Pursuing a male-dominated career field as a woman

January 24, 2012

Some of you may recall the decision that I made, some time in the past, to pursue compsci. It was a huge change of direction for me, and I was worried that I would not succeed or end up not liking it, for various reasons. Well, so far, it has turned out mostly okay. Sure, there were difficult times, a few parts of it that I did not like, and a huge challenge in completing the equivalent of a degree in a year without previous experience or formal knowledge in the field.

But I did it. And I'm damned proud of myself. I did so much better than I expected, pulling better-than-average grades despite the abovementioned circumstances. I find the material interesting for the most part, too.

There is another issue that concerns me now, though, that has bugged me throughout the year. I'd always known that this field was male-dominated, but believed that it would not be a disadvantage to me, as there was no real biological disadvantage here (as opposed to careers involving physical strength like the army, construction, etc). There was something I had not considered before, though: the social disadvantage.

After a year, with graduation closing in, I have no friends from my class. I've been to university before, in my homeland, in a mixed-gender class, and had no problems having friends there. Here... a few acquaintances, but nothing more. I'm really not sure why. It could be that I'm an Asian girl in a place full of white boys and they don't feel comfortable talking to me. It could be that compsci guys just don't socialize much. It could be that.. geez, I don't know. I'm sticking with the first hypothesis.

I'm worried, because I've read about women dropping out of compsci because they feel out of place. I really DO feel out of place. I've read about women losing out in research or the office because they don't fit in so easily, and thus tend to be isolated (and we know how important networking is in both places).

I suppose the only thing I can do is to be really good at what I do - but even that comes with its own set of challenges. I'm not THAT good, or THAT passionate, about this. I'm better than average, but not like the sort of heroine you see in movies that is greatly respected and idolized because she's head and shoulders above the guys. I'm not the sort of person who spends all my spare time trying to write my own version of Linux, geez. I'm not as big a geek as some of the other guys around me are.

Anyone have anything encouraging to say?

January 24, 2012

I also work in a male dominated field (engineering), so I can visualize what you're talking about. However, assuming you're qualified, professional, and flexible, I seriously doubt that you'll have a problem finding a job.

The culture of each company is unique, and in my opinion, extremely important in determining how much you'll enjoy working. Instead of worrying about how you'll fit in, use your interviews and job search to try and find the companies that will best fit your personality and needs. Many companies would love to hire female professional employees. It improves the culture in that it brings unique perspectives and experiences to the company, as well as improves the outward image the company portrays.

Also keep in mind that if your first job will very likely not be your only/last opportunity.

January 24, 2012

Thank you, tman. I agree that I don't think I'll be disadvantaged because of my gender in the hiring process. I just think I'll be disadvantaged in the social fitting-in process, in that I'll be rather lonely at work, and won't form networks as well. Myself being shy really does not help with that.

January 24, 2012

I suppose the only thing I can do is to be really good at what I do - but even that comes with its own set of challenges. I'm not THAT good, or THAT passionate, about this. I'm better than average, but not like the sort of heroine you see in movies that is greatly respected and idolized because she's head and shoulders above the guys. I'm not the sort of person who spends all my spare time trying to write my own version of Linux, geez. I'm not as big a geek as some of the other guys around me are.

Also, trying to develop a passion for something that you're simply not passionate about is a waste of your time, in my opinion. I could be wrong (after all, I'm not a computer scientist), but I doubt that having some sort of extreme passion for your work is a job requirement, unless you're trying to work for Google or something. I certainly don't have a passion for civil engineering. It's just my job. It's part of who I am, but it's not the whole picture. I will never, ever work for a company who requires their employees to live and breath their job.

January 24, 2012

you're probably the closest some of those guys have been to a woman besides their mother since... ever. lol

January 24, 2012

Thank you, tman. I agree that I don't think I'll be disadvantaged because of my gender in the hiring process. I just think I'll be disadvantaged in the social fitting-in process, in that I'll be rather lonely at work, and won't form networks as well. Myself being shy really does not help with that.

Hahaha, don't take this the wrong way Elswyth, but I doubt that you're going to have to do much of the social outreach.

A female (especially since you're not a shovel-faced whale) in a building full of dudes (even geek dudes) is bound to attract attention. More likely, you'll have the misfortune of having to deal with creepy co-workers, strange vibes, etc. It's an unfortunate reality of the workplace. But you'll also likely have many opportunities to form professional relationships, friendships, and network. I think you'll end up having to play gate-keeper more than you're thinking.

Again, I could be way off base, but I'm just speaking from my own observations thus far.

January 24, 2012

Also, trying to develop a passion for something that you're simply not passionate about is a waste of your time, in my opinion. I could be wrong (after all, I'm not a computer scientist), but I doubt that having some sort of extreme passion for your work is a job requirement, unless you're trying to work for Google or something. I certainly don't have a passion for civil engineering. It's just my job. It's part of who I am, but it's not the whole picture. I will never, ever work for a company who requires their employees to live and breath their job.

Thanks. That is reassuring. I do like this field, but like you, it isn't my life.

you're probably the closest some of those guys have been to a woman besides their mother since... ever. lol

Come now, that's just mean.

Hahaha, don't take this the wrong way Elswyth, but I doubt that you're going to have to do much of the social outreach.

A female (especially since you're not a shovel-faced whale) in a building full of dudes (even geek dudes) is bound to attract attention. More likely, you'll have the misfortune of having to deal with creepy co-workers, strange vibes, etc. It's an unfortunate reality of the workplace. But you'll also likely have many opportunities to form professional relationships, friendships, and network. I think you'll end up having to play gate-keeper more than you're thinking.

Again, I could be way off base, but I'm just speaking from my own observations thus far.

I dunno, tman, I did mention that very few guys in my class even try to initiate conversation with me. They look reaaaaalllly awkward when they talk to me. They talk amongst themselves more, although not a great deal either. They just seem very quiet in general, based on what I see. :/ Maybe it'll be better once I go into grad research and we'll have teams and more opportunity to interact.

January 24, 2012

These guys likely have no real friends in the class either. It's the type of career that doesn't exactly attract the social butterfly.

By the way every career is male-dominated!

January 24, 2012

I don't need social butterflies, but even introverts can have friends. I used to have friends back in the mixed-gender class I took back in my homeland (different culture), and I'm an introvert.

January 24, 2012

I don't need social butterflies, but even introverts can have friends. I used to have friends back in the mixed-gender class I took back in my homeland (different culture), and I'm an introvert.

I'm both an introvert and extrovert... lately I've been introverted. Need to get more extroverted again.

Don't worry about your non problem. You've got this.

January 24, 2012

I guess. I just feel kinda lonely in my field. Sure, I have the bf and other friends outside, but it'd be nice to have friends in the workplace and class.

January 24, 2012

I guess. I just feel kinda lonely in my field. Sure, I have the bf and other friends outside, but it'd be nice to have friends in the workplace and class.

Hahaha yes you sound like a woman olright.

January 24, 2012

I guess. I just feel kinda lonely in my field. Sure, I have the bf and other friends outside, but it'd be nice to have friends in the workplace and class.

Then you will have to make the effort. Plan a happy hour after class and invite everybody who wants to come. Or invite a few people out for coffee. Start a study group. Do something, don't just wait for them to "become" friendly.

In the workplace, as soon as you've pulled a late night working on a project with your team, you will become part of the team. Bring snacks.

January 24, 2012

Thanks for the advice, NJ. I would feel a bit weird doing the happy hour invites etc, especially since I'm the only girl in the class. But you have a good point about projects and teams, hopefully that will be the case in the near future.

January 27, 2012

I am also a woman working in a male dominated career (engineering)! Life in the work place is anything but easy and I've had to prove myself over and over again and even then I don't get respect from some guys. A lot of guys will argue that it is "easier" for a female to get a job in this type of industry as many companies have policies which state they need to hire X% of females in technical roles.

I understand that you feel lonely on your course but you don't have to be close friends to form a study group, help each other out or to have their contact details. It's the same in the workplace, I rarely socialise with the men I work with unless it's a work outing. I would consider them my work friends rather than my home friends if that makes sense.

Not having friends doesn't mean that you can not create networks either. I believe that to create a network you have to get on with people on a professional level not so much a friend/personal level.

I'm not sure how you act but you need to be aware that you are in a male dominated environment and I've found that guys will generally act differently when a female is around. A lot of guys are worried about how they act or things they say as there are quite a few females who will report them in the work place. I don't know how guys in comp science act, but where I work they can be disgusting and very offensive. My only advice would be to adapt to the way that the guys act so they they will see you as "one of the guys". That doesn't mean you need to act like a guy, but I have found that it helps if the guys aren't afraid to act like themselves around you.

Not sure if this is very encouraging! But it's just my personal experience so far..

January 31, 2012

I am also a woman working in a male dominated career (engineering)! Life in the work place is anything but easy and I've had to prove myself over and over again and even then I don't get respect from some guys. A lot of guys will argue that it is "easier" for a female to get a job in this type of industry as many companies have policies which state they need to hire X% of females in technical roles.

I understand that you feel lonely on your course but you don't have to be close friends to form a study group, help each other out or to have their contact details. It's the same in the workplace, I rarely socialise with the men I work with unless it's a work outing. I would consider them my work friends rather than my home friends if that makes sense.

Not having friends doesn't mean that you can not create networks either. I believe that to create a network you have to get on with people on a professional level not so much a friend/personal level.

I'm not sure how you act but you need to be aware that you are in a male dominated environment and I've found that guys will generally act differently when a female is around. A lot of guys are worried about how they act or things they say as there are quite a few females who will report them in the work place. I don't know how guys in comp science act, but where I work they can be disgusting and very offensive. My only advice would be to adapt to the way that the guys act so they they will see you as "one of the guys". That doesn't mean you need to act like a guy, but I have found that it helps if the guys aren't afraid to act like themselves around you.

Not sure if this is very encouraging! But it's just my personal experience so far..

Thanks. I have, honestly, no problem accepting the way guys act or acting as 'one of the guys'. I used to have an all-male group of friends back in college whom I did semi-competitive cybergaming with. There was some issue with the annoying male egos that kept flaring up in competition, but other than that it was great. I did not mind the swearing and such.

I think the issue with this group is that they are not giving me the chance to get in close enough that they can see that I'm fine with being one of them. Honestly, I think they judge me by my cover: ie 1) I'm Asian, so presumably I operate on a different wavelength and am not comfortable speaking English , and 2) I'm a girl and they don't know that I can fit in. Also, I was lucky in my previous college group that there were 1 or 2 very outgoing guys that got to know me and introduced me to the rest.

Just curious, do you find yourself lacking in friends if you don't socialize with your work group? Most people I know have friends predominantly from their career, simply because those are the people you spend the most time with so it's easier. All of my bf's friends are in his workplace. I know some people have ex high school friends and such, but we are immigrants so this isn't an option for us.

February 2, 2012

It's strange that they aren't giving you a chance. Usually at least a couple of them would give you a chance and befriend you. Have you tried starting up a conversation with one of them and introducing yourself? I know it's not easy as it can be quite intimidating being the only girl, but sometimes you need to muster up the courage to make the first move to befriend them. Do you have any group work on your course? I've found group work to be a good way to befriend people and start a conversation.

You are lucky you have your boyfriend and friends around though, at least you are not alone!

I'll be honest, I don't have many friends where I currently live. I grew up and went to University quite far away from where I live now and most of my friends didn't move away from those cities. When I first moved here, I was the only girl within my department and all the guys were around 10 years older than me, married and with kids. I just found that we were at different stages in life to hang out outside of work if that makes sense. I would still consider some of them friends, just not the friends I would hang out with at the weekend but purely because we are at different stages in life. Their weekends are family oriented and I respect that. A couple of younger guys have started recently who are similar in age to me, but they just have a different attitude to life than I do and thus we don't enjoy doing similar things in the evenings/weekends. The few girls in other departments I find to be quite catty most the time, and the few I get on with are married with families. I work for a large company, but the site I work at is very small so not the ideal place to make friends when you are fussy about who your friends are! I found it much easier when I was studying to make friends.. I miss studying sometimes!

February 3, 2012

It's strange that they aren't giving you a chance. Usually at least a couple of them would give you a chance and befriend you. Have you tried starting up a conversation with one of them and introducing yourself? I know it's not easy as it can be quite intimidating being the only girl, but sometimes you need to muster up the courage to make the first move to befriend them. Do you have any group work on your course? I've found group work to be a good way to befriend people and start a conversation.

Making the first move.. I guess I haven't, not overtly. I've done polite convo like "Hey, mind if I sit here?", etc, but nothing more. I guess I just find it weird and uncomfortable to do so. Probably they feel the same.

A couple of them did befriend me, but one is working full-time and has a family, and another lives far away, so we don't really hang out outside of class. You're right about group projects. The courses I have taken have not had any. Also, most of them 'grew up' with each other since Year 1, whereas I came in in the 3rd year, so probably some difficulty there too.

You are lucky you have your boyfriend and friends around though, at least you are not alone!

Yep, I'd be very sad otherwise.

I'll be honest, I don't have many friends where I currently live. I grew up and went to University quite far away from where I live now and most of my friends didn't move away from those cities. When I first moved here, I was the only girl within my department and all the guys were around 10 years older than me, married and with kids. I just found that we were at different stages in life to hang out outside of work if that makes sense. I would still consider some of them friends, just not the friends I would hang out with at the weekend but purely because we are at different stages in life. Their weekends are family oriented and I respect that. A couple of younger guys have started recently who are similar in age to me, but they just have a different attitude to life than I do and thus we don't enjoy doing similar things in the evenings/weekends. The few girls in other departments I find to be quite catty most the time, and the few I get on with are married with families. I work for a large company, but the site I work at is very small so not the ideal place to make friends when you are fussy about who your friends are! I found it much easier when I was studying to make friends.. I miss studying sometimes!

Ohh, I'm sorry to hear that. I am quite fussy too, I rarely befriend people whom I don't have anything in common with because I just can't fathom spending the evening drinking or bar-hopping just to fit in. And apparently the western college culture is aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllll about drinking. I tried to attend a LAN gaming party but it appeared to be 90% drinking and 10% gaming so I hightailed it out of there. Oh, well.

February 5, 2012

Also, most of them 'grew up' with each other since Year 1, whereas I came in in the 3rd year, so probably some difficulty there too.

This explains a lot!! I think this is where the difficulty comes from. They have probably already formed their groups of friends.. Could the few that have befriended you perhaps introduce/invite you along to get to know some of the others better? Have you tried joining any clubs or anything? That's usually a good way to make friends and if you happen to be in the same club as some guys from your class then it would be a good conversation starter!

Ohh, I'm sorry to hear that. I am quite fussy too, I rarely befriend people whom I don't have anything in common with because I just can't fathom spending the evening drinking or bar-hopping just to fit in. And apparently the western college culture is aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllll about drinking. I tried to attend a LAN gaming party but it appeared to be 90% drinking and 10% gaming so I hightailed it out of there. Oh, well.

I'm from and grew up in the western part of the world and I don't understand it either... There are a few people out there who don't enjoy getting drunk every weekend until they pass out, unfortunately they are just hard to find!

February 24, 2012

Well, I found a bit of a breakthrough... Apparently the key is to talk to them online first! They seem a lot more chatty online.

February 24, 2012

Well, I found a bit of a breakthrough... Apparently the key is to talk to them online first! They seem a lot more chatty online.

That made me laugh. Glad it works

February 24, 2012

Hey Elwsyth. I wish I had seen this thread before!

I am a woman in a male-dominated field as well (IT). Not the kind of fluffy conceptual IT that attracts some women to the field, but rather I specialize in infrastructure (hardware, system administration) which is ALL men.

My experience is that most guys in these fields are just socially awkward. They would LOVE to talk to you, but they don't know how to. In college, I felt awkward at first, just like you, but when I realized what was really going on, I became queen of Geekdom I started up conversations with people sitting around me and soon, I had a lot of friends! Guys loved to have a girl around who knew technology.

Recently, I went into an interview where the recruiter raised his eyebrows when he saw me for the first time. He brought in his boss to talk to me, even. By the end of the hour-long interview, he told me "Arabella, I like you. It's rare to see a woman in IT, and much less one with such presence."

Morale of the story: Don't try to be one of the guys. Be you! Geeks are awesome people! They are just introverted by nature. That's why you don't see them chatting in large groups outside of class. You will have to do most of the work in the beginning, and become more extroverted, but once you do and they feel comfortable knowing you like to talk to people, they will flock to you

Best of luck!

Arabella

February 25, 2012

That made me laugh. Glad it works

:laugh::laugh:

Hey Elwsyth. I wish I had seen this thread before!

I am a woman in a male-dominated field as well (IT). Not the kind of fluffy conceptual IT that attracts some women to the field, but rather I specialize in infrastructure (hardware, system administration) which is ALL men.

My experience is that most guys in these fields are just socially awkward. They would LOVE to talk to you, but they don't know how to. In college, I felt awkward at first, just like you, but when I realized what was really going on, I became queen of Geekdom I started up conversations with people sitting around me and soon, I had a lot of friends! Guys loved to have a girl around who knew technology.

Recently, I went into an interview where the recruiter raised his eyebrows when he saw me for the first time. He brought in his boss to talk to me, even. By the end of the hour-long interview, he told me "Arabella, I like you. It's rare to see a woman in IT, and much less one with such presence."

Morale of the story: Don't try to be one of the guys. Be you! Geeks are awesome people! They are just introverted by nature. That's why you don't see them chatting in large groups outside of class. You will have to do most of the work in the beginning, and become more extroverted, but once you do and they feel comfortable knowing you like to talk to people, they will flock to you

Best of luck!

Arabella

Hey, theoretical CS isn't fluffy!!! :

Glad you settled into your field of choice so easily. The problem is that I, too, am introverted, and it's incredibly difficult to make the first move to talk to people. Especially since I come from a culture where women generally sit quietly and guys come and talk to them, even on a platonic level. I guess that was why it was easier for me to talk to the geeks back in my old place (I am currently in a R with one ), because as introverted as they were, they were still the ones approaching me. I do agree that geeks are awesome

Still, I managed to connect with a few classmates online and will meet them in class next week, so we'll see how it goes!

March 4, 2012

Well, I found a bit of a breakthrough... Apparently the key is to talk to them online first! They seem a lot more chatty online.

Glad you found a way! Sounds like they were just shy

March 5, 2012

Unlike some oldschool male dominated fields (sales, business, etc) where there are "good old boys," I think women in tech actually have a HUGE advantage. Hubby works in a tech field with very few women, and his company will hire women just for the different perspective (some of the customers are women, and they do need some women on staff), sometimes even if they have less experience or programming skills than men because they have so few women who apply. It depends on what field of CS you work in whether or not that will be the case, but it happens a lot. And plenty of hiring managers in CS just don't care, as long as you're good.

As far as making friends, I don't think in platonic situations, you can expect men to come to you. Just be friendly. Friendships should be relatively gender neutral, after all. But I really think you'll be fine in terms of getting a job, if you're in a Western country and have appropriate papers to work there. Not sure about your home country though.

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Pursuing a male-dominated career field as a woman

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