Emotional Manipulation

January 9, 2012

I came across this awesome article from the Huffington post and kept exclaiming OMG sooo true! I decided to share as I'm sure many women, in As and regular relationships have experienced this kind of thing and it's not right.

I've posted the link but here are some snippets:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/yashar-hedayat/a-message-to-women-from-a_1_b_958859.html

You're so sensitive. You're so emotional. You're defensive. You're overreacting. Calm down. Relax. Stop freaking out! You're crazy! I was just joking, don't you have a sense of humor? You're so dramatic. Just get over it already!

Sound familiar?

If you're a woman, it probably does.

When someone says these things to you, it's not an example of inconsiderate behavior. When your spouse shows up half an hour late to dinner without calling -- that's inconsiderate behavior. A remark intended to shut you down like, "Calm down, you're overreacting," after you just addressed someone else's bad behavior, is emotional manipulation, pure and simple.

And this is the sort of emotional manipulation that feeds an epidemic in our country, an epidemic that defines women as crazy, irrational, overly sensitive, unhinged. This epidemic helps fuel the idea that women need only the slightest provocation to unleash their (crazy) emotions. It's patently false and unfair.

I want to introduce a helpful term to identify these reactions: gaslighting.
Gaslighting is a term often used by mental health professionals (I am not one) to describe manipulative behavior used to confuse people into thinking their reactions are so far off base that they're crazy.

The form of gaslighting I'm addressing is not always pre-mediated or intentional, which makes it worse, because it means all of us, especially women, have dealt with it at one time or another.

Those who engage in gaslighting create a reaction -- whether it's anger, frustration, sadness -- in the person they are dealing with. Then, when that person reacts, the gaslighter makes them feel uncomfortable and insecure by behaving as if their feelings aren't rational or normal.

But gaslighting can be as simple as someone smiling and saying something like, "You're so sensitive," to somebody else. Such a comment may seem innocuous enough, but in that moment, the speaker is making a judgment about how someone else should feel.

While dealing with gaslighting isn't a universal truth for women, we all certainly know plenty of women who encounter it at work, home, or in personal relationships.

And the act of gaslighting does not simply affect women who are not quite sure of themselves. Even vocal, confident, assertive women are vulnerable to gaslighting.

Whether gaslighting is conscious or not, it produces the same result: It renders some women emotionally mute.

Edited January 9, 2012 by MissBee

January 9, 2012

While I understand the intent of the article, I do NOT care for the male-bashing tone of it.

Emotional manipulation is NOT solely a male-province attempt at getting someone to do what you want.

Not by a long-shot.

This article does outline one method often used...especially by men...because often women DO indeed seem to react too emotionally to some events in which men react less emotionally to.

Sometimes...men DO feel like a woman is reacting too strongly, too emotionally to a subject.

Sometimes...it is an attempt to manipulate someone...and sometimes it's not.

But...I dislike the viewpoint here that seems to indicate that men are the only ones who use this form of manipulation and they do so against women in an effort to control them.

I understand the point...but dislike the slant and tone of the article in general.

January 9, 2012

But...I dislike the viewpoint here that seems to indicate that men are the only ones who use this form of manipulation and they do so against women in an effort to control them.

On the flip-side, the "overly-emotional response" made by all those crazy ladies out there could easily be labelled as another form of manipulation.

Maybe we should make this thread less gender-centric. This is gender-war fodder. Where's Woggle?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Fabian Montenegro

January 9, 2012

While I understand the intent of the article, I do NOT care for the male-bashing tone of it.

Emotional manipulation is NOT solely a male-province attempt at getting someone to do what you want.

Not by a long-shot.

This article does outline one method often used...especially by men...because often women DO indeed seem to react too emotionally to some events in which men react less emotionally to.

Sometimes...men DO feel like a woman is reacting too strongly, too emotionally to a subject.

Sometimes...it is an attempt to manipulate someone...and sometimes it's not.

But...I dislike the viewpoint here that seems to indicate that men are the only ones who use this form of manipulation and they do so against women in an effort to control them.

I understand the point...but dislike the slant and tone of the article in general.

Well a man wrote it....

I didn't read it that way and to be frank, men can handle a little "bashing" in the effort to make visible, invisible ways of behaving.

Men don't use it only but he is discussing the large societal conditoning which makes certain behaviors and their responses gendered. Your critique reminds me of those who say things like how come there is no white history month or discuss reverse racism. The simple answer is that one group has been the dominant group and the group meting out the oppression...in this case patriarchy against women...therefore, that overall problem is being addressed after years and years of it. It is no long about individuals but becomes more about unearthing overall patterns that are embedded. Do women do this? I am sure...but it is not an embedded social response women en masse have learned...societally, for men it is.

Also the author, a male, has pointed out that this is subversive as it is not intentional. Which is the problem and point IMO...that no one is saying most men sit around and think about this...just like most white people these days don't sit around thinking about how to be racist...but the structures of society and overall conditioning support certain hegemonies and people like him, do work to make visible these unconscious ways in which we all behave but don't think about.

Edited January 9, 2012 by MissBee

January 9, 2012

I could identify with that article as a previous relationship with x-fiance who is probably NPD would do those things to me. The examples in the article also illustrate a lot of passive aggressiveness.

I think I have some mild pa tendencies myself when in an intimate relationship. Yuck! Sometimes I feel like there is just so much baggage to overcome, I'm better alone.

January 9, 2012

Well a man wrote it....

I didn't read it that way and to be frank, men can handle a little "bashing" in the effort to make visible, invisible ways of behaving.

Men don't use it only but he is discussing the large societal conditoning which makes certain behaviors and their responses gendered. Your critique reminds me of those who say things like how come there is no white history month or discuss reverse racism. The simple answer is that one group has been the dominant group and the group meting out the oppression...in this case patriarchy against women...therefore, that overall problem is being addressed after years and years of it. It is no long about individuals but becomes more about unearthing overall patterns that are embedded. Do women do this? I am sure...but it is not an embedded social response women en masse have learned...societally, for men it is.

Also the author, a male, has pointed out that this is subversive as it is not intentional. Which is the problem and point IMO...that no one is saying most men sit around and think about this...just like most white people these days don't sit around thinking about how to be racist...but the structures of society and overall conditioning support certain hegemonies and people like him, do work to make visible these unconscious ways in which we all behave but don't think about.

Well, to be honest both this article and your reply point out to me one of the real hallmarks of our society today...that the roles have reversed and it's ok to point the finger in the other direction today.

If a man said..."well, she WAS emotional and she should have just calmed down" in response to something along the lines of this thread...he'd be beaten down with a quickness. But...it's ok to say it's his fault because of the way women were treated in the past.

I'll be blunt...the worst racism I see today happens in the opposite direction of the standard stereotype. It's fine to call out against the white majority and say that they're to blame for (whatever it might be)...but let a member of the "majority" (btw...caucasion folks will soon become a minority in most developed countries now) say something similar and they too will be beat down for their remarks.

I don't care for either of these things to happen...in EITHER direction.

Had this article left out the gender comments and just talked about the subject directly without them...I could agree with it.

But...I doubt he would have had it published had it NOT been "against those mean ole men".

January 9, 2012

Where to begin in this conversation esp since this isn't the forum for it...

And only men who are taking it as a personal affront have seemed to responded.

The point of the post was to address that issue of gaslighting and emotional manipulation and for people to identify where it fits in their relationships and how to address that...as for the sociological discussions about sexism and racism, well we can take those discussions to another venue as they will derail this thread.

January 9, 2012

IMO, your example has nothing to do with gaslighting or passive aggressive behavior. More along the lines of venus vs mars.

I'm actually gob smacked that you would think a woman would consider your example gas lighting as it is very far removed from emotional abuse.

There may be an element of reality in the article but it's too general to be of meaning.

It's mind boggling that there are literate women who still rue the fact that their guy 'never expresses his feelings' and avoids talks about relationship issues.

Her: "i'm upset about this and i wish you'd help us resolve it:"
Him: thinking resolve what? 'Resolve what'
Her: "It meakes me feel awful when you stare at another girl's breasts'
Him: thinking, i was? "I never noticed so no need to get so sensitive about it'

BEEP...wrong answer...he's gaslighting.

The assumption is that 'he' is on the same wavelength as 'her'. Thus manipulation is not the case. It's more often lack of communication or miscommunication. Wrong assumptions.

I'd argue in many instances that many gals do the gaslighting. They try to get their guy to express their feelings but then dismiss those feelings as not correct once expressed.

January 9, 2012

Where to begin in this conversation esp since this isn't the forum for it...

And only men who are taking it as a personal affront have seemed to responded.

The point of the post was to address that issue of gaslighting and emotional manipulation and for people to identify where it fits in their relationships and how to address that...as for the sociological discussions about sexism and racism, well we can take those discussions to another venue as they will derail this thread.

Agreed.

Gaslighting sucks. And it's a form of manipulation...no disagreemant there either.

Unfortunately it seems to be a very common method, a seeming favorite method used by many to "cover their tracks" when engaging in other less wholesome pursuits.

January 9, 2012

I came across this awesome article from the Huffington post and kept exclaiming OMG sooo true! I decided to share as I'm sure many women, in As and regular relationships have experienced this kind of thing and it's not right.

I've posted the link but here are some snippets:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/yashar-hedayat/a-message-to-women-from-a_1_b_958859.html

Wow. Astute article. Describes my ex to a T & my initial reactions to his behaviour (initial because upon reflection I rejected his attempts to emotionally manipulate - read abuse - me).

Excellent post!!

January 10, 2012

Women are just as bad at this. My ex was a master at pulling the most insane crap you can imagine and making me out to be the problem when I called her out.

January 10, 2012

Women are just as bad at this. My ex was a master at pulling the most insane crap you can imagine and making me out to be the problem when I called her out.

Shouldn't you have said some women??

Certainly not ALL women nor men.

January 10, 2012

Well, to be honest both this article and your reply point out to me one of the real hallmarks of our society today...that the roles have reversed and it's ok to point the finger in the other direction today.

If a man said..."well, she WAS emotional and she should have just calmed down" in response to something along the lines of this thread...he'd be beaten down with a quickness. But...it's ok to say it's his fault because of the way women were treated in the past.

I'll be blunt...the worst racism I see today happens in the opposite direction of the standard stereotype. It's fine to call out against the white majority and say that they're to blame for (whatever it might be)...but let a member of the "majority" (btw...caucasion folks will soon become a minority in most developed countries now) say something similar and they too will be beat down for their remarks.

I don't care for either of these things to happen...in EITHER direction.

Had this article left out the gender comments and just talked about the subject directly without them...I could agree with it.

But...I doubt he would have had it published had it NOT been "against those mean ole men".

It was "a mean 'ol man" who wrote the article.

All I can say is that any time I have been told "but you shouldn't feel that way," it was a male.

January 10, 2012

It was "a mean 'ol man" who wrote the article.

All I can say is that any time I have been told "but you shouldn't feel that way," it was a male.

You are so right! When I read your post, I thought, wow same for me.

January 10, 2012

That is because both of you have only dated men. You have not experienced dating women from a man's point of view. If you did you would experience all the drama from that end.

January 10, 2012

That is because both of you have only dated men. You have not experienced dating women from a man's point of view. If you did you would experience all the drama from that end.

You missed my point Woggle, which is, NOT ALL men nor ALL women are like that. Being cruel, abusive, passive aggressive, gaslighting POS's is not exclusive to either gender, right?

January 10, 2012

Actually, I think men tend to invalidate feelings more often than women because women, generally speaking, are more in touch with their feelings than men. It isn't usually because they don't care. They just don't get it.

January 10, 2012

Actually, I think men tend to invalidate feelings more often than women because women, generally speaking, are more in touch with their feelings than men. It isn't usually because they don't care. They just don't get it.

Women are more in touch with their own feelings but not with men's. It goes the other way around as well.

January 10, 2012

Actually, I think men tend to invalidate feelings more often than women because women, generally speaking, are more in touch with their feelings than men. It isn't usually because they don't care. They just don't get it.

You said what I wanted to say. Most men are taught from a young age that feelings aren't manly or at least to show them is unmanly. You know.....that big boys don't cry thing. Feelings shared are seen as weakness by some men.

January 10, 2012

You missed my point Woggle, which is, NOT ALL men nor ALL women are like that. Being cruel, abusive, passive aggressive, gaslighting POS's is not exclusive to either gender, right?

Most people, who so happen to be men in this case, seem to miss the point. Maybe it's because I'm sociologically trained, which makes it easier for me to spot trends versus looking at individuals..but the point of the article was to discuss the societal conditioning about women and truisms that people take for granted about women...the author said so himself and even explained that it was not a conscious process on men's part....There are MANY societal myths that go untested or stereotypes that go unchecked and the author is dealing with a specific one and that is the one about women and their emotions and he is going beyond what everyone widely accepts...he even pointed out women themselves who believe this, because that is what society says...to find out what else is going on.

One point I always make here, and everywhere else, and maybe it is because I have been trained to be more attune to what doesn't seem obvious...is that the human world on both a person and psychological then communal, sociological level is built upon layers of subconscious beliefs and attitudes...and even if you are "smart" you may not notice them without deep inspection and critique. That's my job and passion though and Ali is on the money. It has nothing to do with "mean le men" but rather "mean ol societal traditions and conditioning that mean ole men lie and do without being aware of it". Likewise women also have certain general ways of behaving that is a product of the same. He gave the example of how often women will communicate by prefacing their communication with words that soften what they're saying and a friend of mine is a Linguist who has done research on this and how societally women are taught to be less assertive and one is taught to value being "nice" whereas men are taught to be more assertive and it is okay for them to be demanding.

The point quite frankly is that we have come to learn that societal patterns are real...and they are gendered and MANY of our "natural" ways of being as men and women are a product of that...and this article was highlighting it. Those who think gender plays no role anymore are as sadly mistaken as those who believe race or socioeconomic status have zero to do with the workings of the world. But thank God for those who do actually dedicate their work to doing research on those realities.

Edited January 10, 2012 by MissBee

January 10, 2012

Women are more in touch with their own feelings but not with men's. It goes the other way around as well.

I think more women try to relay feelings than men. Thus, more women are in touch with their feelings. Doesn't make women better. Just different. Men don't "get it" when women talk feelings because a man who discusses his feelings is much more rare than a woman who does.

January 10, 2012

Really awesome post MissBee and it does an splendid job at explaining the deeper workings of the article and also what makes men and women tick they way they do sometimes.

Big thumbs up!

Most people, who so happen to be men in this case, seem to miss the point. Maybe it's because I'm sociologically trained, which makes it easier for me to spot trends versus looking at individuals..but the point of the article was to discuss the societal conditioning about women and truisms that people take for granted about women...the author said so himself and even explained that it was not a conscious process on men's part....There are MANY societal myths that go untested or stereotypes that go unchecked and the author is dealing with a specific one and that is the one about women and their emotions and he is going beyond what everyone widely accepts...he even pointed out women themselves who believe this, because that is what society says...to find out what else is going on.

One point I always make here, and everywhere else, and maybe it is because I have been trained to be more attune to what doesn't seem obvious...is that the human world on both a person and psychological then communal, sociological level is built upon layers of subconscious beliefs and attitudes...and even if you are "smart" you may not notice them without deep inspection and critique. That's my job and passion though and Ali is on the money. It has nothing to do with "mean le men" but rather "mean ol societal traditions and conditioning that mean ole men lie and do without being aware of it". Likewise women also have certain general ways of behaving that is a product of the same. He gave the example of how often women will communicate by prefacing their communication with words that soften what they're saying and a friend of mine is a Linguist who has done research on this and how societally women are taught to be less assertive and one is taught to value being "nice" whereas men are taught to be more assertive and it is okay for them to be demanding.

The point quite frankly is that we have come to learn that societal patterns are real...and they are gendered and MANY of our "natural" ways of being as men and women are a product of that...and this article was highlighting it. Those who think gender plays no role anymore are as sadly mistaken as those who believe race or socioeconomic status have zero to do with the workings of the world. But thank God for those who do actually dedicate their work to doing research on those realities.

January 10, 2012

Social processes and sociology functions like societal therapy. Where individual counseling unearths the not so obvious reasons why a person behaves and chooses as he/she does...even "simple" things that seem innocent..sociology unearths why a society behaves and chooses as it does, even "simple" things that seem innocuous.

January 10, 2012

Really awesome post MissBee and it does an splendid job at explaining the deeper workings of the article and also what makes men and women tick they way they do sometimes.

Big thumbs up!

Thanks LG! Was trying to correct my typos but it was too late but glad you got the point.

I didn't want to derail the thread, as getting into those issues is a whole other topic. I simply posted it for women or even men out there to realize when they are being emotionally manipulated...consciously or subconsciously. I was hoping men could be self aware to say hmmm have I ever subconsciously done that? As I read I surely became aware of how as a woman I have been made to feel "dramatic" when truth be told I KNOW when I am being dramatic, versus being shut down because a man doesn't want to talk about something. I am sure a woman has done that at some point to me, but I know way more men who have and in the messages we'e raised around and see acted out in the media and even colloquial expressions it is more widely something women have been branded with and that men use.

I do think it takes a special man and just special people in general to glean certain insights and then reflect on it...reminds me of your drama thread. It is difficult to realize such things about yourself or society so it is a lot easier to brush it off. I applaud Ali though as one he is a man....and it's not just "crazy, dramatic, man bashing women"...which is funny...people don't know the difference between critique and criticism. EVERYTHING should be subject to critique and not because one is critical and questioning means it is bashing. A spade is a spade and you call it out and move on from there to work it out.

You get nowhere when the response to any critique is to start saying "but they do it too" or just start looking for ways to shift it around or say you're being bashed....if upon due reflection you feel it is the case..sure...but I think most men, who are not reading it critically, are going to have a knee jerk reaction of "defending " themselves...when in reality, it is nothing to defend but shedding light on a process that needs to be examined and not simply tossed away. God I'm such an academic

Edited January 10, 2012 by MissBee

January 10, 2012

I think you are an extremely smart young woman MissBee who has come to some learn some wonderful insights about yourself and what makes people tick in general. You are a gift to LS.

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