Women, do you expect love to just happen to you?

[kaylan]

The below quote is from this thread. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=311778

 

It inspired me to create this thread we have here. What I am going to say is directed at women and this thread is NOT meant for guys to come in arguing with them, nor speaking for women.

 

I liked some guys , we hung out they said I'm pretty , funny etc then when they realized that I liked them I got the " I think you're great but .. " my boyfriend dumped me not too long ago , I gave up dating sites as the ones I liked didn't bother , I'd never approach a guy as I don't want to get rejected I'm way too insecure . I've only had one boyfriend and I'm 27 due to fear of rejection . So far only one guy felt the same about me .

 

Ok, buttercup. The reason I did not quote this and reply in the other thread, is because I did not want to derail another posters thread. Plus I felt your feelings warranted a discussion.

Women, do you expect love to just happen to you? Look I understand social conventions have things set up so men are the ones who initiate things with women. I understand that because you gals are not used to rejection and being the assertive ones, that you are insecure and scared to go up to guys. I also understand that getting rejected sucks and makes one less apt to initiate with the opposite sex. But how do you ever expect to find the right person if you dont take control of your own life?

 

I could not imagine being someone who simply waited for potential partners to find me. Id be wondering what I was missing out in life by not trying to get with the people who I am attracted to. Id always wonder that maybe things would have went the way I wanted them to, had I just talked to the person and put myself out there. Why not grab the reins ladies?

 

Of course this is not all women, but it sure is most of you who wont actively pursue a guy youre interested in. Rejection sucks, but I feel "what ifs" and possible regrets are event worse. Ladies, ladies....I know what you told me before...."he must not be interested if he didnt come talk to me or ask me out"....or "I like a man that knows what he wants..confidence is attractive" To those excuses I have these responses.

 

Firstly, just because a guy gets a little stage fright does not mean he isnt into you. For all you know he could be insanely interested in you and could have something holding him back. Be it fear of rejection, or maybe he isnt wearing his best gear and wants to look more presentable when he makes his move, or whatever else.

 

Secondly, guys like a woman who knows what she wants as well. It would make us feel super awesome and attractive to have a girl we dig to actually put the moves on us. It feels great. Sometimes the "a confident man knows what he wants" excuse is used by someone trying to deflect their feeling of rejection elsewhere. Sometimes a guy may need to see more of who you are to know exactly what he wants. Sometimes a guy is simply not on the prowl eyeballing potential mates. It doesnt mean hes not open to you and that you couldnt be someone hed love to know. He may just be unaware

 

Sometimes we need to be made aware of your existence. We cant notice everyone we are in proximity to in our everyday lives. Its quite possible that I missed seeing you walk by in the park the past few times I was there even though you noticed me. But we cant meet unless you do something about it, since you spotted me first. These are just little possibilities.

 

Im really trying to understand how some women find guys who they click with. I know some of you cannot expect guys to fall in your lap all the time. Do you at least shoot a guy signals and make it obvious you want him when you become smitten? Remember that with some of us, you reeaally need to make it obvious or it may fly over our head. Its just that with some of the things ive read and heard from women, it would seem some of you would rather deal with the "what ifs" and let something pass you by, instead of wo-maning up and grabbing what you want.

 

Does that bother you though, that maybe that person you let slip by could have been amazing for you, but you were too scared to control your own life? I feel there is no such thing as fate. There is free will and choices to be made.

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 6, 2012 by kaylan

[Buttercup84]

Hey Kaylan ,

 

I think because all these books etc tell us if a guy does not go after us he is " not that into you " and I am worried that I will always have to do the chasing in the relationship .

 

I have been with guys where I made the most effort , asking them out to go for dinner ( I paid ) and texting them . Didn't work out for me .

 

My ex chased me a bit as it was my first relationship and I was a bit scared .

 

But I did say I love you first and texted him right after he dropped me home on our first date .

 

I do want to find love again but don't want it to happen by looking for it every day . I met each guy by chance when I wasn't bothered .

 

Let's say I liked a guy who is a friend of a friend , I would only go after him and make the first move if I got all the signals that he is attracted to me . I am just too afraid of rejection .

 

I would just wonder if he said yes because he didn't want to hurt my feelings.

[Emilia]

I think if you read the threads on LS you will see how women are branded as sluts very easily. Personally, that isn't something that worries me because I only date men who are able to make up their own mind but younger girls or those that come from smaller towns with tighter communities probably do care.

 

Unless a woman is confident in her own worth, it's hard for her to express assertiveness and be confident that she is on the middle road between too eager and passive. We are not encouraged by our parents nor by the way we are socialised generally to take the reins as it were.

 

I'm lucky because I lived outside Western society for a while where I had to rely on myself 100% and as a result I realise how much BS a lot of these rules are but most women will never have this chance. Partly, because we get told on a daily basis that we just can't do stuff because 'we are girls'

 

Hope this helps to explain why so many women lack confidence. You can preach as much as you like about taking charge but when we are constantly being told that it's a masculine treat and women are supposed to be feminine, it's not really helping. Blame the fathers, they are the ones that bring up the daughters as daddy's girls.

[jobaba]

Interestingly enough, I had this discussion with a woman who rejected me recently. She was talking to me about Guy A and said flat out, "Guy A is cute. I'd go out with Guy A." So I told her she should ask him out. She said, "No way. He's gotta make the first move." although she did flirt with him heavily. This was all before I developed feelings for her and of course she felt comfortable discussing it with me because she had no interest.

 

Later on, I talked to Guy A about it and told him he should go for it. His response was a pretty earnest, "Maybe. I'll think about it."

 

I never told him she was into him per se, so if he didn't have to do the heavy work, he'd probably have been down with it. She had a chance to snag the handsome, good looking dude she was looking for. And to be honest, since I also knew Guy A, I'll admit, he was a pretty nice guy.

 

I'll also mention that the woman in question said "Yada, yada, yada ... that's why no guys like me" even as she rejected me. What she meant to say is "No guys I LIKE like me."

 

So I agree with Kaylan. If you know what you like, have the guts at least to chase after it and face rejection just like the guys you turn down.

Edited January 6, 2012 by jobaba

[somedude81]

Posted by a woman

 

Has anyone has the Hollywood fairytale relationship?

 

Should tell you what they expect.

[Els]

Briefly:

 

1) Some men think less of a woman, or put in less effort, if the woman were to pursue him. Slightly counterintuitive, and very self-sabotaging, but true in many instances. Being the pursuer is associated with aggressiveness and masculinity. As Emilia said, many men find this unattractive.

 

2) IMO many women do put in effort - just in different ways. If you look at all the threads in which women complain that they are not getting men, the most common advice given to them is - work harder on your appearance. Whereas the most common advice given to men is to ask more women out. Certainly both of these advice have been proven to work - quantitatively, that is. Women over the years have realized that, based on men's reactions, the best way to get quantitatively more attention from men is to.. look hot, not to ask out lots of men. This results in women putting in, on average, several times more effort and time in their appearance than men do, and in men pursuing more than women do. It's just the way society works.

[norajane]

so if he didn't have to do the heavy work, he'd probably have been down with it.

 

In my experience, yes, guys will take what you offer on a silver platter, but not because they really liked you, but just because you offered it. And it just won't work in the long run because they were never that interested to begin with, or they would have done something about it themselves.

 

If he's not willing to do the "heavy work" as you put it, he's not interested enough for a relationship to work out even though he'd go on a date if she asked. Women know this and don't waste their time. Instead, they do what women have always done - they meet a guy they like and they flirt and primp and dress up and flirt some more until he notices her...and asks her out if he likes her.

[fortyninethousand322]

In my experience, yes, guys will take what you offer on a silver platter, but not because they really liked you, but just because you offered it. And it just won't work in the long run because they were never that interested to begin with, or they would have done something about it themselves.

 

If he's not willing to do the "heavy work" as you put it, he's not interested enough for a relationship to work out even though he'd go on a date if she asked. Women know this and don't waste their time. Instead, they do what women have always done - they meet a guy they like and they flirt and primp and dress up and flirt some more until he notices her...and asks her out if he likes her.

 

So in other words, if a guy is too shy to approach or is worried about being rejected, he's doomed.

[thatone]

So in other words, if a guy is too shy to approach or is worried about being rejected, he's doomed.

 

not just doomed with women, doomed to a lesser life in general.

 

if you can't simply walk up to a stranger and talk to them what are you going to do? unabomber lifestyle?

[fortyninethousand322]

not just doomed with women, doomed to a lesser life in general.

 

if you can't simply walk up to a stranger and talk to them what are you going to do? unabomber lifestyle?

 

Um...I think being able to talk to random strangers with no emotional investment (which I can do easily) is totally different from waking up to a random strange woman to whom I might be attracted to physically or intellectually or what have you. Random platonic strangers are happy to shoot the crap with any ole person while women want men to excite them sexually or whatever.

[verhrzn]

Um...I think being able to talk to random strangers with no emotional investment (which I can do easily) is totally different from waking up to a random strange woman to whom I might be attracted to physically or intellectually or what have you. Random platonic strangers are happy to shoot the crap with any ole person while women want men to excite them sexually or whatever.

 

I have no idea where guys get some of these ideas. Do you honestly think I'm walking around thinking inside my head," GOD, why isn't this random stranger exciting me sexually?"

 

NO. If a stranger talks to me, I smile and talk back. That's it. I really don't have much thought beyond," Be polite." It's only if he starts to flirt or ask for my number I would think," Hmm, do I see something in him that is attractive?"

 

You are putting WAY too much emphasis on the emotional investment of strangers.

[fortyninethousand322]

I have no idea where guys get some of these ideas. Do you honestly think I'm walking around thinking inside my head," GOD, why isn't this random stranger exciting me sexually?"

 

NO. If a stranger talks to me, I smile and talk back. That's it. I really don't have much thought beyond," Be polite." It's only if he starts to flirt or ask for my number I would think," Hmm, do I see something in him that is attractive?"

 

You are putting WAY too much emphasis on the emotional investment of strangers.

 

That's basically what I'm saying. I can talk to girls all the time, you know the whole "hey how are you" sort of thing. But, going from there to "hey, do you want to have dinner with me" is a huge step that I have no clue how to get to.

 

It's not that I think you walk around thinking that about random strangers, but, I do think you'd prefer not to be approached by guys you don't like, even if just for petty conversation. Most women find that creepy.

[snug.bunny]

I think in the back of our minds, yes, we tend to.

 

Probably because it's a notion that was engrained in us as little girls and growing up. Also, a lot of the programs girls watched growing up had some version of a "Prince Charming" (Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella...). At some point, as we grow older, we come to realize that that notion is nothing more than a fairytale. Whether we accept it or not though, is a different story. Heehee.

 

Nonetheless, I think women do try to take control of their love life but most of the time it's just in different ways as opposed to how men do it. I've suggested going out with a couple of guys in the past, but there was already some level of rapport established. You won't really find a lot of women who will just randomly go up to a guy she doesn't know and ask him out. Not that there aren't women who have done/do that, but I don't think it's the norm. She'll usually flirt with him and try to send out signals for him to pick-up on/respond to or try to get to know him better. Or, the more direct men will just approach her with or without any of that and at which point she'll either reciprocate, or she won't.

[Quiet Storm]

I think many women do expect love just to happen to them, but it's not really their fault.

 

As little girls, we were bombarded with Disney movies and romantic stories, making it seem like all we have to do is look pretty and wonderful, handsome, successful men will be available, waiting to pick us.

 

Many people raised in the 90s had parents that were on the "build your kid's self esteem" kick and have a false sense of entitlement. Many women (and men) feel that they deserve love, and don't do anything to foster that. They just expect everyone to notice what a great catch they are.

 

Men of the younger generation aren't as eager to marry or enter a long term relationship. With porn at their fingertips, that primal hunger that prompts them to have sex and see naked chicks can be fed with a few clicks. Many men are seeing women as a liability, and not a benefit. Many are children of divorce, and see women as dramatic and sneaky and greedy...and just don't see a long term relationship as worth it. They look back on the years their parents were fighting, and just don't see love as a positive thing. They fill their lives with things they enjoy, and don't have that need for love and companionship.

 

Many women are willing to f-buddies or FWB, so men can often meet their sex and companionship needs with those women, who don't require a commitment.

 

So you have many women that are looking for love, and many men that are looking for sex or a casual relationship. These women end up hurt and jaded when the men lose interest, and it dents their self esteem. So they don't usually have the confidence to approach men and flirt, but at the same time feel worthy of a good man.

 

It's hard for me to give advice to these women, because 20 years ago, when I was in HS, I (and other women) never had to be the aggressor. I had men pursuing me left and right. They didn't have porn available at their fingertips yet. It was either watch Skinemax to see naked chicks or find one in real life. Yeah, most were just trying to get in my pants, but my husband was one of those pursuers. We fell in love and have been together ever since.

 

I understand how these women feel, though, because it doesn't feel natural to me to be the pursuer. Even after being married for many years, I love when my husband pursues me for sex. It makes me feel very wanted, which really ignites the passionate part of me. I do initiate because I know he loves to feel wanted too, but to be honest, it doesn't come naturally to me and is out of my comfort zone. So many women may be like me, and just not naturally aggressive.

 

The dynamic has changed. Men don't need women as much anymore. Marriage isn't always viewed as a positive beginning, but as a dead end. The men that feel this way don't pursue. Many men that don't have "game" get rejected so much that they stop trying. This means that the men that do pursue, are often players....who will end up rejecting these women and denting their self esteem, which makes them less likely to pursue and leaves them jaded about men.

 

I would say that women should send out signals to men that they are interested in (but not player types), smiling at them, starting conversations, touching their arm when they talk, brush the lint from their shoulder...subtle things that will make them know she is interested and ignite his desire to pursue. They should't just come out and say "Will you go out with me?" because the rejection will hurt, but they should send enough signals so that he will act if he is interested. She needs to put herself in his space, in his line of vision...so that he can smell her phermomes. The good men, that don't have much game, will pick up on her signals and take a chance because her interest means they are less likely to be rejected.

 

The bottom line is that life is not a fairy tale. Waiting for someone to pick you means you might not get picked.

[allina]

Yes. I have not and would not pursue, chase, or ask a man out.

 

I don't care about rejection I just think that the man should be the pursuer. I want a man that takes charge and isn't afraid to go after what he wants. Of course I'll give signals to a guy letting him know that I'm interested but I won't pursue.

 

Honestly, why would I?

[bean1]

Most (the vast majority) of women are afraid to approach men because they don't know the difference between pursuing a man who isn't interested in a relationship but will take advantage of their interest sexually - and taking the lead with a man who might be too shy to act first but is genuinely interested.

 

You'll notice a lot of men who like older women will often mention that those women "know what they want/aren't shy/don't play games as often" etc. that is because with experience, older women tend to not be afraid of confusing pursuit and taking an active lead.

 

I hope that makes sense. When I was 20 and single/no long-term relationship experience, I would not have known the difference. Now, at almost 30 and married, I have enough experience to know what I would want/how to get it. Of course, now, I would have baggage so you're damned either way

 

Responses here from other women sort of confirm to me my belief. There is a difference between pursuit and actively taking the lead, IMO. One involves chasing, one involves a slight nudge to give a man the "green light" that it is OKAY to open up to you if interested. One means calling and trying to set up a date when he's "busy", one means being first to ask if he wants to grab a coffee.

Edited January 6, 2012 by bean1

[thatone]

I have no idea where guys get some of these ideas. Do you honestly think I'm walking around thinking inside my head," GOD, why isn't this random stranger exciting me sexually?"

 

NO. If a stranger talks to me, I smile and talk back. That's it. I really don't have much thought beyond," Be polite." It's only if he starts to flirt or ask for my number I would think," Hmm, do I see something in him that is attractive?"

 

You are putting WAY too much emphasis on the emotional investment of strangers.

 

yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

i have never used a pickup line or any other such thing. i make conversation. if the conversation goes well and she looks interested i'll ask for a phone number, that's it. it's not rocket science.

[Imajerk17]

In my experience, yes, guys will take what you offer on a silver platter, but not because they really liked you, but just because you offered it. And it just won't work in the long run because they were never that interested to begin with, or they would have done something about it themselves.

 

If he's not willing to do the "heavy work" as you put it, he's not interested enough for a relationship to work out even though he'd go on a date if she asked. Women know this and don't waste their time. Instead, they do what women have always done - they meet a guy they like and they flirt and primp and dress up and flirt some more until he notices her...and asks her out if he likes her.

 

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.... So going by your line of reasoning, does that mean that Person 1 (ignore gender for a moment) asks Person 2 out, then Person 2 was "never that interested to begin with"? Or does that mean that women have an entitlement mentality, and don't feel they should have to deal with rejection? I mean, GUYS ask women out, and we have no idea if she is really interested in us, or if she is just going on a date because we asked. [Yes, about every guy far as I know has taken a woman out who didn't seem that interested.]

 

Hmmm...

 

I am fine with making the first move, on the one hand. BUT on the other hand, there is a sense of feminine entitlement that you shouldn't have to deal with rejection.

 

(Just saying. Don't call me "bitter" or anything for pointing this out.)

Edited January 6, 2012 by Imajerk17

[thatone]

Most (the vast majority) of women are afraid to approach men because they don't know the difference between pursuing a man who isn't interested in a relationship but will take advantage of their interest sexually - and taking the lead with a man who might be too shy to act first but is genuinely interested.

 

You'll notice a lot of men who like older women will often mention that those women "know what they want/aren't shy/don't play games as often" etc. that is because with experience, older women tend to not be afraid of confusing pursuit and taking an active lead.

 

I hope that makes sense. When I was 20 and single/no long-term relationship experience, I would not have known the difference. Now, at almost 30 and married, I have enough experience to know what I would want/how to get it. Of course, now, I would have baggage so you're damned either way

 

Responses here from other women sort of confirm to me my belief. There is a difference between pursuit and actively taking the lead, IMO. One involves chasing, one involves a slight nudge to give a man the "green light" that it is OKAY to open up to you if interested. One means calling and trying to set up a date when he's "busy", one means being first to ask if he wants to grab a coffee.

 

the above is true as well. it doesn't just apply to young men, well i guess young is relative. but i had a perfect example of that last week.

 

two women sitting at my neighborhood bar, i was talking to both, and the young one was admittedly smoking hot, but shy and quiet, generally. she would light up a bit and take deep breaths when i gave her a compliment here and there but that was it. the older one in her 40s (i'm 35) was not shy by any means. she played her part to perfection. the older one got the call the next day. could i have chased the hot young one? probably, but older women are better in bed anyways .

[Imajerk17]

Quiet Storm--a well-thought out post.

 

Men not wanting relationships. Well, there is IME an interesting cycle going on in dating.

 

There are a lot of guys out there who have a lot going for them--successful career, good communication skills, even good looks, but for the life of them, can't seem to get a woman really interested in them. They go on first dates that seemed to go well from their end, and then when they call the woman for a second date, they get the "you're a nice guy but no chemistry" line. IF she even has the courtesy to get back to him that is. To these guys, women are a mystery, have crazy standards, they have the bar set impossibly high--these guys did everything they were "supposed to do" and the women still aren't interested! What does it take!

 

These women, in turn, tend to be getting stuck on guys who aren't that good for them. They keep "hanging out with" (sex but no "date" per se) who are in no hurry to give a commitment and who don't even seem to have their lives in order.

 

And so you will hear these women lament about "where are the good guys".

 

Now there are many many exceptions to the above no doubt. There are lots of healthy relationships out there. BUT there is another side to the story of "why men nowadays don't want to commit". Given that great post you wrote yesterday, I think you get this already.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Imajerk17

[Imajerk17]

the above is true as well. it doesn't just apply to young men, well i guess young is relative. but i had a perfect example of that last week.

 

two women sitting at my neighborhood bar, i was talking to both, and the young one was admittedly smoking hot, but shy and quiet, generally. she would light up a bit and take deep breaths when i gave her a compliment here and there but that was it. the older one in her 40s (i'm 35) was not shy by any means. she played her part to perfection. the older one got the call the next day. could i have chased the hot young one? probably, but older women are better in bed anyways .

 

Something happened to me a long time ago. The cashier--average build, too young for me (I was in graduate school and she was maybe a sophomore in college), not "my type", and so on. But when I went through her register--holy shiat! Did she know how to flirt, and because she took so much initiative, I was floored. I asked for her number.

[thatone]

Something happened to me a long time ago. The cashier--average build, too young for me (I was in graduate school and she was maybe a sophomore in college), not "my type", and so on. But when I went through her register--holy shiat! Did she know how to flirt, and because she took so much initiative, I was floored. I asked for her number.

 

yep, confidence in women is just as attractive to men as confidence in men is attractive to women.

 

sadly most women are able to justify their complete lack of it to themselves.

[somedude81]

Quiet Storm--a well-thought out post.

 

Men not wanting relationships. Well, there is IME an interesting cycle going on in dating.

 

There are a lot of guys out there who have a lot going for them--successful career, good communication skills, even good looks, but for the life of them, can't seem to get a woman really interested in them. They go on first dates that seemed to go well from their end, and then when they call the woman for a second date, they get the "you're a nice guy but no chemistry" line. IF she even has the courtesy to get back to him that is. To these guys, women are a mystery, have crazy standards, they have the bar set impossibly high--these guys did everything they were "supposed to do" and the women still aren't interested! What does it take!

 

These women, in turn, tend to be getting stuck on guys who aren't that good for them. They keep "hanging out with" (sex but no "date" per se) who are in no hurry to give a commitment and who don't even seem to have their lives in order.

 

And so you will hear these women lament about "where are the good guys".

 

Now there are many many exceptions to the above no doubt. There are lots of healthy relationships out there. BUT there is another side to the story of "why men nowadays don't want to commit". Given that great post you wrote yesterday, I think you get this already.

Story of my life.

 

Instead of waiting for the prince, most women seem to want the guy who looks like he could be a prince, but is actually the villain.

[Nikki Sahagin]

To be honest - yes.

 

 

But i'm pretty passive in love and not a 'go getter'.

So until I change that attitude, I stick with the 'love will just happen'.

I'm not confident in relationships and love so I don't seek it out and make it happen for myself.

[Feelsgoodman]

I have been with guys where I made the most effort , asking them out to go for dinner ( I paid ) and texting them . Didn't work out for me .

And what does that prove, exactly? That women shouldn't initiate? I've been with girls where I made the most effort, asked them out, paid for dinner/drinks and it didn't work out. And so has every other man in the world...more than once, I'm sure. Does that mean that men shouldn't initiate either? If neither man nor women were willing to risk rejection and initiate, who would be doing it???

 

Despite the changing social dynamics of the past 50 years, women are still enjoying an unfair privilege in the dating scene. It is commonly accepted that men are supposed to make the first move. This social convention is not rooted in any kind of solid logic but rather in stupid and outdated stereotypes such as that men are "hunters" who supposedly enjoy the "chase". Of course, this is nothing more than women rationalizing their own advantageous/risk averse position, but somehow men have been fooled into believing that this is the natural state of things.