I was not trying to judge or paint with large strokes. I know tons of "educated" people who are just personality-less or dumb as a fence post. I am aware that a degree does not make a person. I just have only dated girls who were still in college. This girl has a new car, owns her own condo and seems to be rather modest and live within her means. She's not a flashy girl, but does dress nicely and look attractive. I am not looking down on her I was just wondering what, if any issues may arise from the difference. I'm still getting to know her and she's kind of quiet, so it is taking a bit to get to know her. I'm not trying to be a douche bag, it was just a question. Thanks. Like (I think it was Zengirl) mentioned, it seems like she has significantly more money than you do, since you work in retail and haven't found a job related to your degree, while she is living within her means and yet has a new car and owns her own place. Even if you end up making significantly more than she does, the fact that she seems to have her ducks in a row and is supporting herself with no trouble at all should not have you worried about a potential income disparity. You should only worry about that if she's struggling to pay all her bills/doesn't prioritize things properly. Anyway, thanks for clarifying the situation. Apologies for coming off a little harsh in my prior posts, I was projecting issues from my own R.
RecordProducer Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 I hate the term 'intellectual level'... All non-intellectual people hate those who seek intellectual people. Duh! Just like all fat women call men who like fit women - shallow. We should all lower our criteria to the point of not caring about looks, education, income, intelligence, knowledge, height, weight, and penis size - to make all the losers in this world happy. Because they want the best women and it's not fair that the best women want the best men. Oh, I know what follows next: define "best."
123321 Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 There are a lot of people who are bright, have a lot of common sense and generally take an interest in the world around them but who are not university educated. There are also plenty of others with MSc or PhD who are too nerdy/geeky/idealilstic because they have spent a lot of their lives 'institutionalised' and make annoying dating partners. So it depends on what matters to you really. This was almost exactly what I was gonna say, so just ++1 to this.
jobaba Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 All non-intellectual people hate those who seek intellectual people. Duh! Just like all fat women call men who like fit women - shallow. We should all lower our criteria to the point of not caring about looks, education, income, intelligence, knowledge, height, weight, and penis size - to make all the losers in this world happy. Because they want the best women and it's not fair that the best women want the best men. Oh, I know what follows next: define "best." No, you're right. Carry on...
zengirl Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 I haven't read the whole thread; just responding directly to the OP. My boyfriend has completed undergraduate college, medical school, residency, and a fellowship. Approximately 13 years of education. Myself? I have a high school diploma and a cosmetology license (I attended college - on a full scholarship actually - but didn't finish and decided to pursue cosmetology instead). We're on pretty extreme opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to education. I suppose it isn't college, but I consider my friends who have attended 'beauty school' (or whatever they're calling it these days, but several of my friends went to the Aveda institute and now make good money) to have done the equivalent of attending college or trade school. They worked just as hard, learned a specific trade. As an amendment to my earlier statement: Trade school, to me, is fine as well, in a partner. My husband has a college degree, but his degree was much more similar to getting a trade school degree than the average university degree---it was a rush program in 2 years (it's a 4 year degree) with mostly hands-on training. I think school is school, FTR, regardless of what you study. Though if studying a trade, it had better be one you want to do! Preferences are fine, date whoever you want. And hey, higher education is great. But it must be nice for some of you to be so privileged that the only reason you can fathom someone not having a degree is that they have no ambition, or just don't care about education. I have this idea because I started with nothing. I earned every dollar that paid for every one of my degrees, either by earning/finding/meeting the requirements for scholarships or working. My parents contributed the sum total of $800 to my undergraduate education, by buying me my first used car. They did help me out with living expenses---mainly grocery gift certificates and health insurance---during the years I was in grad school, particularly during the internship when I couldn't work and was using savings, but I could've done it without them by taking out minimal loans. And that was a Masters degree. ANYONE can do it, if they care enough and do the right things as a teenager. Many people take a long time to get their lives together, though, and it is more of a struggle if you do that. I do understand some people never got the message that they COULD do it, and that held them back, but nowadays (and even in my generation) there's so many sources of information out there, most people have no excuse. I'm not saying it's easy; I'm saying if someone really wanted an education (I mean REALLY wanted it, more than anything else), they could get one, in the VAST majority of cases.
123321 Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 My Uncle worked in a job that allowed him to read 5 or 6 hours a day and he didn't waste it on fiction. Although he had a mere high school education he was one of the sharpest and most knowledgeable people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. Unusual, sure, but it bears remembering that paying tuition and attending classes isn't the only way to expand ones knowledge.
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