SoMovinOn Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 There are 3 things that have to change in order to have a successful reconciliation. First: the WS, Second: the marriage, Third: the BS Sometimes therapy is required to guide the couple, both as partners and individually. Not all make it in the long run even with counseling. They say 2 to 5 years to recover is the norm. You mentioned not ever forgetting what the WS is capable of, I think this is a good thing. Trust but verify. What M is worth all that? For that matter, what R is worth all that? To me, trust of that level needs to be blind. If I need to verify, it's not trust. There are times when it's crucial the trust be implicit, with no strings, no verification. Think of a military guy trusting someone else to have their back, to do what they are supposed to do so you can both survive. There's no time to verify. The trust has to be there. In other circles, the trust level is similar. You either trust someone, or you don't. If you need verification - you don't. That doesn't mean you can't ever trust someone who's done something wrong. The trust is between just you two. In your provided example/scenario, as I see it, you're just creating an illusion of trust. That wouldn't work for me, and it wouldn't work for most people I know IRL, and, from what I have seen IRL, it really doesn't work for the people who say it does. There are plenty of M's that appear to be working very well to anyone who looks in from the outside. They never find out the reality until the day the couple announces they are splitting up. At that point, everyone is "shocked" that such a "perfect couple" would D. That's how I see it.
anne1707 Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Careful SMO. You're beginning to sound like Quantum Weapon.
Fabian Montenegro Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Careful SMO. You're beginning to sound like Quantum Weapon. Hasn't reached JMK levels though
woinlove Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Not sure what you think I'm lying to myself about. I know people IRL, outstide of LS, I've read forums other than LS. I base my opinions, as you and everyone else does, on the totality of my knowledge and experiences. I understand your knowledge and experiences are different. I am fine with you disagreeing with my opinions. I just meant that I think it is more likely that you are settling and lying to yourself about being your choice to stay in a long term A than it is that people like Owl or Seren are. I don't grasp how you feel the two are related. Someone who stays with someone who has deliberately stabbed them in the back, whether the betrayal of trust is in a M or any other R, is just asking to be stabbed in the back again. It seems most people feel that way in any other R, but somehow, when it comes to M, they believe it will work out OK. I don't buy the once a cheater always a cheater. Sure, if the person does not do the work required to really change, then they are likely to cheat on whoever they are with, whether that is the BS or a new partner or the AP. But, people can and do change and I think cases where the spouses reconcile and are happy and committed are likely cases where the WS has really changed.
East7 Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 I am not in a good position to answer (as fOM) but I think everyone has the right to choose to pursue or not their relationship despite what other people or moral codes can suggest. I honestly respect those who forgive and stay because they love their spouses. It is as simple as that. It is not something I would have done though. As xOM I have been thinking after the A that I couldn't trust someone like my xMW. How can you trust someone who consciously kept a secret relationship for over one year ? It is not just a ONS or a "mistake", it is a conscious confirmed and pursued choice in a considerable time-length. I tried to be in her shoes. I have a hard time to imagine myself lying to the person I promised lifetime loyalty, sharing a roof, everyday life, finances, kids..sleeping next to her every night and going to have passionate sex with a lover once in a while and continue as if nothing.. I pushed her many times to tell her H, told her : "if you really love me so much and guilt is eating you up, just tell him !" Her answer was "but he will divorce me..:(" How selfish is that ? I also think that when it comes to infidelity women are much more able to forgive than men. Most men can't get over a wayward wife.
SidLyon Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) I was wondering about hearing opinions from some people that either stayed with their cheating spouse, or those that would wonder what their mindset would be IF they stay with a cheating spouse. I have no doubt that there are many people that stay in their marriage and can "survive" and that even though they can't forget, they can get to a point of some sort of normalcy again where the affair doesn't eat them alive. I admit that I wouldn't be able to be that person. I think if I had stayed in my marriage for the wrong reasons, my kids, that even if I got to a point where the affair didn't bother like it did when it was fresh, that I'd still look at her from time to time and think to myself, "b!tch". Which is exactly the reason I didn't stay, other than the fact I'd never have trusted her again. So the question is are there any of you out there that stayed, recovered somewhat, but still look at your spouse with disgust from time to time? Or if you aren't in that situation and imagine you stayed with a cheating spouse, do you think you'd silently cuss your spouse out in your mind here and there, maybe as some sort of hidden therapeutic outlet? I'm one that stayed with a cheating husband and we're now more than 3 years past d-day. I was completely blindsided and devastated when I found out. The cheating at that stage had been going on for more than half my marriage so it was long-term. We have now been married 18 years and at the time I found out he'd been a cheater for 7 years. Like many I mourned and really felt that I'd been "living a lie" but one thing I knew for sure from d-day, was that I didn't want my old marriage back, not even what I thought I'd had. So for the past 3.5 years we have been rebuilding ourselves and our relationship and now our relationship is completely different. He in particular works hard to maintain a good relationship and keep communication open. I have had no cause to suspect he has fallen back into his old ways and I believe I would recognise the signs now. I still have my moments when I have disgust and dismay at what he did although he personally doesn't disgust or repulse me. One thing I can relate to is the habit of MM in telling their OW that they will leave their BW once "such and such" has occurred. At d-day a significant thought I had was that my marriage was over, however I was told that I could defer any decisions to end our marriage until I was "stronger". In my mind I did this by saying to myself things like, "well I won't make any decisions about leaving until... - after Christmas - after various birthdays - after our anniversary - after our kids' school year ends - after I have finished my study - after the kids have finished school entirely" etc etc. This, while mimicking what a lot of MM do, actually helped me divide my life into manageable chunks because each time I was only committed (to myself) to staying for a short period of time. During that time I have finished my law degree and my post-grad, been admitted to the bar, our kids are almost finished high school, we have celebrated 4 Christmases, 4 new years and 4 wedding anniversaries and got through numerous family birthdays so it has really served a purpose. Unlike with a MM there's been no OW "waiting" on our separation, so my doing this hasn't harmed anyone and has actually facilitated our staying together. I can sort of relate to why MM do this and wonder if it isn't necessarily to deceive an OW into continuing the affair, so much as an attempt to keep the marriage going before calling it quits. Has anyone else had this thought or am I completely off-track, after all I am a BW not a WH? Staying married has been one of the best things I have done. Trust is rebuilt however it won't be the same as the blind trust I had before. Blind trust has been one of the real casualties of his infidelity. Edited January 8, 2012 by SidLyon
seren Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 OK, I haven't stayed married to a cheater, I stay married to someone who has cheated, but the A no more defines who he is than it defines our marriage. When H had the A we were having problems, H had some very deep s*** problems, mainly to do with his crappy experiences in 3 Iraq tours and the loss of friends and colleagues. That he chose to deal with these by having an A is, of course, not how I would have had happen (understatement of the decade). BUT, I understand the place he was in at that time, I also accept and own my own contribution to our marriage problems before the A, not the A. The decision to leave never, not for one moment crossed my mind. I recently said to H that while I still feel sadness at the A, a part of me is glad that he was able to talk to someone, (OW) that he had an escape from the mental hell he was going through at that time. I feel huge regret that it wasn't me, but I understand why. I have never, ever settled for anything other than what enhances my life. It is your opinion that I, as a BS, had/have, it is my experience that I certainly do not. Staying has seen us both address our problems, H has turned himself inside out and faced demons you and I will never have to address, and I am hugely proud of him for that. Our marriage is, frankly, bloody fantastic. In our near 27 years together I would say 18 months were off track, not totally destroyed, but we took our eye off the ball. There is no checking up, no worrying where he is, no lack of trust that he will have another A. My reality tells me that we are in a very good place, it also informs me that reconciliation can and is possible without anyone settling for anything other than what works for the individual. The A happened, it is a part of our marriage history, however, we have moved along from that, of course there is sadness that it happened, but it did, however, it doesn't define our marriage, nor does the A always mean that my H has to wear the big C label. He is, in my eyes, the person I love with all I have, I have forgiven him, he has a harder time forgiving himself, but I will continue to try to help him move along and regain his self respect. In my opinion, some marriage's recover and some don't, some people stay for different reasons from mine, their lives, their reality. My opinion really doesn't matter, but I keep an open mind and leave others to their own.
frozensprouts Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 I know it will probably make a few eyes roll, but the initial reason I stayed was because I thought that it was what would be best for my kids and myself. My husband's cheating really threw me and I wanted to have some time to try and make the best decision possible, and staying for my kids gave me that time...time to calm down, see what the fallout would be and also to see if he really did want to stay together or if he was just staying because he was too scared to leave. I told him to go and be with his other woman, if that is what he really wanted to do and if that was what he thought would make him happy.he chose to stay. I let him know that if we were going to stay together, he needed to get help for himself, as he was in a really bad place in his mind, and we needed to get help to figure out where our problems lay and how to make changes and move forward. It's been a long road, but things are much better now, and I trust him as much as i could trust anyone ( my naive "blind faith" is no longer there, but I don't think it would be there with anyone, no matter who they were) To be honest, we both had lousy ways of coping with problems. I shut down and go within myself, he needed to go outside himself. We have learned better ways to deal with things. I always think it's too bad that kids aren't taught about more than just the mechanics of sex in school. It's too bad they don't learn about the 'mechanics' of relationships and that they are not always the "flowers and rainbows' that some expect them to be. There can be some really hard things to deal with that can either make or break a relationship. If they make the relationship, it can be even stronger than before.
beenburned Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Sid, I did the same thing you did after d-day. At that time I was a SAHM, and knew I had to be able to support myself and the kids, if I decided to divorce FWS. We did separate for about a month, while I pulled myself together emotionally. I went back to college, got a full time job w/good benefits, and started saving money for the day I could leave. Several years had passed by, and FWS had proven himself a totally changed man. So I decided to stay a while longer to see if it was permanent. Lucky for me he has never made me sorry that I gave him that second chance. So, for all the people that think infidelity is unforgiveable, you might just be throwing away a good person that does love you enough to do the hard work of changing into a better spouse.
RickFox Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) It's a question I often ask my wife, knowing full well that if the tables were turned I would most likely not still be around. I ask her all the time, why are you still with me? She says it's because she loves me, and it's come out at times that she doesn't want to be alone or not have me around for our daughter but that she loves me that much. I find I disgust myself, that this affair has affected me so deeply (as well as my wife) and every time my mind drifts to the other woman I feel like Im betraying my wife all over again and ripping at the scabs that have started to heal. I have to always remind myself how my xMW handled things, how cold and indifferent she is to me now (despite the fact that may be how she handles it all, it just isn't how an adult should be), how she can just go on with her life, her betrayal, and act as though nothing has happened, and when I find myself wishing she would reach out, I have to ask why Im feeling like this, all the while having a wife who loved me enough to keep me, who has changed her life around to please me when it should never have been like that and because quite frankly I'm a pig who was perfectly satisfied having his cake and eating it too........... I guess today is not a good day. I look at East7's posts and I think to myself, at least she still contacts you, at least she still has interest in you, at least you can try and get answers and then I have to remind myself (should I really have to remind myself?) that love is so much more than just saying it............ How do you stay married to a cheater? How can it get better? Edited January 9, 2012 by RickFox
frozensprouts Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 I look at East7's posts and I think to myself, at least she still contacts you, at least she still has interest in you, at least you can try and get answers and then I have to remind myself (should I really have to remind myself?) that love is so much more than just saying it............ How do you stay married to a cheater? How can it get better? Rick, It gets better when you let it get better. You have to be willing ( and able) to close the door on the part of your life that involved your affair and leave the door that leads to your future with your wife wide open. No offense intended, but i doesn't sound like you are doing that. It sounds like you are allowing too much of your thoughts nd your time to be directed to your other woman. Since it sounds like you are planning to stsy with your wife, does it really matter what your other woman's answers are? Perhaps it's time to accept that you may never have the answers and that it's time to move on.
RickFox Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Frozen, I have good days and bad days, mornings seem to be the worst for me and that's when I wrote what I did. The good days outnumber the bad but when the bad hit, they hit nicely. I take a few steps forward and a few back and I allow those back steps, they help put things in perspective as does posting here at times. I see my wife look at me and I see the pain, so I know what she's thinking and thus my mind goes to that way too... however, if I don't remind myself of what happened I will find myself consumed again. Moving forward is so much easier said than done, sure we can move forward but when the past is so recent, the mind has a mind of its own. Im moving slowly but surely and yeah, I know, I won't ever get the answers Im looking for and if I got them, I doubt I'd believe them.
East7 Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 I look at East7's posts and I think to myself, at least she still contacts you, at least she still has interest in you, at least you can try and get answers and then I have to remind myself (should I really have to remind myself?) that love is so much more than just saying it............ How do you stay married to a cheater? How can it get better? Rick, I can guarantee you that it doesn't make me any happier to have xMW contacting me and saying ILYs. It doesn't make any difference. It just stirs up some drama. Yes love is much more than just words. Words are cheap, it don't cost anything to spell them. Actions, actions, actions... You have on one side a wife with integrity, who is a keeper and a loving person and on the other side a selfish b1tch who threw you away as soon as her cake-eating was compromised. Let her H have her! You are lucky to have a faithful wife.
Spark1111 Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Frozen, I have good days and bad days, mornings seem to be the worst for me and that's when I wrote what I did. The good days outnumber the bad but when the bad hit, they hit nicely. I take a few steps forward and a few back and I allow those back steps, they help put things in perspective as does posting here at times. I see my wife look at me and I see the pain, so I know what she's thinking and thus my mind goes to that way too... however, if I don't remind myself of what happened I will find myself consumed again. Moving forward is so much easier said than done, sure we can move forward but when the past is so recent, the mind has a mind of its own. Im moving slowly but surely and yeah, I know, I won't ever get the answers Im looking for and if I got them, I doubt I'd believe them. Wow, Rick....I wish your wife was posting here. She could tell us of the excrutiating pain of knowing, just knowing now that she is tuned into it, that you have moments, mornings, of missing your xOW and having some emotional closure from it. East is too kind. I would throw you out in a heartbeat until the mourning was over and you were SURE you wanted me and I was sure I WANTED you. Do not think that she doesn't know your heart. Maybe she forgave you too quickly because she's a mother right? And her first concerns were that your daughter NOT be shamed by your actions, correct? Your wife is a better woman than I, for NOW. She is observing your every mood and is more aware than you might realize. Do not think she isn't wishing, praying and hoping that some man will cherish her emotionally and physically; will pine away for her time and attention; will appreciate and have gratitude for her devotion. Right now, she is hoping that man is YOU, and that she didn't make a mistake here...... But if not you, there will be someone out there who appreciates her. She sounds rare and special. Just saying....just because you are home does not mean you are out of the woods in terms of R. Don't blow it. Don't make her feel like your default choice. You still could lose your marriage in the next five years if you do not play your cards right. Decide, choose, commit. Period.
PhoenixRise Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Wow, Rick....I wish your wife was posting here. She could tell us of the excrutiating pain of knowing, just knowing now that she is tuned into it, that you have moments, mornings, of missing your xOW and having some emotional closure from it. East is too kind. I would throw you out in a heartbeat until the mourning was over and you were SURE you wanted me and I was sure I WANTED you. Do not think that she doesn't know your heart. Maybe she forgave you too quickly because she's a mother right? And her first concerns were that your daughter NOT be shamed by your actions, correct? Your wife is a better woman than I, for NOW. She is observing your every mood and is more aware than you might realize. Do not think she isn't wishing, praying and hoping that some man will cherish her emotionally and physically; will pine away for her time and attention; will appreciate and have gratitude for her devotion. Right now, she is hoping that man is YOU, and that she didn't make a mistake here...... But if not you, there will be someone out there who appreciates her. She sounds rare and special. Just saying....just because you are home does not mean you are out of the woods in terms of R. Don't blow it. Don't make her feel like your default choice. You still could lose your marriage in the next five years if you do not play your cards right. Decide, choose, commit. Period. I agree with every word of this. Your wife, Rick, is in survival mode. She is probably doing what many BS do after a devastating dday. She is just holding on real tight and hoping that her world will stop shifting under her feet. When she finally feels secure enough, ok enough, in control enough, etc. She is going to get good and mad as hell. She just is. You said in a previous post that she had recently (after dday) become obsessed with working out and had dropped several dress sizes. She is probably getting a lot of attention in your town Rick. From men who have noticed the change in her. From men who have heard whispers about you and your MOW and now see a potentially pissed off, mistreated wife, who might be looking for a little validation of her own attractiveness and worth. You wife might have too much integrity to ever have a revenge affair but she IS going to wonder at some point why the hell she is stuck with you when she could have a man who has her first and foremost in his heart and mind. She knows now you are capable of the kind of all consuming passion you are displaying (feeling ) for MOW and she is going to wonder what the hell is wrong with you that you are continuing to pine after a married woman who ended up treating you like crap when you have her sitting there, loving you like she always has, supporting you like she always has, being a good mother to your children, being a good woman overall. And Newly slimmed down to boot! Rick I see from your posts that you are trying to get past this and I hope for your sake you succeed and that you get it together quickly. You don't realize it yet but It is BECAUSE Your wife loves you and has loved you all along, that she is going to eventually reach the pissed off stage and realize that she can do better than you. If you have not truly recommitted to her in your heart and in your mind by then, you can just kiss your marriage goodbye. I really wish your wife was posting here.
goldengirl86 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Rick i think it is great that you are sharing your inner thoughts with us and they are nothing to be ashamed off. The fact that you cared deeply for this woman shows that at least you were not just some scumbag interested in sex. (she though who knows). A friend of mine told me this story of how this man cheated on his wife who was amazing she was great!, However, the man fell in love with the OW and i guess she kinda messed with his head as after she broke up with him he went and killed himself. His family and friends could not understand how he could do that especially since he had such an amazing wife, but what the heart wants the heart wants. You could be married to the most amazing person in the world and your heart could still belong to another. You can never know what the other person is thinking. From reading all these posts and hearing stories i have learnt that unfortunately for alot of BS even when the WS ends things with the AP they still think about them and love them. However, the BS is never going to know this because why would they hurt them as they have already caused them enough pain, so they keep it to themselves and the BS believes them when they say they did not love the OP etc (which i dont undertstand especilly since they have proved themselves to be a liar, so its is funny that they would believe a word that comes out of there mouths). Alot of BS will say if i knew he was pining away for the OW/M i would leave, how would you know? That being said i can see from people like SEREN and others that they have forgiven and there marriages are better, and that is good for them great in fact. However, you will get just as many posters who say they have stayed married and are miserable and just as many who have left and are now happy. There is a reason in the bible adultery is the one sin you can divorce someone from, because everything about it is wrong. RICK: like any breakup you will have good and bad days as you said, i know you love your wife, and yeah you do care for this OW too, so regardless of her feelings grieve for the lost and except that she is going on with her life, her not contacting you may not be a sign that she does not love you or care about you, in fact it could be the opposite. We can never know another persons mind. As for staying married to a cheater: we each have our own paths in life to lead and make our own decisions, each to there own!
frozensprouts Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 rick, i know that you feel terrible that you hurt your wife like you did, and that the last thing you want to do is hurt her even more...but the fact is that have hurt her and she is continuing to be hurt. You still seem ( and maybe i am wrong)to have some pretty strong feelings for your other woman, and they still seem to be affecting you a fair amount. You may not realize it, but your wife probably knows this, and it's tearing her up inside. It's pretty hard to hide something like that. Perhaps it's time to ask yourself a really hard question...why is it that you want to be with your wife? Is it because you love her and want to be with her, or is it because your other woman has moved on and your wife is your "default choice" ? If you are with her because you really love her, then ( and this may sound cruel to you, and for that I am sorry) it's time to stop "grieving" and move on. Stop looking for "answers" that really, in the long run, don't matter.Stop worrying about your other woman and how she is feeling or why she is acting the way she is....that is for her husband to worry about, not you. you have a wife at home who loves you and who is willing to stay with you despite the fact that you ripped her heart out, stomped on it, handed it back, bruised and bleeding, to her to heal alone while you "grieve" ( again, sorry if i sound harsh here). You know she is hurting, know she needs her time to heal, be angry, be sad, do her own grieving, yet she is your third priority, behind your other woman and behind yourself. She may even be afraid to let you see just how she is feeling because she knows you still pine for your other woman. I get that you've become mired in your own pain, but if your want your marriage to last, you'd better pull yourself out quickly...if you can't do it alone , get some help from a professional. ( i know many will say that grieving is important and that you can't hurry up the process...but i really do think that while it is important, it is just as important to not let our grief rule our behavior...eventually, one has to let go...but to do so, one has to want to move on) If you are with your wife as a "default choice' because your other woman chose her marriage instead of you, i would suggest sharing this with your wife. It may be really hard to do, and it may hurt her, but at least she would know where she stands and it would be much less painful than to have to go on knowing that you are still grieving the loss of your other relationship. The ball is in your court right now...what do you think is the right path to take?
Steadfast Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 It's a question I often ask my wife, knowing full well that if the tables were turned I would most likely not still be around. I ask her all the time, why are you still with me? This is one of the most brutal posts I've read. Rick, you need some cold water thrown in your face, but at the same time I admire you...and your willingness to open up and share what must be hard to have examined. Kiss her on the cheek when she's not expecting it. Listen in humility when she's angry. Have the strength to realize as a man trying to regain his honor, it's critical that you face it. As of right now life is backwards; your thoughts are following your actions. That's another way of saying that you are backing out of the mess you helped create. See it for what it is. Kiss her and be strong.
woinlove Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) RICK: like any breakup you will have good and bad days as you said, i know you love your wife, and yeah you do care for this OW too, so regardless of her feelings grieve for the lost and except that she is going on with her life, her not contacting you may not be a sign that she does not love you or care about you, in fact it could be the opposite. We can never know another persons mind. I said this, Rick, when you first started posting but, again, do you actually love your W? Why do you want to stay married to her? Feeling she doesn't deserve you is not love because that is feelings about you and love would be feelings about her. I hear your guilt, your preoccupation with yourself and with your own feelings, your obsession and attachment to the OW, but I don't hear anything that makes me think of love for your wife. Just recognizing that she is great and loves you and is better than you deserve is not love and is not a reason to stay married. I love my H and I have an open M so I have developed feelings for others at times, but I cannot imagine feeling what you describe, which strikes me so much as a lack of love for your W. Rick, have you done any really hard work and questioning to ask yourself if you really love your W? Maybe you aren't capable of much love, so the answer might be you love her as much as you are capable of loving anyone. However, if you are capable of love, I don't see it in your posts, past or current. What I see is some level of caring together with an attachment to the idea of being married to your W, taking her for granted, perhaps enjoying some of the love she gives you, and maybe thinking you should love her. ETA: golden, I copied and bolded that statement in your message because it seems you saw something that I don't see. Does this look like love to you? Edited January 10, 2012 by woinlove
goldengirl86 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Woinlove:ETA: golden, I copied and bolded that statement in your message because it seems you saw something that I don't see. Does this look like love to you? There are many different types of love, I think Rick does love his wife and the MOW. I think we are more than capable of loving more than one person at one time. However, i do think if you truely loved the first one there would not be a second. I actually think he is trying and has pulled his head out of his ass, i mean there are millons of people out there who dont love the one that loves them and that does not mean there is something broken inside of them. I believe Rick developed a friendship with the OW before hand so i have no doubt that his feelings for her are real. However, that is not the point you are all trying to make. Rick if push came to shove and this had gone down differently you would have left your wife, you have been honest to us about this, but you should tell your wife this two. Your wife is competing with this woman, she does not want this woman's husband to know because she is scared to lose you and that by telling him that would end there marriage and push this woman into your arms. I have heard of stories where women take back there husbands and change everything about themselves, they lose a bunch of weight, they dont bring up the affair, hell they would do anything to make him happy to make him stay, and in the end it all ends the same. When your so desperate to keep someone you will put up with them pining after the other woman etc. Heck my FMM threatened to kill his wife and even tried twice everytime she brought up the affair or me, hell she even let him put the children's life at risk in a bid to save there realationship, but he would say he loved her and she would say she loved him alot. Now does that sound like love to anyone NO, it sounds like fear, control and desperation in fact in kind off sounds more like infactuation. However, it is what we believe love is. Rick loves his wife, but it is different to what he feels for the OW, that does not mean he does not love his wife. However, that being said you RICK need to decide whether you will be happy in your life as it is. Sometimes we can feel when something does not quite fit, like you and your wife and we can choose to accept this and make the most of it or let them free so they can have the chance to find someone who feels the same way you do about the OW. Like alot of woman and men who stay will cheaters your wife is making herself into one very unhappy woman, her desperation for you and having you will ultimately destroy you too and the love she has for you, unless by some divine miracle you can change this and stop this from happening, which i dont see how your going to be able to do, because you and i both know that if this OW snapped her little fingers you would run to her, she knows it and you know it, and deep down i think your wifes knows it why do you think she is hanging on so tightly.
Kitsune77 Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 This is one of the most beautiful, aware posts I have ever read, and I am very happy for you Seren that it has worked so well for you both. I stayed for my own selfish reasons, I loved my H, had loved him for over 23 years and knew that I would never love someone else as much. I looked at the A and balanced that against what we had, had before our marriage took a wrong turn and what I hoped we could have again. If for just one moment, I felt that I didn't love him, I would have left. I had no need to stay, other than the need to try to work with him to fix what had been broken. Trust was never an issue for me, well I should say trust that he would do it again was not an issue, trusting him with me took longer. It wasn't that I thought I would be alone if I left, I had and have a healthy ego and know my worth. TBH, my first feelings after the WTF and anger, was to feel rather sorry for him, still do in some part of me. it was all just so out of character and so not what he is about, but just before and during the A, he was a very, very different person, for all sorts of reasons, which I understood. I of course didn't and don't agree that having an A was the way to deal with his issues, but it was what it was. If we couldn't get past that then we were doomed to fail. Had it happened early into our marriage I would have left, simply because I don't believe that I felt the depth of feeling that developed over the years. Reconciliation is hard, but once the corner is turned it is not the same marriage, but one which has weathered the biggest dammed storm and is still strong despite it. It is the hardest thing I have ever done, but I am glad we are where we are today, I still feel sadness about the A, but have far more joy because of having H in my life. It is, for me all about balance. I stay married to the man I love, yes one who cheated, but that doesn't define who he is, he is far more than that.
RickFox Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I do love my wife, and as I said, when I posted it was morning and those are the hardest times for me in dealing with emotions and at times they get the better of me. It's just barely 5 months post affair, Im allowed to falter at times and you bet I pull myself up by the bootstraps. The problem is, I had a huge disconnect from her and replaced her with the other woman, and yes, I've been pulling my head from the dark area for a while now. I am broken, no doubt, but Im working on me and my marriage and if it fails it will not be because OW snaps her fingers, not anymore. Believe it or not, Ive gained quite a bit of clarity and see much of what was as it is and I am focusing alot more on my wife and her interests and needs and trying to listen. I can't help that I post about me and my feelings on here and not my wife , it's just what I feel like posting. I took my marriage for granted, took my wife for granted and went looking for something better, forgetting the totality of the circumstances. I will let my wife go if I feel that I cannot love her as she deserves, but I will not do that until I focus on her completely which I am doing. I find that if I fight my thoughts, it does't help me but if I acknowledge what Im thinking and accept the thoughts will come and go then I bounce back quicker. As of writing this right now, I could care less what the OW is doing, she's not my concern anymore, my marriage and family are and that is how I feel the vast majority of the time, it's those rare mornings where things hit hard and alot of that stems from the memories that I have from when we met after drop off at the school. Frozen, you're right, it is time to stop grieving and for the most part I have. I slip once in a while, and Im with my wife, not by default, I could have still left and considered it, but if she was not willing to let go then I too felt it was worth trying to save. I'm with her because I don't want to throw a total of 17 years away with a woman I've built a life with, I do love her, it was never about her, just my selfishness and I realize more now what love is. She didn't walk out on me when I did her and I feel if she is willing to keep me, despite my betrayal, then by God I will do my very best to fix what I broke and find what I lost between us. I will be the last person to sit around and waste anymore of her time, Ive done that enough and I know that she isn't going to sit around and take the role of second fiddle anymore either. Just as an FYI, she and I do speak about the OW, we talk about what happened, and some of my feelings, both past and present, as well. Not an easy thing to do or for her to hear but it's therapeutic at times. Edited January 10, 2012 by RickFox
woinlove Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 There are many different types of love, I think Rick does love his wife and the MOW. Yes, I am referring to the type of romantic love that could sustain a life-long marriage. I think we are more than capable of loving more than one person at one time. However, i do think if you truely loved the first one there would not be a second. I agree some people can love more than one person at a time, but don't agree that there is no second with true love. For some yes and for others no. However, I don't understand lying and deceiving someone you love and think people who actually love someone and treat them that way must have something broken inside themselves. I actually think he is trying and has pulled his head out of his ass, i mean there are millons of people out there who dont love the one that loves them and that does not mean there is something broken inside of them. Nothing broken about not loving someone who loves you. However, choosing to lie to and deceive someone who loves you and who you share a home and a family with - yes, that sounds very broken to me. I believe Rick developed a friendship with the OW before hand so i have no doubt that his feelings for her are real. However, that is not the point you are all trying to make. I don't see much love there with the OW either. It seems to be obsession, obsessed about what she thinks and feels about him. Not much evidence of wanting her to be happy and wanting to share his life with her, wanting her to fulfil all her dreams and hopes, doing whatever he can to help with that and to ease any hurt and disappointment. He is not showing that for either his wife or the OW. As to Rick's W being desperate, it does sound like she has lost her confidence and feels threatened that her H chose to deceive her to be with another woman. It is still early days and, hopefully, she will regain her equilibrium and may very well make different decisions and choices then. Meanwhile, they are currently building the future of their R. Whatever each of them is giving right now will pay off in some way to their future R whether that is as divorced parents or married parents. If the giving is little or negative, the pay off is likely to be too.
woinlove Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 This! And Spark's and PhoenixRise and Frozensprouts, all of them have made such great points. I also have gotten the impression from your posts that you aren't really loving your wife, that you are just grateful that she loves you and is sticking with you, she is your back up plan since things didn't work out with mow. I think I've even posted before that you better get off the pot and get to it with your wife or either get out. Her patience with you will run out at some point and the more she does to get her confidence back, the more she is going to look at you as a liability if you don't pull your head out of your arse. She is going to be looking realistically at the problems before the affair, and then heep on the pain the affair has brought her and she might just decide you aren't worth it because she knows in her heart that you aren't all in. On the other hand if you pull your head at of your arse and get to loving her like she deserves, you might keep her. Even though you said you've made a choice, you haven't really. I also think it would be really wise of you to get some ic and figure out what is broken inside of you that allowed you to get into an affair. I also don't think you really loved that ow, I think you are reacting because she rejected you and you feel abandoned. I think you've loved what you got from her, the excitement, the fantasy, the escape. The reality is, she is pretty damn cold hearted isn't she Rick? And not just because she dumped you but because of the affair and the things you two did while in the affair, right? Clear your vision, look at it realistically. It's kinda like poker Rick, you've got to know when to fold 'em (your ow) and know when to go all in (your wife), and know when to walk away. Good points about his W regaining her footing and things changing and about the need for IC.
woinlove Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I do love my wife, and as I said, when I posted it was morning and those are the hardest times for me in dealing with emotions and at times they get the better of me. It's just barely 5 months post affair, Im allowed to falter at times and you bet I pull myself up by the bootstraps. The problem is, I had a huge disconnect from her and replaced her with the other woman, and yes, I've been pulling my head from the dark area for a while now. I am broken, no doubt, but Im working on me and my marriage and if it fails it will not be because OW snaps her fingers, not anymore. Believe it or not, Ive gained quite a bit of clarity and see much of what was as it is and I am focusing alot more on my wife and her interests and needs and trying to listen. I can't help that I post about me and my feelings on here and not my wife , it's just what I feel like posting. I took my marriage for granted, took my wife for granted and went looking for something better, forgetting the totality of the circumstances. I will let my wife go if I feel that I cannot love her as she deserves, but I will not do that until I focus on her completely which I am doing. I find that if I fight my thoughts, it does't help me but if I acknowledge what Im thinking and accept the thoughts will come and go then I bounce back quicker. As of writing this right now, I could care less what the OW is doing, she's not my concern anymore, my marriage and family are and that is how I feel the vast majority of the time, it's those rare mornings where things hit hard and alot of that stems from the memories that I have from when we met after drop off at the school. Frozen, you're right, it is time to stop grieving and for the most part I have. I slip once in a while, and Im with my wife, not by default, I could have still left and considered it, but if she was not willing to let go then I too felt it was worth trying to save. I'm with her because I don't want to throw a total of 17 years away with a woman I've built a life with, I do love her, it was never about her, just my selfishness and I realize more now what love is. She didn't walk out on me when I did her and I feel if she is willing to keep me, despite my betrayal, then by God I will do my very best to fix what I broke and find what I lost between us. I will be the last person to sit around and waste anymore of her time, Ive done that enough and I know that she isn't going to sit around and take the role of second fiddle anymore either. Just as an FYI, she and I do speak about the OW, we talk about what happened, and some of my feelings, both past and present, as well. Not an easy thing to do or for her to hear but it's therapeutic at times. Well, if you do love your W and know you want to share your life with her, I wish you two the best. Everything you do now is building your new future together. LG wondered if you were in IC. Whatever made you decide to lie and betray could happen again if you don't really change. Right now you may think you won't cheat again, but you probably felt that way earlier in your M too. You don't want to put yourself, your W and your child (as well as the other person or family your betrayal affects) through that again, so best to do whatever you can to learn why it happened and how you are going to make better choices.
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