Oxy Moronovich Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Treating a girl to a $10 meal is hardly putting her on a pedestal. Really, women aren't asking for a lot here. And no one uses people for free meals. Trust me, a woman would much rather buy her own dinner than have to sit through dinner with a guy she doesn't like. Unless you're dating homeless women, in which case they might be that desperate for a free meal. Dating is like anything else: you get out of it what you put in. Men and women both have to invest some time and effort in dating if they want a satisfying relationship. I'm not lazy or stingy in my relationships, so I won't put up with a partner who is. If you're the type of guy who doesn't want to give anything to a relationship, then maybe you just shouldn't date. Guys are talking about having to pay for women during the initial stages of a relationship. Always being expected to pay when you're just starting out is what gripes many guys. Having to pay for women you're in a relationship with is not a big problem with most men.
snug.bunny Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 However, they will often go out with a guy they are not particularly attracted to because it costs them nothing. They will let the guy pay for dinner then flake out 2 days later with not a word. They will decide the guy isn't what they are looking for... and still let him pay the full meal. ... ect. Also, if you think a guy paying for a date means he is "generous"... your being naive. Yeah, because NO guy would ever go out on a first date with a woman and decide he doesn't like her enough to go out again. And NO guy has ever decided a particular woman isn't what he is interested in relationship wise, but will still have sex with her. Okay, righto.
fortyninethousand322 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Yeah, because NO guy would ever go out on a first date with a woman and decide he doesn't like her enough to go out again. And NO guy has ever decided a particular woman isn't what he is interested in relationship wise, but will still have sex with her. Okay, righto. Good guys don't do those things. But good guys still have to protect themselves from being taken advantage of (like good women do). Why is that so hard to understand? Why is it everyone hates good guys?
iris219 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 However, they will often go out with a guy they are not particularly attracted to because it costs them nothing. They will let the guy pay for dinner then flake out 2 days later with not a word. They will decide the guy isn't what they are looking for... and still let him pay the full meal. ... ect. Also, if you think a guy paying for a date means he is "generous"... your being naive. Women go out with men they aren't super attracted to initially hoping they will become more attracted to the guy once they get to know him. What's wrong with giving a guy a chance? It has nothing to do with a free meal. I think a man paying for my dinner is a gentleman and has a sense of chivalry, which is very attractive to me. He's asserting his role as a man and I like that. I don't see what's so wrong with gender roles like some do on LS (maybe that's cause I'm a nice southern girl).
snug.bunny Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Good guys don't do those things. But good guys still have to protect themselves from being taken advantage of (like good women do). Why is that so hard to understand? Why is it everyone hates good guys? Of course good guys don't do that. Who said anything about hating good guys? And yes, of COURSE good guys have to protect themselves, no one is saying they shouldn't. UF was saying that often women will go out with a guy they're not attracted to, for free dinners. Yes, there are women who do that, and will continue to even if/when she has no real romantic interest in him. And I said, some guys often do the same, except he most likely isn't looking for a supply of free dinners... Part of the investment on the man's part, is attached to his wallet. And part of the investment on the woman's part, is emotional. Men work hard for their money and spending it on someone who doesn't appreciate it and/or someone who doesn't want nor will ever have a romantic attraction to the the guy, is pointless unless he doesn't care or is fine with it otherwise. Same with women. Some women at some point in her life, or for the majority of her life, will sleep with men without a dime being spent and she's fine with that because it's just about sex and nothing else. If anything, you should be mad at those guys.
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Yeah, because NO guy would ever go out on a first date with a woman and decide he doesn't like her enough to go out again. And NO guy has ever decided a particular woman isn't what he is interested in relationship wise, but will still have sex with her. Okay, righto. Sure... I've nixed many women for whatever reason. I didn't accept money, favors, or sex from them. By comparing women wanting a man to pay for a date to men who use women for sex... your basically implying that both are bad behaviors. To that I would agree. Women go out with men they aren't super attracted to initially hoping they will become more attracted to the guy once they get to know him. What's wrong with giving a guy a chance? It has nothing to do with a free meal. To my thinking, if you want to give a guy you don't find attractive a chance... then you should pay for yourself. It removes the incentive to take advantage of the situation, and ensures nobody has hard feelings later. I think a man paying for my dinner is a gentleman and has a sense of chivalry, which is very attractive to me. He's asserting his role as a man and I like that. I don't see what's so wrong with gender roles like some do on LS (maybe that's cause I'm a nice southern girl). Nothing wrong with gender roles... as long as your not just picking the ones that benefit you and ditching the rest. So... if that same gentleman expects you to honor and obey him... you have no problems with that?
Woggle Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Yeah, because NO guy would ever go out on a first date with a woman and decide he doesn't like her enough to go out again. And NO guy has ever decided a particular woman isn't what he is interested in relationship wise, but will still have sex with her. Okay, righto. Why do women always justify everything a woman does because men do it too? Do you want it to be a competition?
fortyninethousand322 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Of course good guys don't do that. Who said anything about hating good guys? And yes, of COURSE good guys have to protect themselves, no one is saying they shouldn't. UF was saying that often women will go out with a guy they're not attracted to, for free dinners. Yes, there are women who do that, and will continue to even if/when she has no real romantic interest in him. And I said, some guys often do the same, except he most likely isn't looking for a supply of free dinners... Part of the investment on the man's part, is attached to his wallet. And part of the investment on the woman's part, is emotional. Men work hard for their money and spending it on someone who doesn't appreciate it and/or someone who doesn't want nor will ever have a romantic attraction to the the guy, is pointless unless he doesn't care or is fine with it otherwise. Same with women. Some women at some point in her life, or for the majority of her life, will sleep with men without a dime being spent and she's fine with that because it's just about sex and nothing else. If anything, you should be mad at those guys. Oh yes, because men never invest emotions or feelings into their interactions with women. Maybe Jon Lajoie was right in that song when he said "I don't have feelings 'cause feelings are gay". Real men don't have feelings, that's what's holding me back.
Dust Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Oh yes, because men never invest emotions or feelings into their interactions with women. Maybe Jon Lajoie was right in that song when he said "I don't have feelings 'cause feelings are gay". Real men don't have feelings, that's what's holding me back. You and your feelings! It's ok to have them just realize your not equiped to express them in the way women do... Be a man action!
fortyninethousand322 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 You and your feelings! It's ok to have them just realize your not equiped to express them in the way women do... Be a man action! I was demonstrating a point. I don't actually have feelings. I'm not a woman.
Dust Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I was demonstrating a point. I don't actually have feelings. I'm not a woman. yeah I get it funny guy. Like I said nothing wrong with having feelings. Its just certain guys on here expect their feelings to get them laid.
somedude81 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Sigh, I wonder how things were in the old days. Odds are I'd probably be married with kids by now. I don't know what I'm doing anymore and my motivation is almost non-existent. It would be nice to have some sort of matchmaking going on.
carhill Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I hate the whole courting thing because it basically is the man putting a women on a pedestal and saying the man needs to prove himself to the women and that the man should have blind faith that the women he doesnt know that well should be trusted and would never have bad intentions herself and its up to the man to prove he has good intention not the women when in reality theyres just as many if not more scnadalous women out there as Men..Wow, long sentence IMO, it's unhealthy to participate in anything one patently believes is injurious or unfair. So, instead of 'courting' women, date them; socialize with them as equals. Express sexual and emotional interest within healthy boundaries where you don't feel injured or taken advantage of. If such results in zero with a particular woman, that. Life goes on. Sigh, I wonder how things were in the old days. Not much different in my generation but perhaps slightly different in my parent's generation (growing up during the Great Depression). People had different priorities back then and viewed each other differently than when I was young, or so my parents shared with me. I've told the story of my dad repeatedly going back to the store my mom worked at and buying clothes from her until she agreed to go out with him. Different era. Hey, they 'eloped' (if a 39 yo guy and 33 yo woman can elope) Edited January 10, 2012 by carhill
Feelsgoodman Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 If a woman likes you she likes you and no amount of extra effort will make a difference in that. Quoted for truth.
snug.bunny Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Why do women always justify everything a woman does because men do it too? Do you want it to be a competition? Woggle, you misinterpreted my post in response to UF's comment. I was not defending women who use men for money or justifying them doing it as "okay". I kind of agree and kind of disagree on this. Sure, the vast majority of women are not out for a free dinner. However, they will often go out with a guy they are not particularly attracted to because it costs them nothing. They will let the guy pay for dinner then flake out 2 days later with not a word. They will decide the guy isn't what they are looking for... and still let him pay the full meal. ... ect. Let's take this particular instance. If a woman decides at the end of the first date, that she isn't "feeling it", she should be willing and offer to pay for her meal, right? What if he declines her offer, and chooses to pay anyway? I suppose the proper response on her part, would be to say outright "I'm not interested in you, so, I think it's best you let me pay for my meal". Or, if a woman decides at the end of the first date, that she IS "feeling it", she should be willing and offer to pay for her meal, right? What if he declines her offer, and chooses to pay anyway? But, what IF, she is willing and offers to pay, and said man then becomes confused because maybe he thinks, by her wanting to pay her own way that she is uninterested in him romantically. What if the guy decides at the end of the first date, that he isn't romantically interested in her. Well, he can then tally up the bill at the end and ask for half, or hope that she offers to pay for half, or he can pay for both their meals and call it a day. I'm just throwing out some variables, I honestly have only been on a handful of "first dates" for the majority of my single life. Most dates have progressed into long term relationships, and I can honestly say that the whole "money" thing was NEVER an issue. And the ones that didn't, there was no further contact on either part OR, it was just sex. And, I've paid for more than my share during that time and I never had an issue with it either. I never had an issue with staying in, or doing things that were fun but cost little to no money, or cooking dinner for my boyfriends, or cleaning up their apartment house for them when I didn't even live there. Or surprising them with gifts and things they'd like. That's what we do. Dating, is a whole other ball game, as it seems to be as evidenced throughout these threads. Everyone is on guard to a degree, everyone demonstrates and perceives interest and intent differently, and everyone is looking out for his/her interests initially. If they weren't, there probably would be less complaints and confusion.
Feelsgoodman Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Let's take this particular instance. If a woman decides at the end of the first date, that she isn't "feeling it", she should be willing and offer to pay for her meal, right? What if he declines her offer, and chooses to pay anyway? I suppose the proper response on her part, would be to say outright "I'm not interested in you, so, I think it's best you let me pay for my meal". A woman should offer to pay for her meal regardless of whether she's "not feeling it". Not even offering to pay is extremely rude and presumptuous. I would never go on a second date with a woman who did that. Or, if a woman decides at the end of the first date, that she IS "feeling it", she should be willing and offer to pay for her meal, right? What if he declines her offer, and chooses to pay anyway? But, what IF, she is willing and offers to pay, and said man then becomes confused because maybe he thinks, by her wanting to pay her own way that she is uninterested in him romantically. Well, you could always tell the guy that you had a great time at the end of the date (or send him a text expressing such sentiment shortly after the date). That would avoid any potential confusion.
Sanman Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Women go out with men they aren't super attracted to initially hoping they will become more attracted to the guy once they get to know him. What's wrong with giving a guy a chance? It has nothing to do with a free meal. I think a man paying for my dinner is a gentleman and has a sense of chivalry, which is very attractive to me. He's asserting his role as a man and I like that. I don't see what's so wrong with gender roles like some do on LS (maybe that's cause I'm a nice southern girl). Yes, but is not selfish to only be concerned about your feelings toward this guy and not consider that this guy is spending money while you take time to make your decision? There is no need for confusion. You can simply say: "It was nice meeting you, but I cannot see taking this relationship further. Would you mind if we split the bill?" or " I really am interested in seeing you again, but I prefer to split the bill on early dates because it only seems fair." Women are considered the more communicative sex, yet they seem stymied when the bill comes. For the record the man paying for the bill is not a gentleman as most men realize that a large percentage of women will not see them further if they do not pick up the bill and, thus, do so. It does not make the practice fair or just. There was a time in U.S. history that slavery was considered alright simply because it was a norm and you were a southerner. Did not make that practice right either. For some reason, people feel personal and societal development should stop just because we are in the current day and age. We are not a perfect society and should not pretend to be. This is simply an example of a modern day inequality that has yet to change.
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Let's take this particular instance. If a woman decides at the end of the first date, that she isn't "feeling it", she should be willing and offer to pay for her meal, right? What if he declines her offer, and chooses to pay anyway? I suppose the proper response on her part, would be to say outright "I'm not interested in you, so, I think it's best you let me pay for my meal". This is a correctly handled situation. Optimally the rejecting party should cover the entire meal, though that could be cost prohibitive for picky people. Or, if a woman decides at the end of the first date, that she IS "feeling it", she should be willing and offer to pay for her meal, right? What if he declines her offer, and chooses to pay anyway? But, what IF, she is willing and offers to pay, and said man then becomes confused because maybe he thinks, by her wanting to pay her own way that she is uninterested in him romantically. In this situation... there isn't even a need for her to offer payment. The guy should pay this bill. There are however conditions: 1. She can't be sleeping with other men. 2. She shouldn't change her mind later or take the second date half hearted. If she isn't sure... just split the bill. Once I took that as a sign of rejection, but we kept in contact and went on 5 more dates... some where awesome fun. Bottom line... if splitting the check causes so much confusion he doesn't know if you like him... they you failed to flirt enough anyway. What if the guy decides at the end of the first date, that he isn't romantically interested in her. Well, he can then tally up the bill at the end and ask for half, or hope that she offers to pay for half, or he can pay for both their meals and call it a day. If I decide to reject a woman I pay the entire bill, except under very rare circumstances. I'm just throwing out some variables, I honestly have only been on a handful of "first dates" for the majority of my single life. Most dates have progressed into long term relationships, and I can honestly say that the whole "money" thing was NEVER an issue. And the ones that didn't, there was no further contact on either part OR, it was just sex. Honestly dating kind of sucks. I'm glad things have always been fairly smooth for you.
iris219 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Yes, but is not selfish to only be concerned about your feelings toward this guy and not consider that this guy is spending money while you take time to make your decision? There is no need for confusion. You can simply say: "It was nice meeting you, but I cannot see taking this relationship further. Would you mind if we split the bill?" or " I really am interested in seeing you again, but I prefer to split the bill on early dates because it only seems fair." Women are considered the more communicative sex, yet they seem stymied when the bill comes. For the record the man paying for the bill is not a gentleman as most men realize that a large percentage of women will not see them further if they do not pick up the bill and, thus, do so. It does not make the practice fair or just. There was a time in U.S. history that slavery was considered alright simply because it was a norm and you were a southerner. Did not make that practice right either. For some reason, people feel personal and societal development should stop just because we are in the current day and age. We are not a perfect society and should not pretend to be. This is simply an example of a modern day inequality that has yet to change. Did you really just bring up slavery in a discussion of dating norms?! The two have nothing to do with each other and are in no way comparable. It's difficult to move on from that, but I'll try. There's no need to end a perfectly pleasant evening by telling a guy you aren't feeling it. That would be awkward for both parties. I hope a man never says that to me on a date. When you're on a date both people are deciding whether they like the other, not just the woman. I always ask a man if he'd like to split the bill, but they never accept, and some even seemed offended that I offered. Often the man will grab the bill and say "My treat" or "I got this." From my experiences, men don't mind paying for a woman at all. Those with disposable income seem to enjoy doing so. The last guy I dated always insisted on paying, which started to make me feel uncomfortable. I beat him to it with drinks one night. He kept saying I shouldn't have done that and that it made him made him feel bad. I lived with someone for several years. I did all of the cooking and cleaning, and that was fine. I enjoyed doing so because I felt like I was taking care if him. Who cares that he didn't help? We both worked and I went to school on top of working. Not everything is perfectly equal between men an women. If you don't want to do something for someone or will resent them for it, don't do it (rather than complaining about it).
TheBigQuestion Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Yes, but is not selfish to only be concerned about your feelings toward this guy and not consider that this guy is spending money while you take time to make your decision? There is no need for confusion. You can simply say: "It was nice meeting you, but I cannot see taking this relationship further. Would you mind if we split the bill?" or " I really am interested in seeing you again, but I prefer to split the bill on early dates because it only seems fair." Women are considered the more communicative sex, yet they seem stymied when the bill comes. For the record the man paying for the bill is not a gentleman as most men realize that a large percentage of women will not see them further if they do not pick up the bill and, thus, do so. It does not make the practice fair or just. There was a time in U.S. history that slavery was considered alright simply because it was a norm and you were a southerner. Did not make that practice right either. For some reason, people feel personal and societal development should stop just because we are in the current day and age. We are not a perfect society and should not pretend to be. This is simply an example of a modern day inequality that has yet to change. This. If a girl I was "courting" was unable to work because of existing societal norms, I would have no problem paying for most or all of her expenses. That's not the case anymore. Those societal conditions no longer exist. So why must the corresponding norm of men being expected to pay for dates (lest they risk being considered "cheap" or "un-gentlemanly") persist? I have a sneaking suspicion that many women are really quiet/indecisive when the check comes because they simply want the man to pay, even if they are offering, even if they aren't interested. That is what needs to change, and it's encouraging that it looks like it's changing.
jobaba Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I'm just throwing out some variables, I honestly have only been on a handful of "first dates" for the majority of my single life. Most dates have progressed into long term relationships, and I can honestly say that the whole "money" thing was NEVER an issue. And the ones that didn't, there was no further contact on either part OR, it was just sex. I think that's the way it should be. Honestly, I think a lot of people who serial date just get off on the high of having so many people of the opposite sex 'interested' in them. Ego boost if you will. If I like something about someone, I'll give them a shot, instead of looking for a dozen dealbreakers off the bat.
Feelsgoodman Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Did you really just bring up slavery in a discussion of dating norms?! The two have nothing to do with each other and are in no way comparable. It's difficult to move on from that, but I'll try. There's no need to end a perfectly pleasant evening by telling a guy you aren't feeling it. That would be awkward for both parties. I hope a man never says that to me on a date. When you're on a date both people are deciding whether they like the other, not just the woman. I always ask a man if he'd like to split the bill, but they never accept, and some even seemed offended that I offered. Often the man will grab the bill and say "My treat" or "I got this." From my experiences, men don't mind paying for a woman at all. Those with disposable income seem to enjoy doing so. The last guy I dated always insisted on paying, which started to make me feel uncomfortable. I beat him to it with drinks one night. He kept saying I shouldn't have done that and that it made him made him feel bad. I lived with someone for several years. I did all of the cooking and cleaning, and that was fine. I enjoyed doing so because I felt like I was taking care if him. Who cares that he didn't help? We both worked and I went to school on top of working. Not everything is perfectly equal between men an women. If you don't want to do something for someone or will resent them for it, don't do it (rather than complaining about it). I'm sorry but I don't buy this. What kind of a man would get "offended" and "feel bad" about a woman paying for herself? Even if a guy didn't mind picking up the tab, he sure as hell is not going to be offended or feel bad if a woman wanted to chip in. Most men would appreciate the gesture (as long as it's a genuine one) and respect the woman for not being a gold digger. The guys you are dating must be either very old or very old-fashioned (or both). Or maybe they are just insecure and feel that money is the only thing they have going for them...
D-Lish Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I'm sorry but I don't buy this. What kind of a man would get "offended" and "feel bad" about a woman paying for herself? Even if a guy didn't mind picking up the tab, he sure as hell is not going to be offended or feel bad if a woman wanted to chip in. Most men would appreciate the gesture (as long as it's a genuine one) and respect the woman for not being a gold digger. The guys you are dating must be either very old or very old-fashioned (or both). Or maybe they are just insecure and feel that money is the only thing they have going for them... I've had this happen as well with the 30-40 crowd. You'd be surprised how many guys act like offering to pitch in is offensive. I always offer regardless.
iris219 Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I'm sorry but I don't buy this. What kind of a man would get "offended" and "feel bad" about a woman paying for herself? Even if a guy didn't mind picking up the tab, he sure as hell is not going to be offended or feel bad if a woman wanted to chip in. Most men would appreciate the gesture (as long as it's a genuine one) and respect the woman for not being a gold digger. The guys you are dating must be either very old or very old-fashioned (or both). Or maybe they are just insecure and feel that money is the only thing they have going for them... Some men are chivalrous, not because they expect anything in return, but because it's a part of their character. I'm not sure why that's hard to believe.
imfromhoiland Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 It's gotten a lot farther and more "fair" than what you're describing. It's become more even, but it still isn't completely even in who is the "pursuer" and the "one who is pursued." Well, what it comes down to is you're a dude. Tough s***. To me, what women have to go through with child bearing more than makes up for me having to chase them to be the one worthy of making her go through that hellhole.
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