spiderowl Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Upon reading this, I felt you had little empathy for this girl and was just seeing her as some sort of score. You note she does what you want most of the time and doesn't cost you anything so that makes her OK in your book. You seem to view her remotely as a thing, as one would look at a car. At a guess, I would say she's wondering where this relationship is going. It has become sexual, which probably means something to her like it's time for fidelity and some sort of commitment. From your point of view, you just seem to be counting how many dates it took to get sex and how awkward it is she's refusing now. She's worked out that you want sex from her and don't appear to be addressing her needs as a person. She's probably thinking that's all you want and she's decided it's not all she wants! I'd like to think that if you talked with her about fidelity and commitment and told her how much you cared about her (and meant it), then things would be alright, but I have a feeling you don't feel any of those things towards her. You seriously need to demonstrate your commitment and care for her and talk to her about your feelings and about hers. If you are unable to do that because you don't care really, then she's going to do what any wise woman would do and opt out of a relationship that is not going to be emotionally fulfilling.
zlatnapolja Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Been seeing a 22 year old college girl for a few months now. Met her on a day game cold approach on campus. We've been out on six dates. We usually see each other every other week on a Friday/Saturday night - I pick her up from her home, we head out for dinner/dessert/bar/club, and then have a few drinks back at my place, watch some DVDs and have sex. Had sex on 3rd, 4th, and 5th date. Prior to last night, the last time we hung out was a week ago when my buddy was having a farewell party and I introduced her to some of my friends. Last night we go out for dinner and dessert. Come back to my place to watch TV. After the show's done she pulls the classic "I'm not having sex tonight, I'm not in the mood". When I ask her why she says "I don't know." This throws me for a loop as in the past she's always been DTF with no LMR. I take this for token LMR, so I put on some Bossa Nova music, kiss her for a bit and a few songs we both have our tops off. I pick her up, move her to the bedroom and throw her onto my bed. As I kiss her and move towards taking her pants off she says "no, not having sex." I told her I wasn't going to force her into doing something she wanted to do, but if there's something she wanted to say then let it out. She said she wasn't good at expressing her feelings and remained mum. So I didn't push it any further, just stroked her for a bit and she cuddled next to me, and later we got up and I drove her home. What's happening here? This girl is an interesting case. She's easygoing and pleasant and generally down for anything I want to do. We almost always split the bill so I'm not spending money on her. When I call her (usually once a week), she always picks up, we have a conversation and when I propose a date she's always down - never flakes. Yet she never initiates texts or phone calls herself. I get that she's a bit of an introvert, maybe a little socially awkward and lives at home with her parents - but cute nonetheless. She's also very restrained about showing physical affection, even while making out. Yet she's always down for anything I say or do, and when I initiate physical contact she never resists. Last night was the first time she showed any objection to sex. I'm not sure what to make of all this. Thoughts? So the only times that you do see her, you have sex? She might want you to see another sight of her and vica versa.. Woman need different kinds of stimulances, not just sex. I dont know, but could be
Feelsgoodman Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 OP: Please hear me. I am always picking on you because I am so embarrassed and horrified by your absolute devotion to all things PUA. Can you let go of all of that for a while and just be a normal guy, getting to know a girl who you evidently like? The girl is functioning as a "FWB" with you (or as you term it, she is your "source" for "punani"). The sex is not satisfying or probably even enjoyable for her. How come you think she "likes it rough," anyway? You've said that she is not comfortable discussing such things, and the two of you barely know each other. Besides the sub-par sex, you guys are not going anywhere with your relationship. If she has basic intuition, she has GOT to have the sense that there is something not quite right about the thing you two have going. But, she evidently must like you, or she would not waste her time with you or continue to endure the unpleasant sex. If your only goal is to maintain your "source," you better get busy figuring out how to make yourself a good source of pleasure for her. If you like her and want to have more than an FWB deal with her, it's probably time to be brave and go for it. I literally laughed out loud when I was reading this . I can only imagine Mme Chaucer, who I'm guessing is in her 60s, reading PUA websites (only God knows for what purpose...knowing your enemy, perhaps?) and researching the meaning of words like "poonani". Chaucer, you really should stop reading that stuff...Aside from the sheer hilarity of an older woman frequenting sites meant for teenage Don Juan wannabes, it's not very healthy either. Now I understand why you are always so bitter and mistrustful of men. You must think that every man is secretly a PUA trying F-close you or something. Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about becoming of a victim of a PUA. I doubt there many men of your generation who are even familiar with the term.
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 One doesn't have to read PUA websites (heaven forbid!) to know that this is where the OP is coming from. I mean, "day game cold approach"? Really? Also, I noticed that one of his threads was an exact re-post of a thread that had been here months ago, so I Googled it and found that our OP here cross posts most of his threads on multiple sites, all of them except this one "PUA" sites. Which, you are right - I would not have known about if it weren't for some of the threads here on LS. Feelsgoodman, I am interested in knowing why you think I am bitter and mistrustful of men. I'm not, and I doubt I've posted much, if anything here that could be construed that way. I mean, I certainly dislike and mistrust SOME men. Don't you?
Feelsgoodman Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Feelsgoodman, I am interested in knowing why you think I am bitter and mistrustful of men. I'm not, and I doubt I've posted much, if anything here that could be construed that way. Well, that is certainly a matter of opinion The way you write, the way you attack male posters who don't agree with you, the way you jump on every male-bashing bandwagon...all of that comes across as rather...spiteful.
kaylan Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 OP...drop the PUA crap. Seriously. As someone who had that over analytical and misguided stuff brainwash me for a little while in the past, I can tell you this... You will do a lot better with women when you drop these unproven theories and all the mental masturbation it causes. Being with a woman does not take this much thought. Focus on having fun with her, not constantly worrying about how you will lose her and ways to prevent it. Check this out. http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/2011/03/damaging-community-concepts.html Read some of the things on that site...everything will make more sense afterwards. After seeing how PUA thinking just stifled my emotions and success with women, I gave the stuff up after a couple months. All that over thinking and negativity wasnt healthy.
xpaperxcutx Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Why are you guys always going dutch? Why are you guys always going back to your place? Why is she always doing exactly what you wanted? If I were her, I would've bailed after the second date- she sounds like a booty call to you than a actual girl worthy of dating.
Dust Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Been seeing a 22 year old college girl for a few months now. Met her on a day game cold approach on campus. We've been out on six dates. Dude drop the PUA talk. The stuff can be an entertaining read and all but you seem brain washed. I don't have all the facts becuase you wrote in code but you should have wrote something like the following... Been seing a 22 year old girl. I met her on my college campus and we've been on 6 dates now. Like I said PUA stuff can be an entertaining read. But you sound way to into if you're going to be saying cold Approach and day game. The cold approach and day game have been going on for ever don't buy into the PUA crap like they invented flirting and the theory of evolution etc. We usually see each other every other week on a Friday/Saturday night - I pick her up from her home' date=' we head out for dinner/dessert/bar/club, and then have a few drinks back at my place, watch some DVDs and have sex. Had sex on 3rd, 4th, and 5th date. Prior to last night, the last time we hung out was a week ago when my buddy was having a farewell party and I introduced her to some of my friends. [/quote'] That all sounds nice. Heck I didn't even spot any PUA talk congrats! So far my only thoughts are that maybe she wants to see you more then every other week. If that doesn't work for you and that is her issue maybe she will eventualy dump you or nag you till you dump her... Last night we go out for dinner and dessert. Come back to my place to watch TV. After the show's done she pulls the classic "I'm not having sex tonight' date=' I'm not in the mood". When I ask her why she says "I don't know." This throws me for a loop as in the past she's always been DTF with no LMR.[/quote'] Ah yes more PUA talk LMR... Why would a girl saying no for sex and not giving a reason throw you for a loop? Girls rarely give reasons you always have to figure it out. Girls rarely if ever lay the reason for no sex out like a math problem. The only answers you'll usualy ever get is "I'm tired, I have a head ache/sick, or I'm on my period." These are often lies. You need to think if there is any other reason. Also some girls really don't like sex. If you are out of your honey moon period or never really entered one this might be what your in for. You may have done something to upset her real or imagined. If its something you would like to change when you figure it out great. If its something like seeing eachother more often and that is a no can do for you then oh well. I take this for token LMR, so I put on some Bossa Nova music, kiss her for a bit and a few songs we both have our tops off. I pick her up, move her to the bedroom and throw her onto my bed. As I kiss her and move towards taking her pants off she says "no, not having sex." I told her I wasn't going to force her into doing something she wanted to do, but if there's something she wanted to say then let it out. She said she wasn't good at expressing her feelings and remained mum. So I didn't push it any further, just stroked her for a bit and she cuddled next to me, and later we got up and I drove her home. What's happening here? This girl is an interesting case. She's easygoing and pleasant and generally down for anything I want to do. We almost always split the bill so I'm not spending money on her. When I call her (usually once a week), she always picks up, we have a conversation and when I propose a date she's always down - never flakes. Yet she never initiates texts or phone calls herself. I get that she's a bit of an introvert, maybe a little socially awkward and lives at home with her parents - but cute nonetheless. She's also very restrained about showing physical affection, even while making out. Yet she's always down for anything I say or do, and when I initiate physical contact she never resists. Last night was the first time she showed any objection to sex. I'm not sure what to make of all this. Thoughts? My thoughts is she wants more comitment. Really it could be anything. If I really like a girl I'd want to see her more then every other week. Are you guys just both so busy it only works out that way? Maybe she wants you say that you guys are bf/gf... Look bottom line we can't figure this out for you and the PUA boards won't help you to much. Just talk to the girl. It doesn't have to be talks about feelings. Just be genuine with her and if you feel she isn't being genuine with you then leave her. The only thing I can think of is that your date routine is probably getting stale. You go out, you watch TV, and then you have sex. Monotony gets... monotonous. There's no romance and fun here. It's the same old same old. Take her out to do something different -- different place, different day, different time, different vibe. I bet you $100 that if you mix it up a little, she'll be jumping on you later. He said they were mixing it up. He even introduced her to his friends at a going away party for his other friend. Why are you guys always going dutch? Why are you guys always going back to your place? Why is she always doing exactly what you wanted? If I were her, I would've bailed after the second date- she sounds like a booty call to you than a actual girl worthy of dating. Well whats wrong with going dutch for all we know she's older then him we already know she probably doesn't pay rent living at home... which brings up the reason they go to his place she lives at home... He said they went out and did things even a party. Other then his PUA talk I see nothing wrong with the guy. The PUA talk though leads me to believe he could be deeply troubled. But the details of the dates had nothing wrong. Going dutch is fine and wanting to have sex is healthy!
xpaperxcutx Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 \Well whats wrong with going dutch for all we know she's older then him we already know she probably doesn't pay rent living at home... which brings up the reason they go to his place she lives at home... He said they went out and did things even a party. Other then his PUA talk I see nothing wrong with the guy. The PUA talk though leads me to believe he could be deeply troubled. But the details of the dates had nothing wrong. Going dutch is fine and wanting to have sex is healthy! There's nothing wrong with it, but from his post I'm getting the impression he expects her to pay for herself everytime. Also there's nothing wrong with having sex, it's the fact that he's complaining about her not wanting sex that comes off as controlling. It's almost like " Tarzan wants sex, Jane must have sex with Tarzan" kind of scenario. Of course, he did write he wasn't going to force her to do anything she doesn't want, but didn't also tried to coerce her into it after she had said no?
Dust Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 There's nothing wrong with it, but from his post I'm getting the impression he expects her to pay for herself everytime. Also there's nothing wrong with having sex, it's the fact that he's complaining about her not wanting sex that comes off as controlling. It's almost like " Tarzan wants sex, Jane must have sex with Tarzan" kind of scenario. Of course, he did write he wasn't going to force her to do anything she doesn't want, but didn't also tried to coerce her into it after she had said no? Any guy would be frustrated with this situation. He justs wants to know why. He gives her drinks and food for all we know back at his place. He doesn't get to go over to her place. His place probably costs atleast $500 if not much more a month. I don't think he owes it to her to buy her stuff. I think when valentines day comes around if they are still dating he should just do the romantic thing and pay for dinner... but she also kind of owes it to him to get some kind of present for him! Don't bad mouth Tarzan either he kicks but! He tried to have sex with her even though she said she wasn't in the mood. He added in he wasn't forcing her so we didn't get the wrong idea this being the internet. Nothing wrong with trying to overcome a rejection, I saw no evidence of coercion in his writing. I actually get anoyed when women start this coercion crap nonesense... Yes there are rapist etc out there, stop making the 99% of us who arn't rapist pay for it. A guy who truely coerces women wouldn't admit it anyways and your criticisms would be falliing on death ears. I doubt he'd be here asking why in such a way either.
xpaperxcutx Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Any guy would be frustrated with this situation. He justs wants to know why. He gives her drinks and food for all we know back at his place. He doesn't get to go over to her place. His place probably costs atleast $500 if not much more a month. I don't think he owes it to her to buy her stuff. I think when valentines day comes around if they are still dating he should just do the romantic thing and pay for dinner... but she also kind of owes it to him to get some kind of present for him! Don't bad mouth Tarzan either he kicks but! He tried to have sex with her even though she said she wasn't in the mood. He added in he wasn't forcing her so we didn't get the wrong idea this being the internet. Nothing wrong with trying to overcome a rejection, I saw no evidence of coercion in his writing. I actually get anoyed when women start this coercion crap nonesense... Yes there are rapist etc out there, stop making the 99% of us who arn't rapist pay for it. A guy who truely coerces women wouldn't admit it anyways and your criticisms would be falliing on death ears. I doubt he'd be here asking why in such a way either. Talking to you is really like talking to 'dust'. Seriously? When does " I'm not in the mood for sex' equate to throwing someone on the bed and proceeding to fondling them? I'm not accusing him of anything ( rapist? now you're just putting words into my mouth) except calling out his selfishness. Just because they had sex the last couple of dates does not automatically mean every date would mean sex. The OP is only crying foul because he expected it and she wasn't giving it up. Nothing to analyze- she really just wasn't in the mood.
NoMagicBullet Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 This is what's really going on: Upon reading this, I felt you had little empathy for this girl and was just seeing her as some sort of score. You note she does what you want most of the time and doesn't cost you anything so that makes her OK in your book. You seem to view her remotely as a thing, as one would look at a car. At a guess, I would say she's wondering where this relationship is going. It has become sexual, which probably means something to her like it's time for fidelity and some sort of commitment. From your point of view, you just seem to be counting how many dates it took to get sex and how awkward it is she's refusing now. She's worked out that you want sex from her and don't appear to be addressing her needs as a person. She's probably thinking that's all you want and she's decided it's not all she wants! I'd like to think that if you talked with her about fidelity and commitment and told her how much you cared about her (and meant it), then things would be alright, but I have a feeling you don't feel any of those things towards her. You seriously need to demonstrate your commitment and care for her and talk to her about your feelings and about hers. If you are unable to do that because you don't care really, then she's going to do what any wise woman would do and opt out of a relationship that is not going to be emotionally fulfilling. This girl probably likes you -- or perhaps liked you (past tense) -- but is realizing that all you want is sex. You have a routine that goes: dinner, split the bill, watch TV and have sex. You call her once a week. You aren't really dating her, you're just hooking up. You aren't showing any more interest in romance now that you've had her, and she's feeling used. If you want to see if you can have a relationship with the girl, forget the PUA crap and try calling her more often and planning different dating activities that don't always end in sex. If all you want is the sex, well... that's going to go away soon, because she's figured out you're only a player and you don't really give a damn about her.
Dust Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Talking to you is really like talking to 'dust'. Seriously? When does " I'm not in the mood for sex' equate to throwing someone on the bed and proceeding to fondling them? I'm not accusing him of anything ( rapist? now you're just putting words into my mouth) except calling out his selfishness. Just because they had sex the last couple of dates does not automatically mean every date would mean sex. The OP is only crying foul because he expected it and she wasn't giving it up. Nothing to analyze- she really just wasn't in the mood. Talking to you is really is a lot like a paper cut, anoying at the time but rather forgetable. Nothing to analyze? People are saying everything from you don't do enough stuff togather too maybe she was having a period.
xpaperxcutx Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Talking to you is really is a lot like a paper cut, anoying at the time but rather forgetable. Nothing to analyze? People are saying everything from you don't do enough stuff togather too maybe she was having a period. NOthing to obsessively analyze about.
kaylan Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Talking to you is really like talking to 'dust'. Seriously? When does " I'm not in the mood for sex' equate to throwing someone on the bed and proceeding to fondling them? I'm not accusing him of anything ( rapist? now you're just putting words into my mouth) except calling out his selfishness. Just because they had sex the last couple of dates does not automatically mean every date would mean sex. The OP is only crying foul because he expected it and she wasn't giving it up. Nothing to analyze- she really just wasn't in the mood. This is what's really going on: This girl probably likes you -- or perhaps liked you (past tense) -- but is realizing that all you want is sex. You have a routine that goes: dinner, split the bill, watch TV and have sex. You call her once a week. You aren't really dating her, you're just hooking up. You aren't showing any more interest in romance now that you've had her, and she's feeling used. If you want to see if you can have a relationship with the girl, forget the PUA crap and try calling her more often and planning different dating activities that don't always end in sex. If all you want is the sex, well... that's going to go away soon, because she's figured out you're only a player and you don't really give a damn about her.Both of these posts are on the money OP. Be an adult and have an open discussion with this girl about what you both want and be honest with her. If she doesnt want to just have sex, then grow up and move on. No one has a "right" to sex unless they are in an exclusive relationship with someone. And even then, sex is a mutual decision. Once you learn that, things will be clearer. And like Dust said,...drop the PUA stuff.
Emilia Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 You haven't built any intimacy with her OP, she is either losing interest or she is thinking you only want her for sex. Either way, this will fade if you don't step up your efforts.
AlexDP Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Been seeing a 22 year old college girl for a few months now. Met her on a day game cold approach on campus. We've been out on six dates. We usually see each other every other week on a Friday/Saturday night - I pick her up from her home, we head out for dinner/dessert/bar/club, and then have a few drinks back at my place, watch some DVDs and have sex. Had sex on 3rd, 4th, and 5th date. Prior to last night, the last time we hung out was a week ago when my buddy was having a farewell party and I introduced her to some of my friends. Last night we go out for dinner and dessert. Come back to my place to watch TV. After the show's done she pulls the classic "I'm not having sex tonight, I'm not in the mood". When I ask her why she says "I don't know." This throws me for a loop as in the past she's always been DTF with no LMR. I take this for token LMR, so I put on some Bossa Nova music, kiss her for a bit and a few songs we both have our tops off. I pick her up, move her to the bedroom and throw her onto my bed. As I kiss her and move towards taking her pants off she says "no, not having sex." I told her I wasn't going to force her into doing something she wanted to do, but if there's something she wanted to say then let it out. She said she wasn't good at expressing her feelings and remained mum. So I didn't push it any further, just stroked her for a bit and she cuddled next to me, and later we got up and I drove her home. What's happening here? This girl is an interesting case. She's easygoing and pleasant and generally down for anything I want to do. We almost always split the bill so I'm not spending money on her. When I call her (usually once a week), she always picks up, we have a conversation and when I propose a date she's always down - never flakes. Yet she never initiates texts or phone calls herself. I get that she's a bit of an introvert, maybe a little socially awkward and lives at home with her parents - but cute nonetheless. She's also very restrained about showing physical affection, even while making out. Yet she's always down for anything I say or do, and when I initiate physical contact she never resists. Last night was the first time she showed any objection to sex. I'm not sure what to make of all this. Thoughts? http://www.loveshack.org/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3795256 http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=141199831 http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=190862 My bet? It's because you're a creep.
Emilia Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 http://www.loveshack.org/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3795256 http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=141199831 http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=190862 My bet? It's because you're a creep. Welcome back!
xxoo Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 It is likely that whatever attracted her to you initially (excitement?) is wearing thin. I'm not surprised she is tight-lipped about it. It doesn't sound like there is a closeness here, outside of sex, where she would feel comfortable opening up to you. As others have said--if you like this girl, and want to develop the relationship, drop the PUA crap and open up to her. Properly court her If you are just interested in sex with her, that's likely run its course.
Author spinaroonie Posted January 9, 2012 Author Posted January 9, 2012 This is what's really going on: This girl probably likes you -- or perhaps liked you (past tense) -- but is realizing that all you want is sex. You have a routine that goes: dinner, split the bill, watch TV and have sex. You call her once a week. You aren't really dating her, you're just hooking up. You aren't showing any more interest in romance now that you've had her, and she's feeling used. If you want to see if you can have a relationship with the girl, forget the PUA crap and try calling her more often and planning different dating activities that don't always end in sex. If all you want is the sex, well... that's going to go away soon, because she's figured out you're only a player and you don't really give a damn about her. What part of calling her once a week, chatting on the phone for a half hour and taking a genuine interest in her, setting up a date, picking her up from her home, taking her out to eat at places she's never sampled and asking about her life, splitting the bill (because we believe in equality and she's cool with it), introducing her to my friends at a party, splitting a bottle of wine back at my place and watching shows we both enjoy, making love, and dropping her off back at her home would make her feel like a booty call? Ya if I was just a player that didn't care about her I would have hit and quit it and moved on 2 months ago. Ideally I'd see her more often but I work 9 to 5 and out of town most weekends. If she wants to do something on her terms that's fine - she can pick up the phone and call or text me and set something up - I'd be more than happy to oblige. So far I've been doing all the initiating/calling and setting up the dates - which is fine as she's always down. If she's bored she should articulate what's on her mind and I've encouraged her to so. If she remains passive and tight-lipped there's isn't much else I can do, I'm not a mind-reader. I view sex as a mutually pleasurable activity between two partners who are attracted to and like each other - without or within the confines of an exclusive relationship. If some women view sex as something to be bartered in exchange for free meals or resources I think that says about the moral fibre of these women.
xxoo Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 What part of calling her once a week, chatting on the phone for a half hour and taking a genuine interest in her, setting up a date, picking her up from her home, taking her out to eat at places she's never sampled and asking about her life, splitting the bill (because we believe in equality and she's cool with it), introducing her to my friends at a party, splitting a bottle of wine back at my place and watching shows we both enjoy, making love, and dropping her off back at her home would make her feel like a booty call? Calling only once a week seems like very little interest, from this woman's perspective. Just like you, she's probably been brainwashed to act a certain way to keep a man's interest. She's probably been taught to let the guy pursue. When a guy only calls you once a week, that indicates a fairly low level of interest.
Author spinaroonie Posted January 9, 2012 Author Posted January 9, 2012 Calling only once a week seems like very little interest, from this woman's perspective. Just like you, she's probably been brainwashed to act a certain way to keep a man's interest. She's probably been taught to let the guy pursue. When a guy only calls you once a week, that indicates a fairly low level of interest. Or she could just call/text me. When a guy only calls you once a week, that indicates a fairly low level of interest. Let's flip the script. When a girl never calls you, that indicates a fairly low level of interest.
xxoo Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Or she could just call/text me. Let's flip the script. When a girl never calls you, that indicates a fairily low level of interest. Maybe. But when a girl has sex with you, that indicates a fairly high level of interest. She probably won't pursue you. She may respond well (renewed interest) if you pursue her.
carhill Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 So, end things politely and in person and move on. When a girl never calls you, that indicates a fairly low level of interest. I would have been gone a long time ago.
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 I would have been gone a long time ago. But this OP shows a very strong interest in calling every shot and having the girl do exactly what he wants her to do. So, he is probably connecting with a type who is not likely to take initiative.
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