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Men have the upper hand in relationships.


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Posted

Just read this and am interested in what others think.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2011/02/sex_is_cheap.html

 

Personally, I think it's true. While I do know a few guys that allow the woman to control their relationships and are much more passive and relationship-oriented, the majority of males I've known control their relationships. They are often romantic and kind enough to get 'in' with the girl and then after that it's either issue after issue with the guy being disrespectful, unappreciative, or just blah, or perhaps it's my male friend who loses interest or doesn't feel the need to show appreciation because 'there are always more women out there'. Men seem to end relationships more than the women do, and the relationship only seems to move forward when the man wants it to. This is just how it seems to be from my end, wondering what others think.

Posted

Lots of men are opting out of the traditional relationship/marriage uneven field. They see one small group of men having lots of NSA sex with women willing to share the man with other women so long as it isn't put in her face that obviously, then they see the suckers who do try to do things the traditional way in a world where women have ordained they aren't obligated to reciprocate in any traditional ways whatsoever. They then take steps to get into or close to the few players who get all the action with no obligation. I don't think this phenomenon qualifies as men having the upper hand in relationship, and think it makes losers of us all in the end. As far as the article goes, I agree with the first page of comments to the article much more than the article itself.

Posted

But this kind of situation is a runaround deal- women are becoming more aware of the " bootie call". If this was still the 90s, in a world without internet, I doubt most would realize they're being played.

 

That's why women are smarting up and taking the reins more.

  • Author
Posted

I think that's the point exactly. Women are being played by guys who know how to do it. I don't know many women who are content with being a booty call, they all want stable relationships.

 

I agree that there are some women who don't want to fill 'traditional roles' but I think that's something every couple must work out. If a woman is working full time then she shouldn't be expected to be a fulltime cook, housewife, mother, sex machine. It's simply too much. It's reasonable for a man to contribute to the household as an equal partner. I also think that if one person isn't working, they should take up the slack - for instance if you don't want your wife to work or you yourself are not working, then the majority of the household work should rest on someone not working.

 

I think it is important to note that while times are changing, women are STILL growing up in a culture where they are expected to fill traditional roles, although it has lessened. They do feel pressure to be the housewife and also work. I think it's possible to find lots of women who want to stay at home and be a 'traditional wife' but a lot of men don't want that. They want someone who works 2 jobs (career and homemaker) while they work one. If you want a traditional woman, be ready to be the traditional man.

Posted

that expectation to fill traditional roles does not only apply to women.

 

do women approach men? for the most part, no.

do women plan and pay for dates? almost never.

do women 'chase' men? again for the most part, no.

 

so the answer is women don't get to have their cake and eat it too. you want men to approach you, you want men to take initiative in dating, you want men to be the one who pursues you? that's fine.

 

but when women respond to that by shrugging off their 'traditional' roles then those women get turned into booty calls and backup plans.

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Posted

I kind of agree with you on that. I think that the issue is that instead of a guy meeting a girl and wanting to get to know her and actively pursuing her for a relationship, a lot of guys are mainly focused on just getting laid that night. If a woman doesn't warm up to the idea they are onto the next girl. So if you are a girl and a guy approaches you and seems like he just wants sex, the idea is that if she turns him down, he will move on and she loses her chance. However, if she agrees to it he will stick around, get to know her more as a person, and might like her enough to actually want to date her. A lot of women have sex before they are ready for this reason.

 

A lot of women seem to find men to date at work, through friends, or through hobbies and NOT bars because guys doing these other activities are not going there to hook up - the focus is different. Men who go to bars are mostly looking for the hookup. I'm not going to say women are justified because certainly every woman is capable of demanding something better. But it's a two-way street. If the majority of guys weren't just out for sex when they go out, then there wouldn't be as much pressure to provide that or get lost. It sucks because there are some people out there genuinely looking for connection.

Posted

because those men know that the only thing that will guarantee that those women will be around a month from now is sexual attachment.

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Posted

I honestly don't know a SINGLE girl who dates a guy only for the sex. In most cases I have seen and experienced with my many female friends, they all want something more than sex and wouldn't stick around using sex as the reason. That's a lot more common with my male friends. I've heard many, many times that the reason they haven't broken up with a girl they don't like anymore is because 'the sex is good'. Or that might be a reason to date someone in the first place, for the sex.

 

Sex is all well and good but it's the emotional intimacy that women crave, not sex. And that's exactly what you DON'T get from the guys who only want to get laid.

Posted
Civilization is built on blocked, redirected, and channeled sexual impulse, because men will work for sex. Today's young men, however, seldom have to. As the authors of last year's book Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality put it, "Societies in which women have lots of autonomy and authority tend to be decidedly male-friendly, relaxed, tolerant, and plenty sexy." They're right. But then try getting men to do anything.

So true. One thing I am learning lately is that whatever they might say, men actually do want women to make them work for it. A man wants a woman who will inspire his best and not reward him for half-hearted effort. If you do that, it kills his drive to achieve. But make him work for it, and out comes all his best. And then he's all fired up like a bull and will do you right. It's like night and day.

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Posted

I agree Ruby Slippers. One reason that women wait for men to approach them is because although a lot of guys don't mind it, most seem to appreciate women they had to work for. In fact the guys I don't want to date and put off end up being the ones who try the hardest to try to change my mind. The guys that I was available for always ended up not appreciating me and we always broke up.

Posted

So sick of untalented analysts writing what they think their public wants to hear in order to attract visitors to a website or sell a ****ing book.

 

Relationships have been asymetrical since the existence of sexual reproduction. Of course they change if the environment changes, but comparing them to their previous situation where they are seen as ideal is bs.

Posted

If you allow others to control you rather than assert your boundaries and make clear what you accept and what you don't, then sure they will have the upper hand over you.

 

I am older and more confident than most women in their 20s and certainly don't put up with much c**p, I'm also much fussier now when it comes to picking a long term mate and I know much sooner whether we mesh. It's about experience and boundaries. Not rocket science.

Posted

Women are just as responsible for the booty call culture as men are. Also 70% of divorces are initiated by women so it is not men who end most relationships. This is the kind of world that many women say they wanted and now that they have it they are unhappy.

 

I am all for women having sexual freedom but don't blame men when it is not as thrilling or liberating as it is made out to be. Own your own choices.

Posted

65% of married women have had extra marital affairs.

 

For booty call to happen it takes two. Shocking news, some women want NSA sex too.

  • Author
Posted

Woggle, I can believe that 70 percent of women initiate divorces. I agree that most women I know who have had them, initiated them. However, there was spousal abuse, the man had an affair, they were both out of love, treated each other terribly...I would say that initiating the divorce is not an indicator of it being the woman who wants out, but a lot of the time it is a woman realizing it's not a good situation that is caused by her, both of them, or the man. That men don't tend to initiate could have as much to do as not wanting to split assets as anything else.

 

Fishtaco, I'm not disagreeing with you but I'd be interested in where you got that 65% statistic. Actually, a lot of my experience has been in the dating world so I'm not sure how it translates to marriage. However, it's usually been the guy actively pursuing women, whether he is in the relationship and wants to have an affair, or he's pursuing someone else in a relationship and encourages her to stray. So I guess what I am saying is that a lot of men seem to take a very light attitude to commitment. I am definitely NOT saying that women don't cheat - they certainly do. Women and men both want to be appreciated. When they aren't getting that and someone else is providing it, they often stray.

 

It could be that I don't have the experience of the entire situation. I've been cheated on (emotional affair that may have been physical - don't know), and I have had many, MANY requests by guys in relationships to fool around. On the other hand, I know of one woman in all my friendships who has cheated in either her marriage or serious relationship. Of course they could also not be telling me, but those things tend to come out. I hear of and see more 'other women' situations than the woman in the relationship actually having the affair.

  • Author
Posted

Woggle, I can believe that 70 percent of women initiate divorces. I agree that most women I know who have had them, initiated them. However, there was spousal abuse, the man had an affair, they were both out of love, treated each other terribly...I would say that initiating the divorce is not an indicator of it being the woman who wants out, but a lot of the time it is a woman realizing it's not a good situation that is caused by her, both of them, or the man. That men don't tend to initiate could have as much to do as not wanting to split assets as anything else.

 

Fishtaco, I'm not disagreeing with you but I'd be interested in where you got that 65% statistic. Actually, a lot of my experience has been in the dating world so I'm not sure how it translates to marriage. However, it's usually been the guy actively pursuing women, whether he is in the relationship and wants to have an affair, or he's pursuing someone else in a relationship and encourages her to stray. So I guess what I am saying is that a lot of men seem to take a very light attitude to commitment. I am definitely NOT saying that women don't cheat - they certainly do. Women and men both want to be appreciated. When they aren't getting that and someone else is providing it, they often stray.

 

It could be that I don't have the experience of the entire situation. I've been cheated on (emotional affair that may have been physical - don't know), and I have had many, MANY requests by guys in relationships to fool around. Many of my male friends have cheated on their serious girlfriends at some point. On the other hand, I know of one woman in all my friendships who has cheated in either her marriage or serious relationship. Of course they could also not be telling me, but those things tend to come out. I hear of and see more 'other women' situations than the woman in the relationship actually having the affair.

  • Author
Posted

Ah, I did find this FishTaco:

 

"In fact, the rate of cheating has stayed pretty consistent, according to research expert Tom W. Smith, director of the General Social Survey for the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.

Smith conducted the highly respected study “American Sexual Behavior,” a poll of 10,000 people over two decades. The study found that 22 percent of married men and 15 percent of married women have cheated at least once."

Posted
Ah, I did find this FishTaco:

"In fact, the rate of cheating has stayed pretty consistent, according to research expert Tom W. Smith, director of the General Social Survey for the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.

Smith conducted the highly respected study “American Sexual Behavior,” a poll of 10,000 people over two decades. The study found that 22 percent of married men and 15 percent of married women have cheated at least once."

 

We can't rely on statistics based on polls. It has been proven on several occasions that women are rarely truthful... which is why there is such a wide disparity between the reported number of sex partners on average between the men and women.

 

FishTaco was quoting the American Counseling Association, which reported 65% of the infidelity they dealt with was female cheating.

 

We don't really know what the real statistics are... what we can say for sure is that the percentage of women cheating has risen dramatically over the last 15 years. Most seem to believe the sexes cheat at equal rates or with men just slightly ahead.

 

Fact is though... the guys out cheating are heavily skewed towards the rich, famous, successful... ect. The women out cheating are not married to those successful guys, they married average guys.

Posted

So true. One thing I am learning lately is that whatever they might say, men actually do want women to make them work for it. A man wants a woman who will inspire his best and not reward him for half-hearted effort. If you do that, it kills his drive to achieve. But make him work for it, and out comes all his best. And then he's all fired up like a bull and will do you right. It's like night and day.

 

@ Rubbyslippers

LOL :):):) What issue of Cosmo the you read that from, pray tell. A mans drive to achieve in a relationship or anything else in life depends on his individual character not how well you can string him along.

 

 

that expectation to fill traditional roles does not only apply to women.

 

do women approach men? for the most part, NO.

do women plan and pay for dates? ALMOST NEVER.

do women 'chase' men? again for the most part, NO.

 

so the answer is women don't get to have their cake and eat it too. you want men to approach you, you want men to take initiative in dating, you want men to be the one who pursues you? that's fine.

 

but when women respond to that by shrugging off their 'traditional' roles then those women get turned into booty calls and backup plans.

 

Thanks Thatone , You hit the target with this post.

  • Author
Posted

Untouchable Fire, you pretty much said what I quoted; that the ratio of men and women cheating are similar, with men slightly higher but women catching up. As to being skewed towards rich successful men, um, I beg to differ. I know a ton of men who cheat and have cheated and they are average joes. I think that PEOPLE in general cheat more the more successful and rich they are - men and women both - but you don't get away with acting like the average men don't cheat while the average woman does. That is pure, biased bull*****. If you want something like THAT to be believable, please cite a reputable study or two.

Posted

The article is interesting, but it lacks a few important points. First, the article talks largely about SUCCESSFUL men. The Manhattan example given and the fact that the article talks about college boyfriends is evidence of this. They completely overlooking all men without at least a college degree. Then you remove the number of overweight or unattractive successful men (the nerds) and you get a much smaller population to date. The attractive, educated, socially adept man is becoming a rarer commodity. Many of these women choose to be single over settling for a man with less education, a smaller income, etc. Rather they go into competition for the good looking man with the great career (making not so perfect guy the fwb or casual hookup). Meanwhile, Mr, great has so many options that he feels no need to settle down until he finds everything he is looking for or the options start to cool down. That is life. Women wanted the sexual revolution and got it, as result the fewer successful men get to choose between multiple females the way a beautiful woman may have had many suitors in more traditional times.

Posted

I'm going to say to you, OP, the same thing I say to men who complain about 'women making them pay for dates etc': The only way such things affect you is if you let them. If you know you're better than the booty call culture, don't play that game. It is your choice whether or not to be a booty call. Your choice which man to let into your life: the suave player or the genuine good guy.

 

I have never had trouble finding decent men. Sure, the bad apples are plentiful, but that does not mean that good men do not exist.

Posted

Huh?

 

Am I just not living on the same planet as everybody else?

Posted (edited)

I agree with Ruby Slippers. Her post reminds me of a book I read recently, 'Why Men Marry Bitches'. The title seems rather misleading; the book is a gem. It basically helps women learn how to not reward half-hearted and/or bad behavior from men they're involved with. Valuing themselves so that men will value them. For example, the book mentions negative/annoying things a guy will do to get attention from his girlfriend (flirting with another girl at a party, etc). If she reacts in a very emotional, insecure way, the guy knows she cares and he knows he can continue to engage in that bad behavior and get away with it. If, however, she is rational or doesn't react at all, she's demonstrating that she values herself. Her actions say "This s*it you're pulling is beneath me. Come back around when you're ready to act right."

 

Basically, people in general respect and put in real effort for those who don't tolerate bulls*it behavior.

Edited by tigressA
Posted (edited)
Lots of men are opting out of the traditional relationship/marriage uneven field. They see one small group of men having lots of NSA sex with women willing to share the man with other women so long as it isn't put in her face that obviously, then they see the suckers who do try to do things the traditional way in a world where women have ordained they aren't obligated to reciprocate in any traditional ways whatsoever. They then take steps to get into or close to the few players who get all the action with no obligation. I don't think this phenomenon qualifies as men having the upper hand in relationship, and think it makes losers of us all in the end. As far as the article goes, I agree with the first page of comments to the article much more than the article itself.

 

Great post. It's why if you ask either gender who has "the upper hand" in dating, they will both say the other. And they both have a point. A man will complain about how he took a woman out for a nice "traditional" date and she doesn't want to go on a second date--something about "The Chemistry" or something--or she outright just disappears and doesn't even have the courtesy to get back to him--happens all too often. While said woman will complain about how she hooked up with another guy at the bar who doesn't seem into a relationship with her. (Yes, overgeneralization alert.)

 

So guess what ends up happening--man who used to take women out for those traditional dates realizes that he is getting fleeced and starts rethinking his strategy. He quite understandably would much rather be that guy at the bar whom the woman met and hooked up with right away and now "hangs out" with--no dates required.

Edited by Imajerk17
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