updown Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 my experience with my exH sounds like what you're currently going through. started off with the " you should do it this way," or " you should do this instead of that." my faves were that i didn't have the RIGHT hobbies or interests. i wasn't spending my time the RIGHT way. after we moved in together, it got worse. after we got married, it got worse. after we had kids, it got worse. it never got better. it just got worse and worse and worse. i spent over a decade of my life with a man that never once accepted me FOR me. if i wasn't doing it HIS way, it was the WRONG way. even now, divorced and all, he STILL tells me what i'm doing wrong. i would rather be alone than with someone that doesn't accept ME for ME. there was nothing fun about being in a relationship with someone that was putting me down just for being ME. even with the random good moments, the negative was always there. Zengirl: he goes back and forth. My emotions towards him fluctuate according to how much he is criticizing me, how much sex we are having etc. When we have a good run, I'm happy. It never lasts though. Since his parents left, he has been distant. He is physically present but we barely talk and he is less affectionate. In some ways, it would be easier for me if he were to end things.
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 We can't change other people. Trying to change another person is destructive and futile. I do believe that in a good relationship, both people will try to be their better selves for the good of the whole. I hope! A LOT of compromises need to take place for 2 people to successfully share life together. But the compromises need to come from a place of each person wanting, within themselves, to enhance or improve the partnership. BTW, telling someone that their constant criticism of you, or that you really want them to stop leaving their dirty clothes in the middle of the bathroom floor, does NOT constitute trying to change a person.
Emilia Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 BTW, telling someone that their constant criticism of you, or that you really want them to stop leaving their dirty clothes in the middle of the bathroom floor, does NOT constitute trying to change a person. True of course. It's just communication of your irritation that they are not more like you or what you would like them to be.
Author tigressA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Posted January 10, 2012 I think I'm closer to betterdeal's third way. It really depends what we mean by changing---in terms of WHO hubby is, I am 100% totally fine and accepting of him. There are, occasionally, some behaviors or attitudes that bum me out, and I say so. And we talk about it. And we fight about it, maybe, briefly. And we both come out happier. That's how good fights work: they find happy resolutions. Conflict that is left alone to fester seems. . . terrifying to me. But so does conflict that is constantly out there and on-going. It needs to be resolved, but not in terms of creating someone in your own image. tigress: It really depends on what the issues are, and circumstances are, whether change can be expected. I think we can expect our partners to prioritize us more and such as we get deeper into a relationship. And we can expect them to accommodate us on certain things. So, it's hard to say in the broad strokes. I agree that it does depend heavily on what's meant by changing. For example, my BF criticizes my eating habits fairly often (like me not liking salad or fresh fruit or raw vegetables). This shouldn't affect him, as it's not like I eat junk all the time (we eat mostly rice-based dishes with lots of veggies, and meat), and I maintain a healthy weight with little to no effort. I end up feeling guilty every time I want to get some ice cream or cookies from the grocery store, and heaven forbid I suggest pizza for dinner one night because we're feeling too lazy to prepare something. Last time I did that he said I like all the foods that are 'bad' for me. I said, "If that were even remotely true then we'd be eating two different meals every night. And perhaps it would be easier for me to mold myself to your views on eating if you turned them into actions instead of just words. Hard to take you seriously when you talk about how 'bad' something is and you put it in your mouth anyway." There's also the career/education thing. He's got a master's, he earns a good chunk of money; I am a clerical wage worker, but I really like my job. I was never ambitious, never sought a career. But he thinks I made 'bad' choices, and he assumed I would agree with him in that. He thinks I could and should be doing better for myself, and I know I could, but I don't feel the need or desire to. I told him there's no end to 'better'. I am perfectly fine with where I'm at. Again I told him that if he wanted someone more on 'his' level in this regard, he always has the choice to find a new girlfriend. We had a discussion about our opposing viewpoints and he thinks it's his cultural upbringing that makes him so critical with things that, upon reflection, don't really affect him. He said he's working on changing it (Ha! ). It sounds like an excuse, but I can understand it. Here in the U.S. we're all about pleasing ourselves first. Where he comes from, it's more about the collective--pleasing everyone else before yourself.
Emilia Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Where he comes from, it's more about the collective--pleasing everyone else before yourself. He is trying to control who you are as a person. I don't see how that pleases anyone else except himself.
Author tigressA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Posted January 10, 2012 He is trying to control who you are as a person. I don't see how that pleases anyone else except himself. Hah, yeah, I did tell him that--that he's trying to please himself above anything else by trying to change me. He did admit to it, saying he just wanted me to fit in more to his lifestyle. I said, "Well, again, if that's such a big deal to you, find someone else who already fits into your lifestyle." And he never does find anyone else. Who knows what that means. I'm happy. If he isn't, he always has the choice to leave.
Emilia Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Hah, yeah, I did tell him that--that he's trying to please himself above anything else by trying to change me. He did admit to it, saying he just wanted me to fit in more to his lifestyle. I said, "Well, again, if that's such a big deal to you, find someone else who already fits into your lifestyle." And he never does find anyone else. Who knows what that means. I'm happy. If he isn't, he always has the choice to leave. Sure. This is what I found annoying about dating an Indian guy though. He was softly spoken and liberal enough as I said before but at the end of the day it was all about him and his lifestyle. It's cultural, definitely.
xxoo Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I don't know how often this happens.... But I believe that my H was instrumental in me learning to truly accept a person. He's been better at accepting me from the start. It took me a while to recognize that, fully appreciate it, and eventually return it. BUT--we were very young when we got together. I was a teenager. I don't know how realistic it is to hope a person would grow in this way if they have very established relationship habits.
blueskyday Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I have a tough time, too, knowing where the line lies between acceptance and change. I'm a positive, active person so I feel I can change anything (even myself) for the better. What's hard is when you like someone for who they are, you get into a relationship and then they do something that you aren't sure about. Maybe they can't tell their ex-wife to mind her own business when she tries to keep him from introducing you to the kids (that happened.) So, my difficulty is how I interpret that behavior and how much work to put into it. Accept it and live with it? Naw. Tell him how I feel and try to change it? Probably. I'm learning to give it a bit of time after requesting a change to see what happens. BUT, I'm also learning that early on in a relationship it's NOT okay to ask for change. I just see what they do naturally, and let them know what I like and don't like. What I usually see is that people don't change. In my case, the guy was a passive guy who stood up to his wife a few times, but in the end just couldn't do it consistently. I saw compliance, not a real change in heart. That said, if some guy told me it's better to use your finger in the middle of the page when turning it, I would hold up my middle finger for him to see and say, "Like this?" Really, that's crazy. There is control and there is a request for honest change to make the relationship better. I will put up with a lot, but nobody has the right how to tell me to do something that doesn't affect them. A guy once told me he dumped a girl because he didn't like the way she chewed her gum. He said he asked her to change how she did it, and she wouldn't. He couldn't believe she wouldn't do that for him. And she didn't pop it or anything strange. Just chewed it WRONG. Wow. Run, Forrest, run. Edited January 10, 2012 by blueskyday
Emilia Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 ct them. A guy once told me he dumped a girl because he didn't like the way she chewed her gum. He said he asked her to change how she did it, and she wouldn't. He couldn't believe she wouldn't do that for him. And she didn't pop it or anything strange. Just chewed it WRONG. Wow. Run, Forrest, run. Maybe she chewed with her mouth open? I would struggle to date someone who ate/chewed with their mouth open and didn't change. Or spat on the street.
azsinglegal Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Is he trying to get you to quit meowing at him? LOL Are you still with this guy that you said was abusive to you and you were scared of him?
blueskyday Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Oh yes, I see what you mean. In this case, I asked him that same question. No open mouth or anything, he just thought there was a "better way" to chew gum. I yellow flagged his comment in my mind. Later, I put it with the three ex wives calling him an arsehole and his firing of a pregnant employee the day before Christmas. I came up with final assessment that his character was lacking. That's what I mean. Hard to to tell sometimes. We tend to give people and situations a pretty wide berth. We tend to look for the positive possibilities for someone's behavior. That's nice if both sides do that for each other. Except my experience has been that most men in my life haven't done that for me. I once read men tend to break up over temporary situations in the relationships. Women break up over character issues. Not sure if that's true. I've seen it in my own relationships. I'm almost to the point I don't really give out too many excuses for guys anymore. Doing that tends to keep me planted in a not so great situation ultimately.
Emilia Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Hard to to tell sometimes. We tend to give people and situations a pretty wide berth. We tend to look for the positive possibilities for someone's behavior. That's nice if both sides do that for each other. Except my experience has been that most men in my life haven't done that for me. I once read men tend to break up over temporary situations in the relationships. Women break up over character issues. Not sure if that's true. I've seen it in my own relationships. I'm almost to the point I don't really give out too many excuses for guys anymore. Doing that tends to keep me planted in a not so great situation ultimately. Yes it's hard to tell sometimes, that's why being friends with someone doesn't really work in my opinion. You have to date them to see all the issues that come to the surface. A lot of men I know try to work out what's temporary and what's fixable and usually work at a relationship. I sometimes break up with someone over character issues (my last date) the one before that was a mismatch issue with a big age gap so it was more about circumstances (that's much harder). But in terms of tolerances/excuses: you need to know what your boundaries are. I tend to date assertive men because I can't deal with passive ones/mummy's boys. If you know what works for you, it works in the long term better I think.
blueskyday Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I love what you just said, and how you put it. I think I need assertive men, too. With a passive guy, I feel like quite a b#tch because I step in and do the work he should be doing. You are right. It's about boundaries, and knowing what you want and need.
carhill Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Which of these do you identify with more? Do you think one is better than the other? Do you think you could be in a happy relationship with someone who shares the opposite viewpoint? Discuss. Of the two choices offered, historically, it has been the latter, qualified by such acceptance not allowing abrogation of elemental boundaries. Example (not real life experience): A woman I like/love/am with enjoys drinking. I'm a social drinker. Sometimes she drinks to excess. I accept that. I discover she has been driving while drinking. That's an abrogation of an elemental boundary of mine, specifically blatant disregard for the safety of others. I express that and offer suggestions to rectify it (challenge) as well as reaffirmation of my love and care (support). She has a choice, whether to alter a specific behavior or not, relevant to that boundary. If she chooses drinking and driving, then we have an irreconcilable incompatibility at that point. I would not continue in such a circumstance, even if I loved the person.
FitChick Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Zengirl: he goes back and forth. My emotions towards him fluctuate according to how much he is criticizing me, how much sex we are having etc. When we have a good run, I'm happy. It never lasts though. Since his parents left, he has been distant. He is physically present but we barely talk and he is less affectionate. In some ways, it would be easier for me if he were to end things. Like a lot of men, he wants you to leave him so he won't feel guilty being the bad guy. Either go for couples counseling or find someone better.
FitChick Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I agree with those who essentially said change isn't black and white. I have a friend who dated a guy who was unattractive. As he became more invested in her, she began asking him to make small changes -- see a dentist to get his teeth cleaned, wearing contact lenses instead of glasses, taking him shopping for better clothes, taking him to her hairdresser, teaching him table manners. He seemed quite happy to do it and became much more attractive as a result, which pleased them both. They eventually got married. I've made little changes for the men in my life if I saw no good reason not to and if the changes made me a better person or look better. I am big on self improvement though.
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I'm almost entirely B, but the exception is when the person I'm with has a behavior that's making things significantly difficult for her or for me, and when that's the case, I try to get them to change the behavior. I try to appreciate it when they're trying to correct my vices as well. A simple "you can't change people" point of view is unrealistic--everyone has vices or develops them over a long period of time. You should make an attempt to change these things when they come up. I'm only talking about major life issues though, the things that have a significant impact on your health and happiness. I'm currently trying to change my girlfriend's tendency to be hypercritical of herself and others, which leads to a significant amount of anxiety for her. She's trying to make me be more responsible with chores and more outgoing/social. Both attempts at change in each other are healthy.
Star Gazer Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Hmm. I observed someone eating a lot of junk food and having little desire to eat healthy, and realized he also had no ambition whatsoever and was perfectly fine allowing me to be the breadwinner and his sugarmomma. In short, I never tried to change him, but it was obvious he had no desire to be a better person overall. I dumped him.
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Like a lot of men, he wants you to leave him so he won't feel guilty being the bad guy. Either go for couples counseling or find someone better. Or do what my ex did--break up with him and then tell your friends and family that he's the one who dumped you. She didn't want to look like the bad gal either, apparently.
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I agree with those who essentially said change isn't black and white. I have a friend who dated a guy who was unattractive. As he became more invested in her, she began asking him to make small changes -- see a dentist to get his teeth cleaned, wearing contact lenses instead of glasses, taking him shopping for better clothes, taking him to her hairdresser, teaching him table manners. He seemed quite happy to do it and became much more attractive as a result, which pleased them both. They eventually got married. I've made little changes for the men in my life if I saw no good reason not to and if the changes made me a better person or look better. I am big on self improvement though. I agree, if you can absolutely improve your significant other, you should do so. I always appreciate it when people do that for me--it means they love you. If you can't see that and they're being objective and balanced, you're immature, which unfortunately appears to be the rule with most people, not the exception. However, nitpicking trivial things like ES's boyfriend apparently does deserves a swift kick to the nards.
joeyanna Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I am the latter and my bf is the former. Major source of conflict. Example: when he met me he wanted to change my weight, my hair color, how ambitious I am and even how much sleep I need. He made subtle and no so subtle comments on all of the above CONSTANTLY. Lately he even criticizes me on the way I turn pages in a book. Apparently, turning them by putting your finger in the middle is MUCH better than any other way. Otherwise, I risk destroying the book by ripping a page. (note: I have been reading books for 20+ years and have never damaged a page). I also would have preferred that his body is more toned and tighter, but whenever he expressed any worries, I was quick to reassure him that I find him cute and sexy. Whenever I expressed any worries (and often when I didn't), he would always tell me that I need to lose weight (and a lot more than what is really healthy). I was in a relationship with someone like this for two years. The criticisms were small to begin with got bigger and bigger over time. According to him I was fat, physically repulsive, wore the wrong clothes, changed my hair styles too often etc etc. He would force me to exercise with him, if I didn't he wouldn't speak to me for days and I eventually became anorexic because of him. I lived with him for two weeks (before moving out again though still stayed in a relationship with him for a further year) and during that time he would check the food in the fridge and cupboards twice a day to make sure I wasn't eating anything I shouldn't be such as chocolate which he would them proceed to eat in front of me. And I did become pregnant, miscarrying at 16 weeks, two weeks after losing the baby he told me I was still looking fat and should sort myself out. I eventually found the courage to leave him at which time he begged me to stay, asked me to marry him (he had even bought a ring) and when I confronted him about his behaviour he told me that it had all been a lie, that he thought that I was too good for him and that he had been so scared of losing me the only way he could find to keep me was to control me. It destroyed my confidence and obliterated my self esteem, and even now, 7 years later, I am still recovering so my advice to you would be to seriously consider if this is the kind of behaviour you can put up with for the rest of your life or whether it's time to move on and find someone who will love and appreciate you for who you are, not for someone they want you to be. Good luck and best wishes.
zengirl Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I agree that it does depend heavily on what's meant by changing. For example, my BF criticizes my eating habits fairly often (like me not liking salad or fresh fruit or raw vegetables). This shouldn't affect him, as it's not like I eat junk all the time (we eat mostly rice-based dishes with lots of veggies, and meat), and I maintain a healthy weight with little to no effort. I end up feeling guilty every time I want to get some ice cream or cookies from the grocery store, and heaven forbid I suggest pizza for dinner one night because we're feeling too lazy to prepare something. Last time I did that he said I like all the foods that are 'bad' for me. I said, "If that were even remotely true then we'd be eating two different meals every night. And perhaps it would be easier for me to mold myself to your views on eating if you turned them into actions instead of just words. Hard to take you seriously when you talk about how 'bad' something is and you put it in your mouth anyway." Interesting. I would say, in that case, it depends on what he's saying, really. It sounds like at least some of it is projecting: he wants to eat better himself but isn't. My eating habits took a big hit when I met my SO, but I stepped back, talked about it with him, and basically said I wasn't eating junk anymore, so if he wanted to, he'd have to buy it or prepare it, and we'd have to eat separate meals. I wasn't trying to change him, but it is difficult to eat well with a partner who eats terribly. So, I see that as something worth discussing, personally. My hubby (BF at the time) was actually empowered to eat better by my choices, though we both still have junk from time to time. Just not like we were. I think the problem becomes when "criticism" enters the field. How a couple handles communication, without anyone feeling over-criticized, is really more about how they communicate and empathize with each other than whether or not they want to "change" each other. Differences don't tend to magically go away, so it's not about changing the person, but learning to communicate more effectively and also let some things be. At the same time, changing someone from criticizing you is changing them too, isn't it!?!? It's a Catch-22. There's also the career/education thing. He's got a master's, he earns a good chunk of money; I am a clerical wage worker, but I really like my job. I was never ambitious, never sought a career. But he thinks I made 'bad' choices, and he assumed I would agree with him in that. He thinks I could and should be doing better for myself, and I know I could, but I don't feel the need or desire to. I told him there's no end to 'better'. I am perfectly fine with where I'm at. Again I told him that if he wanted someone more on 'his' level in this regard, he always has the choice to find a new girlfriend. Seems like a typical Indian perspective, so I agree with his cultural assessment in terms of where that comes from. Frankly, even being half-Japanese, I was so ingrained in achievement culture that I couldn't really understand being happy with being a clerical wage worker forever; maybe as a stepping stone, but that being it? Sounds weird to me on a fundamental level, which is not to criticize you, as I totally think people should do what makes them happy, but I could never do that or even imagine it. I'm not even sure I can properly empathize with that perspective since I can't imagine it. Achievement culture doesn't go away, IME. ETA: Is he wrong to say it? Sure, maybe. The problem is likely the problem many people have: They love their partner, but they worry that the compatibility isn't there. I'd say you even have that problem yourself. Some people criticize or hope for change, others cut their losses, and I suppose some might accept it, but. . . not really. You're not REALLY accepting all of his behaviors either. You just differentiate differently (and I tend to agree with you that it is different) between behaviors that impact the partner and behaviors that don't, and you have different ideas of what those behaviors and traits are. Edited January 10, 2012 by zengirl
neowulf Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Personally, I *hate* being nitpicked. HATE IT! It is the most annoying, insidious way of attempting to control a person there is. Love is just being able to let your hair down and *be* who you are. Not trying to live up to the impossible image someone decides to project onto you.
pandagirl Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I grew up with a very nit-picky, naggy mother (though I do love her ), and I would not stand a man who did the same to me. It drives me absolutely crazy. Sure, if there is some goal I want to achieve (fitness, career, etc), please, I welcome the "advice" to keep me on track. Otherwise, please be quiet.
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