johan Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 ...but I have always felt that some of us were this close to achieving real communication with him. It's important for you to believe that, because it's so enticing. If not for that reward system people would dislike him outright and wouldn't continue to engage in soothing ways. Even his marriage serves as a reward for people here. It's an extra strong dose of hope that keeps you thinking real improvement is just one post away. And it's something to fight for, because you automatically sympathize with his wife. I've often wondered if it isn't an ongoing experiment of some sort. We might all someday find out how neatly we slotted into categories and volunteered to play standard roles he defined in his dissertation. I'm open to the idea that he's for real. But when I think that, I feel extra disgusted by his lack of effort. This is his responsibility. And no one goes this long without changing painful things like this. It either gets worse or it gets better. It doesn't stay verbatim identical.
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 I agree. Woggle is either a whole different kind of sick than I've ever encountered, or playing. Neither have anything to do with "misandry." Okay, I hereby vow to sidestep any further participation in this crap. I've said that before though ...
Author Woggle Posted January 28, 2012 Author Posted January 28, 2012 I can assure that I am for real and everybody here can attest to the fact that I had a long period where I genuinely seemed to be doing better and I go through periods like that. It's right after those periods where I have my hopes up and feel good when I get slapped back to reality. I don't get worse or better. I just go up and down. One day I can be all positive and the next day I pretty much don't trust any woman. My worst crash came after my wife and I got back from a three week vacation back in 2009. I didn't have internet access and I just let go in a way I hadn't in ages then I got back home and went on the internet only to see how things really are.
xxoo Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 My worst crash came after my wife and I got back from a three week vacation back in 2009. I didn't have internet access and I just let go in a way I hadn't in ages then I got back home and went on the internet only to see how things really are. How things really are: Real life, with your real wife or Internet message boards hmmmm...... You are a very slow learner, Woggle. Most people would put together, "I am happy when I am away from the internet, and unhappy when I read on the internet. I think I should take a sledgehammer to my laptop and be happy," in a lot less than 6 years.
betterdeal Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 I think I'll join Mme. Chaucer in not further enabling this harmful habit of his.
TaraMaiden Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 I think I'll join Mme. Chaucer in not further enabling this harmful habit of his. Ladies, you are sooooo slow. I put him on 'ignore' just after my last comment. If I read anything else of his, it will be for the sheer and unique entertainment value. Laughter is a healthy thing. He's tenacious, I'll give him that. Selectively deaf as a post.
Author Woggle Posted January 28, 2012 Author Posted January 28, 2012 How things really are: Real life, with your real wife or Internet message boards hmmmm...... You are a very slow learner, Woggle. Most people would put together, "I am happy when I am away from the internet, and unhappy when I read on the internet. I think I should take a sledgehammer to my laptop and be happy," in a lot less than 6 years. The internet is made up of real people and it is many people unlike my wife and I who are just one couple. Let's use this analogy. If a whole bunch of people you knew were getting a disease would you not be scared that maybe it would affect you as well? This is how I view the walkway wife trend. With women in droves leaving men at the drop of a dime for the smallest reasons it is very hard to feel secure in my marriage without wondering if I will be blind sided as well.
soserious1 Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) The internet is made up of real people and it is many people unlike my wife and I who are just one couple. Let's use this analogy. If a whole bunch of people you knew were getting a disease would you not be scared that maybe it would affect you as well? This is how I view the walkway wife trend. With women in droves leaving men at the drop of a dime for the smallest reasons it is very hard to feel secure in my marriage without wondering if I will be blind sided as well. A couple points which I've tried to drive home to you many times in the past. 1. Nobody can ever be privy to the inner working's of another couple's marriage. 2. Who files often has no bearing on which partner caused the split. In my marriage I was the one to file, by your figuring then I'm just another walk away wife. An observation I've made is that at first many are shocked when their spouse requests a divorce, they get up in arms angry, pronounce themselves perfect spouses & insist there were no warning signs. Later, when feelings have cooled & reason returns comes the quiet acknowledgement that she did indeed tell him in words and action that she was unhappy more than once. As to your marriage, the only people responsible for it's success or failure are you & your wife. You keep posting this stuff, yet you refuse to answer the question, what exactly are you wanting us to say or do in response? If you want to believe all women are hateful monsters, callously & cruelly dumping faithful, loving husbands for no reason other than the fact that it amuses them to do so, have at it. I'm joining the others here who've decided to stop enabling you in this pov. Edited January 28, 2012 by soserious1
Author Woggle Posted January 28, 2012 Author Posted January 28, 2012 I don't want to believe it but sometimes I can't help it. Why do you think I like reading those happy relationship threads. It's like WOW some women actually are capable of loving a man.
Author Woggle Posted January 28, 2012 Author Posted January 28, 2012 What I would like in response is just to feel better after reading so much misandrist crap. Maybe if I worded it that way instead of just posting hateful and misogynistic crap I would get a better response but I am often so angry I just post whatever I am thinking at the moment. Reading some of that stuff sometimes literally gives me a headache and shoots my blood pressure up.
soserious1 Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 What I would like in response is just to feel better after reading so much misandrist crap. Maybe if I worded it that way instead of just posting hateful and misogynistic crap I would get a better response but I am often so angry I just post whatever I am thinking at the moment. Reading some of that stuff sometimes literally gives me a headache and shoots my blood pressure up. And yet you deliberately seek out that "crap" and then hurry here to post it, inciting other angry people in order to get your fix. Believe what you want to believe about women, think what you will about marriage & relationships it's of no matter to me.
johan Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Every time I put my hand on the table and smash it with a hammer, it hurts so bad. I just want people to tell me it will be ok. Maybe if that's how I worded it instead of just telling people how much I hate hammers, they would be more willing to continue giving me encouragement and sympathy. But honestly, whenever I put my hand down and smash it again with a hammer, it just really hurts. Oh by the way, I have no plans to ever take control of this and stop smashing my hand with hammers. The benefit outweighs the pain. Unfortunately it's a losing proposition for everyone who cares enough to respond, people who don't realize I'm deliberately smashing my hand and running to LS looking for as much sympathy and attention as they have the patience to offer. I'll take everything you want to give me. I offer nothing.
Author Woggle Posted January 28, 2012 Author Posted January 28, 2012 It is not like smashing my hands with hammers. I always say I would give anything to be proven wrong and I mean it. Exactly what do you want me to offer?
soserious1 Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 It is not like smashing my hands with hammers. I always say I would give anything to be proven wrong and I mean it. Exactly what do you want me to offer? It's not our job to "prove you wrong" if your own marriage isn't proof enough that not all women are evil then how on earth can anything said here help you?
Author Woggle Posted January 29, 2012 Author Posted January 29, 2012 I once put full trust in one woman and was burnt and with the things I see around me it is very hard not to be paranoid.
desertmoon Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 I don't want to believe it but sometimes I can't help it. Why do you think I like reading those happy relationship threads. It's like WOW some women actually are capable of loving a man. lol...whilst saying to yourself "happy? yeah right!" and you roll your eyes.????...
Author Woggle Posted January 29, 2012 Author Posted January 29, 2012 lol...whilst saying to yourself "happy? yeah right!" and you roll your eyes.????... Not true. I know people here think their positive encouragement has no effect but I would probably much worse off if I didn't see examples of good women on these boards. I mean that sincerely.
johan Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 It is not like smashing my hands with hammers. I always say I would give anything to be proven wrong and I mean it. Exactly what do you want me to offer? It's exactly like sitting down and hitting your hands with hammers. There is no difference. You go off and deliberately seek out the very things that upset you, and then come back here expecting people to jump through the hoop with you again. It's the same hoop. You set it up and everyone starts jumping. It's the most mindless, repetitive thing I've ever seen. I have a hard time believing it's even real. No one can prove you wrong, Woggle. So stop asking them to. You know as well as anyone else: there are no guarantees in life. There is no proof. And every adult has to find a way to face that. What do I want you to offer? Take responsibility for yourself. Use your brain for a change, instead of using everyone else's. Make a decision. Make a change. Do something. As far as this problem goes, LS has nothing to offer you except repetition and encouragement to continue having screwed up thoughts. Offer that, Woggle. Reward people's multi-year patience and caring with some personal growth, and Heaven forbid, some progress and maturity. Maybe start responding to other people's problems. Offer some advice to someone else for a change. You aren't the only one around here with problems.
Author Woggle Posted January 29, 2012 Author Posted January 29, 2012 Trust me it is real but I will try a week without looking at tabloid gender war crap. Maybe it will do me some good.
johan Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 What do you mean "maybe"? Every third post on this thread criticizes you for deliberately exposing yourself to that crap. This just goes right to the heart of my issue with you, Woggle. Your threads are the longest ones on the entire site, and you get absolutely nothing out of them. You miss the most important advice you're given. How can you possibly say "maybe"?
dreamingoftigers Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 Actually hey: Woggle, give me some advice. How can I Ever trust a man again with some of the horrible ways men treat women and after all I have been through with my father and husband? How am I ever supposed to believe that men are even capable of live and respect. Every day when I hate the paper or hear the news, there are dozens of examples of men mistreating others and their families. Am I simply just naive or stupid for believing that there are any trustworthy men out there?
Pyro Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 I just go up and down. One day I can be all positive and the next day I pretty much don't trust any woman. well since you aren't going to counseling have you ever considered going on meds? Your words above sound a bit like Bi-polar ism.
Author Woggle Posted January 29, 2012 Author Posted January 29, 2012 well since you aren't going to counseling have you ever considered going on meds? Your words above sound a bit like Bi-polar ism. I am in counseling. The problem with me is that I very much don't want to mistrust women but every time I hear about a guy going through drama with a woman I just turn angry. When I read misandrist comments or when I hear them from any particular woman I just get angry. It sets off all types of defenses against the kind of crap I have been dealing with most of my life until recently. The other thing that gets me angry is how other men on this board are treated. I very much have a soft spot for any man in pain because I know what it feels like and when I see any man on here getting torn apart even though it is obviously coming from a place of pain I get angry. I hate seeing men go through the same things I did and I get very protective.
RecordProducer Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) I feel extra disgusted by his lack of effort.Johan, your post was great, as many of your posts are, but Woggle is struggling with his fear of women and he can't really help it. Yes, he can go to counseling, but it's really him who needs to snap out of his fear, and it seems like he doesn't have the emotional tools to do so. Mocking his lack of effort is like mocking someone with broken legs for being unable to get up. I think it's crucial that we continue to try to help him. In fact, I am surprised at how much patience he has with people who bash him all the time. He is probably the only poster on this board who has never gotten into a direct conflict with any man or woman on the board. He is also re-married to a woman who cheated on someone in the past and he is a dedicated husband. He is doing pretty well, considering he had a crazy mother who abused him and a crazy ex-wife who was shooting at him. And on top of all that, he comes here for help! That's pretty darn good in my book. He posts in a certain way because he wants people to tell him "Wog, you're so wrong, you're an idiot and ass for thinking what you think and feeling what you feel" - precisely because he doesn't want to think and feel that way. He is not trying to convince us that women are bad - he is trying to elicit answers that will convince him that not all women are bad. It's right after those periods where I have my hopes up and feel good when I get slapped back to reality. I don't get worse or better. I just go up and down. One day I can be all positive and the next day I pretty much don't trust any woman.Your fear of being unloved, rejected, abandoned, abused or despised by a woman stems from your childhood - that much you know. It's your reality: a woman hurt you (your mother), then another woman hurt you (your first wife). Your relationship with your mother created a bad foundation for your interactions with women because you see every woman as your mother. You want to be loved unconditionally, like your mother loved you or was supposed to love you, but you felt like she never did. So, you feel like when you expected love (from your mom), you received rejection; and consequently, you project that on your wife: if I love her and expect her love back, how do I know she's not going to reject me, too? Well, you know, because she hasn't rejected you so far. You've been married for a few years now and your marriage is stable, right? Is this right? Is your wife good to you? Is she supportive? Does she demand things that you can't deliver? Does she criticize you? Is she cheating on you (to the best of your knowledge)? I bet after the good times, you withdraw in your shell and become distant. And she tries to understand that but it's hard for her to not take it personally, considering she tries hard to make things work. And when you withdraw, she probably thinks that no matter how much effort she puts in, you will never be open to loving her completely. By doing that, Wog, you're creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. You definitely need a woman to fill the void in your heart that your mother created. I can see that by the fact that you were married twice at the age of 27 and you married a woman who is 15 years older than you. Additionally, you're obsessed with your fear of rejection, like guys your age are obsessed with big tits, beer and baseball. You have to find a way to let your fears go. We have to let go of everything that brings nothing but pain. Some pain is useful because it motivates us to do something useful, but your fears have no use in your life whatsoever. You have a loving wife, you love her dearly, and you must surrender to those good feelings. You must tell yourself these things: First, if I continue to have doubts about my wife, I will push her away. If I trust her completely, I will be able to enjoy our relationship to the fullest which is a guarantee that we will be a great couple forever. Second, I can't control everything and even if I get rejected by my wife someday, I will deal with it then - now, I will live with certainty in my heart that everything will stay good, because everything is good right now and has been good for the past few years - and the only problem was the paranoia I created. Third, as much as I can't control everything, I have control over myself and I will not allow my stupid fears to ruin my second marriage. I have a good wife, I trust her and love her. I will do whatever is in my power to make this marriage work. Fourth, I don't care about other f*cked up couples and marriages. My only concern is my own marriage. I will look at other people's misery and think thank God it's not me. My worst crash came after my wife and I got back from a three week vacation back in 2009. I didn't have internet access and I just let go in a way I hadn't in ages then I got back home and went on the internet only to see how things really are. There are many, many happy couples out there, Wog. And you're one of them. I have two failed marriages but none of them was because I hate(d) men or my ex-husbands. I love men. I just don't love the men who are jerks. I also don't like women who are jerks. Hatred doesn't have a monopoly on any one gender. Look at how some cultures treat women: they stone them to death for talking to another man, and yet, men can do whatever they want. There is much more abuse, maltreatment, hatred, discrimination and persecution of women by men in this world. Can you see that reality for a change? Can't you see that your fear is nothing but paranoia? Are you willing to accept that? I fear accidents, violence and disaster but those things can really happen, no matter how careful I am. There's nothing that can guarantee to me that I will come back home in one piece tomorrow. But your fear of women is not based on anything realistic because only your wife can hurt you, not the women on the internet. The internet is made up of real people and it is many people unlike my wife and I who are just one couple. Wog, it's your inability to discern the fact that you're the lucky one who is happily married from the fact that not all other people are so lucky. You are not those couples. You are you. Let's use this analogy. If a whole bunch of people you knew were getting a disease would you not be scared that maybe it would affect you as well? A whole bunch of other people do get terrible diseases and die from them: cancer, heart attack, stroke, AIDS, Hepatitis B, C, and many other diseases. In addition, thousands of people die in motor vehiicle and other accidents every week. Not to mention hurricanes, fires and other natural disasters. Aren't you afraid of dying or becoming disabled? Not only there is much more of a possibility for that to happen to you, but it's alsomuch worse than being hurt by a woman. This is how I view the walkway wife trend. With women in droves leaving men at the drop of a dime for the smallest reasons it is very hard to feel secure in my marriage without wondering if I will be blind sided as well. Even if she walks away it's not the end of the world. You don't depend on her physically or financially and you don't have kids. So, you would only have to deal with emotional pain. Do you really think that the remote possibility of her walking away is worth your ruining your marriage? I don't want to believe it but sometimes I can't help it. Why do you think I like reading those happy relationship threads. It's like WOW some women actually are capable of loving a man.Is your woman capable of loving a man? Because my ex-husbands were not, but I didn't lose faith in love and men. And I am a pretty screwed up person. If I can have faith (and I don't even have a man in my life now), you can, too. Reading some of that stuff sometimes literally gives me a headache and shoots my blood pressure up.Does reading about crimes and people trafficking and hungry children make you angry? You're looking to find these articles, Wog, because you want to feed your anger toward and fear of women. I once put full trust in one woman and was burnt and with the things I see around me it is very hard not to be paranoid. We were all burnt, but when we find someone new, we usually let go of the past fears. But you hate your loving wife for the crap that your mother and your ex-wife did to you. That's not fair to your wife. That's just not fair at all! You're torturing her because somebody else hurt you. And then you're blaming her for being a woman. And you will be blaming her when she tellsyou someday that she can't take your mental abuse and mistrust anymore. And then you will say you were right for not trusting her because she letyou down, when in fact, you're the one letting her down. I know you don't want to do that, so surrender toyour feelings and enjoy your marriage. Consider it an order - just like you have to sit at work from 9 to 5 and you assume a certain professinal role. Just like a police officer has to arrest, a judge has to wear a robe, and a day caregiver has to change babies' diapers - a married person has to trust his spouse unless the spouse gives him a good reason not to. You have to put your marriage above your fears. Other people's marriages are none of your business. Those people inflict pain onto each other on a regular basis and you can't just take some statements out of a context and say "Here, all women hate men; therefore, my wife hates me." Not true. I know people here think their positive encouragement has no effect but I would probably much worse off if I didn't see examples of good women on these boards. I mean that sincerely.The problem is that it's enough for you to see that a woman expects from a man to pick up the tab to conclude that all women are bad and your wife is too. You are ready to jump into concluding that women hate men and are horrible as a group of people. But you never think about what some men do to women, or maybe it's just not important to you. You can't divide people into good and bad or any other category. You just divide them into men and women; and anything that you don't like that a woman does is proof that all women are terrible men haters. Trust me it is real but I will try a week without looking at tabloid gender war crap. Maybe it will do me some good.Where do you even get this gender crap? I don't even notice it. When men here post crap against all women, I don't take it seriously. I always think they're bitter at the moment about something but still capable of being in functional relationships. Edited January 29, 2012 by RecordProducer
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