ThaWholigan Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 My brother and I were talking yesterday about dating and relationships. (He'd just returned from a booty call set up by crazy cousin, which is how we got to the topic). He talked about a girl we both knew who was the local.....well, you know. One of his friends has recently entered a relationship with her, despite my brother's protests about it. My brother has had sex with her years ago, but has since expressed regret at doing so. Now his friend is with her, he is disappointed at the desperation his friend has showed in clinging to this girl. He explicitly showed me that he could still have sex with her, I knew this the moment she called him when I was with him and basically asked him to come over, which he declined (he was quite derogatory in fact, not something I would have done). It's concerning because I have seen it in a lot of guys recently, we used to call them "pussy beggars". They basically get sprung the moment they get a smidgen of attention and then cling to said girl immediately, which is deeply unattractive behavior, and then get worse the more the girl pulls away. The only reason the "friend zone" is such a big phenomenon where I live these days is because of these guys. I wouldn't apply this to most men, but there are some that do this and they are growing in number. Girls treat them like crap and then they complain loudly for anyone to hear. This is not the internet anymore, they are doing it in real life, and infuriating the guys who don't behave like this. I obviously know the solution to the desperate problem (it may not solve the dating problem, although it should, but it will stop the desperation), but I just wanted to make this thread because it's been on my mind. Ladies, how frequent are your encounters with such men? What are your suggestions for them? Men, do you know guys like this? How have you tried to speak to them about it? Do you feel as though you are the same? (if so, no offense ) Link to post Share on other sites
somedude81 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Something is seriously wrong with modern dating. Link to post Share on other sites
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I obviously know the solution to the desperate problem (it may not solve the dating problem, although it should, but it will stop the desperation), but I just wanted to make this thread because it's been on my mind. Ladies, how frequent are your encounters with such men? What are your suggestions for them? Men, do you know guys like this? How have you tried to speak to them about it? Do you feel as though you are the same? (if so, no offense ) Two major rules of dating: Insecure men who act confident will always take advantage of insecure women. Insecure men who act insecure will always be taken advantage of by insecure women. I'm just getting so damn apathetic about all these things. People are not going to change. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Something is seriously wrong with modern dating. Not that much IMO. Still pretty bad though. I think these guys should not get into relationships though, simply because they are too desperate. They would even be better off seeing an escort who empathizes (and even that I would not recommend). They do need to take time out and rectify why they are that way, and then make sure that they move on from that.... Link to post Share on other sites
eleanorhurting Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It happens to women too. Women can get desperate too, specially after having been rejected. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 It happens to women too. Women can get desperate too, specially after having been rejected. Of course, I have certainly seen that too. Sometimes desperate for relationships, sometimes desperate for sex. Link to post Share on other sites
aj22one Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I've actually been wondering a bit about this. Obviously having been born in the 1980s I never lived in previous eras of Western history. But, it seems as though this issue of desperate and clingy men, and online dating, etc. is a totally new phenomenon. I was kinda like this in my teen years but quickly grew out of it and started dating and meeting women. I mean I have a friend who I guess is so hard up for dates that he's going off to another country to meet a woman he met online (she's visited him over here once as well). It's one thing to start talking to somebody and fall in love or whatever, but totally different when you're like him (27, hardly going on dates, virgin, etc.). It just make me wonder how in the world has it gotten this bad? Like what happened? Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I've actually been wondering a bit about this. Obviously having been born in the 1980s I never lived in previous eras of Western history. But, it seems as though this issue of desperate and clingy men, and online dating, etc. is a totally new phenomenon. I was kinda like this in my teen years but quickly grew out of it and started dating and meeting women. I mean I have a friend who I guess is so hard up for dates that he's going off to another country to meet a woman he met online (she's visited him over here once as well). It's one thing to start talking to somebody and fall in love or whatever, but totally different when you're like him (27, hardly going on dates, virgin, etc.). It just make me wonder how in the world has it gotten this bad? Like what happened? Well, my view is a little extreme. The problem is that there has since been something of a sexual revolution and the divide between men who do well with women and men who don't seems to be getting just a little bit wider. The men who don't know how to be attractive are getting left dead in the water for a number of reasons, and they are experiencing a lack of self-esteem as a result. Not only that, but some of them express a distinct lack of personal ambition in their lives and it can be a turn off to some women. As a result, they miss out, and it impacts on their general view towards women. However, what they fail to realise is that their reality is still in their own hands, if they are willing to make the step up and learn the things they need to make their life more fulfilling, whether it's to learn the true mechanics of money, how to expand their current skillset in whatever profession they choose, and how to attract the women they want. The problem is, they either don't believe they can change, or are too complacent to do so, citing women's poor choices and "picky" nature as the problem, when in reality, they could also exercise the same pickyness if they were aware of their own self worth and could command such options to be so. I think these men do themselves a great disservice, and while the dating world may not be fair, one can still at least equip oneself with the tools to be able to function. Just like in any other world they are entering. That's what I do. I might still be a bit of a novice, but I know what I have to do, and I am eager to learn, and will enjoy it. Perhaps it is because I won't allow myself to be down and emotional about it. Guys should stop investing so much of their emotions into their inability to attract, and see it for what it is - a learning curve. If you luck out and find a nice lady, great. If not, keep going. Link to post Share on other sites
aj22one Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Well, my view is a little extreme. The problem is that there has since been something of a sexual revolution and the divide between men who do well with women and men who don't seems to be getting just a little bit wider. The men who don't know how to be attractive are getting left dead in the water for a number of reasons, and they are experiencing a lack of self-esteem as a result. Not only that, but some of them express a distinct lack of personal ambition in their lives and it can be a turn off to some women. As a result, they miss out, and it impacts on their general view towards women. However, what they fail to realise is that their reality is still in their own hands, if they are willing to make the step up and learn the things they need to make their life more fulfilling, whether it's to learn the true mechanics of money, how to expand their current skillset in whatever profession they choose, and how to attract the women they want. The problem is, they either don't believe they can change, or are too complacent to do so, citing women's poor choices and "picky" nature as the problem, when in reality, they could also exercise the same pickyness if they were aware of their own self worth and could command such options to be so. I think these men do themselves a great disservice, and while the dating world may not be fair, one can still at least equip oneself with the tools to be able to function. Just like in any other world they are entering. That's what I do. I might still be a bit of a novice, but I know what I have to do, and I am eager to learn, and will enjoy it. Perhaps it is because I won't allow myself to be down and emotional about it. Guys should stop investing so much of their emotions into their inability to attract, and see it for what it is - a learning curve. If you luck out and find a nice lady, great. If not, keep going. Yeah that sounds about right. My only question is what happened in the last 15 years to cause it? Or I guess, was it always this way and we didn't notice it because we weren't alive then? Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Yeah that sounds about right. My only question is what happened in the last 15 years to cause it? Or I guess, was it always this way and we didn't notice it because we weren't alive then? Well I was born in 88, so I dunno, but I do know that women are a lot more outgoing and forward in their choices over the years. I haven't studied an awful lot about feminism but I would suspect that it has led to women exercising more control over certain areas of their lives, including who they date, and also a greater understanding of their sexuality and maybe a tad more incentive on encouraging it. The most socially and emotionally intelligent men will always fare well in these circumstances, especially if they keep their physical appearance well above standard. My father is in his 50s and still looks in his early 30s, he's always going on about how he could beat me in a race, little does he know that I don't care . I think fathers are important though, because my generation were raised mostly by single mothers, that may be an issue. My mother was one of the few mothers that never cut my father out, despite them not being together, she practically forced a relationship between my father and I. We started to be close when I was 13, and now at 23, my relationship with my father is incredibly strong, as he imparts his off beat and zen-like advice to me. Because he is still fit, intelligent, social, charming and incredibly good with words (typical actor ), I find myself taking after him in many ways. For guys who don't have that, it can be very difficult, and I am lucky to have a relationship with my dad, who is helping me in my path to true manhood. This is why having a mentor can be good. PUA also is an important resource for such guys, because the core of their teachings (surprisingly) is about how to live a more whole and complete life as a man. This is the problem IMO. Men need to be looking towards completion and improvement, and constant growth. And they need to enjoy the journey of growth, like I plan to do. I rambled . Something else I got from my dad, his tangents are legendary; sometimes it's like he's giving a monologue on stage. Bless my father Link to post Share on other sites
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I think these men do themselves a great disservice, and while the dating world may not be fair, one can still at least equip oneself with the tools to be able to function. Just like in any other world they are entering. That's what I do. I might still be a bit of a novice, but I know what I have to do, and I am eager to learn, and will enjoy it. Perhaps it is because I won't allow myself to be down and emotional about it. Guys should stop investing so much of their emotions into their inability to attract, and see it for what it is - a learning curve. If you luck out and find a nice lady, great. If not, keep going. Life itself isn't fair. Attempts to make it fair are often unfair. It isn't fair that there are so many children who can't get healthcare. If we want to make it fair for them then we have to take money from somebody who works hard for it to pay the bill. That isn't fair to them either. Dating works the same way... welcome to life... almost nothing is fair. Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Life itself isn't fair. Attempts to make it fair are often unfair. It isn't fair that there are so many children who can't get healthcare. If we want to make it fair for them then we have to take money from somebody who works hard for it to pay the bill. That isn't fair to them either. Dating works the same way... welcome to life... almost nothing is fair. Indeed. That's why I never put my stock in life being fair, I make my own luck as far as I'm concerned Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ladies, how frequent are your encounters with such men? What are your suggestions for them? I don't know the difference between a man I don't fancy and don't want to date and a man who is desperate AND I don't fancy and don't want to date. Maybe because I'm not an attention seeker I suppose I either only spend time with male friends where attraction isn't an issue (it never comes up) or men with dating potential. If I'm not interested in dating a man I won't have further contact with him so I will never know whether he is desperate overall or not. My suggestion would be not to befriend women but to keep trying to find one who will date them straight away. Hanging around girls who aren't interested can't be good for anyone. Link to post Share on other sites
ascendotum Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well, my view is a little extreme. The problem is that there has since been something of a sexual revolution and the divide between men who do well with women and men who don't seems to be getting just a little bit wider. The men who don't know how to be attractive are getting left dead in the water for a number of reasons, and they are experiencing a lack of self-esteem as a result. I agree with what you say. With girls these days being much more bang up for action and free spirited when it comes to short term relationships & FWBs, its a feast at one end and a famine at the other. In the context of the types of guys you describe, i'd say this is a factor, hard to say to what extent. Are these guys desperate for a gf or just just desperate for snatch? If its the former then the struggle to achieve this should not be as hard as it is to be sexually active + foot loose, to a greater extent than it was for a guy 25 yrs ago looking for a gf, imo. I do think women have higher expectations than say 25 yrs ago, but is there this big floating pool of desperate guys...and are their female counterparts floating from above their league guy to guy??) However, what they fail to realise is that their reality is still in their own hands, if they are willing to make the step up and learn the things they need to make their life more fulfilling, whether it's to learn the true mechanics of money, how to expand their current skillset in whatever profession they choose, and how to attract the women they want. The problem is, they either don't believe they can change, or are too complacent If these desperate guys you are describing are ineloquent deadbeats, then I agree with stepping up. If these guys are happy to have a ladetette for gf, then what are they stepping up to? or if these guys are are desperate to get with an unambitious, reality tv devotee, no skills, average suburban sales clerk girl, then what are they stepping up to? I think these men do themselves a great disservice, and while the dating world may not be fair, one can still at least equip oneself with the tools to be able to function. These desperate guys are going to learn the hard way. Hey, the more there are out there, the better for you & me. I think these guys should not get into relationships though, simply because they are too desperate. Chicken and the Egg Link to post Share on other sites
Author ThaWholigan Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 I don't know the difference between a man I don't fancy and don't want to date and a man who is desperate AND I don't fancy and don't want to date. Maybe because I'm not an attention seeker I suppose I either only spend time with male friends where attraction isn't an issue (it never comes up) or men with dating potential. If I'm not interested in dating a man I won't have further contact with him so I will never know whether he is desperate overall or not. My suggestion would be not to befriend women but to keep trying to find one who will date them straight away. Hanging around girls who aren't interested can't be good for anyone. Agreed. Made that mistake once. Wasn't a big deal until I lost my cool. I just think one must have more fun in their interactions, it's not that difficult. Link to post Share on other sites
somedude81 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 My suggestion would be not to befriend women but to keep trying to find one who will date them straight away. Hanging around girls who aren't interested can't be good for anyone. While it's common sense, it really is hard to accept for some men. I do it because I love being around girls and I'm just lonely. It's a really hard choice between spending time with a girl I like who doesn't feel the same way, or not be around women at all. Link to post Share on other sites
grkBoy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The problem is too many treat dating like a power play...to see who will break down first and take a risk. People are so scared to say they like one another because they're worried about being taken for a ride... ...BUT... ...the moment they say "I like you", they have no backbone to dump that person when they can see they're being taken for a ride. So in the end, everyone wants someone, but are too scared to really chance it. Add to this how many men and women carry unrealistic logic and thus get taken for a ride. Case in point the guy who wines and dines a girl over and over, but she won't sleep with him or even attempt a RL...yet she'll ditch him and go bang some douchebag she's been trying to push into a commitment for years...when he has no intention of committing to anything more than a booty call. I see so many trying to lump the risk on the other person and at the same time unable to stand up for themselves when they see they're in a bad situation. It's no wonder it's all such a mess. Link to post Share on other sites
oldguy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 http://blog.ted.com/2011/08/05/talk-and-survey-are-we-seeing-the-demise-of-guys-philip-zimbardo-on-ted-com/ Link to post Share on other sites
monkey00 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think to each their own. Scenarios like these are usually based off the fact that one person is needier/clingier than the other who is more independent (or less interested in many cases). I've seen this happen to both men and women on opposite ends of the spectrum. As for the whole clingy guy issue, I've seen that to be more prevalent actually than the female version of it. If a guy knows his status and his ability to attract new prospects or has lots of things going on in his life with hobbies, friends, activities, and interests he will likely be less likely to cling. I think a lot of times low self-esteem can come into play in situations like these. And time and time again the people and friends I've encountered who wound up clingy or having a hard time getting over an ex were usually the ones with low self-esteem. Everyone at some point deals with this and fluxuates, probably most often in relationships where one day they'll feel like they're on the top and the other day they may feel like crap because they aren't getting enough affection and attention from their partner. Link to post Share on other sites
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