Woggle Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I'm not sure either. I feel like I'm on a different planet sometimes in these posts......I have dated some A-holes, but honestly I've NEVER had this issue come up. It astounds me that this is such an issue with men. I'm wondering if I should be tackling the waiter when he comes out of the kitchen in order to get the bill first, so the guy I'm with doesn't think I'm an "entitled gold digger".......but then.....if I tackled a waiter, I wouldn't be percieved as feminine, right? You don't have to go that far but if you are interested at least be willing to pay on date 3 or 4 or at least treat him to a cut of coffee. At the very least show some appreciation. Also if you are not interested in a second date at least split the bill and be honest with him.
O'Malley Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Back in the day before online dating, a man would meet a woman out and about, they'd hit it off or at least enjoy talking to each other a bit, and he'd offer to take her out. He'd pay because he'd be trying to win her over, to court her favor. These days with online dating, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that guys pay on first dates all the time because they're strangers and it's not a scenario where he's trying to win her over - they're meeting for the first time and have nothing at stake. Personally, I'd split the check in those circumstances. However, if he asks for a second date, then it would seem that he IS trying to win her over and he'd want to pay for that reason...whatever it takes to make his case and win her over. I've never done online dating, but it seems to me it's just a way to find someone to meet up with, and not a date, really. It's a pre-date. Splitting the check is fine, but I can see how if a guy figures out that he does like her and wants to see her again, he'd pay because he wants her to agree to see him again. Absolutely. On line dating has far less expectations and prior interaction in the initial stages, so it makes more sense to go dutch. I don't think it's worth the awkwardness of wrestling for the check, though, if one party insists on treating, but then these probably aren't the guys who are searching for moochers under every rock. Be appreciative, pay for the tip, the drinks or parking, or if you want to see the guy again, offer to treat him next time. It's too bad that the OP has missed out on the experience of mutual courtship -- it's not putting someone on a pedestal and it's not one sided.
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I believe in social flexibility and change - and I also am influenced by romantic and chivalrous gestures. No man should feel that he is obliged to pay for anything in dating / courting, despite tradition. BUT, no one can righteously expect the whole culture to shift to accommodate their own particular perspective. They need to just seek out likeminded people. There WILL still be men who date / court traditionally, and women who respond favorably to that; also, women who will only date under those conditions. I've long advocated that men boycott women to prove a point. Good luck with proving that point. Dating, courting, sex, love and marriage will continue to go on all around you. For the record, I do not buy into ANY of the traditional role stuff that our culture has been conditioning us to believe for generations. I do, however, respond very positively to it when it is offered freely and happily by a man I like. I have earned more money and had more "stuff" than both of my husbands. My "new" husband has a very humble, not super high paying blue collar job. Still, he made a BIG deal of showing me how seriously he was taking meeting me on our first date. It was very romantic and he had put a lot of thought and care into the whole thing. He did it with confidence. If I would have offered to pay half, it certainly would have put a dent in his lovely gesture. I am not advocating that guys behave the way he did - and he did not do stuff like that typically, either. Knowing him, if he and I did not become "serious," if there had been no spark (we met through OLD but because of our insane travel schedules it took us some time to meet), or even if I'd turned out to be a wretched beast of a woman, he would NOT have felt "bitter" or used. He did what he wanted to do and I liked it a lot.
fortyninethousand322 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Good luck with proving that point. Dating, courting, sex, love and marriage will continue to go on all around you. Perhaps. But I'll feel better. And, it'll teach women a lesson.
Woggle Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Love, courting and marriage still happen but these things are pretty much in a downward spiral these days.
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 If all men boycotted women, Women most likely wouldn't care. They would still be as happy as ever going on their merry way while likely not even thinking about men. Except, all men will never boycott women. You guys should definitely do it, though. Just leave the dating, courting, sex, intimacy, etc. to the men who actually like women in general. We'll appreciate the culling!
Woggle Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 If all men boycotted women, Women most likely wouldn't care. They would still be as happy as ever going on their merry way while likely not even thinking about men. Men like women. Men want romance, sex, intimacy, love and so forth with women. To most men finding a woman is a very important aspect of life. Women are indifferent to men. Women see relationships and romance with men as trivial nonsense. If women suddenly could reproduce without us, they would drop us like a hot potato. There are exceptions but I sort of agree with this. Men on an average love a lot more deeply than women do.
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 There are exceptions but I sort of agree with this. Men on an average love a lot more deeply than women do. I truly do not believe this. I think that the ability to love deeply has NOTHING to do with gender; I think it's completely individual. I know I am always debunking the gender-generalizations here, but I do acknowledge that there are (generally speaking) some differences - and this is not one of them.
Woggle Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I truly do not believe this. I think that the ability to love deeply has NOTHING to do with gender; I think it's completely individual. I know I am always debunking the gender-generalizations here, but I do acknowledge that there are (generally speaking) some differences - and this is not one of them. Women can love deeply but I think most in romantic relationships could take or leave their men. He is there to serve a purpose and when that purpose is over he is tossed out.
fortyninethousand322 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I truly do not believe this. I think that the ability to love deeply has NOTHING to do with gender; I think it's completely individual. I know I am always debunking the gender-generalizations here, but I do acknowledge that there are (generally speaking) some differences - and this is not one of them. To be fair, you do belong to a slightly different generation than some of the younger men on here. I don't know Woggle's age, but I'm pretty sure you're a few years older than me. That has a lot to do with it. Today's young women really don't like men as much as men like women.
fortyninethousand322 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Ridiculous. Our biology is the same today as it was a thousand years ago.... a hundred years ago and 25 years ago. Biology doesn't rule people's feelings and attractions. It can have an impact but it doesn't just take over. Men are obsolete these days.
soserious1 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I'm not sure either. I feel like I'm on a different planet sometimes in these posts......I have dated some A-holes, but honestly I've NEVER had this issue come up. It astounds me that this is such an issue with men. I'm wondering if I should be tackling the waiter when he comes out of the kitchen in order to get the bill first, so the guy I'm with doesn't think I'm an "entitled gold digger".......but then.....if I tackled a waiter, I wouldn't be percieved as feminine, right? You're being really disingenuous here & it doesn't become you. It is VERY easy to make sure that separate checks are brought to the table or to pick up the entire tab yourself without embarrassing your date & without having to "tackle a waiter" Calling the restaurant beforehand & giving them your credit card info, letting them know that you don't wish your date to be presented with a bill or excusing yourself to the powder room during the meal, getting your server's attention and asking for separate checks or paying the whole bill is very simple and easy. Also, more and more places now will ask if you want separate tabs when you first st down, let your voice be the one to speak first saying "yes" with a smile.
fortyninethousand322 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Both of us are rather well off but, to all you younger guys under 30, it would be an eye opener on 'how much' that girl sitting across from you may have spent to trying and look her best. The $50 tab for the meal might suddenly not seem like a lot. Also, taking 10 minutes to clean your car isn't much effort to the hour she took prepping before the date. Guys don't always appreciate the time, effort and expense our gals put into a date. Lol. The last girl I went on a date with (almost exactly one year ago) was wearing a sweatshirt and jeans. If it took her an hour to come up with that outfit she could really use a course in time management. By the way, I didn't care that she was wearing jeans and a sweatshirt. I went on the date to spend time with her and get to know her, not to see if she could win a fashion contest.
fortyninethousand322 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 It is no mystery why you haven't had a date in a year. What's that supposed to mean? I'll grant you it might take a little while to put on some makeup, but if my teenage sister can take less than a half an hour to get ready for school, I really don't see how it HAS to take 1 hour or more to get ready for a date.
AD1980 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Of course I want to be made to feel special. My gal spends a lot of time and effort on looking good for me. She makes an effoirt to say things to give encouragement to my work. She makes an effort to participate in activities I enjoy. she'll buy me an inexpensive but thoughtful gifts...perhaps a wedge of my favorite cheese or a nature guide book. Both of us are rather well off but, to all you younger guys under 30, it would be an eye opener on 'how much' that girl sitting across from you may have spent to trying and look her best. The $50 tab for the meal might suddenly not seem like a lot. Also, taking 10 minutes to clean your car isn't much effort to the hour she took prepping before the date. Guys don't always appreciate the time, effort and expense our gals put into a date. Men have to make good impressions also we cant come dressed like a bum either i wear nice clothes that costs money as well..
A O Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 it would be an eye opener on 'how much' that girl sitting across from you may have spent to trying and look her best. The $50 tab for the meal might suddenly not seem like a lot. That's not our concern. Women spend whatever amounts whether they're going out on dates, going our with friends or simply just stepping out the door. You cannot compare this expense to that of a meal tab. They are two separate beasts altogether. .
A O Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 The effort she puts in, the way she looks and what not, you went to comment or compliment, by all means do so. The expense involved in all that and equating that with paying for the date - not applicable The effort and the expense will still occur whether she's out on a date or out with friends or out and about in general. .
Sanman Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Both of us are rather well off but, to all you younger guys under 30, it would be an eye opener on 'how much' that girl sitting across from you may have spent to trying and look her best. The $50 tab for the meal might suddenly not seem like a lot. Also, taking 10 minutes to clean your car isn't much effort to the hour she took prepping before the date. Guys don't always appreciate the time, effort and expense our gals put into a date. I agree with the others here. I have yet to meet a woman who went and purchased a dress, makeup, etc just for an early date with me. I also have to wear jeans, a nice button down, a blazer, and cologne for her.The women I have dated showed up from casual to well dressed based on how THEY like to dress (not one of them asked my opinion before showing up). If I am ever single again, I will be sure to wear an $800 blazer, a $200 dress shirt, and spray on some $100 cologne. Then I'll let the woman across the table know she owes me dinner because she gets to see me wear said clothes. Now, my gf will buy clothes that she thinks I like on her or consult me on what she wears. That I do appreciate very much. Edited January 11, 2012 by Sanman
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 To be fair, you do belong to a slightly different generation than some of the younger men on here. I don't know Woggle's age, but I'm pretty sure you're a few years older than me. That has a lot to do with it. Today's young women really don't like men as much as men like women. I'm old as dirt, but I have a daughter who is 24. We are very close and I also have known many of her friends since they were very little kids. I'm very in touch with what's going on with them. I am sure that if they were posting here, they would strongly disagree with you. Especially my daughter, who is going through a horrible break up with her boyfriend of 5 years right now. Also, let me say that not every person is a complete product of the environment and generation that surrounds them. Sure, influence can't be avoided, but there are so many people who refuse to drink ANY of the various forms of kool-aid that are constantly being proffered, and who are thinking for themselves. People of all ages.
Casablanca Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 This. Ive never really had to court a gal. We usually show each other we both like one another and take it from there. No one pedestalizes anyone. If you have a girl on a pedestal then you arent valuing yourself properly. Remember, thyself is the prize. Thats what I tell myself. I always ask "what can she offer me in a relationship" And if its not as much as I can offer her, then I move on. This is how it works for me, if a girl doesnt show interest I stop, if she likes me, she'll show it and I will show it too if I feel the same
TheBigQuestion Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Women who expect to be paid for on early dates as a matter of "vaginal privilege" are disgusting human beings, and the ones who don't honestly address the issue and rationalize, rationalize continuously about it aren't much better. I think this is probably the most alarming part about this whole thread. Why can't any woman come out and say that they rationalize their acceptance (or preference) for this custom primarily because they don't want to lose something that unilaterally benefits them? That is the subtext of pretty much every post, and the fact that it's being rationalized in such a disingenuous manner is pretty sad.
Cypress25 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Some women do not consider cheese pizza a proper meal. That doesn't include drinks or other date activities. Unless all he got you was a slice of pizza, he spent more than that. I can't be held responsible for "some women." The guy asked me out and gave me a choice of 3 places. I chose the pizza place because I like pizza. It was just a dinner date, we didn't go anywhere else before or after. I prefer to keep first dates simple, as the conversation should be the focus. I never order drinks or dessert on a date. I literally had a slice of pizza and a glass of tap water. Cost him $8, since he declined my offer to pay. Most women do not show up with a brand new fancy dress, a new expensive haircut and jewellry on the first date. It's the hair and makeup that requires time and effort. Once you start sleeping with a girl and you see what she looks like first thing in the morning, you realize how meticulously she must have applied makeup and styled her hair for your first date. How rottenly, unabashedly dishonest, privileged and self-absorbed one must be to use $10 as a cost of an average date with a straight face, or to perpetually reduce the issue to -one- single date some guy has to pay for and then that's it. This is a lifetime tax on men that easily mounts up into tens of thousands of dollars if not much more. Poor baby! Some mean authority figure is forcing you to go out on multiple dates to fancy restaurants with women who demand to be treated to expensive dinners. And they're making you do this several times a week, every week, for the rest of your life! And you don't have any choice in the matter, how horrible. But really, I don't see how it's "rottenly, unabashedly dishonest, privileged and self-absorbed" to say that the average cost that I incur on a date is $10. It's the truth. I don't know why that's so hard to believe. Nor do I understand why dating should be a "lifetime tax on men." Don't most men eventually get married and then have access to a joint checking account that includes their wife's income? Even before they get married, most men don't continue to pay for dates throughout an entire relationship. Couples in long-term relationships generally split the cost of dates, or they take turns paying. Of course, if you've never been involved in an actual relationship and you plan to date a different woman every week for the rest of your life, that's your own fault. If you never applied to a school with affirmative action policies in place favoring women, never applied for a job with same policies, never go out drinking unescorted in public, have remained relatively chaste before marriage and expect to be a traditional housewife after marriage, BY ALL MEANS, expect men to pay for early courtship. That's why the tradition exists. It NEVER EVER attached to your being female or to "chivalry," but as a PRECURSOR to well-defined and somewhat rigid social roles. If you don't "do" the roles, you don't get the freebies... or the restrictions of the defined social role. It's only mass-ignorant, hyperprivileged "have it all" bitches who could begin to think otherwise. Welcome to the U.S.A. And here I thought affirmative action was about race, not gender. Even with all the changes in gender roles, we still live in a patriarchal society where men have every advantage. So stop whining. It's not like you have to pay for women on dates. You have a choice. Your choice might mean that some women won't date you, but you think they're bitches anyway, so who cares? By the way, most men these days don't want a woman who stays chaste before marriage and then becomes a traditional housewife. They want a woman who will engage in wild sex on the third date and, if they end up getting married, who will have a full-time job and contribute to the household income. Don't act like men miss the traditional woman; the modern woman is more sexually liberated and works harder outside the home as well as inside it. Because when men get married, they still expect their wife to do the cooking, cleaning, and laundry, even if she also works full time and helps him pay the bills. You think women are the only ones who cling to traditions that benefit them? Men do it too. Women who expect to be paid for on early dates as a matter of "vaginal privilege" are disgusting human beings, and the ones who don't honestly address the issue and rationalize, rationalize continuously about it aren't much better. That's why women are better off dating men who actually like women. The ones who hate women, like you, can stay home alone and bitch about how much each date is costing them. Why can't any woman come out and say that they rationalize their acceptance (or preference) for this custom primarily because they don't want to lose something that unilaterally benefits them? I don't know, probably for the same reason that men don't want to admit that they benefit from the custom that says women should be responsible for all household and child care duties, in addition to their full-time job. Truly, I never felt that I was benefiting financially by allowing a man to treat me to the first 2 or 3 cheap-ass dates we went on. (If we continued dating, that is usually the point at which we would start splitting the cost of dates.) I suppose I did get a few free slices of pizza, but I wasn't thinking about how much money I was saving. Free dinner is not a benefit that I care about. What I care about is the gesture behind it, because I give a lot to relationships and I do a lot for my boyfriend, and I'd like to be with someone who is equally giving and equally willing to do things for the person they care about. I don't want to be with someone who is always itemizing the bill, who is always saying "that's not fair" or "you owe me," who is never willing to give of himself without demanding something in return. Scrooge, basically. No one wants to date Scrooge.
aj22one Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 And here I thought affirmative action was about race, not gender. Even with all the changes in gender roles, we still live in a patriarchal society where men have every advantage. So stop whining. It's not like you have to pay for women on dates. You have a choice. Your choice might mean that some women won't date you, but you think they're bitches anyway, so who cares? Haha "patriarchal society". I was under the assumption you lived in the U.S. not Afghanistan. The U.S. is most certainly not a "patriarchal society". Men have no more rights than women do. And even when women didn't have rights, it's not really like most men enjoyed all those extras. Life's been pretty crappy for both men and women up until fairly recently in human history.
Queen Zenobia Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Haha "patriarchal society". I was under the assumption you lived in the U.S. not Afghanistan. The U.S. is most certainly not a "patriarchal society". Men have no more rights than women do. And even when women didn't have rights, it's not really like most men enjoyed all those extras. Life's been pretty crappy for both men and women up until fairly recently in human history. The "Patriarchy" is as mythical as the idea that capitalism needs regulation to work, or Social Security is a good deal, or that unicorns exist, etc.
Cypress25 Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Haha "patriarchal society". I was under the assumption you lived in the U.S. not Afghanistan. The U.S. is most certainly not a "patriarchal society". Men have no more rights than women do. Please don't make me cite the earning gap between men and women. (I'll do it anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States) And then there's the glass ceiling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling. Aside from that, just the fact that men are generally more respected and taken more seriously than women wherever they go is enough to illustrate the patriarchal attitude. We're all supposed to have the same rights, but in reality, we don't. Ever been to a car dealership by yourself? Ever seen a woman at a car dealership by herself? Men and women are NOT treated the same, that's just a fact of life. Yes, it's better in the U.S. than Afghanistan, I'm not complaining and I do consider myself very lucky, but being a man has always been an advantage. You benefit from it, even if you don't realize it.
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