Where are all the upset women online?

[kaylan]

Ok I have been wondering about this for a while. And I was not sure if I was not finding my answer because of my choice in forums...but I ask this:

 

1. Where are all the upset ladies at? They must exist online if there are so many guys online who are bitter about the state of male-female interactions, right? Why are so many more guys complaining than women?

2. Why are guys I meet in the real world never upset or bitter about this stuff? I sometimes think how guys feel on this board and some other boards is common, but I never encounter these dudes in real life.

 

3. I see it as "you make the most of yourself and your situations"...But then again, maybe I do have it easier than a lot of guys...but I consider myself an average fellow anyways. Is the average guy really not doing well in his dating life?

 

Answer me these questions. Not in super duper length though. I really do wonder about this. Between the PUA community, a few different dating advice forums, and these MRM blogs popping up all over the place....I truly wonder about whats going on between men and women.

 

I am just an average dude and never really have had to many complaints about my dating life. I have my times where I hate the fact that I havent found great love yet, but I get by and have my fun. I mean I do have my droughts, but they are usually a bit intentional due to lack of effort, so I have a hard time relating to some men here.

 

And its just that the guys I hang with tend to not have much trouble getting attention either...so I guess Im trying to understand where the disconnect comes from. And also I wonder just how many girls go through this...or if this is just some online phenomenon, where its only a small subset of people with these attitudes.

 

Let me know. Focus on the bolded questions.

Edited January 7, 2012 by kaylan

[misssmartypants]

I think that pua websites are probably not the place to meet men who have healthy feelings towards women. This board has a bunch of male users that keep negative threads about women going or turn threads in that dirction I'm not saying its a conspiracy. It's just how the regular posters work. So the thread from heart broken women fall to the second or third page.

 

I also think that people are more honest about how they feel online. In day to day life these guys who hate women or feel that they aren't getting a fair chance are t goi g to say it. I know that my boyfriend telling me he didnt want to see me anymore made me feel like crawling into bed and not getting out. But I couldn't. I went to work. I did my makeup and hair so I'd look decent. I chatted with coworkers and was patient with students because life continues.

 

 

Now if you happened to be in the break room the other day you would have heard three women lamenting the dating scene. No age appropriate men to be found. They lack basic hygene skills. They don't have a job.

 

 

Women just don't complain online like the guys here do.

[carhill]

1. Where are all the upset ladies at?

 

Those would be the ones who blow up my phone in the middle of the night. A few LS'ers have done that.

 

2. Why are guys I meet in the real world never upset or bitter about this stuff?

 

Because you're 'meeting' them. You don't 'know' them. Few men will admit anything which approaches weakness with people other than their closest male friends, and often not even then.

 

Is the average guy really not doing well in his dating life?

 

I have no idea. Amongst my single male friends, it's a mixed bag. I've chosen not to date since getting divorced so my data point is irrelevant.

[jobaba]

1. Where are all the upset ladies at? They must exist online if there are so many guys online who are bitter about the state of male-female interactions, right? Why are so many more guys complaining than women?

2. Why are guys I meet in the real world never upset or bitter about this stuff? I sometimes think how guys feel on this board and some other boards is common, but I never encounter these dudes in real life.

 

3. I see it as "you make the most of yourself and your situations"...But then again, maybe I do have it easier than a lot of guys...but I consider myself an average fellow anyways. Is the average guy really not doing well in his dating life?

 

 

I know you want a female perspective, but I was just thinking about this very thing this morning. Here's my perspective.

 

Women generally have just as much trouble in relationships as men. But in general, they get rejected way less. I know we just had a thread about this, but many of the women posted they hadn't been rejected since high school or earlier.

 

Therefore, they're less prone to being bitter, which is caused by not just being passed up, but having little or no options otherwise. Most women have at least options. Whether they desire those options is a different story.

 

One thing I've noticed is that the more successful guys on this forum (namely YOU and Pizzaman) think more like women. It seems you guys have many options to choose from, pass up women regularly (either in a sex sense or relationship sense), and really don't face that much rejection because you have desirable options to choose from, so you aren't as prone to as much bitterness. You guys are picky and also rely on emotional indicators (butterflies, etc) because you haven't been burned as much.

 

On the other hand, women who have been burned many times and are undesirable (at least in their own head) think more like men. Verzhn thinks more like a dude. She thinks guys are only into looks, THINKS that she's ugly and that guys suck. Typical dude mentality, especially the 'ugly' part.

 

See ... bitterness is a phase. If you go through a period where you're getting rejected and NOBODY wants you to counteract that, voila, you're bitter. Once the guys on here forget about their most recent disastrous rejections (applicable to me) and find somebody who likes them, the bitterness will fade. If you met me in real life, you wouldn't think I was bitter. People vent on online forums because they're anonymous.

[FitChick]

I know plenty of bitter women. As for not being rejected, men generally act so abominably (or cluelessly) that the women dump them, so the women become "b1tches" and the men victims. Some of the most desirable women in the world have been dumped and cheated on. It isn't the exclusive domain of one sex.

[veggirl]

There are women here every single day posting complaints/questions about guys. The thread above this was about a guy who left the girl for his ex and the OP is still considering being with him.

 

In general, I've found women more likely to put up with BS than men. Like the example I just listed. So they will come and complain about it, and then in the next breath find a way to defend the man doing them wrong. A lot of women put up with very sh*tty behavior from men, but I guess more quietly.

[kaylan]

I know you want a female perspective, but I was just thinking about this very thing this morning. Here's my perspective.

 

Women generally have just as much trouble in relationships as men. But in general, they get rejected way less. I know we just had a thread about this, but many of the women posted they hadn't been rejected since high school or earlier.

I agree, but I think women get rejected less because some guys just want sex or are settling for any attention.

 

When it comes down to being relationship material, I feel women get rejected just as much. It seems guys are as picky about relationships, as women are about sex. This is just a general statement though.

Therefore, they're less prone to being bitter, which is caused by not just being passed up, but having little or no options otherwise. Most women have at least options. Whether they desire those options is a different story.

Do you really think guys have zero options? I mean Im sure average dudes have options, just prolly not with girls they want.

 

I have a couple options right now. One for a relationships and the other for frisky time. But I chose not to do anything with the first one since I dont see long term potential and dont wanna lead her on. And the second girl...well, despite being a tad horny, she has a reputation and Im paranoid about keeping my health clean.

 

Im sure my situation isnt rare. If an average guy is social enough he can have a couple options.

One thing I've noticed is that the more successful guys on this forum (namely YOU and Pizzaman) think more like women. It seems you guys have many options to choose from, pass up women regularly (either in a sex sense or relationship sense), and really don't face that much rejection because you have desirable options to choose from, so you aren't as prone to as much bitterness. You guys are picky and also rely on emotional indicators (butterflies, etc) because you haven't been burned as much.

Naaaaah dont flatter me bro. I do ok, but im no Johnny Depp. Pizzaman is far more out there and successful than me from what I read in his posts.

 

I dont have many options. Just a few here and there. Also, remember I just graduated college a few months ago. College atmosphere makes it easy to meet many different girls, and the bar/club scene in college adds to that. I still visit there every few weeks, but meeting women is harder once you leave school. It takes more effort and things have slowed down. Especially since Im living in an area I didnt grow up in. So im still meeting new people and trying to create a friend group.

 

Trust me I have been burned. I just am easy going about it after I let the hurt out. I try and be positive and know there is better women out there. If I am bitter, which I have had small phases of, it really holds me back. Its better to be optimistic and care free. People feel that energy and are drawn to you. But youre right about being in tune with emotions...it does help.

On the other hand, women who have been burned many times and are undesirable (at least in their own head) think more like men. Verzhn thinks more like a dude. She thinks guys are only into looks, THINKS that she's ugly and that guys suck. Typical dude mentality, especially the 'ugly' part.

 

See ... bitterness is a phase. If you go through a period where you're getting rejected and NOBODY wants you to counteract that, voila, you're bitter. Once the guys on here forget about their most recent disastrous rejections (applicable to me) and find somebody who likes them, the bitterness will fade. If you met me in real life, you wouldn't think I was bitter. People vent on online forums because they're anonymous.

Verzhn I would totally have some fun times with if she lived in NY. I really dont know whats with the guys around her. She seems like youre fun dorky tech girl. I know plenty of guys who would go for her.

 

Youre right about anonymous venting and bitter being a phase. I just try and be even keeled about things. Even when I was bitter for a little and on other forums, I avoided putting women all under one bad brush. But I guess people need their venting time every now and again.

[Taramere]

Answer me these questions. Not in super duper length though. I really do wonder about this. Between the PUA community, a few different dating advice forums, and these MRM blogs popping up all over the place....I truly wonder about whats going on between men and women.

I've seen those PUA and MRM forums and blogs (there seems to be some overlap between the two). I think a huge amount of posturing and winding up of men by men goes on on them.

 

For instance, one claim I've seen several times is that it's common practice for women to go out on a date with a man who will pay for her meal...then the woman will finish the date and go off and blow some other man.

 

I mean, for crying out loud. I'm sure there are instances of such behaviour occurring. All sorts of weird, wonderful and just plain sad human behaviour happens in life. However I really doubt women being treated by a meal to man A and then going round to man B's house to blow him is a common phenomenon.

 

That kind of paranoia-promoting "here's a big secret about women" crap is probably just the bastard offspring of bad porn mated with conspiracy theory sites....both of which, I get the distinct impression, are popular with a lot of the people who post on those PUA and MRM sites.

 

Then some of it spills out on sites like this that are popular with female posters, when guys who've read way too much crap on these PUA/MRM sites want to hold women to account for the crimes we haven't actually committed.

[ThaWholigan]

I've seen those PUA and MRM forums and blogs (there seems to be some overlap between the two). I think a huge amount of posturing and winding up of men by men goes on on them.

 

For instance, one claim I've seen several times is that it's common practice for women to go out on a date with a man who will pay for her meal...then the woman will finish the date and go off and blow some other man.

I mean, for crying out loud. I'm sure there are instances of such behaviour occurring. All sorts of weird, wonderful and just plain sad human behaviour happens in life. However I really doubt women being treated by a meal to man A and then going round to man B's house to blow him is a common phenomenon.

 

That kind of paranoia-promoting "here's a big secret about women" crap is probably just the bastard offspring of bad porn mated with conspiracy theory sites....both of which, I get the distinct impression, are popular with a lot of the people who post on those PUA and MRM sites.

 

Then some of it spills out on sites like this that are popular with female posters, when guys who've read way too much crap on these PUA/MRM sites want to hold women to account for the crimes we haven't actually committed.

 

It is actually quite common where I live. But I come from a particularly "urban" (hate that term) part of London anyway. It's not a completely regular occurrence but it does happen a lot. I've even heard stories about guys actually dropping their dates off to other guys houses, either completely oblivious to what she's doing or just so jaded that he reluctantly and bitterly accepts the scenario instead of just stepping out of it.

[iris219]

Women express their dating frustrations differently than men. I have no options, but I'm not bitter or angry. I'm sad and disappointed.

 

Because men are often solution oriented and expected to be proactive when it comes to women, lack of dating success can feel very personal for them, leading to them feeling like there's something wrong with them-- hence, where the bitterness comes from. They project this anger they feel towards themselves onto women.

 

On the other hand, I don't blame myself for my lack of dating options. It's just how it us and I have to accept it. I feel really unlucky, which makes me sad, not bitter. I also feel hopeless because there's not much you can do about bad luck.

[laotzu]

What the hell is MRM?

[Taramere]

It is actually quite common where I live. But I come from a particularly "urban" (hate that term) part of London anyway. It's not a completely regular occurrence but it does happen a lot. I've even heard stories about guys actually dropping their dates off to other guys houses, either completely oblivious to what she's doing or just so jaded that he reluctantly and bitterly accepts the scenario instead of just stepping out of it.

 

I haven't heard any stories from women doing that or from men who encountered it. Is it behaviour that's associated with drug use? I can imagine a man who takes drugs himself being agreeable to dropping a woman off at her drug dealer's house. Maybe accepting that she'll blow her dealer for some drugs, as long as he also gets something out of it.

 

As for a man who would just passively drive a woman he liked to another man's house so that she could have sex with that other man...it seems perfectly masochistic to me, but it's a choice those men have made freely.

 

In times past, I've been acquainted with lies people told about me. There's not always much you can do about it. Some guy you maybe kissed once, or maybe dated without anything happening at all, will insist to other men that the two of you did X, Y and Z...and it always seems to me that other men are very ready to believe these stories.

 

When you've been the subject of made up tales, bravado fuelled tales (and most women probably have at some point) you tend to be that bit more dubious about stories you hear regarding other people.

[ThaWholigan]

I haven't heard any stories from women doing that or from men who encountered it. Is it behaviour that's associated with drug use? I can imagine a man who takes drugs himself being agreeable to dropping a woman off at her drug dealer's house. Maybe accepting that she'll blow her dealer for some drugs, as long as he also gets something out of it.

 

As for a man who would just passively drive a woman he liked to another man's house so that she could have sex with that other man...it seems perfectly masochistic to me, but it's a choice those men have made freely.

 

In times past, I've been acquainted with lies people told about me. There's not always much you can do about it. Some guy you maybe kissed once, or maybe dated without anything happening at all, will insist to other men that the two of you did X, Y and Z...and it always seems to me that other men are very ready to believe these stories.

 

When you've been the subject of made up tales, bravado fuelled tales (and most women probably have at some point) you tend to be that bit more dubious about stories you hear regarding other people.

 

Nothing to do with drug use, everything to do with lack of attraction, and simply being able to take the piss because you can. I don't get angry about it, guys do similar stuff and justify it too.

 

It must be different where you are though, where I am, these stories are usually verifiable in some form, and true. I attribute these particular failings to the men who allow this to happen to them, because they have no idea how to generate attraction, how to exercise boundaries and how to have more self-worth than to put up with that.

 

As for the girls.....well, they have the options and the choices to be able to do that. Have a date with the guy who will buy them everything and treat them, then go off to the guy with the ripped body who will actually assert himself sexually without being aggressive or too passive. In my honest and humble opinion, that's simply the guys fault for not being a more whole man. Striking a proper balance.

[dasein]

For instance, one claim I've seen several times is that it's common practice for women to go out on a date with a man who will pay for her meal...then the woman will finish the date and go off and blow some other man.

 

I've posted about that here after experiencing it several times from both sides. Have been both the chump and the "playa" lots of times over 20 years of dating. Not just me either. For example (could give several if not many) I have a friend who regularly has women coming by his place for NSA, sometimes even having the clueless BF drop her off at his house under the belief that she is "babysitting" LOL. I didn't go to some PUA or MRM site and read about these things, I experienced them many times. As a matter of fact, my sole research into MRM has come about because -you- are so persistent in classifying every person who is an antifeminist as some kind of MRA or MRM that I wanted to see what the hell you are talking about.

 

It's not farfetched at all. Women go out with a "square" prospect with whom they want to preserve the illusion of being relatively chaste for whatever reason. They get horny during a date drinking wine, flirting, listening to music, having fun. Then they go straight home to the "known quantity" FWB to work off the "horny." Only a small nasty part of the "you can have it all" dreck spewed at women from every consumerist angle today. And of course you leave out my main objection and problem with the phenomenon, being inconsistent in accepting courtship largesse from a suitor interested in a relationship and marriage, while feeling no compunction at all to actually remain even somewhat chaste as part of accepting traditional courtship displays from men.

 

Fine if you personally don't do things like this, and I will submit that the types of women who do are too busy sexing themselves up to post in places like this. Can you imagine a member of the cast of Jersey Shore posting to an internet relationship forum? No they are too busy partying, as are a vast majority of young people all the way up into their 30s in the U.S.

[Taramere]

Nothing to do with drug use, everything to do with lack of attraction, and simply being able to take the piss because you can. I don't get angry about it, guys do similar stuff and justify it too.

 

It must be different where you are though, where I am, these stories are usually verifiable in some form, and true. I attribute these particular failings to the men who allow this to happen to them, because they have no idea how to generate attraction, how to exercise boundaries and how to have more self-worth than to put up with that.

 

Perhaps I'm out of the loop as dasein suggests. I've just not heard of women I know doing that...or men I know encountering women who expected them to drive them (the women) to other men's houses for sex.

 

Perhaps I'm not somebody other women would confide in about that kind of behaviour. If I rack my brains, I can think of one or two women I know who would maybe use people in that kind of cynical way, but I wouldn't exactly see them as mainstream types.

 

As for the girls.....well, they have the options and the choices to be able to do that. Have a date with the guy who will buy them everything and treat them

I read what you posted, and suddenly thought of a stripper I once met in a club years ago. The club was one of these places that was a sleazy dive by day but trendy by night. We'd arrived early, and the stripper had finished her shift. She started talking to me because, I suppose, she wanted to talk to another woman.

 

She was showing off all this gold jewellery. "Men bought me this, darling. Never buy for yourself what a man can buy you. If you were to come back with me to Newcastle I could show you how to get whatever you wanted."

 

She looked like an ageing biker hag...but nonetheless, there were men out there who were willing to buy her stuff.

 

As far as I've seen in life, a woman really doesn't need to be any great shakes in the looks department to get freebies out of men. I think the women who stoop to grabbing the freebies are often short of options (therefore quick to grasp them opportunistically whenever they come along) rather than blessed with them.

[Woggle]

Look at most feminist boards and you will see plenty of bitterness. Google I hate men and you will find a ton of misandry.

[ThaWholigan]

Perhaps I'm out of the loop as dasein suggests. I've just not heard of women I know doing that...or men I know encountering women who expected them to drive them (the women) to other men's houses for sex.

 

Perhaps I'm not somebody other women would confide in about that kind of behaviour. If I rack my brains, I can think of one or two women I know who would maybe use people in that kind of cynical way, but I wouldn't exactly see them as mainstream types.

 

I am but a young man of 23, so I would imagine this isn't quite as common amongst those older than me, but I know that even at that level it goes on, just to a lesser extent in my own observations. Girls are looking for men who excite them sexually more often these days I have seen, and guys that take them on dates and be all gentlemanly without making themselves attractive or seductive in any way just don't do it for them, so they do these kinds of things because they can. Having their cake and eating it....

 

I read what you posted, and suddenly thought of a stripper I once met in a club years ago. The club was one of these places that was a sleazy dive by day but trendy by night. We'd arrived early, and the stripper had finished her shift. She started talking to me because, I suppose, she wanted to talk to another woman.

 

She was showing off all this gold jewellery. "Men bought me this, darling. Never buy for yourself what a man can buy you. If you were to come back with me to Newcastle I could show you how to get whatever you wanted."

 

She looked like an ageing biker hag...but nonetheless, there were men out there who were willing to buy her stuff.

 

As far as I've seen in life, a woman really doesn't need to be any great shakes in the looks department to get freebies out of men. I think the women who stoop to grabbing the freebies are often short of options (therefore quick to grasp them opportunistically whenever they come along) rather than blessed with them.

 

I kind of agree. I think women would much rather prefer to be dating men who embody traits of both the uber-gentleman and the strong dude with ripped abs. They need that balance, and I think a lot of men aren't providing that. I think there is a gender miscommunication personally, I don't think it's the fault of either gender, and I don't really follow the whole feminist/MRA stuff either.

[Taramere]

Look at most feminist boards and you will see plenty of bitterness. Google I hate men and you will find a ton of misandry.

 

I just googled "I hate horses". As a horse-lover, I was pretty angry about what I found. Let's see what else is out there.

 

Results for "I hate men" = 459,000. "I hate women" = 1,460,000. More than three times as much hate for women out there as there is for men. We win again!

 

PS...on the topic of hate, is anybody else getting hate PMs from DHM or whatever he's called?

Edited January 7, 2012 by Taramere

[johan]

I googled "I hate pasta" and got 32 million results. I googled "I hate pasta sauce" and only got 6.67 million results. I think this must mean that there are millions of people out there drinking Ragu straight from the bottle.

 

Men are apparently WAY more popular than pasta though. Good to know.

[allina]

I googled "I hate pasta" and got 32 million results. I googled "I hate pasta sauce" and only got 6.67 million results. I think this must mean that there are millions of people out there drinking Ragu straight from the bottle.

 

Men are apparently WAY more popular than pasta though. Good to know.

 

:laugh:

 

I started typing "I hate" in to google and the first thing it guessed was "I hate my teenaged daughter"

 

So don't worry Woggle, men are less hated than teenage women.

 

Then, I googled "I hate women" 147,000,000 results in .2 seconds. The top result was a website called ihatewomen.com.

[dasein]

Monkey v Robot is pretty funny on the ihatewomen.com site.

[allina]

Monkey v Robot is pretty funny on the ihatewomen.com site.

 

I only saw the 1st half of it before it got stuck buffering :laugh:

[jobaba]

Women express their dating frustrations differently than men. I have no options, but I'm not bitter or angry. I'm sad and disappointed.

 

Because men are often solution oriented and expected to be proactive when it comes to women, lack of dating success can feel very personal for them, leading to them feeling like there's something wrong with them-- hence, where the bitterness comes from. They project this anger they feel towards themselves onto women.

 

On the other hand, I don't blame myself for my lack of dating options. It's just how it us and I have to accept it. I feel really unlucky, which makes me sad, not bitter. I also feel hopeless because there's not much you can do about bad luck.

 

I think this somewhat runs true.

 

I feel sad for women if they view the game of love so fatalistically.

 

When I get knocked down, I get right back up and do something about it, improve myself, go hit on more girls, adjust my standards, etc...

 

If you're just waiting sad and alone for Prince Charming and rejecting perfectly good guys as they come by because they don't "do it for you" that's kind of sad.

[Imajerk17]

Good thread!

 

Well, there is IME an interesting cycle going on in dating these days.

 

There are some guys out there who have a lot going for them on paper--successful career, good communication skills--in business and "polite social" settings anyway*, even good looks, but for the life of them, can't seem to get a woman truly interested in them. They go on first dates that, often, actually seemed to go well, and then when they call the woman for a second date, they get something like "you're a nice guy but no chemistry" as a response. IF she even has the courtesy to get back to him that is. To these guys, dating just isn't fair--they have to do all the work and women get to do the choosing. Also to them, women are a mystery, have crazy standards, they have the bar set impossibly high--these guys did everything they were "supposed to do" and the women still aren't interested! What does it take!

 

These are the guys who gripe about women. They say that women love jerks or a guy who has even more money and is better-looking. That's not quite true. [They gripe more online where they are anonymous because if they complained IRL they would get shunned for it.]

 

These women, in turn, tend to be getting stuck on guys who aren't that good for them. They keep "hanging out with" (sex but no "date" per se) who are in no hurry to give a commitment and who don't even seem to have their lives in order, and end up in relationships with these guys where there is a lot of drama and conflict.

 

And so you will hear these women lament about "If I'm so attractive and great why can't I find someone decent, I only want a nice guy!". That's not really true either. [These women can lament to their girlfriends, they don't need to come online and rant to a bunch of strangers, some who might be judgmental towards them.]

 

[i didn't yet even mention the women who might be the most wonderful human beings on the planet, but because they weren't blessed with looks, almost NEVER get any sort of male attention. They see men pass them up to go for their "shallower" prettier sisters, and think that men are jerks. I honestly can see where they are coming from.]

 

 

Now there are many many exceptions to the above no doubt. There are lots of healthy relationships out there. If you are to ask the guy what he sees in the woman, yes there is looks, but there is something more than that. If you were to ask the woman what she sees in the guy, the answer is more complicated. No, it's not that he is a jerk or has lots of money or is great-looking, as the Bitter Boys say. He usually has some money and is often at least average-looking, but he usually isn't Brad Pitt or anything. And NO, it's not just that he is a nice guy either, as the women like to say. He has an edge which is hard to describe.

 

 

 

 

*Just because you can make good conversation with the 65-year-old CEO of your company or with 60-year-old Aunt Grace doesn't mean you can spark attraction with the attractive 30-year-old woman on a date with you.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Imajerk17

[iris219]

I think this somewhat runs true.

 

I feel sad for women if they view the game of love so fatalistically.

 

When I get knocked down, I get right back up and do something about it, improve myself, go hit on more girls, adjust my standards, etc...

 

If you're just waiting sad and alone for Prince Charming and rejecting perfectly good guys as they come by because they don't "do it for you" that's kind of sad.

 

If there was something I could do to improve my chances with men I would.

 

I don't reject men; I hardly ever meet single men and when I do I go out with them. I'm also not picky; I have almost no dealbreakers (which I'm sure reflects badly on me)--I'll go out with an average looking guy who's underemployed and drinks too much (and I'm none of those things). That's what not having options leads to--low standards.*

 

I'm going out with friends to see a band tonight. I can almost guarantee there will be no single men my age there.*

 

*