musemaj11 Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 How many women who believe that its the job of a man to be a gentleman and treats a woman like a 'lady' also believe that its the job of a woman to be a good woman and wait on a man hand and foot? Im asking this because currently Im living in a third world eastern country where women expect men to be 'MAN' while at the same time they also expect themselves to be 'WOMAN' who waits on her man hand and foot, handles the child rearing, and sees her man as her leader (in some subcultures the women even kiss their men's hands when meeting and leaving them). After seeing all that I began to ask myself, "What do F do American women do that make them think they deserve to demand a man to be a gentleman?!?"
SteveC80 Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 I treat people the way they treat me and how they deserve to be treated Having a vagina doesnt entitle one to special treatment as a human being
carhill Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) IMO, 'waiting on' can have many connotations, and on both sides of the 'gentleman/lady' debate. Yesterday, as the shop was slow, I was catching up on yard work and laundry. A customer stopped by and, jokingly, mentioned 'you'll make a good housewife someday'. Indeed, and I'm equally skilled at shortening power takeoff drivelines and stress-relief welding, which is what he was after at that particular moment. To me, if I feel 'waited on' by a woman, that's satisfying and greatly appreciated, if only because it's been so rare. Regardless, I'll continue being a gentleman (and 'housewife' and 'machinist') because those pursuits give me life satisfaction as well. I'll just be a bit pickier about who I share them with. So, to answer your question, IMO, a man who is a gentleman should always treat a lady like a gentleman, if he is to 'treat' her in any manner. There is no natural law which says every female must be 'treated'. One can choose one's associations. Enjoy your stay. I'm sure it's enlightening. Edited January 20, 2012 by carhill fat fingers
veggirl Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Oh geez. I expect back what I give. I am not one of the gals who expects a guy to pay for me and stuff, though. What is it that you think women expect and don't return? I'm assuming it's a monetary thing? And how many of these threads do we need? I'm sure there's another on this main page! You're just wording your "question" slightly differently. My bf and I treat each other pretty much the same. We both do things for each other. Yeah if I expected him to make $$ while I stayed home, I would make sure I did the cleaning and cooking, etc. Obviously. OP, do you honestly meet in your day to day life women like the hypothetical "American women" you post incessantly about? I'm serious. Have you had a terrible experience where you gave and gave and got nothing in return?
FitChick Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Just treat each other with respect and reciprocate when someone does something nice for you. Sometimes you have to teach them.
darkmoon Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 men can beat up women who are perfectly ladylike if being a gentleman is a favour, god help us
Woggle Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Women should expect to get back what they give. The same goes for men.
FitChick Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Im asking this because currently Im living in a third world eastern country Why don't you stay there and marry a local? Don't think she won't change if you bring her back to the US and adapts to our customs.
blueskyday Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Yes, people adjust to their opportunities. Those third world women might well enjoy their freedom here and change what their behavior. Sometimes it feels I can't win. I graduated college and got married young. I was a stay home mom/wife for many years. I cooked for my (ex) husband, kept a beautiful house, took care of the children. I loved it, and took pride in it! He was a good husband in many ways. We were equal partners. After my divorce, I continued to treat my boyfriends like this. Most loved it, got a few marriage proposals, and felt like it was nice to treat each other well. I am a great cook, so I will cook for the man I love. I enjoy making a nice home. Even now, single, I like it. My last boyfriend, however, HATED it. He said he didn't want me to be his slave. I never looked at it that way. I certainly didn't pick up after him or anything. I made him dinner, gave him a massage once in a while when his back hurt. Basic stuff. I'm simply skilled in domestic things (not mechnical so much!) When he fixed my dishwasher, I made him dinner. He came over every morning and I made him coffee on his way to work. It made me happy to take care of him in this way. We would sit and chat together. It seemed reciprocal, and felt easy and natural. For all the dinners out, I made him dinner in equally. I loved the cozy feeling of making and eating dinner in. He wasn't used to that all when he was married before, and didn't like a woman "waiting on him." I also worked and was a grad student, so I had a full life besides. I was simply treating him well. So, darned if you do, darned if you don't.
ivyvine Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 I was raised in Central America so I understand to a certain extent what you are talking about when you say the women wait hand and foot on their men. At home, the woman always dishes up the food for her man and she always serves him first and herself last. She always saves the best piece of meat or biggest piece of dessert for the husband. Men would not be caught dead doing laundry, etc. etc. Even being raised in that culture, in my LTR I did not take on this attitude. We both felt that everything should be equally divided. Was it? No, but it rarely is. Not really a humongous deal. Now going on to the gentleman part. I don't expect my date to open the car door for me, or pay for dinner every time we go out, etc. However, if I had to pick between two men who are the exact same with the exception that one always opens all doors for me, pulls out the chair, walks on the street side of the sidewalk and is an overall gentleman - there's no doubt who I would pick. It definitely gives men a leg up. I would not take this to be a monetary discussion. When men behave like gentlemen and treat a woman like a lady, it should really be because they actually are gentlemen. I have gone on dates with men who were gentlemen and it just seemed to come naturally to them - and that is the best kind. I certainly don't expect them to pay for everything, I always offer to pay, especially if he has not allowed me to pay for anything on the last couple of dates. And when they have let me pay, it didn't make them any less of a gentlemen.
blueskyday Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Yes, but in most third world countries, it is not a choice for women to act any other way but in a subserviant manner. Feminism is about choice, and we definitely have that privilege here in the USA. It is a much different intent here if a woman chooses to make her man dinner or do something nice for him. In other countries, it is male privilege that DEMANDS she does. Her life is ruled by the mercy of men. A happy woman makes for a happy man. All that matters is that both parties feel free. I do think kindess is important. Kindess is showing each other respect, good manners, and a general sense of caring about their needs and feelings at the same level as yours, and sometimes before yours.
Feelsgoodman Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Sometimes it feels I can't win. I graduated college and got married young. I was a stay home mom/wife for many years. I cooked for my (ex) husband, kept a beautiful house, took care of the children. I loved it, and took pride in it! He was a good husband in many ways. We were equal partners. Out of curiosity, why did you get divorced?
blueskyday Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Oh, and, Muse, if a man ever expected me to kiss his hand when he arrived or left my presence, I'm pretty sure I would tell him to kiss my a$$.
blueskyday Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 We got divorced because I was too young when we married. He was 10 years older, and controlling. I may have been traditional in many ways, but I was independent as well. We didn't mesh well in areas like decision making. I'm more collaborative than he is. I'm also more adventurous and a happy go lucky person. We were opposites in personality. That's probably a long answer! We are good friends now, apart. We did quite well though, in many areas of our marriage. He treated me like a partner and respected my contribution as such. Something I really appreciated.
Feelsgoodman Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Feminism is about choice, and we definitely have that privilege here in the USA. Choice is fine. The problem is with women who choose to be un-ladylike in their conduct yet still expect the man to be a gentleman. Personally, I'd have no problem being a perfect gentleman...but only with a woman who is a perfect lady. And there is no way in hell an American feminist could fit that shoe. It is a much different intent here if a woman chooses to make her man dinner or do something nice for him. In other countries, it is male privilege that DEMANDS she does. Her life is ruled by the mercy of men. The same should apply to female privileges. In eastern countries, it's okay for women to expect men to pay for them on dates, open doors, buy them flowers and chocolates and all that jazz. American women, on the other hand, should not feel entitled to any of that. This is the thing that pisses me off the most about the modern dating scene. I don't mind a relationship where both parties play traditional gender roles. I also have nothing against modern relationships, where the two are equal partners. The problem is with women who want to have their cake and eat it too. They want all the benefits of equality without losing any of their traditional female privileges. Sorry ladies...I mean women, you can't have it both way. How many of you would want to date a man who expected you to do 100% of the household chores AND cover 50% of the household expenses on top of that? A modern day "feminist lady" is the female version of that man.
Feelsgoodman Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 We got divorced because I was too young when we married. He was 10 years older, and controlling. I may have been traditional in many ways, but I was independent as well. We didn't mesh well in areas like decision making. I'm more collaborative than he is. I'm also more adventurous and a happy go lucky person. We were opposites in personality. You are not a traditional lady then A traditional lady would be expected to submit to the will of her husband.
FitChick Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 How many of you would want to date a man who expected you to do 100% of the household chores AND cover 50% of the household expenses on top of that? There are plenty of couples like this today.
veggirl Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Serving your partner or guest their food before serving yourself is common courtesy. It's a nice thing to do. Muse, you gonna keep a scorecard if you ever get a woman? Tick... tick... tick, oh s.it I did 5 things for her today, she only did 4 for me. B..ch!!! I can't even imagine you doing one nice thing for a woman. Do you think you would be able to just...oh, I don't know, selflessly WITHOUT EXPECTING SOMETHING IN RETURN, do something kind for a woman? Just BECAUSE? And yeah, lots of men do expect a woman to do the chores, in addition to working 40 hrs a week. My dad used to come home from work and straight into his man cave. My mom came home from work and cleaned and cooked. Muse, what says you about that? Is my dad completely evil? (and my mom made more money than him! no s.it!)
donnamaybe Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 A man should always be a "gentleman," but when he finds himself involved with a woman who has a princess complex he should run - RUN!
soserious1 Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Sorry ladies...I mean women, you can't have it both way. How many of you would want to date a man who expected you to do 100% of the household chores AND cover 50% of the household expenses on top of that? A modern day "feminist lady" is the female version of that man. I was married to a guy who expected me to do more than 50% of the chores while also paying 100% of the bills. It was expected that i would bring my paycheck home and place it next to his plate at dinner. Now I live my life as a slut, it's a lot better lifestyle than being a faithful,mealy mouthed little wife ever was, lol, so you can take the "gentlemen and lady" crap and toss it in the garbage as far as I'm concerned,
Citizen Erased Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 A real lady would have servants paid for by their husband. So, once my husband sorts out my lack of lackeys, I'll get right around to that hand and foot thing.
Feelsgoodman Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 There are plenty of couples like this today. Yes, there are couples like that, just like there are couples where the guy is the breadwinner and the housemaid while the wife does f*ck all. The point is that no woman actually wants the arrangement described in my previous post (though some end up in it due to life circumstances) and it is certainly not the societal expectation. Likewise, a man should not be expected treat a woman as both a lady and his equal. In fact, the two are incompatible with each other. Either you get to be a lady or a man's equal. Not both.
Feelsgoodman Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 A real lady would have servants paid for by their husband. So, once my husband sorts out my lack of lackeys, I'll get right around to that hand and foot thing. A real lady comes packaged with a very substantial dowry, courtesy of her wealthy parents Once your husband gets around to cashing the cheque, I'm sure he'll sort out the lackey situation.
Citizen Erased Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 A real lady comes packaged with a very substantial dowry, courtesy of her wealthy parents Once your husband gets around to cashing the cheque, I'm sure he'll sort out the lackey situation. Not true. A lot of matches are between those with a higher social standing (myself) but low parental funds, and the lower social standing (hubby) but riches to make it ok to society that the upper class person would deign to lower themselves to a mere Mr instead of a Lord or higher.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 How I treat people isn't contingent on how they treat me. That doesn't mean I act like a doormat either but I am not going to ever say, "well I will only treat him this way if he treats me that way." You're going to be hard pressed getting anywhere in your relationships with that attitude.
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