Japan's "grass eaters" movement

[verhrzn]

Seriously... Japanese guys used to define manly. Crap they were such hardasses they killed themselves for failure.

 

I don't think that culture is completely dead. It's just the western idea of men being total doormats is starting to seep into the female subconscious.

 

'Manly' and 'doormats' are complete cultural constructs. For example, pre WW2, upper class Japanese men used to take male lovers. It was seen as sophisticated and manly (http://www.amazon.com/Cartographies-Desire-Male-Male-Sexuality-Discourse/dp/0520209095.) Compare that to how homosexuality is viewed in the West since about the 1800's, as wussy and limp-wristed and feminine. You can't just photocopy attitudes of one culture and lay them on another and say,' See, it's because of Western women's attitudes that Japanese men can't get laid!"

 

Or take the documentary 'The Great Happiness Space' which takes place in a host bar in Osaka. Look at the guys in the documentary-they dye their hair, they wear expensive designer labels and finger nail polish. They then explain to the camera that part of their charm is 'scolding the girls'.... That Japanese women have a great attraction to a man who will tell her she's being selfish/immature/naughty. It's a Mirror Funland of Western expectations of masculinity.

[dasein]

More American women are the breadwinners now, too.

 

Lots of marriages are still traditional with traditional roles, the topic of this thread involves opting out of TRADITIONAL roles. Lots of men are opting out of traditional marriage in the U.S. due to unfair expense and other reasons, the rest of your post nitpicks or rationalizes around my basic, clear, nearly childproof point.

 

Anyone who estimates broad social trends based either on the mansion on the hill... or the polar opposite impoverished background, is "out of touch." I did neither. You are the one arguing for a poverty based model of wedding expenses, not me.

[Woggle]

Maybe these guys have it right. After almost four decades of 70s style feminism men still don't know what the hell women want and how to make them happy. We try and try but it seems men just can't win no matter what. Now that feminism is starting to creep into Japanese society these guys are not even trying to figure what the hell women want or how to make her happy. Maybe they look at western society and see how utterly futile it is to try and please some women.

[verhrzn]

Maybe these guys have it right. After almost four decades of 70s style feminism men still don't know what the hell women want and how to make them happy. We try and try but it seems men just can't win no matter what. Now that feminism is starting to creep into Japanese society these guys are not even trying to figure what the hell women want or how to make her happy. Maybe they look at western society and see how utterly futile it is to try and please some women.

 

Or they marry down to poorer, foreign women who they can control.

 

Seriously Woggle.... Japanese women are obviously not ultra feminazis with unbelieveably high standards. They adore foreign men, because foreign men, having grown up in a '70s style feminism' culture, make them feel equal and valued.

 

Is listening to women and trying to find equality with them such a horrible thing that the preferable options are a life of monkitude or marrying a woman with whom you can't even communicate or love you?

 

What I especially don't get is you DID succeed. You've stated several times you found a woman who treats you well, and who you don't have any of these problems with. Why are you convinced she's an outliner? Why are you so set against perhaps seeing that the 'feminist culture' actually may have contributed to the happy and equal relationship you enjoy?

[Woggle]

Well if Japanese women don't want to be with men what other options do men have? Also if western men are so great why do western women hate us so much?

 

Japanese women have decided they would rather lives lives without men and the men are leaving them alone so what is the problem? Everybody wins in this scenario.

 

The feminist culture is not responsible for my happy marriage. My feminist mother thinks my wife is a stepford doormat who bows down to men. The feminist culture pretty much destroyed my family growing up. I very much support the dictionary definition of feminism but what it has turned into is something else.

[kaylan]

Dude... you are 3.5 years below the average first marriage age in the U.S. Get back to me when you turn 33 and we will compare what your friends and family of comparable age spent on weddings during the prior 5 years.

Lmao @ you trying to dismiss me because of my age. I love how you think your anecdotal evidence is any better than mine. I know married couples in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and 70s. My being 25 or 35 wouldnt change how much they spent on wedding.

 

Get over yourself, seriously.

Oh I understand now, you're Amish, explains everything. In case you aren't... BS. Once you are engaged, a shift of power dynamic takes place that based on your posts here, you won't even see coming... until it's too late.

Again, I know PLENTY of women, married and single...who care about being loved...not how much was spent on their weddings. So these are girls my age and older. Stop trying to throw all men and women into your little boxed view of the world.

Here's a little test for you. Tell women you are dating that when you meet "the one" that you will be using your grandmother's tiny, cheap but sentimental engagement ring to form the engagement. Despite all notions of good taste and decorum, 3/4 of women (of any social class I have exprienced) will reply, "well you know rings can be reset with more 'modern' stones." Try it out. (btw 3/4 is charitable, more like 85% or 5/6 IME). Can you imagine a creature so venal and self-centered that they would inject -that- kind of comment into your expression of sentimentality and love for your grandmother and family tradition? Apparently not. You will though, you will.

Please show me a study showing me that 75% of all women would disrespect my grandmothers ring.

 

Until you can do that, this is all conjecture. I keep having to tell you I know a bunch of genuine gals who dont care more about money than love, but guys like you will cry online all the time that its not the case.

 

One of my jobs is not to find you studies. The rule of thumb is 2x monthly salary. Many average guys spend a much higher multiple. Here's another hint for you. NEVER EVER take a woman engagement ring shopping. Ask her to identify some styles and patterns she likes, ring type, but NEVER EVER be in a position of looking at engagement rings together. I could explain why, but you would dismiss it as anecdotal, despite it being completely factual.

Without proof it is only anecdotal. Thats all we are debating is personal anecdotes. You cannot tell me I am wrong and you are right without evidence. At the end of the day, youll believe what you want and ill believe what I will based on the world around me.

 

And my world is one with a lot of good girls out there looking for love. Sure some people suck, man or woman, but thats not everyone

 

Oh, don't know what "outlier" means? Maybe I should google you up some studies on it?

I think you misinterpreted my comment. I know what outlier means, but I was stating that you are only labeling my anecdotes as outliers because they dont fall in line with your assertions.

 

Most negative, cry moar online guys do that. They come up with all these stats about how guys are getting screwed and how women are taking over and have it better than us, but have nothing to back it up in the sense of factual numbers. Its as if they pretend the only people who get screwed over in life is men.

 

 

No idea where -you- live or are from, but it's plain you are advocating for an inaccurately low "projects level" of wedding expenses for men in this thread.

Lmao, sure buddy.

 

My best friends dad was a worked as a VP of a local branch office for a major telecoms company. His mother works for the city as a manager for the parks department. They make good coin, but still didnt splurge on their wedding.

 

They are one example and I have several others. All middle class. Your original assertions do not apply to everyone.

 

Get over it

[kaylan]

Whenever someone uses the descriptor "middle/upper middle" class, try to remember it's likely their attempt to summarize the concept "fat part of the bell curve where social classes are concerned," not an opportunity to pull out some Weberian slide rule, especially on a dating board, and have an autistic fit.

Again, let me repeat myself. Your original statements regarding financial expectations fail because

 

"you cannot group the middle class together with the more well off upper middle class.

 

Study some sociological trends and habits. These two groups of people spend very differently. And most of your original assertions regarding money to be spent has not applied to ANY middle class families I know."

[Quiet Storm]

I did neither. You are the one arguing for a poverty based model of wedding expenses, not me.

 

I'm not arguing for a poverty based model. I'm saying that your assumptions, while they may be correct for a small segment of men, don't reflect the reality for most people. The average woman doesn't expect a $10K ring or a $200K wedding. The average engagement ring in 2010 was $5392, and the average wedding was $29K- much lower than the $200K "middle class" wedding you attended.

 

But anyway, back to the posted topic...

[Wolf18]

Seriously... Japanese guys used to define manly. Crap they were such hardasses they killed themselves for failure.

 

I don't think that culture is completely dead. It's just the western idea of men being total doormats is starting to seep into the female subconscious.

 

 

But is it really authentically "western"? Our culture used to define manly as well. The greatest adventurers, warriors and conquerors in world history have emerged from Western civilization.

 

I'm thinking industrialization is what weakens a society. When man stops struggling against the elements, when silk glove narcissistic bourgeoisie and merchant low life class rebel and overthrow the aristocracy of the sword and soul like they did in France during the 18th and 19th centuries, society plummets into spiritual and even physical atrophy. Just a microcosm of this can be seen in how the human foot has devolved.

 

Men seem to care more about haggling over the price of potatoes than they do about their mors triumphalis . A certain section of effeminate men flourish in this type of society, but the great, bold, and creative elements either whither away and perish or begrudginly escape into spectator sports, alcoholism, mountain climbing or some other sanitized, half assed attempt to capture the adventurism of better days.

The crisis of manhood, the film Fight Club captures it perfectly.

[verhrzn]

Well if Japanese women don't want to be with men what other options do men have?

 

Stop treating women like baby-making servants? Take on more family responsibility so women can get back into the work force? Treat women nicer?

 

Also if western men are so great why do western women hate us so much?

1) The majority of Western women do NOT hate Western men. Yes, even the ones who are feminists.

2) Do ya think maybe THAT might be a part of it... that simply by standing up and stating their needs and wants, women risk being labeled man-haters, lesbians, feminazists?

3) I sometimes get very frustrated (read: not hate, frustrated) with men because I feel as if they are not listening. There are always dozens of labels that get slapped onto women to silence them: nag, harpy, feminazi, irrational, overdramatic, 'emotional.' I get called a b*tch simply for stating my opinion.

 

Japanese women love foreign guys because comparably, foreign men are a lot more progressive than Japanese men. But foreign men aren't very progressive when compared to foreign women.

 

Japanese women have decided they would rather lives lives without men and the men are leaving them alone so what is the problem? Everybody wins in this scenario.

 

Well, the collapse of society is probably a 'nobody wins' scenario.

 

Furthermore, this thread began by asking if this could work in a Western world, if it would suddenly 'make women realize what they're missing'.... aka, a passive-aggressive way to force women to give up their standards and bow to what men want, instead of the men becoming more flexible to accommodate women's wants. The answer, as seen in Japan, is "Nope, it would totally not work that way."

[Wolf18]

Stop treating women like baby-making servants? Take on more family responsibility so women can get back into the work force? Treat women nicer? [/Quote]

 

 

In Japan, and most human civilizations, baby making was a female rite of passage. Men also had a rite of passage, it was war and doing other dangerous jobs that cost countless lives during the painful industrialization process and various wars. I think that between choosing to be a Kamikaze pilot in WWII and giving birth in a hospital, most women would choose the latter.

 

You act like women were giving birth and breaking their backs doing house work while men sat up on the porch with their legs up sipping lemonade.

 

It's not about "nice". History isn't about nice vs mean. Human societies evolved based on necessity . Sometimes, to accomplish basic goals and balance, "mean" things have to happen.

 

 

1) The majority of Western women do NOT hate Western men. Yes, even the ones who are feminists.[/Quote]

 

That's what feminists say. But if you were to have gone to occupy wall street at its highest point, like I did, to see how their system of "mass, leaderless, equal democracy" worked, you would've seen how men could only speak or vote after women. Some animals are more equal than others.

 

2) Do ya think maybe THAT might be a part of it... that simply by standing up and stating their needs and wants, women risk being labeled man-haters, lesbians, feminazists? [/Quote]

 

Standing up to what? Accountability? This whole system is made so women will flourish. Society emphasizes "being nice" over excellence, that alone puts men at a disadvantage, we are logical not emotional.

 

3) I sometimes get very frustrated (read: not hate, frustrated) with men because I feel as if they are not listening. There are always dozens of labels that get slapped onto women to silence them: nag, harpy, feminazi, irrational, overdramatic, 'emotional.' I get called a b*tch simply for stating my opinion. [/Quote]

 

That's because your opinions are harpy. The truth > being "nice" at any cost.

 

Well, the collapse of society is probably a 'nobody wins' scenario.

 

Furthermore, this thread began by asking if this could work in a Western world, if it would suddenly 'make women realize what they're missing'.... aka, a passive-aggressive way to force women to give up their standards and bow to what men want, instead of the men becoming more flexible to accommodate women's wants. The answer, as seen in Japan, is "Nope, it would totally not work that way." [/Quote]

 

So you're going to argue that women have nothing to do at all with the male boycott of women in Japan?

 

Men despise the double standards and hypocrisy. To one degree or another, men are still expected to be men by women, even though the matriarchal society is constantly telling men how despicable our natural gender role is. Yet, while men are expected to know how to change a tire and selflessly protect you from danger, women seldom are nurturing or kind like they once were.

[verhrzn]

In Japan, and most human civilizations, baby making was a female rite of passage. Men also had a rite of passage, it was war and doing other dangerous jobs that cost countless lives during the painful industrialization process and various wars. I think that between choosing to be a Kamikaze pilot in WWII and giving birth in a hospital, most women would choose the latter.

 

You act like women were giving birth and breaking their backs doing house work while men sat up on the porch with their legs up sipping lemonade

 

Oh, that's right, I totally forgot that birth is easy and never has any complications up until about the last 60 years (so for the vast majority of human history.)

 

Let's glance at some statistics. In 1900, maternal death rates (where the mother died) resulted in about 1 out of 100 live births per year. So if there are 2,777,000 births a year, as there were in 1910, with a rough morality rate of 1%-2%, that's about a 55540 deaths. (Which was greatly decreased from about 20% in 1849, before they figured out they should wash their hands.)

 

Since we can approximate about 3,000,000 births a year (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html) with 1-2% maternal deaths, that's about 30,000-60,000 deaths a year.

 

Let's compare how many women died in child birth between 1914 and 1918. On the low side, that's about 120,000 deaths total.

 

In World War 1, the total amount of soldiers killed in action from the United States was 117,465. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties) So strictly speaking, an entire war equaled the same amount of deaths as about four years worth of giving birth.

 

Except there aren't wars every year, and wars not always a necessary competent of human survival, whereas birth... kind of necessary. This was also before the creation of birth control, so women either had to be celibate and have their husbands cheat on them (so some other woman would then have a child out of wedlock) or risk that death rate.

 

Additionally, women didn't start "owning" house work until society become industrialized. When the United States was still largely a farming nation, women were out in the fields right next to their husbands, doing the same back-breaking work. The separate spheres of "domestic work" and "professional work" didn't begin evolving until the mid-1800's, and didn't take hold of most of America until the 1930's and onward.

 

Standing up to what? Accountability? This whole system is made so women will flourish. Society emphasizes "being nice" over excellence, that alone puts men at a disadvantage, we are logical not emotional. That's because your opinions are harpy. The truth > being "nice" at any cost.

 

Gee, maybe American women get tired of being stereotyped as being emotional (as opposed to logical) and having harpy opinions. Because men are never emotional, and men are never 'whiny' or nag about things like, hmm, sex, just to continue with the super broad stereotypes. Nope, women's opinions are automatically harpy, and women are automatically emotional and 'nice', not 'logical' and 'excellent' like men.

 

And yet men who hold these opinions can't possibly understand why women aren't wild about them.

[Untouchable_Fire]

But is it really authentically "western"? Our culture used to define manly as well. The greatest adventurers, warriors and conquerors in world history have emerged from Western civilization.

I'm thinking industrialization is what weakens a society. When man stops struggling against the elements, when silk glove narcissistic bourgeoisie and merchant low life class rebel and overthrow the aristocracy of the sword and soul like they did in France during the 18th and 19th centuries, society plummets into spiritual and even physical atrophy. Just a microcosm of this can be seen in how the human foot has devolved.

Men seem to care more about haggling over the price of potatoes than they do about their mors triumphalis . A certain section of effeminate men flourish in this type of society, but the great, bold, and creative elements either whither away and perish or begrudginly escape into spectator sports, alcoholism, mountain climbing or some other sanitized, half assed attempt to capture the adventurism of better days.

The crisis of manhood, the film Fight Club captures it perfectly.

 

Look, the rise of feminism is simply because as a society we are rich weenies. That won't last forever.

 

Women got the vote because of WW1, and jobs because of WW2. Employers have consistently found that women who traditionally have lower skills are willing to work for lower pay.

 

Japanese women love foreign guys because comparably, foreign men are a lot more progressive than Japanese men. But foreign men aren't very progressive when compared to foreign women.

 

Some Japanese women go for foreign men primarily because Japanese men are obsessed the cupie doll looking girls. If you don't have this look Japanese guys won't value you much.

 

At least that is what my friend Sayuri tells me.

[Sugarkane]

Why haven't Japanese men changed to also share the household chores and looking after The children? Why don't they help? It sounds like a far better better deal being a Japanese man. You don't have to juggle career AND child rearing. Only career. And you Also get to have fun with hostesses after work hours. Also spend money on Geishas. Yet women don't have an equilivent of a male geisha to spend time and money on.

[Wolf18]

Why haven't Japanese men changed to also share the household chores and looking after The children? Why don't they help? It sounds like a far better better deal being a Japanese man. You don't have to juggle career AND child rearing. Only career. And you Also get to have fun with hostesses after work hours. Also spend money on Geishas. Yet women don't have an equilivent of a male geisha to spend time and money on.

 

I don't think men are necessarily rebelling against sharing chores and looking after children. Regardless of what the lifetime channel portrays, men dont just sit down and watch football , eating the poor loving housewifes dinner and complaining about her cooking. Men have always done the harder chores around the house like mowing the lawn, fixing things, painting, fixing pipes, etc.

 

Women juggle career and children because they want to.

 

Oh, that's right, I totally forgot that birth is easy and never has any complications up until about the last 60 years (so for the vast majority of human history.)

 

Let's glance at some statistics. In 1900, maternal death rates (where the mother died) resulted in about 1 out of 100 live births per year. So if there are 2,777,000 births a year, as there were in 1910, with a rough morality rate of 1%-2%, that's about a 55540 deaths. (Which was greatly decreased from about 20% in 1849, before they figured out they should wash their hands.)

 

Since we can approximate about 3,000,000 births a year (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html) with 1-2% maternal deaths, that's about 30,000-60,000 deaths a year.

 

Let's compare how many women died in child birth between 1914 and 1918. On the low side, that's about 120,000 deaths total.

 

In World War 1, the total amount of soldiers killed in action from the United States was 117,465. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties) So strictly speaking, an entire war equaled the same amount of deaths as about four years worth of giving birth.

 

Except there aren't wars every year, and wars not always a necessary competent of human survival, whereas birth... kind of necessary. This was also before the creation of birth control, so women either had to be celibate and have their husbands cheat on them (so some other woman would then have a child out of wedlock) or risk that death rate.

 

Additionally, women didn't start "owning" house work until society become industrialized. When the United States was still largely a farming nation, women were out in the fields right next to their husbands, doing the same back-breaking work. The separate spheres of "domestic work" and "professional work" didn't begin evolving until the mid-1800's, and didn't take hold of most of America until the 1930's and onward.

[/Quote]

 

It's true that child bearing was always dangerous. I said child bearing was a dangerous rite of passage for women just like war was a dangerous rite of passage for men.

 

And while I won't take anything away from women who work the land at all (they work hard indeed), men and women generally do different types of farm work. I've lived on a farm before and seldom saw women doing stuff like fixing fences, castrating animals, butchering them, or even herding cattle on horseback out to eat grass.

 

 

Some Japanese women go for foreign men primarily because Japanese men are obsessed the cupie doll looking girls. If you don't have this look Japanese guys won't value you much.

 

[/Quote]

 

This is not true. Japanese women are just as eccentric as the men (from a western point of view). The reason they go for white guys is because they have fallen for our standards of beauty and Asian women are more attractive to the average white male than asian men are to white females.

 

But of course, men get blamed even when women aren't attracted to them.

[Tony]

Please keep things on topic, and keep banter free of quips against one another. This post is close to getting closed- so please keep it clean.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Why haven't Japanese men changed to also share the household chores and looking after The children? Why don't they help? It sounds like a far better better deal being a Japanese man. You don't have to juggle career AND child rearing. Only career. And you Also get to have fun with hostesses after work hours. Also spend money on Geishas. Yet women don't have an equilivent of a male geisha to spend time and money on.

 

Yes, they do have an equivalent of a male geisha.

 

Gender roles exist to divide work and minimize conflict and confusion. If each couple were forced to work it out between themselves there is constant fighting and discord. Things don't work as well or as often. Plus gender roles were developed to play to each genders typical strength.

 

Societies with relaxed gender standards seem to stagnate and begin to die out. It's fairly new... so we don't know just how bad this is going to be.

[ascendotum]

Why haven't Japanese men changed to also share the household chores and looking after The children? Why don't they help? It sounds like a far better better deal being a Japanese man. You don't have to juggle career AND child rearing. Only career. And you Also get to have fun with hostesses after work hours. Also spend money on Geishas. Yet women don't have an equilivent of a male geisha to spend time and money on.

 

Going out to bars after work to entertain clients is great when you are young, but it loses its appeal after a while for many married men, but it is expected of them as good corporate salary men. Some would love it but others would find it a chore at the end of a long day for the 300th time.

'share the household chores' - Maybe they do, or maybe more likely they do more than their previous generations did but not enough for the liking of the women. Someone who has spent some time in Japan (with no gender bias) will know best. I thought part of the reason for the younger generation of men opting out of marriage was because of the experience of their parents. The Japanese economic engine in the 70s + 80s was a supercharged bulldozer but the workers worked hard for it. Gen Y would have seen their father get up early in the morning for the long train commute into the office, put in 10+ hr days, bowing to his seniors, then some having to smooze clients and then the long commute home, dead tired at end of the day, to confront the wife. Contrary to what verhrzn has mentioned I thought many (middle class) housewives wore the pants at home, these days. Don't know for sure how prevalent this was, just going on a couple of articles I have read, one from an expat.

 

If this was the case, many young men would have watched their dads slog it out in the rat race, bowing to bosses, sucking up to clients and coming home pissed + tired, and then possibly pussy whipped at home by their mother, but too tired to offer any resistance. A slave to the corporate world + married life. They have also grown up experiencing about 5 recessions since the 90s.

 

I don’t know why this 'grass eaters' phenomenon is also not happening in Korea + Taiwan. Will it happen in India + China with the next generation if was all simply a case of men's backlash against women having more freedom in their life?

 

I can understand the young guys reluctance to follow in the footsteps of their dads, but I still don’t get why they don’t adopt a 'lets screw around and have fun' philosophy. There's more to it than just, 'we'll show women' I think.

women don't have an equilivent of a male geisha - Yes there is now. There are bars that cater for young professsionsl women to be flirted with by handsome waiters.

Edited January 14, 2012 by ascendotum