Elizabeth Southerns Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Insults? Or reality checks? "Brickbat" was the term you used. brick·bat/ˈbrikˌbat/ Noun: A piece of brick, typically when used as a weapon. A remark or comment that is highly critical and typically insulting.
Elizabeth Southerns Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Celebrating ill-gotten gains demonstrates a lack of class and humility; even on an OW forum IMO. According to an online dictionary: ill-gotten - definition of ill-gotten by the Free Online Dictionary ... Obtained in an evil manner or by dishonest means: ill-gotten gains. ill-gotten. adj. obtained dishonestly or illegally (esp in the phrase ill-gotten gains) ... It's not illegal to win the heart of another. Nor is it dishonest. Sure, some MMs may practice some dishonesty toward their BS, but unless the OW is in some way beholden to the BS through some pre-existing relationship with the BS, the OW is typically not dishonest. Evil? Only if the OW subscribes to the moral code which considers winning the heart of another to be a violation. What a strange way of viewing a R! As some "thing" that is "gained" through means foul or fair! I far prefer to view it as the result of two people's choosing to be together, and overcoming whatever obstacles hinder that outcome.
Elizabeth Southerns Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 LOL! That's some logic! An affair is inherently dishonest. Otherwise, it would be out in the open, thus, not an affair. Some people choose not to know.
woinlove Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Some people choose not to know. I don't know how often that happens as the MM/MW posting here have typically tried to hide their affairs from their spouses and the BS posting here often have to work to uncover the existence of their spouses' A. But, in any case, it does not apply here, since Cabin has described how determined the MM is to hide the affair from his BW as well as from everyone else and how he wants this all hidden long enough so that the two of them can reemerge as a "new couple" at some later point to their families and children. Sorry, I can't remember of the children know the AP in some other context at this point or not as there have been a couple similar cases here, of the plan to reemerge to family and children later and I may be mixing them up. I do recall how determined the MM was not to have his R with Cabin exposed, though, and I recall his and Cabin's duplicity at a dinner with the BS, so there definitely has been wilful and extensive deception and betrayal in this particular case.
donnamaybe Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I recall his and Cabin's duplicity at a dinner with the BS, so there definitely has been wilful and extensive deception and betrayal in this particular case. I recall that as well. Insult at people falling in love? No. Insult at perhaps how things were handled? Maybe that's why some people, if they did so, insulted the situation.
bentnotbroken Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 LOL! That's some logic! An affair is inherently dishonest. Otherwise, it would be out in the open, thus, not an affair. Don't you love it?
Angelina527 Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 I recall his and Cabin's duplicity at a dinner with the BS, so there definitely has been wilful and extensive deception and betrayal in this particular case. That behavior is beyond cruel and heartless...completely unacceptable.
Angelina527 Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Originally Posted by Heather1 I don't see AP leaving for each other much on this board, but I do see it in real life all the time. My h was freshly separated when I met him & all I got were statistics & told by everyone I had no chance. Even he told me he never wanted to re-marry or ever have kids. That was 23 yrs & 2 kids ago. My husband did leave for me. Then he did to me what he did to his first wife...sure, we're still together and working things out, but it's been a very rough road to travel. The saying is completely true...if you marry a man who cheats on his wife, you'll be married to a man who cheats on his wife.
MissBee Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Originally Posted by Heather1 I don't see AP leaving for each other much on this board, but I do see it in real life all the time. My h was freshly separated when I met him & all I got were statistics & told by everyone I had no chance. Even he told me he never wanted to re-marry or ever have kids. That was 23 yrs & 2 kids ago. My husband did leave for me. Then he did to me what he did to his first wife...sure, we're still together and working things out, but it's been a very rough road to travel. The saying is completely true...if you marry a man who cheats on his wife, you'll be married to a man who cheats on his wife. Hi Angelina, When you and your husband got married, did you feel like you needed to do extra work (couple's counseling for example) based on the fact that it started as an A....or was it only after he did it to you too that you realized it may be a problem outside of whoever is his wife at the time? Thanks.
Angelina527 Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Hi Angelina, When you and your husband got married, did you feel like you needed to do extra work (couple's counseling for example) based on the fact that it started as an A....or was it only after he did it to you too that you realized it may be a problem outside of whoever is his wife at the time? Thanks. Hi MissBee! That's a really great question! Unfortunately, I felt like most OW do about his ex wife. I thought, "there must be something wrong at home or he wouldn't be seeking me out." and "she must not be fulfilling his needs or he wouldn't NEED me." Also, "if she would have sex once in awhile or pay attention to him"..."if she would not let herself go"... The "if she's" never stopped. That was my justification. At any rate, our relationship was "special" and "unique." We were soulmates, etc. He would NEVER do that to me, I thought, because I wouldn't make the same mistakes that his wife did...so to answer your question, no, I didn't feel the need for any sort of counseling. See, I trusted him. Our relationship was different. Yeah right. Then reality hit me right in the face and I realized that the problem wasn't with HER at all. It wasn't with me, either. The problem was within him and there was nothing that she or I could have done to change things. We're now two years out from our d-day and healing nicely, BUT we had intense therapy after d-day and we continue to go monthly. I'll be sorry for the things I thought about his wife until the day i die.
MissBee Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 Hi MissBee! That's a really great question! Unfortunately, I felt like most OW do about his ex wife. I thought, "there must be something wrong at home or he wouldn't be seeking me out." and "she must not be fulfilling his needs or he wouldn't NEED me." Also, "if she would have sex once in awhile or pay attention to him"..."if she would not let herself go"... The "if she's" never stopped. That was my justification. At any rate, our relationship was "special" and "unique." We were soulmates, etc. He would NEVER do that to me, I thought, because I wouldn't make the same mistakes that his wife did...so to answer your question, no, I didn't feel the need for any sort of counseling. See, I trusted him. Our relationship was different. Yeah right. Then reality hit me right in the face and I realized that the problem wasn't with HER at all. It wasn't with me, either. The problem was within him and there was nothing that she or I could have done to change things. We're now two years out from our d-day and healing nicely, BUT we had intense therapy after d-day and we continue to go monthly. I'll be sorry for the things I thought about his wife until the day i die. Thanks for sharing! I think it is a natural (but obviously unhelpful) response to believe in our exceptionalism, in terms of these kinds of situations.But I suppose it is less palatable to our conscience and happiness to consider the reality of the situation...so it's a catch-22...you can only seek counseling etc if you admit what they have done is not because of anyone but themselves.....yet admitting this takes away from the unique connection and also makes you feel less noble yourself. I do hope though that your story serves to shed light on some of the real issues and challenges OW planning lives with cheaters to at least try to give themselves the best chance and avoid disappointment by seeing it as an internal issue they have now taken on by being with this person....and addressing it versus riding off into the sunset believing a divorce is a clean slate for them, when it isn't.
Author Cabin Posted January 21, 2012 Author Posted January 21, 2012 Cabin, if you are happy then I am happy for you! And it does sound like things are working out for you, or at least, heading in that directions. Congratulations!. Thank you for this support Spark. But you are an educated woman obviously, and if you and your AP actually do forge a future relationship that endures, you do realize that you are the minority, yes? That you and he represent that very rare exit affair? Somewhere around three percent and it is characterized by a plan to exit the marriage and ACTIONS to make that happen? You are both taking ACTION to dissolve your marriages and are hopeful to forge a future together. Yes, I do see how it is the actions APs take that determine the sincerity of their words and promises. Some of the actions my AP took to "show" me his intentions: -giving me access to his work/personal email if I wanted (I have the passcode but have never felt the need to check it... I just know there's nothing for me to find there) -when I was with him, if his family members called, he made a point of putting the phone on speaker so that I could hear his siblings talking about his impending divorce so that I would know it was openly being discussed in the family, therefore "real" -he did move into the bedroom in the basement and he did discontinue sex with his wife long ago... (I know many fOWs find this laughable)... and then he made sure that I was privy to his correspondence with the mediator they saw that confirmed both of those facts -he has shared with me all documented legal correspondence -he has shown me statements separating all finances -I have seen the separation agreements outlining the custodial arrangements, etc. But mostly, the action that has shown me that he is sincere about shaping a life with me, is the way he uses his time. He spends all of his free time -- after his children of course -- with me. If he was planning to stay in his M, he would have to actually spend time with his W, but he doesn't and he hasn't, for most of our R. You MUST see how your relationship differs from the majority posted here: empty promises, lots of future talk, but NO ACTION to make it happen? Tons of excuses. let's have lots of sex, but NO ACTION? I do see the difference and I must say to women who find themselves in an A: decide what you want, and if it's truly him you want, make it clear he has to make decisions and act on them. Some people advised me on here that those decisions and actions needed to happen immediately, quickly. That wasn't what happened for us, so I don't think it needs to be that decisions are rash and immediate. Instead, what happened for us was a decision was made about a year ago to pursue a legitimate relationship, and we have slowly been progressing to that through deliberate action. I will agree with some advice I got on here: if a man truly loves a woman, he will move mountains to be with her. So I could have told my AP a year ago: make a choice now or I'm gone. And he would have chosen me, but it would have been a firestorm with tremendous ripple effects for everyone, including the children and x-spouses. Instead, I have been able to slowly transition my child into a single-parent home, maintain a good relationship with her father. For my AP, he has been able to set up his children better by giving them time to adjust to the idea of the D, set them up financially by contributing to their education accounts, and set up his STBXW better by paying down a lot of their joint debt so that when he leaves, she can afford to stay in their home comfortably. Good luck to the both of you. Sincerely, thank you. I know mine is not a love story that is considered worthy of celebrating because of the way it evolved. Of course I wish this was not the way that we met, but I wouldn't undo it. He and I have found something marvelous together, a total synchronicity of spirit, mind, and body, and it means the world to me. I can't believe I didn't know *this* existed before.
beenburned Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 Angelina, Thank you for sharing your story. I think that this happens a lot more than we hear about. Most people that have marriages that start as an EMA, usually try to hide it when their own marriage is touched by infidelity. Cabin, I wish you the best as you both start a life together. Blending families is no easy task, especially when the marriage started as an EMA.(usually the Xspouses/ extended families are bitter)
Author Cabin Posted January 21, 2012 Author Posted January 21, 2012 ... some of the real issues and challenges OW planning lives with cheaters... This line caught my eye because I think we do have to differentiate between categorical "cheaters" and people who are unfaithful once. For that matter, I think OWs (even if they are single) can still be described as "cheaters". I just think we need to be careful when tossing that word, "cheater", around... it means different things to different people and in different situations. For example, I have never been unfaithful (not even to a boyfriend when I was just dating) prior to my A, and I will never *ever* again be unfaithful. I cheated once. Some will brand me a "cheater" for life. Others cheat routinely throughout their lives and relationships, but are defined by the same term.
beenburned Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 cabin, But whatabout your STBH's history? Please read Angelina's posts about what happened to her.
Angelina527 Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 Cabin, my husband cheated ONCE...with me. You sound so much like I did. We were strong, committed, and in love. It happens. Start your relationship with some therapy. Your rose colored glasses are too dark to see (as were mine) that generally if someone has the capability to cheat once, they are very capable of doing so again. You can't possibly know that it won't happen, so my suggestion is to definitely get couples therapy BEFORE. All I can say is this: after my experience and being on the betrayed side of the coin, I will NEVER be in a cheating situation again, because it will always come back to bite you in one way or another.
MissBee Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) This line caught my eye because I think we do have to differentiate between categorical "cheaters" and people who are unfaithful once. For that matter, I think OWs (even if they are single) can still be described as "cheaters". I just think we need to be careful when tossing that word, "cheater", around... it means different things to different people and in different situations. For example, I have never been unfaithful (not even to a boyfriend when I was just dating) prior to my A, and I will never *ever* again be unfaithful. I cheated once. Some will brand me a "cheater" for life. Others cheat routinely throughout their lives and relationships, but are defined by the same term. Hi Cabin, I didn't mean it as a defining term for all eternity....but I do think it is useful to call a spade a spade. If I am cheating on my SO today....in this moment I am a cheater. If I have been cheating on him the past 6 months...I am a cheater. I think when you consider it in that way....it becomes easier to address it and learn from it versus when it is already excused as a "one time thing". Every habit started with one time. I am not using it as a label, but as a tool to confront the behavior and work through it instead of downplay it. Angelina's perception is all too common. I too experienced it. You love/care for someone, so you assume negative behavior is an exception to the rule...and you simply move on from it as not a big deal, as it is not their habit. I think it often backfires. Being an OW was not my usual style....but it happened...I aided and abetted cheating and I had to learn WHY and call a spade a spade and grow. If I had simply said "Oh well...it was once...I am a good person....it doesn't matter". I would not have grown as much as I have (oh and believe me...it took years for me to tell myself the truth.) It's not about being a good person...we all mess up and that doesn't render us monsters. I think a prudent person addresses his/her indiscretions head on versus immediately downplaying/minimizing/justifying. I think it can only be useful for anyone in a relationship that started as an A to ask questions and say WE cheated...we lied...we deceived...WHY? How can this behavior be avoided in the future? The problem, like in Angelina's case and so many others, is the automatic dismissal of that bad behavior and assuming nothing needs to be addressed and you simply move on. I do hope you consider it, from the experience of someone who is where you hope to be...just as a measure to safeguard your heart/relationship. Edited January 22, 2012 by MissBee
sp2007 Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 Yes, I do see how it is the actions APs take that determine the sincerity of their words and promises. Some of the actions my AP took to "show" me his intentions: -giving me access to his work/personal email if I wanted (I have the passcode but have never felt the need to check it... I just know there's nothing for me to find there) -when I was with him, if his family members called, he made a point of putting the phone on speaker so that I could hear his siblings talking about his impending divorce so that I would know it was openly being discussed in the family, therefore "real" -he did move into the bedroom in the basement and he did discontinue sex with his wife long ago... (I know many fOWs find this laughable)... and then he made sure that I was privy to his correspondence with the mediator they saw that confirmed both of those facts -he has shared with me all documented legal correspondence -he has shown me statements separating all finances -I have seen the separation agreements outlining the custodial arrangements, etc. But mostly, the action that has shown me that he is sincere about shaping a life with me, is the way he uses his time. He spends all of his free time -- after his children of course -- with me. If he was planning to stay in his M, he would have to actually spend time with his W, but he doesn't and he hasn't, for most of our R. I saw all this too and even more -- I was given keys to his apartment, met his family members, etc. Three years after he left his wife, they still haven't divorced, despite living separately. I just found his secret dating profile online two weeks ago (where he incidentally lists himself as divorced, not separated). So... I'm not saying this to be negative -- I truly do hope it works out for you the way you wish -- but you should be cautious. Make sure you are leaving your marriage for you -- not for him because there is no guarantee when all is said and done that it will work out in the end. I don't believe "once a cheater, always a cheater" but when you are in a relationship where secrets and lies are an acceptable element, the lines become fuzzy over time and it can be difficult to put things right in the end, despite everyone's best intentions. I hope this makes sense.
MissBee Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 Yes, I do see how it is the actions APs take that determine the sincerity of their words and promises. Some of the actions my AP took to "show" me his intentions: -giving me access to his work/personal email if I wanted (I have the passcode but have never felt the need to check it... I just know there's nothing for me to find there) -when I was with him, if his family members called, he made a point of putting the phone on speaker so that I could hear his siblings talking about his impending divorce so that I would know it was openly being discussed in the family, therefore "real" -he did move into the bedroom in the basement and he did discontinue sex with his wife long ago... (I know many fOWs find this laughable)... and then he made sure that I was privy to his correspondence with the mediator they saw that confirmed both of those facts -he has shared with me all documented legal correspondence -he has shown me statements separating all finances -I have seen the separation agreements outlining the custodial arrangements, etc. But mostly, the action that has shown me that he is sincere about shaping a life with me, is the way he uses his time. He spends all of his free time -- after his children of course -- with me. If he was planning to stay in his M, he would have to actually spend time with his W, but he doesn't and he hasn't, for most of our R. I saw all this too and even more -- I was given keys to his apartment, met his family members, etc. Three years after he left his wife, they still haven't divorced, despite living separately. I just found his secret dating profile online two weeks ago (where he incidentally lists himself as divorced, not separated). So... I'm not saying this to be negative -- I truly do hope it works out for you the way you wish -- but you should be cautious. Make sure you are leaving your marriage for you -- not for him because there is no guarantee when all is said and done that it will work out in the end. I don't believe "once a cheater, always a cheater" but when you are in a relationship where secrets and lies are an acceptable element, the lines become fuzzy over time and it can be difficult to put things right in the end, despite everyone's best intentions. I hope this makes sense. Thanks for this! It encapsulates my point. If one had to lie, deceive, cheat, sneak around and/or condone another doing this...it seems only normal to me, that some "clean up" has to happen to address the A before moving on to an in-the-open relationship. Many do not do this type of debriefing though and simply believe you just need to move on, move-in together, marry etc and all will be well because the A was only happenstance. One doesn't need to be a habitual cheater to address this, in fact, I assume if such behavior is foreign to what you'd normally do yourself or accept...you'd want to explore it and clean the slate so you don't repeat it.
Gentlegirl Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 I cannot believe what I just read on your post...WHAAAAAAAt T F?????? Still I shouldn't be that surprised xMM was back on a dating website shorlty after we broke up. How awful, Cheers, GG
beenburned Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Miss Bee, I like to use the terms: FWH (former wayward husband) FWW (former wayward wife) FBH (former betrayed husband) FBW (former betrayed wife) FOW (former other woman) FOM (former other man) As you stated, someone is only a cheater when they are actively cheating. Once you are no longer involved in that activity, then I think you deserve a different label.
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