I went dutch at the end. If you were her would you date me again?

[Art_Critic]

Personally, I think that if a woman cares that much about a guy paying for her... that attitude going to carry over to many other aspects of her life.

 

I'd agree with that..

Nobody wants to get used.. although it happens..

 

I have some pretty thick skin. I mean earlier in this thread I was called a "dickhead" on multiple occasions and it really doesn't bother me at all.

 

Good point

[kaylan]

On a first date kaylan.. you are pretty high maintenance...

I am high maintenance? Do explain....Im a super low maintenance chap...I just dont hold people to standards I dont hold for myself, and I would like to date a woman who feels the same way.

It's just different opinions really.. but tell me kaylan, how happy are you about being single ?

It is different opinions.

 

And to be honest, I enjoy being single.

 

I can meet different women. I can go out and party with my friends and do as I wish. And I can focus on just my music and career.

 

Sure I long for meeting the right girl, but she'll pop up eventually. Im not in the right place in my life to be in a relationship. Singledom is a fun journey thatll lead me to the right gal.

[Queen Zenobia]

I think the issue is pretty easy to figure out. Men and women both work nowadays (except in very conservative cultures), and both are expected to be well groomed and dress well (unless of course you're a woman who's ok with dating Grizzly Adams). Given these modern realities, it really doesn't make sense that men should be expected to pay on every first date (or first couple of dates). The two parties involved should be able to go dutch without any issues.

 

To me, the expectation that a man pays on a first date simply because he is a man and you are a woman is by my definition, entitlement, and a negative one at that.

[Art_Critic]

I am high maintenance? Do explain....Im a super low maintenance chap...I just dont hold people to standards I dont hold for myself, and I would like to date a woman who feels the same way.

 

I just meant that it is a lot to put on someone on a first date to hold someone up to your own standards, you don't even know them.

 

Dating is all about finding what type of a mate you want.. or don't want but when you throw in all of the standards that a person must meet for a first date you are in essence showing an entitlement.. which is what you are trying to avoid.

JMO...

 

 

It is different opinions.

 

And to be honest, I enjoy being single.

 

I can meet different women. I can go out and party with my friends and do as I wish. And I can focus on just my music and career.

 

Sure I long for meeting the right girl, but she'll pop up eventually. Im not in the right place in my life to be in a relationship. Singledom is a fun journey thatll lead me to the right gal.

 

Love your answer... and you will find the right person some day.

[denise_xo]

I think the issue is pretty easy to figure out. Men and women both work nowadays (except in very conservative cultures), and both are expected to be well groomed and dress well (unless of course you're a woman who's ok with dating Grizzly Adams). Given these modern realities, it really doesn't make sense that men should be expected to pay on every first date (or first couple of dates). The two parties involved should be able to go dutch without any issues.

 

To me, the expectation that a man pays on a first date simply because he is a man and you are a woman is by my definition, entitlement, and a negative one at that.

 

Agreed.

 

[ten ch]

[Els]

I realise you compared men paying and leg shaving as socialized ideas, but exactly since socialization is pervasive, I don't really see the point of putting one up against the other.

 

I don't think those who react to socialization are simply 'failures' of socialization. If no one reacted to socialized behaviours, societies would come to a stand still. Human societies evolve all the time, and part of the reason for that is that the ideas we take for granted get questioned or abandoned. Questioning how we live and how we are socialized is a quite important part of life, I think.

 

Whether paying for men is a 'problem' or not - what I read on these threads is that some men are bothered by the expectation, and others aren't. Personally, I think it's a weird and outdated practice in this day and age (just as I think the expectation to shave body hairs is weird, too).

 

Therein lies one of the issues that irks many of us who skim these threads from time to time. Certain male posters perpetually complain about social expectations that are hoisted upon them solely on the basis of their gender (paying for dates, asking the girl out, etc), but on the other hand see nothing wrong with themselves perpetuating social expectations on women solely on the basis of their gender (waxed underarms and legs, long hair, very slim body, etc).

 

Their defense is usually: 1) Expectations of appearance are fine, expectations of traditionally-dictated gentlemanly behaviour isn't, or 2) They personally spend time on appearance as well. This premise fails because: 1) Social standards for maintenance of appearance are much, much higher for women than for men in most cultures, and 2) Just because socialization for women takes a different form, that does not make it any less hypocritical of them to espouse one form of socialization while railing against another.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Elswyth

[Untouchable_Fire]

I'd agree with that..

Nobody wants to get used.. although it happens..

 

Clearly this issue is a deep and emotional topic. When I was really young... like High School, I was taught that unless the guy pays... it isn't really a date. That is a really traditional thought. It's how my parents think.

 

But kids today grow up and look all around... everything we consider traditional is rapidly crumbling. I'm sure it was like that for my parents and grandparents too.

 

We are in the later stages of a massive transition regarding gender roles and traditions.

 

I am currently of the opinion that in a society where female gender roles have been radically transformed... hanging onto this one has a VERY negative net effect. Music is a reflection of our culture. When I was in college Good Charlotte put out a song called "Girls and Boys". Look at the lyrics here:

 

'Educated, with money

He's well dressed, not funny

 

And not much to say in most conversations

But he'll foot the bill in all situations

'Cause he pays for everything

 

Girls don't like boys,

Girls like cars and money

Boys will laugh at girls when they're not funny

 

Paper or plastic

Don't matter

She'll have it

Vacations and shopping sprees

These are a few of her favorite things

She'll get what she wants if she's willing to please .

This type of girl always comes with a fee,

Hey now, there's nothing for free'

 

So I ask you... What does this tradition teach most boys about women?

[denise_xo]

Therein lies one of the issues that irks many of us who skim these threads from time to time. Certain male posters perpetually complain about social expectations that are hoisted upon them solely on the basis of their gender (paying for dates, asking the girl out, etc), but on the other hand see nothing wrong with themselves perpetuating social expectations on women solely on the basis of their gender (waxed underarms and legs, long hair, very slim body, etc).

 

Their defense is usually: 1) Expectations of appearance are fine, expectations of traditionally-dictated gentlemanly behaviour isn't, or 2) They personally spend time on appearance as well. This premise fails because: 1) Social standards for maintenance of appearance are much, much higher for women than for men in most cultures, and 2) Just because socialization for women takes a different form, that does not make it any less hypocritical of them to espouse one form of socialization while railing against another.

 

Oh, I agree that all of this should go both ways. I don't expect a man to pay on first dates simply because he has a penis. He can't expect me to always do the dishes because I have a vagina.

 

As for appearance, I get your general gist (especially from a historical perspective), but I think it also depends a bit on yourself and what social groups you are part of. I never wear make up, use hair products very sparingly (and make most of them myself which is cheap), I dress in 'classic' style clothes which I can keep for a long time/buy things that go together and therefore don't have a big clothes budget, and so on. My personal experience is that the range that is available to me today is pretty wide in terms of how much money and time I have to to invest in my appearance (or not) and still appear generally acceptable in work/ social situations.

[Queen Zenobia]

Therein lies one of the issues that irks many of us who skim these threads from time to time. Certain male posters perpetually complain about social expectations that are hoisted upon them solely on the basis of their gender (paying for dates, asking the girl out, etc), but on the other hand see nothing wrong with themselves perpetuating social expectations on women solely on the basis of their gender (waxed underarms and legs, long hair, very slim body, etc).

 

Their defense is usually: 1) Expectations of appearance are fine, expectations of traditionally-dictated gentlemanly behaviour isn't, or 2) They personally spend time on appearance as well. This premise fails because: 1) Social standards for maintenance of appearance are much, much higher for women than for men in most cultures, and 2) Just because socialization for women takes a different form, that does not make it any less hypocritical of them to espouse one form of socialization while railing against another.

 

Then I suppose you're ok with dating fat men who don't shave, and who dress like slobs?

 

Fact is, appearance-wise men and women have very similar expectations. Men might like "thin" women (whatever the definition of that is), with long hair and shaved legs. But women are also generally not ok with our date showing up looking like ZZ Top, while wearing ripped jeans and a wrinkled t-shirt with mustard stains on it. So since that's about equal why do men have to pay for the privilege of our company?

[Els]

Oh, I agree that all of this should go both ways. I don't expect a man to pay on first dates simply because he has a penis. He can't expect me to always do the dishes because I have a vagina.

 

As for appearance, I get your general gist (especially from a historical perspective), but I think it also depends a bit on yourself and what social groups you are part of. I never wear make up, use hair products very sparingly (and make most of them myself which is cheap), I dress in 'classic' style clothes which I can keep for a long time/buy things that go together and therefore don't have a big clothes budget, and so on. My personal experience is that the range that is available to me today is pretty wide in terms of how much money and time I have to to invest in my appearance (or not) and still appear generally acceptable in work/ social situations.

 

Yes, I agree with all of that. What I was referring to was that those men still lust after the women who perform all of the above while berating the women who prefer men who perform traditional male roles. That, I think, is hypocrisy.

 

I definitely think we should all be doing less 'expecting' of superficial things (paying, appearance) and focusing on the person beneath instead. It just really irks me when people pick and choose as they like and expect the world to cater to them. I would say the same to a woman who absolutely refuses to ever cook for the guy but expects to be paid for, too.

 

Then I suppose you're ok with dating fat men who don't shave, and who dress like slobs?

 

Fact is, appearance-wise men and women have very similar expectations. Men might like "thin" women (whatever the definition of that is), with long hair and shaved legs. But women are also generally not ok with our date showing up looking like ZZ Top, while wearing ripped jeans and a wrinkled t-shirt with mustard stains on it. So since that's about equal why do men have to pay for the privilege of our company?

 

I don't think men -should- pay. However, I think men who don't want to pay should stop expecting women to do things for their appearance that is above and beyond what they themselves do. Men and women are expected to wear clean, neat clothes, be at a healthy weight and have presentable hair. Women in addition to that are often expected to wear makeup, their hair must be long, their clothes must flatter their shape, their skin is scrutinized more and they must be devoid of all body hair. The only appearance-based criteria that takes time, that men are 'expected' to do and women not, is to have muscle. That is not 'about equal'.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Elswyth

[donnamaybe]

I just meant that it is a lot to put on someone on a first date to hold someone up to your own standards, you don't even know them.

Yet it's okay for women to hold men to higher standards than they set for themselves, i.e., men must always pay on the first date?

[aj22one]

I don't think men -should- pay. However, I think men who don't want to pay should stop expecting women to do things for their appearance that is above and beyond what they themselves do. Men and women are expected to wear clean, neat clothes, be at a healthy weight and have presentable hair. Women in addition to that are often expected to wear makeup, their hair must be long, their clothes must flatter their shape, their skin is scrutinized more and they must be devoid of all body hair. The only appearance-based criteria that takes time, that men are 'expected' to do and women not, is to have muscle. That is not 'about equal'.

 

Who are these "men" that you speak of? I've never expected any of that. I mean sure I don't want to date a chick who has a mustache, but let's be honest, most chicks don't even like mustaches on guys.

 

The only guys I know who might be picky about a girls skin or whatever are a-holes to begin with. Trust me, you don't wanna date those guys anyway.

[kaylan]

To you, that's a fair entitlement. "Fair" is a judgement term. To me, expecting calculation --- which yours requires --- would not be a fair entitlement, for instance. I've paid for many a dinner. Probably paid for more dinners in some relationships. But anyone who wants to break things down precisely is acting from a place of selfishness and materialism, IMO. That's just an opinion, though. I don't really care how people date; that's up to them.

Im not expecting calculation.

 

My previous post can apply to anything in a relationship or friendship between two people. Its selfish to expect someone to do something for you that you wouldnt do for them. Simple. Thats it. Its unfair and unattractive.

 

If you will pay for dinner, and expect a guy to be able to as well, then you are fair. Plenty of gals are unfair though and dont act like you do. What part of my point do you not understand? Let me repeat, its selfish to ask someone to do anything that you wouldnt do for them. This is not limited to paying for dates.

 

 

So, you don't expect women to shave their legs then, right? Assuming you do not. My whole point with gender socialization is that it IS different, it still exists, and so forth. That's just. . . reality. Whether it's 'fair' or not is a value judgement. Personally, I think equality as sameness is important to a degree---in a legal and professional fashion---but if you are going to expect sameness across genders or even social circles or whatnot, you are going to be disappointed. That's just. . .true. It's not going to happen until the way we socialize people changes, and that'd be generations away, if ever. And probably never.

No I do not expect women to shave their legs. I actually went to a college with a lot of hippie girls who didnt. Some didnt shave their armpits...and no they werent all feminists.

 

Gender socialization exists, but im smart enough to look past it and not pigeonholed people to outdated gender norms. I expect a woman to be able to do everything a man can do in life, with the exception of physical feats. I tend to date women who are smart enough not to let society dictate how she should behave. Society constantly changes anyways. Masculinity and femininity seem to get molded differently over time and when you go to different regions.

 

The fact that I am able to date the way I do successfully means that time has changed enough for me already. Its still changing for the better too...so people dont get held to silly gender standards if they dont wanna. The college I went to really also helped to shape my world view of things. Meeting people from different nations shows you just how flexible things are in life.

 

 

Cool, then why be bothered by socialization if it does not affect you?

Im bothered by selfish behavior. And I am bothered by norms and behavior that trap people into doing things they dont want to. Many, many men out there do things because they are made to think theyd be less of a man if they didnt do those things. Same for women, and its all bullsh!!te.

 

If a girl doesnt wanna shave her body...then she shouldnt have to. If she wants to get "boy short" hair, she should be able to without worrying if people will call her lesbian. If a guy wants to wear eyeliner and rock out in a band, then let him go ahead. I did it once upon a time.

 

People should be unafraid to do what they want to do.

[KathyM]

When I go on dates, it wouldn't occur to me to conceptualise it as being someone's guest. You spend some time together because you are interested in getting to know each other. I think it's unreasonable that it's always the man who is expected to pick up the tab in that context. It's not 'tit for tat' to wish for a bit more equality in a dating situation which is culturally designed to always put the financial burden on the man.

Not everything in life or in dating is 100% equal. If women or people want it to be 100% equal, then women should ask men out equally for a first date, and pick up the tab, or split the tab regardless of who asks out whom. That would seem too businesslike to me, to split the tab on every date. Seems unromantic to me, but to each his own. I'm just saying, if it were me, the guy would get plenty back in return for his investment in the first date, and I wouldn't expect him to spend much or anything on the first date either.

[kaylan]

I just meant that it is a lot to put on someone on a first date to hold someone up to your own standards, you don't even know them.

Its not alot to put on someone. All I seek is someone without selfish behavior. Usually I figure out what kind of girl she is while getting to know each other the first couple weeks, and if I sense a selfish attitude she wont get a date.

Dating is all about finding what type of a mate you want.. or don't want but when you throw in all of the standards that a person must meet for a first date you are in essence showing an entitlement.. which is what you are trying to avoid.

JMO...

Im trying to avoid an unfair and selfish entitlement.

 

My entitlement is fair and standard amongst most people. No one wants to date someone they perceive as selfish. Like I said, I get to know someone and chat them up a good bit before making it to a date. I usually get a good judge of their character and then decide whether to move forward.

 

Its standard procedure really.

 

 

 

Love your answer... and you will find the right person some day.

Thanks.

[Els]

Who are these "men" that you speak of? I've never expected any of that. I mean sure I don't want to date a chick who has a mustache, but let's be honest, most chicks don't even like mustaches on guys.

 

The only guys I know who might be picky about a girls skin or whatever are a-holes to begin with. Trust me, you don't wanna date those guys anyway.

 

Definitely, I don't, and never will. I was referring only to a few of the male posters here, and explaining why their posts irk me.

[kaylan]

I think the issue is pretty easy to figure out. Men and women both work nowadays (except in very conservative cultures), and both are expected to be well groomed and dress well (unless of course you're a woman who's ok with dating Grizzly Adams). Given these modern realities, it really doesn't make sense that men should be expected to pay on every first date (or first couple of dates). The two parties involved should be able to go dutch without any issues.

 

To me, the expectation that a man pays on a first date simply because he is a man and you are a woman is by my definition, entitlement, and a negative one at that.

^This times two.

[kaylan]

Therein lies one of the issues that irks many of us who skim these threads from time to time. Certain male posters perpetually complain about social expectations that are hoisted upon them solely on the basis of their gender (paying for dates, asking the girl out, etc), but on the other hand see nothing wrong with themselves perpetuating social expectations on women solely on the basis of their gender (waxed underarms and legs, long hair, very slim body, etc).

I dont hold anyone to standards I dont hold for myself. That is how people should operate. I think gender double standards are stupid. Doesnt matter if they favor men or women.

 

If a girl doesnt want to wax. Kool. If she has short hair...cool. If shes not very slim...cool. Wouldnt stop me from being attracted to her unless she was bigger than me.

Their defense is usually: 1) Expectations of appearance are fine, expectations of traditionally-dictated gentlemanly behaviour isn't, or 2) They personally spend time on appearance as well. This premise fails because: 1) Social standards for maintenance of appearance are much, much higher for women than for men in most cultures, and 2) Just because socialization for women takes a different form, that does not make it any less hypocritical of them to espouse one form of socialization while railing against another.

Expectations of appearance are only fine if one holds themselves to the same standard. I stay fit and work out, and seek a mate who does the same. Itd be stupid to seek out a gym going girl if I was sloppy and out of shape.

 

One should only have gender expectations if they have no issue having them placed on themselves as well. Men paying on dates is based on old school times in which women didnt even have decent jobs...so I feel if a woman expects a dude to pay for dates, then she should be cool with dating a guy whod want her to quit her job and stay at home if they had kids.

 

Again I say, expectations are cool with me when someone holds themselves to the same standards.

[soserious1]

Not everything in life or in dating is 100% equal.

 

Will you feel that way after marriage, when babies come along and you're doing the bulk of the housework & childcare on top of working full time?

 

This is a new world order Kathy, women risk take by asking men they find attractive out & they pay their own bill and often also treat the man, even on first dates.

 

Oh and those same women have no problem with dieting, exercising, waxing and exhibiting porn star moves in the bed.

[kaylan]

Clearly this issue is a deep and emotional topic. When I was really young... like High School, I was taught that unless the guy pays... it isn't really a date. That is a really traditional thought. It's how my parents think.

 

But kids today grow up and look all around... everything we consider traditional is rapidly crumbling. I'm sure it was like that for my parents and grandparents too.

 

We are in the later stages of a massive transition regarding gender roles and traditions.

 

I am currently of the opinion that in a society where female gender roles have been radically transformed... hanging onto this one has a VERY negative net effect. Music is a reflection of our culture. When I was in college Good Charlotte put out a song called "Girls and Boys". Look at the lyrics here:

 

'Educated, with money

He's well dressed, not funny

 

And not much to say in most conversations

But he'll foot the bill in all situations

'Cause he pays for everything

 

Girls don't like boys,

Girls like cars and money

Boys will laugh at girls when they're not funny

 

Paper or plastic

Don't matter

She'll have it

Vacations and shopping sprees

These are a few of her favorite things

She'll get what she wants if she's willing to please .

This type of girl always comes with a fee,

Hey now, there's nothing for free'

 

So I ask you... What does this tradition teach most boys about women?

Haha I had this album. "Young and the Hopeless" was a good listen back when I was a kid. I actually went to Times Square to see Good Charlotte for a signing session during sophomore year in high school.

 

Memories lol

[denise_xo]

Not everything in life or in dating is 100% equal. If women or people want it to be 100% equal, then women should ask men out equally for a first date, and pick up the tab, or split the tab regardless of who asks out whom. That would seem too businesslike to me, to split the tab on every date. Seems unromantic to me, but to each his own. I'm just saying, if it were me, the guy would get plenty back in return for his investment in the first date, and I wouldn't expect him to spend much or anything on the first date either.

 

Well, I've never claimed that everything in life is 100% equal, but I don't see any reason to perpetuate inequalities that no longer make any sense and which are rooted in an era when women had much less or no income compared to men.

 

I don't find sharing things equally unromantic (and personally I've never felt 'romanced' by having a man pay a meal for me, although I appreciate the gesture). There's no need to split every expense to the penny, but it's the expectation that the man has to pay on the first date purely because he's a man that is just weird to me.

 

Where I live, people do split the tab and the activity is usually decided jointly. It's not a man (or woman) saying 'I'm taking you to X tomorrow' - it starts along the lines of 'how about we do x or y tomorrow, what do you think'. This gives the space for negotiating alternative activities according to everyone's interests and financial situation. I don't see anything wrong with women asking men out, either, I've approached men several times.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Not everything in life or in dating is 100% equal. If women or people want it to be 100% equal, then women should ask men out equally for a first date, and pick up the tab, or split the tab regardless of who asks out whom. That would seem too businesslike to me, to split the tab on every date. Seems unromantic to me, but to each his own. I'm just saying, if it were me, the guy would get plenty back in return for his investment in the first date, and I wouldn't expect him to spend much or anything on the first date either.

 

I assume you don't do business meetings over food very often.

 

I go on 2-3 business lunches/dinners per week. I have never seen someone try to split a check unless there are several companies working together to woo the customer.

 

Your definition of romantic is deeply personal and completely up to you. Just bear in mind that when you rely on Hollywood to define your ideal it's not going to be very grounded in reality.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Therein lies one of the issues that irks many of us who skim these threads from time to time. Certain male posters perpetually complain about social expectations that are hoisted upon them solely on the basis of their gender (paying for dates, asking the girl out, etc), but on the other hand see nothing wrong with themselves perpetuating social expectations on women solely on the basis of their gender (waxed underarms and legs, long hair, very slim body, etc).

 

Their defense is usually: 1) Expectations of appearance are fine, expectations of traditionally-dictated gentlemanly behaviour isn't, or 2) They personally spend time on appearance as well. This premise fails because: 1) Social standards for maintenance of appearance are much, much higher for women than for men in most cultures, and 2) Just because socialization for women takes a different form, that does not make it any less hypocritical of them to espouse one form of socialization while railing against another.

 

It's a good point. I always think back to all the agism threads that pop up around here about how much more worthless women are as they get older, or fat "women" threads (very few women here ever post about being angry about fat men), or all the dozen pieces of advice I see men around here 'offer" about a woman making sure to work out and keep in shape.

 

I know that when I go out in public and I just go out in old clothes to run errands vs when I take time with my clothes and make up, there is a significant difference in how men specifically treat me.

[Woggle]

If a man just wants sex a woman can say no or yes and any decent man will respect that. When I was in a period in my life when I just wanted sex if a woman wanted more I told her I was not the man for her.

 

Of course a man should expect something before he takes a risk or gives too much. In any negotiation some sort of down payment is expected. You need to do it when buying a house or a car so why should relationships be any different.

[Untouchable_Fire]

It's a good point. I always think back to all the agism threads that pop up around here about how much more worthless women are as they get older, or fat "women" threads (very few women here ever post about being angry about fat men), or all the dozen pieces of advice I see men around here 'offer" about a woman making sure to work out and keep in shape.

I know that when I go out in public and I just go out in old clothes to run errands vs when I take time with my clothes and make up, there is a significant difference in how men specifically treat me.

 

I don't think those guys are any more correct about women who are bigger or older than the women who want payment for dates.

 

My sister is a bigger girl... and her BF is tall, skinny, and handsome. I see that a lot in real life. Some guys bitch about it... but they are just being jerks. I don't think one attitude makes the other one right.

 

I'm just guessing here, but I think you have had some really bad experiences with men. I know this doesn't mean much... but I'm sorry for that. If I could do something to change your negative experiences I would. You seem like a really nice person deep down.