Pursuing a male-dominated career field as a woman

[carhill]

All I'll share is that, if you feel passionate about one segment of your major, or even run across something else incidentally that keeps you up all night because you feel driven to consume every last iota of it, all the gender stuff and friend stuff will fade away. Yes, there will perhaps be gender barriers along the path and, yes, there may be similar in the dynamics of making friends, but wanting to walk the path will outweigh those concerns. You have a healthy and loving partner to walk by your side. That's a real bonus.

 

Of course, I'm speaking from the other end of the path, looking back upon it, and work in a field where practically no women exist and have always wondered why that is, since the pay is really good and technology has taken most of the dangers away. Heck, my mom did it back during the war because all the men were in the military and they needed weapons of war built. That proved women could do the work. Loving it is another matter, of course.

 

Zengirl made a good point about friendships relevant to education and job dynamics in that they should be a neutral situation, relevant to the shared study or work matters. Gender becomes irrelevant so, if you *want* friends in those dynamics, *be* a friend. Yes, there are rejections and levels of friendship. This will continue throughout life. Often, in business and professional circles, friends of both genders are the keys to the path of success, hence the old saying 'it's not what you know rather who you know'. That result takes effort, risk and failure.

 

It's a great time to be young. Enjoy it.

[Els]

Unlike some oldschool male dominated fields (sales, business, etc) where there are "good old boys,"

 

Really?? I thought being a (good-looking) woman in sales was actually a huge advantage. Like, employers know that good-looking women are likely to attract male customers a lot and sell very well.

 

I think women in tech actually have a HUGE advantage. Hubby works in a tech field with very few women, and his company will hire women just for the different perspective (some of the customers are women, and they do need some women on staff), sometimes even if they have less experience or programming skills than men because they have so few women who apply. It depends on what field of CS you work in whether or not that will be the case, but it happens a lot. And plenty of hiring managers in CS just don't care, as long as you're good.

 

That's good to know. I'm not really worried about being disadvantaged in hiring, more so about personal perception by peers and superiors, and inability to network.

 

As far as making friends, I don't think in platonic situations, you can expect men to come to you. Just be friendly. Friendships should be relatively gender neutral, after all.

 

Oh, I agree. I'm just not used to it. I guess I'm afraid of people thinking, 'Geez, why does she chat up guys ALL the time? Is she that desperate/ugly/etc?' If that isn't likely, and they're more likely to think 'Oh, cool, a friendly colleague', then s'all good. I don't know which one people are likely to think here, but back where I come from it used to be the former.

 

All I'll share is that, if you feel passionate about one segment of your major, or even run across something else incidentally that keeps you up all night because you feel driven to consume every last iota of it, all the gender stuff and friend stuff will fade away.

 

Well, see, that's the thing. I'm not as passionate about it as some people in my major are. There are people who literally make it their hobby - when they're not doing school-related stuff, they're coding projects of their own, attending hackercons.. I don't. I enjoy it, but I enjoy enjoying a variety of OTHER things in my spare time.

 

Yes, there will perhaps be gender barriers along the path and, yes, there may be similar in the dynamics of making friends, but wanting to walk the path will outweigh those concerns. You have a healthy and loving partner to walk by your side. That's a real bonus.

 

Thanks

 

Of course, I'm speaking from the other end of the path, looking back upon it, and work in a field where practically no women exist and have always wondered why that is, since the pay is really good and technology has taken most of the dangers away. Heck, my mom did it back during the war because all the men were in the military and they needed weapons of war built. That proved women could do the work. Loving it is another matter, of course.

 

I always did wonder why there were so few women in CS. Unlike manual work, there is no physical advantage for men here, and it isn't even 'dirty' work. I could totally understand why women might avoid your field (construction/plumbing?) though.

[carhill]

I own a machine shop. Technology does most of the work now. Women break a sweat more and stress their bodies more at the gym than in what I do for a living. My mom built airplanes, literally, during the war. I still have her tools and use them in field work. Yeah, computer sciences is less 'manual' but, interestingly, there is a lot of CS in manufacturing and production controls and processes. I was an EE major in college when I 'fell in love' with making things on the shop floor and never looked back. If you feel it, balls to bones, nothing gets in the way.

 

No limits.

[JesseJames]

They probably know you have a bf or can sense it. The whole reason they pursue this field is to make money and be in a relationship like you, or at least afford nice-looking prostitutes or surrogates if necessary. You're most likely a total strain on their brains. They aren't in the hair styling career are they? No. Do they want to pitch tents sitting around their peers because some taken asian newbie chick keeps coming around and being friendly? No. Are you going to hook them up with something? Probably not. Are dudes at a major disadvantage in the pursuit of greater life prospects? Yes. Could they do without you? Probably so. Are you going to have a hard time networking or succeeding in all this? It all depends upon the approval of others, unless you go on your own... so good luck.

[Feelin Frisky]

Hi Elswyth. I don't have any particular insight but I'd just like to say I have long thought your screen name to be very classy-sounding and lovely for a woman. I don't know why compsci would be any more "male dominated" than anything else, but maybe it is where you study and/or live that there happens to be a tradition. Just like anything else you have to play the cards you're dealt (or the ones you deal yourself in your choices) and as long as you keep focused on tasks and excel and don't get distracted or put yourself down, you'll be a valuable asset to any business. Hold your head high and kick some male ass (figuratively speaking).

[Sidsid]

I used to be a welder in a facility of 83 guys and myself. At first they didn't much like me lol they thought I was a novelty but once they realized I was there because I could do the job, then I started making friends. Not all of them were friendly, but lots were. I think they felt threatened by a woman. I now work in sales b2b welding and industrial sales. It is an even more male dominated area, all of my coworkers as well as customers are guys. I don't feel left out or different and everyone is friendly and makes small talk but I don't really have what I would call friends there, just acquaintances. My customers love having a girl call on them!

[zengirl]

Really?? I thought being a (good-looking) woman in sales was actually a huge advantage. Like, employers know that good-looking women are likely to attract male customers a lot and sell very well.

 

At certain levels, yes, but it can hinder you from going beyond that immediate sales level and into executive positions in many companies still (this is getting better). It can also hinder you if you're NOT good-looking (more important for women in those industries than men) or if you lose your looks, as we all do/will. In advertising, I often wished I could be a man for just the workday. Only time I have. I suppose if I were the type of woman to lean more heavily on sex or feminine appeal, it may have been easier (the guys certainly insist I had an easier time because I was pretty, but I felt the stress of that assertion every day in advertising, and it was a primary reason I got burnt out). Also depends on the industry and product, of course.

 

Oh, I agree. I'm just not used to it. I guess I'm afraid of people thinking, 'Geez, why does she chat up guys ALL the time? Is she that desperate/ugly/etc?' If that isn't likely, and they're more likely to think 'Oh, cool, a friendly colleague', then s'all good. I don't know which one people are likely to think here, but back where I come from it used to be the former.

 

The latter seems more likely to me with NZ culture. I'm not sure what country you're from, but I understand your fears with Asian culture being what it is.

 

Well, see, that's the thing. I'm not as passionate about it as some people in my major are. There are people who literally make it their hobby - when they're not doing school-related stuff, they're coding projects of their own, attending hackercons.. I don't. I enjoy it, but I enjoy enjoying a variety of OTHER things in my spare time.

 

I think that's fine. My stepfather is a programmer, and you'll never catch him coding in his off-time (hubby is also a programmer, and he does). He'd rather be biking, swimming, building stuff, etc.

 

Unlike manual work, there is no physical advantage for men here, and it isn't even 'dirty' work. I could totally understand why women might avoid your field (construction/plumbing?) though.

 

It's the way the sciences are taught in school (it's getting better---there will probably be more female CS grads in the next 20 years). Language arts is geared towards females, and the sciences/maths are geared towards males. It's a real issue in education that is being slowly addressed. Both genders are disadvantaged by it.

[Els]

Hi Elswyth. I don't have any particular insight but I'd just like to say I have long thought your screen name to be very classy-sounding and lovely for a woman. I don't know why compsci would be any more "male dominated" than anything else, but maybe it is where you study and/or live that there happens to be a tradition. Just like anything else you have to play the cards you're dealt (or the ones you deal yourself in your choices) and as long as you keep focused on tasks and excel and don't get distracted or put yourself down, you'll be a valuable asset to any business. Hold your head high and kick some male ass (figuratively speaking).

Aww, thanks, FF, that's really sweet of you. I'm not sure it's just where I study, most people I know agree that there are few women involved in CS. Is it different where you live?

 

No limits.

 

Awesome motivation, carhill, thanks.

 

I used to be a welder in a facility of 83 guys and myself. At first they didn't much like me lol they thought I was a novelty but once they realized I was there because I could do the job, then I started making friends. Not all of them were friendly, but lots were. I think they felt threatened by a woman. I now work in sales b2b welding and industrial sales. It is an even more male dominated area, all of my coworkers as well as customers are guys. I don't feel left out or different and everyone is friendly and makes small talk but I don't really have what I would call friends there, just acquaintances. My customers love having a girl call on them!

 

Great to hear it worked out for you. The bolded part is what scares me though. Feels like additional pressure to 'prove yourself'.

 

At certain levels, yes, but it can hinder you from going beyond that immediate sales level and into executive positions in many companies still (this is getting better). It can also hinder you if you're NOT good-looking (more important for women in those industries than men) or if you lose your looks, as we all do/will. In advertising, I often wished I could be a man for just the workday. Only time I have. I suppose if I were the type of woman to lean more heavily on sex or feminine appeal, it may have been easier (the guys certainly insist I had an easier time because I was pretty, but I felt the stress of that assertion every day in advertising, and it was a primary reason I got burnt out). Also depends on the industry and product, of course.

 

Interesting points, ZG. I agree that executive positions are still male-dominated, in part because I think people are still reluctant to accept women as leaders. If you are incredibly talented, you can pull it off, but it's still harder, I guess.

 

It's the way the sciences are taught in school (it's getting better---there will probably be more female CS grads in the next 20 years). Language arts is geared towards females, and the sciences/maths are geared towards males. It's a real issue in education that is being slowly addressed. Both genders are disadvantaged by it.

 

How do you feel the sciences/maths are geared towards males in school?

[zengirl]

How do you feel the sciences/maths are geared towards males in school?

 

Well, now at least we check for sexism, but even as recent as when I was a kid, all the textbooks had male children doing experiments---if there were girls in the books, they were only watching. In my graduate classes, we did reviews of textbooks throughout the decades, and this was true almost up until the new millennium!

 

But I think the main issues are more varied than overt sexism. Part of it is that we teach reading/writing in ways that are more likely to be auditory and girls are more likely to be good auditory learners, whereas math and science are taught in visual ways, whereas boys are more likely to be good visual learners. BTW: There is no good reason to teach these things to a subset of learners. It's not that hard to vary the strategies to include all students and their interests in all subjects.

 

Examples in math and science books are more likely to appeal to young boys. Pictures in math and science books are more likely to appeal to young boys. A lot of it is subtly done and not intentional at this point. Also, teachers are more likely to prioritize math/sciences for young boys and reading/writing for young girls. Boys handwriting for decades was much below women, and boys were not EXPECTED to have good handwriting, even in school, whereas girls were. There are a lot of problems even the slightest of stereotypes continue for generations.

 

It's a lot more even, and I think when you see kids for whom the majority of schooling was post-2000, you'll see some different trends. Even now, more and more women are entering the sciences in college.

 

It's cultural too -- more parents, more teachers, more speakers to the class who are in the maths and sciences are going to be male. My friend is a (female) mechanical engineer, and she tries to talk to science classes to provide a good example.

[Teal]

I'm in the same boat as you, but college has actually been an improvement for me.

 

Growing up I tried to imitate my father (programmer) and brothers (nerds and techies, now programmer and engineer) instead of the women in my family, and often wound up not fitting in with either the girls or the boys for it. I was lucky to meet a group of girls who understood me all the same in middle school, and a variety of individual male friends who didn't have their heads up their asses, but it wasn't until college when more and more people really started acting like adults that I truly started to feel like I fit in.

 

My two cents? Men and women tend to socialize differently, and I'm going to throw out a wild guess and say that I think you're more geared towards socializing with women so being surrounded by nothing but guys feels unusual. I felt the same way back when I was a culinary student, except that my classes (unsure about the field as a whole) were mostly women and not even the tomboyish type I was used to.

 

While I don't have any advice for adjusting off the top of my head, because I've never been very well acquainted with the female side of things to compare, the good news is that it's most definitely workable. Some of your classmates might simply be intimidated or still awkward around women in general. If you're into your field then you belong there as much as anyone else - stick with it! - this is just a bump in the road.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Teal

[Feelin Frisky]

Aww, thanks, FF, that's really sweet of you. I'm not sure it's just where I study, most people I know agree that there are few women involved in CS. Is it different where you live?...

 

I don't know because I haven't been in school since 2000 and it was a trade school for CAD. I don't imagine computer science to be particularly male. My brother has his degree in it and I asked him and he said there were lots of girls in his classes for that (through the 80's). You just mentioned that you're Asian (but not where) and I know that in Korea for instance, there is almost insane competition in fields involving math skills. I don't know if you are trying to compete in that kind of setting but I can see there potentially being some gender favoritism in some countries and cultures. Just shooting the breeze.

[Els]

Well, now at least we check for sexism, but even as recent as when I was a kid, all the textbooks had male children doing experiments---if there were girls in the books, they were only watching. In my graduate classes, we did reviews of textbooks throughout the decades, and this was true almost up until the new millennium!

 

But I think the main issues are more varied than overt sexism. Part of it is that we teach reading/writing in ways that are more likely to be auditory and girls are more likely to be good auditory learners, whereas math and science are taught in visual ways, whereas boys are more likely to be good visual learners. BTW: There is no good reason to teach these things to a subset of learners. It's not that hard to vary the strategies to include all students and their interests in all subjects.

 

Examples in math and science books are more likely to appeal to young boys. Pictures in math and science books are more likely to appeal to young boys. A lot of it is subtly done and not intentional at this point. Also, teachers are more likely to prioritize math/sciences for young boys and reading/writing for young girls. Boys handwriting for decades was much below women, and boys were not EXPECTED to have good handwriting, even in school, whereas girls were. There are a lot of problems even the slightest of stereotypes continue for generations.

 

It's a lot more even, and I think when you see kids for whom the majority of schooling was post-2000, you'll see some different trends. Even now, more and more women are entering the sciences in college.

 

It's cultural too -- more parents, more teachers, more speakers to the class who are in the maths and sciences are going to be male. My friend is a (female) mechanical engineer, and she tries to talk to science classes to provide a good example.

 

Oh, yes, now that you mention it, I HAVE noticed quite a lot of that. I think the segregation by teachers was a little less in my school, as I was in a girls' school all the way up til college. So I guess some of us girls were encouraged to take the 'boys' part', because there were no boys to do it - although the fact that it was even thought about in that manner pretty much proves your point. It does scare me to think that if I had been in a co-ed school, I would not have been encouraged to do things like representing the school in Maths and Science competitions, which contributed hugely to my intellectual development and my fields of interest in the future.

 

 

I'm in the same boat as you, but college has actually been an improvement for me.

 

Growing up I tried to imitate my father (programmer) and brothers (nerds and techies, now programmer and engineer) instead of the women in my family, and often wound up not fitting in with either the girls or the boys for it. I was lucky to meet a group of girls who understood me all the same in middle school, and a variety of individual male friends who didn't have their heads up their asses, but it wasn't until college when more and more people really started acting like adults that I truly started to feel like I fit in.

 

My two cents? Men and women tend to socialize differently, and I'm going to throw out a wild guess and say that I think you're more geared towards socializing with women so being surrounded by nothing but guys feels unusual. I felt the same way back when I was a culinary student, except that my classes (unsure about the field as a whole) were mostly women and not even the tomboyish type I was used to.

 

While I don't have any advice for adjusting off the top of my head, because I've never been very well acquainted with the female side of things to compare, the good news is that it's most definitely workable. Some of your classmates might simply be intimidated or still awkward around women in general. If you're into your field then you belong there as much as anyone else - stick with it! - this is just a bump in the road.

 

Thanks for the encouragement. I was actually quite used to interacting with guys back in my homeland, as I partake in several male-dominated group hobbies. I guess culture is a barrier too.

 

I don't know because I haven't been in school since 2000 and it was a trade school for CAD. I don't imagine computer science to be particularly male. My brother has his degree in it and I asked him and he said there were lots of girls in his classes for that (through the 80's). You just mentioned that you're Asian (but not where) and I know that in Korea for instance, there is almost insane competition in fields involving math skills. I don't know if you are trying to compete in that kind of setting but I can see there potentially being some gender favoritism in some countries and cultures. Just shooting the breeze.

 

Oh, yes, apparently there were more women in computing when it started! There were quite a few articles written on it, and it's quite an interesting story. Apparently the first programmer was a woman, as was the person who discovered the first 'bug'. But statistics claim that eventually female interest declined, and they postulated a few reasons for it. My classes are almost entirely male, though it varies by class. Some have about 10% females, which is the largest percentage I've seen so far.